OK. Say the election is between Giuliani and Clinton ... who wins?

[Kablooie]

Doesn't seem nearly as clear cut as it might be.

And what happens to the country afterwards?

[Flabbergasted]

1. .....

My cynical response right now. Who cares? There platforms are effectively identical.

[denem]

14. Federal Depts cut 10%, workforce by 20%, cut personal, corp taxes

"Win" Iraq. School vouches. Reform Schools. A long term vision 43% reduction of all Federal Employees.Yeah Thats sounds like HRC alright.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. You Forgot The Appointment Of Strict Constructionist Judges

DSB

[BlueStater]

2. I don't know

It's still too early to know how this thing will play out.

Most people still aren't familar with Rudy outside of his phony "9/11 hero/America's mayor/whatever" image.

[John Q. Citizen]

3. The Corporations win. n/t

[hfojvt]

18. the American people lose n/t

[incapsulated]

4. You are asking the wrong people

If you want to know who is going to win, history will tell you... whoever DU hates the most.

Hillary will win. Put money on it, if she gets the nomination.

[last_texas_dem]

5. I would predict that it would almost be a repeat of the 2000 election

I think Clinton would have a fair shot at most of the states Gore carried, maybe minus one or two (New Mexico, maybe?), but I think she'd be likely to carry New Hampshire because of how it has been trending recently. However, I don't think she would be able to prevail against Giuliani in Ohio, and the race might be too close for comfort in Pennsylvania (though maybe I'm not giving Pennsylvanians enough credit.) But, essentially, I think there is a good chance it would unfortunately come down to Florida as the determining factor, and I'm not sure which way it would be most likely to go.

[pnwmom]

10. There's every reason to think she could prevail in Ohio, where the

people have kicked Ken Blackwell out, and the Dems have made a strong resurgence.

But election fraud will be a concern everywhere across the country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. She's Winning In Ohio, Florida, And Pennsylvania

And she's winning in Pennsylvania by thirteen points...

[last_texas_dem]

50. I have seen many of the poll results that you cite

And if Clinton is our nominee, I will be very happy to see those results stay the same throughout the election season. However, I'm not particularly trusting of polls this far ahead of the election, largely because I remember several states in '04 that Kerry generally led in the polls through most of the election season that ended up going for * on Election Day. It just seems like states don't seem to change their voting habits too strongly from one election to the other, and I think if Giuliani would have increased strength anywhere it would be in some of the Mid-Atlantic and Midwestern swing states.

[bklyncowgirl]

59. 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 (it was all Clinton's fault)

The right wing has been setting up this story line for the past few years. Remember that ABC miniseries which pretty much blamed Bill for the rise of Osama Bin Laden.

The Clintons will of course, fight back. Bill & Hillary are not sissies but their main defense will be something like, "We tried to get Bin Laden but the Republicans had us so tied up with unfounded scandal investigations that we couldn't do what we needed to do."

What scandals? Whitewater, Travelgate, Vince Foster and of course Monica Lewinsky. Now those of us in the reality based community will say that the first three were disproved and the third inconsequential. Sorry, but if those of us in the reality based community were in the clear majority in all major swing states Al Gore or John Kerry would be President today. This will only serve to remind those in the fantasy based community what they hate about Hillary Clinton.

".....If that was MY husband....." There goes the soccer mom vote! We already lost the security moms.

The Clintons of course will point out that George Bush ignored their warnings and that 9/11 could have been stopped. Rudy will point out that he is not George Bush. He is the man who was THERE, America's Mayor, on the streets of his city, leading, comforting and SAVING LIVES!. Members of the reality based community will point out that Rudy was on the streets because he, against the advice of his experts, put his emergency command post under the World Trade Center. It won't matter. Rudy has the pictures to prove his heroism. Imagine the campaign ads they're going to make. Giuliani running through the smoke with the tower collapsing behind me saying "Follow me" (actually I think it was "Come with us" but nevertheless it will make for some compelling 30 footage.)

The Democrats will have the more intellectually compelling argument, the Republicans the more emotionally riveting. In a sane country intellect trumps emotion. In America in 2008?

Hillary's ever shifting position on the Iraq war will enable the Giuliani to target her as politically calculating and unprincipled.

The Democrats will target Giuliani as a loose canon. Advantage? Who knows.

Oh but you say, what about Rudy's three marriages, dressing in drag, etc. Yeah right, the Clinton's are going to harp on someone else's sexual pecadillos. It will probably be a repeat of 92 when the Clintons made it very clear to GHW Bush that any reference to Bill's extracurricular activities would bring on a bombardment to the news media about the special relationship between the president and one Jennifer Fitzgerald. As for Abner Louima and the various other racially charged incidents during Giuliani's administrations--let's just say that in certain circles that's a big, big plus for him.

Could the Democrats beat Rudy? Yes, but it would take someone who was willing to play as dirty as the Republicans (which the Clintons would do better than anyone on the Democratic side) and someone who can challenge Giuliani on his strengths as well as his weaknesses. This could be a problem for Hillary Clinton.

I'm not saying she'd lose but it's not going to be as easy as many Democrats think. I'm also not saying this to bash Hillary. She's not my favorite candidate but if she's the Democratic nominee I will support her in the general election.

You asked me what I think will happen and this is it.

[FREEWILL56]

6. That's a good question.

I don't know, but it sure isn't "we the people".

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[melody]

8. Fairly, Clinton. The idea of the GOP south voting for someone name "Guiliani" ... I don't think so

They'll vote third party or stay home.

[incapsulated]

9. You know that party is in trouble

When they are even considering nominating a Italian, Catholic, pro-choice former New York mayor because at least he has some tie to their only hope, 9/11 and Fear.

It's actually funny. In a good way.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. You don't know much about the South, do you?

Forget "Gone With the Wind" and all the dumb movies stereotyping Southerners as hicks and racists.

If people who normally vote GOP don't vote for Rudy it won't be because of his Italian name but because of his support for abortion and same sex marriage.

They won't vote for Hillary for the same reasons.


So it's a draw and they'll stay home;

OR if they think Rudy will be influenced by other Republicans to appoint strict constructionist justices to SCOTUS, they'll hold their noses and vote for Rudy;

OR the high negatives that she has in all parts of the US will get people out to vote against her.

[melody]

51. Golly, no, my family has only lived in the south for 350 years

My paternal grandmother nearly disowned my father for dating an Italian woman. The entire family had a problem with it. Guiliani has far more "southern" baggage than Hillary does.

I'm voting Edwards in the primary, but if the question is Rudy versus Hillary, Hillary will trounce him.

[mike_c]

11. America loses....

:cry:

[MonkeyFunk]

12. Clinton would win handily

I don't think Giuliani would hold up well to national scrutiny.

[Richard Steele]

13. With Rudi + the MEDIA against the most DISLIKED woman in the USA, it's Guliani in a landslide.

They won't need no Diebold to win that one.

It'll be the most HONEST Repub victory in human memory.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Sometimes I Regret Coming Here

The atmosphere is toxic...She will beat Rudi and she will beat him fairly handily...She's beating him now despite fifteen years of negative press while Rudi is treated as some latter day Winston Churchill because he arrived at a disaster scene...

He literally and sadly has turned 9-11 into a punch line...

[denem]

25. Well I value your voice of reason - dare I say reality.

Two things: 1. I still can't see a photo of Bobby without the pain of loss.
2. I wish you would call out John Edwards - you may not say it out loud , but I can barely stand him.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I Liked Edwards (Until) He Started Bashing Other Democrats

Now, he doesn't exist to me...

TY for your remarks about my avatar...I shook his hand when I was six years old... I still have a letter he wrote to me in response to a letter I wrote to him when I was ten... I "love" Bobby, the "liberal" Bobby and the "ruthless" Bobby who would have ate glass for his brother, John...

[Augdog20]

27. Times paying attn to Rudy Giuliani's pol. comm. Bernie Kerik mess

Bernie Kerik is under federal and local investigation for links to mob-linked firm(s).
New York Times is giving attention to story, about once every 2 weeks.
Giuliani stood by him; is his kid's godfather. x( :puke: Times said Giuliani know about Kerik's potential mob links :puke: earlier than he let on.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/03/us/politics/03kerik.html

[CyberPieHole]

41. "the most DISLIKED woman in the USA"???

Is that your opinion or do you have data to back that up?

[CyberPieHole]

46. Self delete. Mis-placed post.

[paulk]

54. absurd.

[Richard Steele]

57. No, B*sh-lovers slamming Kerry's military record was ABSURD. (and how did THAT work out for them?)

What they'll do to Candidate Hillary is "PREDICTABLE".

Predictable.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bonito]

15. The PNAC neocons. n/t

[denem]

24. Well I value your contributions - You're a first read for me..

The only negative is I still can't see a photo of Bobby without that pang of loss.

[Perry Logan]

17. Landslide for Clinton, you silly-billys.

[OKNancy]

28. YUP

All the Gore states plus
Virginia, Missouri, Arkansas, Colorado and perhaps Arizona and New Hampshire. ( Florida too)

[flvegan]

29. Depends upon the counter(s) of the votes.

That's your answer.

[DFW]

30. My worthless guess if I have to make one:

If it's really between those two, HRC wins handily in electoral votes,
but squeaks by in popular.

What happens to the country afterwards? I think this depends on something
I haven't seen discussed much at all on DU: the makeup of the Congress the
next president will be working with. I suspect that if the Democrats win a
greater-than-expected majority in the House and Senate, that things won't be
so bad at all, even with HRC as president. I suspect that Pelosi will have an
unexpected fight on her hands to remain speaker, and that even if she wins, she
throws in the towel after 2 years max. She is (or was) progressive enough, but
will get blown away by someone with the same views, but less cautious about going
forward with them. I also think that if the Senate gives a comfortable majority,
say 56 seats or better, that Reid is out as majority leader, and someone like Chris
Dodd will take over. Leahy stays on as Judiciary chairman, and I think Conyers has
a few years left in him as well. I think Stevens will retire from the Supreme COurt,
and a Steve Breyer type will replace him. I also think that Kennedy and/or (dare I wish it?)
Scalia will retire as well, and turn history back, or rather forward, to where it
should have been in the legal history of our country.

If we don't get some really comfortable majorities in both houses of Congress, we get
a wishy-washy, unattractive version of what we wanted, and we will be bitching about
the results of the election until the next one.

[PaDem]

32. Don't think it's really close.........

Rudy would win rather handily in my opinion. Hillary is poison in a general election. Poison.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Then Why Is She Spanking Him In The Majority Of Published Polls?

DSB

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. And She's Beating Rudi's Ass By Thirteen Points In Your Home State

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008__1/2008_presidential_election/pennsylvania_2008_presidential_election

[PaDem]

52. don't care about the polls.........

I'm telling you what I think will happen. I'll gladly come here for some crow if I'm wrong. Frankly I'm hoping neither get nominated.

[PaDem]

36. I must admit I'm really surprised..........

that we're paying attention to "polls" around here. I was a Howard Dean supporter back in 2003 and the polls broke against him late. I'm convinced the same will happen with HRC after their base unifies and the Evangelical movement comes out in force against her. Their base hates her more than ours hates Bush. They'll rally around anyone to defeat HRC. Religious conservatives who might otherwise stay at home (Rudy?) will be out in force if HRC is the nominee. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I certainly could be wrong about this, but from my perspective this is just so obvious. People hate this woman. I know half a dozen Democrats that will vote for Rudy over HRC. I don't know any Dems who will vote for Rudy or any other Repub over any other Dem candidate. HRC has been absolutely destroyed by a very real "right wing conspiracy". Fifteen years of being dragged through the mud. I have nothing against her, and I think she'd make a solid president. It's too bad she can't be just another relatively unknown senator.

[rucky]

35. Clinton wins and we start on the longer, scenic route back to sanity

[mmonk]

37. I can only pray that the voters never choose Giuliani.

that would be DISASTROUS.

[incapsulated]

38. WHY WAS MY POST DELETED???

PEOPLE CAN CALL HILLARY EVERY NAME IN THE BOOK BUT I CAN'T INSULT RUDY FUCKING GIULLIANI??

FUCK DU, I AM SICK OF IT.

OH, AND RUDY ***IS*** A NASTY TEMPERED LITTLE TWAT.

Edited for fully correct offensive line.

[conservdem]

40. I though it was missing for a while. Glad to see it back?

What happened to it?

[incapsulated]

42. It was deleted

If I can't insult a repuke like Rudy, I am really done.

And if this is some PC nonsense, I'm also done. I have seen more sexist language used toward Hillary, than I ever imagined would be possible on DU.

[conservdem]

43. How did you get it back?

And are you saying it was deleted because of something insulting you wrote about Rudy?

If so can you please give me a general idea of what line you crossed so I can avoid it too.

[radiclib]

47. Is "TWAT" the best you can do?

I mean, c'mon. How about "nasty little cunt"? Can I call Hillary a "prick"?
I would expect..actually, I HOPE this post is deleted.

[incapsulated]

49. Calling a male

A "nasty tempered little twat" is hardly sexist.

In fact, if you spent any time in the UK, using "female" insults toward men is hardly unusual.

If you don't like rough language, fine.

But I use it often and I've never gotten a post deleted for that before.

Frankly, given the borderline sexist slurs I've read about a FEMALE DEMOCRAT used right here on DU I find it amusing that the line is drawn over a repuke scum like Rudy Giuliani.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. Oh, right. We forgot for a moment that men have earned every foul word that you can dream up. n/t

[conservdem]

39. Giuliani will win and immigration and divers licenses will play a

big roll in his victory.

[CyberPieHole]

55. "Divers"? You think everyone will want to get PADI certified?

Could happen.:evilgrin:

[Basileus Basileon]

44. Clinton. We have eight pretty good years, like from '92-'00.

[ginchinchili]

45. Frankly, I don't think it's a chance we can afford to take.

[CyberPieHole]

48. Clinton would win. Handily.

Ghouliani will be dragged down by his "progressive" stance on GLBT issues and his record on "right to life"...you can hear all the repug crazies weepily pose the question: "...but, but, what about the children?"

[Carrieyazel]

56. Ghouliani wins it. Hillary won't be able to get many Indeps and ModRepukes

Ghouliani would take nearly all of them. Ghouls will find that he's running against the only candidate more disliked than he is. They want her desperately. They know they will beat her. And this country will be on the verge of destruction if Ghouliani takes office.

[DFW]

58. The radical right will have convulsions if this is the choice

Giuliani will be too far to the left for many of them, just as Hillary
is too far to the right for many of us. Once the nominations are sewn up,
both will try to recoup their party's bases, and I think Hillary will have
an easier time of that than Giuliani would. Pics of Rudy with a bull horn
don't match Hillary's voting record in the Senate, Iraq notwithstanding.

Plus there is the minor matter of the country being ready for a change, and
as each day of Cheneybush goes on, the more ready it is. It'll take a LOT of
Diebold machines to overcome that--more than they have, I think.

I give Hillary the Democratic nominee better chances than Hillary the candidate
for the nomination. She'll have to work hard for both, and I don't think her
campaign is peppered with idiots too stupid to realize that. I don't know anyone
there except Ann Lewis, but if the rest of them are one tenth as sharp as Ann,
they know full well what they are up against.

[sniffa]

60. the ghouL in a squeaker/steaL

however, we Lost controL of the senate, and maybe even the house.

hopefuLLy, peopLe wake up to that.

[ozone_man]

61. Corporate America in a landslide.

Be careful what we win. :)

[enough already]

62. Very clear cut. Giuliani wins

Name the red state that she flips. I'll wait. Forever.

In the meantime, several current blue states are suddenly at least in play. She can't beat him nationally, period.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. "Name the red state that she flips. I'll wait. Forever."

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=63da605b-ad78-4d68-b226-881aa43f3909

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=97085321-b633-4566-8998-266a41fb3410


http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=2dbaa9be-dfa7-499e-9aa6-e748067ea7ca


http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=88ee22a0-fd25-4335-8757-55c4df15e945





What blue states does she "put in play"?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. "What blue states does she "put in play"?

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=018d379b-73f4-422c-ac13-d3f8d5a29227


http://eagletonpoll.rutgers.edu/polls/release_10_26_07.pdf


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008__1/2008_presidential_election/pennsylvania_2008_presidential_election


http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=2b437822-0643-4214-a4fa-a398c0685271

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=018d379b-73f4-422c-ac13-d3f8d5a29227


Why do I bother?

[rinsd]

70. No response I see.

Typical bullshit.

[Kitsune]

63. Whoever wins, we lose.

And I'll apologize right now for reminding people that the Aliens vs Predator movie ever happened.

[Kablooie]

65. Well. That was sure fun to think about, wasn't it?

[riqster]

67. Hillary wins

Everybody knows all the dirt on her, and she still polls well. Most peeps don't know diddley about Rudy, and when the dirt comes out on him, he'll flame out like the Hindenberg.

[truebrit71]

69. Corporate America wins.....again

....