IF Obama was doing something funny with bussing students into Iowa -

[jillan]

It's all over the press now. And the blogs.

So IF there was some hanky-panky going on, it could be over.

[karynnj]

1. If the capaign ran buses from Chicago to various college towns

to bring students back to caucus, why would that be "hanky panky".

[MonkeyFunk]

2. Because

if these students were home on break, and had to get back to Iowa for school, the campaign would then be giving them something of value in exchange for their vote, which is usually a no-no.

[ellacott]

4. I could see that as a possibility but this is done in many elections

Many times candidates recruit people to provide rides for voters and may not be able to get to the polls.

[MonkeyFunk]

8. Yes

but the people aren't getting anything of value. They don't have to vote, they don't have to get to the polls.

But these students DO have to get back to Iowa, expectedly on their own dime.

If Obama's campaign was bringing them back to Illinois after the caucus, then they haven't received anything of value. If they stay in Iowa, then they have received something.

I'm not in any way saying that's what's happening - I'm just speaking hypothetically.

[ellacott]

15. It's possilble that he may have to drive them back

It depends on whether their dorms will be open. I read a report last week that their dorms would be opened. I saw something here this morning that said the dorms would not be opened.

[tammywammy]

27. I read about one school

The dorms are only open for the caucus.

edited to add: here's a story about how some schools are handling the caucus.
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/12/03/Metro/Most-Ui.Dorms.To.Stay.Closed.During.Caucuses-3127660.shtml

[ellacott]

31. Thanks for the links

:)

[Vickers]

7. So these folks that I drive to the polls on election day...

...that's wrong?

:shrug:

In Florida it is quite common to give elderly neighbors a lift to the polling place.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. as I said above

that's not giving them anything of value. You pick 'em up, take 'em home.

IF the students are getting a free trip back to college, that's a different story.

[JackORoses]

51. why not just say they are getting a free vacation?

that argument holds just about as much water.

How dare Obama bribe voters with a free vacation to Iowa?

And there is no contract between Obama and those kids that says they have to vote for him.
Once they're at the Caucus they can vote for anyone.

[MonkeyFunk]

52. I wasn't accusing Obama of anything

I was talking hypothetically. If you'll read the whole thread, you'll see that it seems there's nothing to worry about here.

[JackORoses]

55. i know there's nothing to worry about, but that didn't stop Hillarites from getting it into the news

They know that it doesn't have to be true to cause doubt amongst voters.
Keep em coming...
Barack's a super ambitious Muslim, who wanted to be President in Kindergarten, and thinks that College students have a right to Caucus.
What an evil bastard.

You must have been talking hypothetically when you declared Gore would not win the Nobel, too, huh?

[MonkeyFunk]

66. I don't understand what you're getting at

I've certainly never said any such thing about Obama.

And will you be sure to remember every other prediction people make here that doesn't work out?

If you'll recall, it was a two part prediction - the other half was that he's not running for President. Will you follow me around a few months from now and give me props for being right on that one?

And what does that 2-month old thread have to do with this one?

[ccpup]

19. are these elderly voters

that you drive to the Polls on Election Day living in neighboring States? I think that's what the OP is referring to. People being bussed in from out-of-State to potentially inflate Obama's numbers in a State they don't necessarily live in.

[ellacott]

23. But if they are registered to vote in Iowa that shouldn't matter

The only reason this is a problem this year is because the caucus takes place during the Christmas break when the dorms are closed.

[Vickers]

25. So there is a mileage limit?

:shrug:

I'm sorry, this seems to be such a non-issue to me. The only folks getting riled up about it are....well, you know.

[ellacott]

33. Good question n/t

[Clintonista2]

22. I'm a student

I live 8 hours away from home, a round-trip bus ticket costs me over 100$. If Obama were to bus students like me back to Iowa in order to vote for him, the students are *gaining* something of monetary value, because they no longer have to shell out 50+ bucks in transportation costs in order to get back to their school.

The folks you drive to the polling station don't gain anything of value. At the end of the day, there is nothing financially gained by those people. The same is not true for the students, who suddenly don't have to pay to get back to school as a financial incentive to vote for Obama, which is wrong.

[ellacott]

35. MonkeyFunk brought up that scenario

If he takes them back home it may not be a conflict. They might have to go back home because all dorms won't be open.

If they were staying I can't see why they can't just charge them for the trip.

[beachmom]

36. Only if school starts right away. Otherwise, they have to go right back home.

Sorry, this is a stretch. College students should be allowed to vote, and many don't have means for transportation to do so on Jan. 3rd. (my college didn't re-commence classes until 1/20 or so, so this would be no help whatsoever in terms of transportation to school).

[ellacott]

39. Very good point n/t

[CTLawGuy]

61. lawyers

are allowed to pay the reasonable expenses, transportation, meals, lost wages etc. for witnesses to come to court to testify.

they are NOT allowed to give witnesses anything of value in exchange for testimony.

Perfect analogy.

A campaign can assist a legal voter in going to the polls but cannot bribe them in order to induce them to vote for the person.

Do you think that a caucus goer is going to sell their vote for a free ride to the polls?

[jillan]

3. There is such a heated debate here - I am just trying to say -

Maybe I didn't do a good enough job - that *if* there was something going on, it's over now and it doesn't matter.
Move on.....

[Mass]

5. Because Hillary supporters told you so.

[Nedsdag]

11. Exactly!

Stop it, Hillary supporters, just stop it!

The more you guys, excuse the term, bitch about this, the less likely I plan on voting for your candidate in November IF she gets the nomination. I'll sacrifice the Supreme Court rather than vote for Her Royal Highness!

You make it sound like Obama is busing students from Alabama and Texas to vote in Iowa.

[oasis]

16. We don't intend to stop campaigning for our candidate. Vote for a Repub if you wish.

:thumbsdown:

[emilyg]

21. Who cares how you vote.

[napi21]

6. Hmmm, would you say the same thing if Hillary had don that?

I don't know if it's legal to do that or not, but it feels wrong to me. Kinda like buying votes or something.

I know I was pi**ed off when romney bussed in a lot of supporters to some event in Iowa...a straw poll I think.

[hedgehog]

9. The difference is that anyone can vote in the Iowa straw poll by paying a fee.

To vote in the caucus, you must be a registered voter.

[Debi]

14. How pissed off were you when Huckabee got votes from the folks

that Romney bussed in?

It is not only legal, it is within the rules of the party for the caucuses.

How is giving a person a ride to the caucus site 'buying votes'?

[MonkeyFunk]

17. If you're at your parents' house in Illinois for the holidays

and you need to get back to Iowa for school, you are usually responsible for getting yourself there, and the trip has some value (car fare, bus fare, air fare, etc.)

If you get a free ride to Iowa and get dropped off there and stay for school, you would have received something of value.

If you get a free ride there, and then a ride back to your parents' house, you have not received anything of value (unless you consider a one-day round trip to Des Moines "of value". And I've been to Des Moines - it's not.)

[napi21]

28. I don't know a lot about campaign funding laws, but I can tell you,

when I was a volunteer for the Dean campaign as we were sending letters to the people in Iowa, the campaign provided the stamps, paper & envelopes because for us to provide those would have been considered a campaign contribution. Yes I do believe any "free trip" has a value...some more than others!

[Debi]

38. First of all they will have to get the ride to their caucus site and not to Des Moines

Des Moines may be the most populous city in Iowa, but it is not the only city in Iowa and the students who come back to caucus will have to register in the 1,700 some-odd precincts where they reside during the school year.

Also, the majority of colleges don't return to school until the 14th of January or later. Most of the schools are opening areas for the students to spend the night after caucus but that's it. The students have to be gone the next day.

I just spoke with the Obama Regional here in Black Hawk County and she said that the students are creating car pools themselves and the campaign has yet to set up a pick up/drop off arrangement. However if anyone does wish to receive a ride to/from caucus it will be solely for the process and they will be given a ride home.

Please feel free to contact the Obama office in Des Moines for any other questions you have.

[karynnj]

49. Yes - It is normal to drive people who need it to the polls

This happens in every election. Here the distance is different and even with the same pick up and drop off point, it will be more expensive - but the point is the same. No one questions that all campaigns drive people to the polls. If it is a big issue, they likely could charge each student their share.

[ilovesunshine]

12. pirhana, you're probably going to be called a hillbot now.

*sighs*

[jillan]

65. Not with my Biden sig line :)

[Debi]

13. But he isn't doing anything funny with busing Iowa college students

back to Iowa to caucus because it is not only legal but within the rules of the Iowa Caucuses.

So if it is all over the press, good. That way the Iowa Attorney General or Secretary of State or Governor and the Chair of the Iowa Democratic Party can tell the complaining campaigns (and that idiot David Yepsen) that they're full of crap.

I'm glad that reasonable DUers will listen to Iowans and trust that we have some clue how the caucuses are run in our state and what the law in Iowa says.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. There are two different issues here

one is whether students have the right to caucus (they do) and whether the campaigns can inform them of that and encourage them to do so (they can.)

The other is whether the campaigns can provide something of value to the voters they bus in - they can't. If a free trip back to school is part of the deal, that may run afoul of the law (unless Iowa has different laws than most other states).

[Debi]

26. Is Obama offering rides back to school for the semester?

I didn't see that on the flyer.

I wonder how all those out of state college students will get 10 weeks worth of clothing and personal items all packed on a school bus and into their caucus site AND into their dorms.

Unless the Obama campaign says otherwise, I believe the ride to the caucus was the same as the ride to the polls.

Do you have different information?

[MonkeyFunk]

30. I have no idea

I'm only speaking hypothetically about whether busing a student back from Illinois would be "of value".

And when I was in college, I went home for Christmas with a suitcase - I didn't have to empty out my dorm room for the break.

[Debi]

40. I called the local office myself.

The rides offered are to the caucus for the caucus and then back home. nothing 'of value'.

[MonkeyFunk]

42. good! Then there's no issue!

[Debi]

43. Thank you MonkeyFunk, I'm glad we agree. n/t

[karynnj]

50. Thanks Debi

For resolving this issue. What I don't get is how HRC doesn't think that her campaign raising this issue won't alienate college kids.

[Debi]

56. I think it's not meant to do that. It's meant to get people all riled up

that one candidate is cheating and thank goodness another candidate caught them. When the dust settles and it's determined that nobody broke any rules it may be too late for people to realize that they've been had (and not by Obama). I think Iowans won't fall for it. Too many of us know the law and the rules. Clinton looks bad (Tom Vilsack the former Iowa Governor, who defended Iowa's caucus system when other campaigns attacked Dean saying that all the Perfect Storm volunteers were going to caucus, knows this but is allowing the campaign to take this path anyway). It's meant to deflect rather than actually educate.

At least that's MO

[Bitwit1234]

20. If Iowa allows out of starters to vote

as long as they are not allowed to vote in another state, what would be wrong with that. They can't be allowed to vote twice. Then anybody could

Those that are legal, I mean those that go to school in Iowa and if they want to vote, go ahead. But there should be a way to keep track and not allow them to vote for anybody in their home state.

I find nothing wrong with that. Busing students in to vote tho, shows Obama must be desperate and a heck of a lot uncertain that he would even win in Iowa. Else why bus students in to vote.

[ellacott]

45. I don't think that makes him desperate

That's an odd choice of words. Obama has a lot of support among the young voters and considering how close this race is polling, every vote adds up. I would think less of him if he didn't try to accomodate these supporters.

If Hillary or Dodd had this type of support among young voters do you honestly believe they would leave those votes on the table?

[Onlooker]

24. Obama and Hillary are playing hardball

Let's not pretend that one occupies the high ground. This is the rough and tumble world of politics. All the top candidates know that fair play and ethics get you only so far. Sad, but true.

[hedgehog]

64. That thought has been expressed before, except can you show me where Obama

was unethical? Edwards? Biden?

When were these guys playing unfair?

[Onlooker]

67. All the time

On their mutual misportrayals of each other's health care plans, on the use of PACs, on their tax plans, etc. They're all positioning themselves to win votes. It shows in the newspapers and tv reports, not so much in debates, though there too they all misconstrue questions to avoid saying things that won't win votes.

[TeamJordan23]

29. If you live in Iowa 9 months out of the year; you are allowed to caucus. nm

[MonkeyFunk]

34. Yes you are

the question, though, is whether it would be legal for campaigns to provide free transportation back to Iowa for those students.

[beachmom]

32. Look, remember Kenyon College in Ohio? The college students

who waited in long lines to vote for Kerry? Well, the Right Wing used talking points that they weren't REAL Ohioans and shouldn't be allowed to vote.

What Obama is doing is legit, and well within the rules. And really this is a test -- can he turn out the youth vote in a caucus? If he can, then he could do it again in the General.

[BeyondGeography]

37. Let's question students' rights to vote!

Great strategy, Democrats. :freak:

[napi21]

41. Have you read the other posts? The question is if a campaign can

provide something of value (a free round trip bus ride) to a voter or not!

Of course if the students are registered in Iowa they certainly can caucus there! You have missed the real question!

[Debi]

44. Please read upthread

I called the local campaign office

1) no bussing arrangements have been made yet, however when they are made the rides will be to/from the caucuses so nothing 'of value' will be exchanged - no free rides back to college.

2) the campaign is seeing many of the students creating their own car pools so that they don't have to take the bus.

[beachmom]

46. I have not missed the real question. A lot of smoke is being blown here

by opponents of Obama. This is all a non-issue. As if Obama would do something illegal .... I believe he has some experts on his team who would know the rules. He has broken none of them.

[sandnsea]

54. The accusations keep changing

Hillary just keeps throwing mud, any kind of mud. Really stupid supporters of other candidates that jump on Obama because they think it will help their choice - well they're just helping Hillary. Really stupid. Stupid stupid stupid.

[suston96]

47. Is this like athletes......

...taking steroids? He wins Iowa with an * ?

[Debi]

57. *snark* no because out of state Iowa college students registering to vote here

is legal AND within the rules of the party AND encouraged in order to get more young people involved in the political process.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Large numbers of voters were bused in to New Orleans to vote in the mayoral race after Katrina

It wound up not benefiting my candidate of choice, but I didn't really care. They have as much right to vote as I do and if it were up to me there would've been satellite polling places in Houston and other places with large numbers of refugees.

[suston96]

60. Because their homes in NO were demolished?

[Hippo_Tron]

63. Yes

[suston96]

53. No matter what happens.....

...this should be sent to New Hampshire, South Carolina, and the other primary states

[Debi]

58. Yes, it should be.

You should go post it in those state forums so all can see it.

Everyone should know that Iowa law and Iowa Democratic Party rules are being followed by the Obama campaign.

We'd hate to have any rumors being spread.

[madrchsod]

59. busing students into iowa?

wow that`s a lot of buses. an average buss holds about 50 so if he`s going to have any effect on the voting he`d have to rent one hell of a lot of buses to make a difference. with the amount of money that busing all these students it certainly would show up in his expenses. the bus rental and other expenditures the amount would be at least in the low hundreds of thousands of dollars.. it would be real easy to find out if this story is real by calling a buss company and asking them if he is renting their buses to iowa

[Debi]

62. There are 21,000 out of state college students attending Iowa colleges and universities

If we go by the same trend line of Iowa registered voters then 1/3 are Dem, 1/3 are rep and 1/3 are no party (so we're down to 7,000 Democrat students). Since approximately 10% of registered Democrats participated in the 2004 caucuses and we moved that to college students we're down to 700 out of state Iowa college students planning on participating in the caucuses (this is totally non-scientific!) After talking with the local campaign office there have been no busses scheduled yet. Most students are planning their own car pooling for the caucuses. The campaign just wanted to make the students aware that if they wanted to caucus the campaign would find a way for them to get here to caucus and then get them back home.