How can we trust your judgement if you can't admit to a mistake?

[TheWraith]

Yes, this is directed at Clinton, and to a lesser extent Biden, Dodd, Richardson, and Edwards... all the candidates who originally supported the war. No direct offense intended--I really like Biden and Edwards, but it needs to be said.

They all voted for the Iraq War Resolution, with the full knowledge that the Bush administration was pushing for a war. Now, you can either stipulate that they believed the slanted intelligence, and the admin's promises that war would be a last resort, in which case they were grossly trusting in the face of reasonable doubt, or else they didn't buy the Bush administration rationale, but voted for the war anyway.

How can we trust the judgement of someone who was either credulous enough to just flatly believe what the Bush administration fed them, or so ruthlessly political that they'd commit us to war simply to avoid having made an unpopular vote? It's even worse for Clinton. Mistakes can be forgiven, as long as you acknowledge and learn from them. But Clinton has explicitly refused to acknowledge her mistake, and told anybody who wants to hear her say it that they should go look elsewhere, because she's not willing to admit that it was an error. And then, with the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, she showed that she still hasn't learned in the slightest.

That doesn't speak to the kind of instincts, intelligence, and common sense that we need in a President. What good is "experience" if you don't learn from it, or for that matter have the wisdom to do it right the first time?

[FrenchieCat]

1. Judgment is key.......

and making mistakes, whether one realizes it later and chooses to apologize or not to apologize is besides the point of having instinctual sound judgment from the git, IMO.

[TheWraith]

3. And if you won't admit publicly to a mistake, how do we know if you think you've even made one?

Bush won't admit to making a mistake either.

[FrenchieCat]

6. Admitting a mistake or two or three or four doesn't win one

the highest office in the land, IMO.

[mtnsnake]

2. Apologizing for the war won't make it go away. They're all responsible for their original sin

apology or no apology.

This isn't a case of apologizing in order to ward off someone getting hurt. This is more about saying your sorry for your vote just to make yourself look politically correct once all the polls told you it was safe to do so. They voted for the war and every casualty, past, present, or future is because of their votes, and no apology will ever change that.

Kucinich is the only candidate who has nothing on his conscience when it comes to this war.

[cali]

4. spot on and beautifully said, snaky! n/t

[mtnsnake]

7. thank you, cali

:)

[TheWraith]

5. True, but admitting that they were wrong goes a long way. NT

[Cameron27]

8. Admitting that they were wrong may go a long way,

if they don't use that apology as a political prop to beat the heads of their rivals with. It also helps to include all the facts in your apology.

[Imagevision]

9. Their mistakes cost the lives and families of more then 3800, how's your Christmas?

[bvar22]

21. And about 1 Million Iraqis.

They are (were) HUMAN too.

[Adelante]

10. I don't see why to a greater extent your OP is addressed to Clinton

What is your thinking on that? Edwards sat on the Intelligence Committee, did not read the National Intelligence Estimate, co-sponsored the IWR, and voted No to every single limiting amendment, and hawked the war for Bush. Why does he get a lesser extent of criticism? They all had lousy judgment leading to a tragic result and Edwards had more lousy judgment than anyone.

I'm not voting for any of them in the primaries, just wondering. I couldn't care less about apologies or admitting mistakes. None of them deserve to be rewarded with the presidency.

[TheWraith]

12. Edwards admitted he was wrong, and apologized.

That at least shows that he can learn from his errors.

[Adelante]

14. Just in time to run for the nomination again

How very convenient.

[cali]

19. maybe. and maybe it was just political opportunism.

we don't know which one it is, so you're wrong to claim that it shows he can learn from his mistakes. And regardless, the blood on his hands is undeminished by his apology. Everybody who voted for it has blood on their hands and an apology doesn't wash it away.

[suston96]

11. Admitting mistakes shows good judgement that can be trusted?

That's pretty silly. Mistakes usually mean bad judgement.

"...flatly believe what the Bush administration fed them..."? You mean the NIE in 2002 that said Iraq had WMD? That was what was "fed" Hillary Clinton and the Republican controlled Congress, and you say that anybody that believed it should be condemned for believing phony information from a government agency? That's an interesting concept and shows an inspired grasp of how our inter-branch government works.

Uh, the Executive Branch runs the nation's Intelligence agency. The would be the same Intelligence agency that "fed everybody" the 2007 NIE which tells us that Iran quit making nuclear weapons in 2003. And now everybody, including Congress should accept this NIE without question?

How can you torture what Clinton - and the Congress and the American public did or should have done in the past, in face of the same mistakes being made right now?

[Cha]

13. I remember Edwards..

did admit he made a mistake for the iwr. That is what has me looking at him.

hillary seems to think she can't change her mind.

[Adelante]

15. Yet when Kerry wanted to do just that with the K-E ticket

Edwards objected and talked him out of it. Then for his own second primary campaign, just in the nick of time, he is sorry. He can never be sorry enough.

[Cha]

23. And, neither, can hillary

ever be "sorry enough" for what she's done..and that includes stabbing John Kerry in the back on national tv.

They all have weaknesses..some are just more vicious than others.

[Cameron27]

16. But he blamed his mistake on faulty intel,

and never included the fact that he never bothered to read the NIE docs before he voted. I blame everyone who voted yes, but Edwards took the cake with his hawkish speeches, and cosponsorship. He also voted against the sunset provision that Clinton voted for, and against Durbin's amendment to hold back funds until there was an investigation into the intelligence bush used to justify the invasion.

[bpeale]

17. Everyone makes mistakes

Forgiveness for that mistake should be extended if the perp ADMITS they made a mistake & does everything they can to correct it.

No forgiveness for someone who makes a mistake ... everyone knows it was a mistake ... but you steadfastly refuse to admit it or correct it. THAT i cannot forgive.

i am not perfect & don't expect everyone else to be perfect ... even if they are running for the highest job in the land.

the first step to correcting a mistake (if you can) is to ADMIT you made one.

[killbotfactory]

18. I've been asking this question about everyone who supported the IWR

for the past five years.

You would think a vote like this, which has had such disastrous consequences (like killing nearly a million iraqi's) would be a bigger issue, but I guess if you were an idiot in a large enough group it is excusable.

[ProSense]

20. I think it has something to do with

this!

[AtomicKitten]

22. I like to refer to it as AN EPIC MISTAKE OF CATASTROPHIC PROPORTIONS.

I have always felt very strongly that I cannot support anyone who voted for the IWR. Obama is my candidate and his quote in my sig line matters to me. I hope to never have occasion to reward anyone complicit in this ugly war with my vote, and my money's on the new kid for the win.

[jillan]

24. Wait a minute - Biden, Edwards and Dodd have all said this was their greatest mistake.

And they have apologized. And Dodd and Biden have proven that they have learned by voting NO on K/L.

[TheWraith]

25. True, which speaks well of their honesty.

Even though the original vote doesn't reflect well on their instincts. But being burned once can make people wiser and more savvy.

[sniffa]

26. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

oh well.

:kick:

[LWolf]

27. Please DON'T trust my judgment.

Please don't trust anyone's judgment, including your own.

Don't TRUST a politician. Look at background, experience, record, and compare that to what the politician is saying to determine whether or not he or is likely to follow words with action.

Look at the same to determine whether or not a politician's stated plans, goals, platform, etc., is sourced in what she values and is committed to, or what he thinks the voting public wants to hear.

Make your choices based on that, but don't TRUST them to mean what they say.

[suston96]

28. It wasn't a mistake.....

Because the information that Clinton and the rest of the Senate made their judgments on came from the nations intelligence agency which is the only game in town. If that is all people have in determining Clinton's "judgment....."

Oh, wait, she made another vote about the Iran Revolutionary Guard which is charged with Iran's nuclear weaponry and missiles - and that's another "mistake in judgment" because there are no WMD - no nuclear weapons - in Iran. She should have read the NIE report - you know, the same NIE that gave her the phony information in 2002.

But enough of that. Try this and see what the American people think about that Iran nuclear weapons program and related stuff:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/general_current_events/just_18_believe_iran_has_stopped_nuclear_weapons_development_program

Just 18% Believe Iran has Stopped Nuclear Weapons Development Program
Friday, December 07, 2007

Just 18% of American voters believe that Iran has halted its nuclear weapons program. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 66% disagree and say Iran has not stopped its nuclear weapons program. Twenty-one percent (21%) of men believe Iran has stopped the weapons development along with 16% of women (see crosstabs).

The survey was conducted following release of a government report saying that Iran halted its nuclear weapons development program in 2003.

The Rasmussen Reports survey also found that 67% of American voters believe that Iran remains a threat to the national security of the United States. Only 19% disagree while 14% are not sure.

Fifty-nine percent (59%) believe that the United States should continue sanctions against Iran. Twenty percent (20%) disagree and 21% are not sure.

Forty-seven percent (47%) believe it is Very Likely that Iran will develop nuclear weapons in the future and another 34% believe Iran is Somewhat Likely to do so.

Twenty-nine percent (29%) of liberal voters believe that Iran has stopped its weapons program but 54% disagree.

*******

Is the people right? Is Hillary Clinton right?

More.......

[cuke]

29. They have records

Anyone who is incapable of using a candidates record to get at least a rough idea of where they stand on the issue is not trying hard enough

All of the candidates have a record. You can see which issues they have championed, and which issues they have not paid as much attention to. You can see the positions they've taken, and the votes they have made.

Relying on what a politician says, particularly while running for office, is the WORST and the laziest way to judge a candidate

[frogmarch]

30. The IWR gave

bush the authority to go to war AS A LAST RESORT.

bush abused that authority.

I have never held a yes vote for the IWR against any Dem, and I never will.