It needs to be said, Fuck Religion in Politics

[Superman Returns]

Sorry for the rant, but I can't take it anymore. Are we electing a Reverend or a President? What the hell is happening to this country. Every damn story about the election has something to do with religion, and I'm sick of it! It's religion & politics 24/7, and now the cable news specials are coming. Let me make it clear: candidates should not be discouraged from connecting their faith to their basic core values and translating it in a way that appeals to Americans of all beliefs. But for candidates to have to speak about their specific theological beliefs, to have candidates answering their merit for the presidency based on their literal belief in the Bible, to have one right-wing sect of Christianity determine who is and who isn't a Christian; we are losing our democracy to this pandering!

For all the talk about the secularist attack on religion and faith in America, I don't believe we've ever had presidential elections in this country, where candidates, both Republican and Democrats had to literally wear their faith on their sleeves. Religion is important for many people, and that's fine. But the infusion of one particular brand of religion into the public discourse on issues of morality and values is dangerous. Politics is about debate, reason, and facts. Religion on the other hand is an unwavering belief system that claims to have a monopoly on the absolute truth. Politics and religion do not mix.

We have the rise of Mike Huckabee whose entire niche is that he is a "Christian leader" and the phony Romney who calls for tolerance for his religion yet says "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom." So much for the President representing all people, including: atheists, agnostics, and others with a different view. Even the Democratic candidates continue to pander to this waste of time nonsense when we have so many important issues to tackle.

Is anyone as sick as myself with the media for shoving "Religion & Politics" down our throats? Has it gone too far? I sense a large backlash against Republicans particularly amongst moderates and traditional conservatives who fear that the Constitution is being undermined and that country is slowly becoming a sort of theocracy.

[bunnies]

1. Well said.

Im in total agreement.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Cheers to you My Friend

As my sig line states:

I DID NOT SPEND 24 YEARS IN UNIFORM SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING THE BIBLE. Nor did/are any of the men and women who have ever served in the military for our country.

Sadly this pandering crap is being orchestrated by whining zealots who constantly wheeze about being persecuted.

[NMMNG]

3. A hearty K&R

I am sick to death of so much pandering to religion that everything else, and everyone else, gets left by the wayside. Separation of Church and State needs to be adhered to, for the protection of all.

[ixion]

5. second that...K&R for Separation of Church and State

:patriot:

[Plucketeer]

64. And I THIRD it!

:kick:

[Fredda Weinberg]

4. I remember progressive clergy in the 60's. Be careful what you ask for n/t

[arizonateddybear]

6. I agree in part...

I agree, but one can never forget the huge grassroots Evangelical movement to overtake congress in the early 90's.

Many people do view themselves as religious, and there is nothing wrong with those people. The people who we need to be fearful of are the fundamental nut jobs who vote in great numbers.

[greyghost]

7. K&R! eom

[immoderate]

8. Sounds good to me.

--IMM

[OwnedByFerrets]

9. K & R 1000 times if i could...nt

[LakeSamish706]

10. Great Post.. And certainly think there should be a separation of Church and State! n/t

[Plucketeer]

66. I think this is a great post too, and

it's an instance of why I love DU. I've always felt that if you "get something" from your faith - GREAT! I only expect that you don't foist your faith on me. I'm perfectly happy like I am - always have been and always will be.
I'm here for the time being and I full well comprehend that one day I WON'T be. I think, as beings of this planet, we're both fortunate and cursed with the brain we've developed. Self-esteem can serve one well, but it gets outta hand when we worry and fret about the fact that we'll simply cease to exist when our time is up and we need a sorta Never-Never Land to promise ourselves we'll proceed to for eternity. Heh - a world of White, Wings and Philly Cream Cheese is not something I aspire to! Nor is the daunting promise of 72 virgins on my wish list! My final reward would be one good, experienced partner who enjoyed whatever I liked, a nice Studebaker with an eternally full gas tank and a bottomless tumbler of grapefruit and vodka!

:loveya:

[Arkansas Granny]

11. I have been listening to and watching the news lately and they

spend more discussing the candidates religious beliefs than they do about their positions on the issues. I can't help but remember how upset people were when Kennedy ran for office and the fear that religion would get all mixed up in politics. Jimmy Carters religion was considered a drawback when he ran for office. I don't understand how religion became so important on the political scene.

[Virginia Dare]

12. Sick to death of it myself..

personally I hope the repubs nominate Romney or Huckabee and choke on it this year. It's gone way too far, and it's a crime that people like Pat Robertson still get their tax exempt status.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

13. if 90% of the country was atheist

the candidates would be pissing themselves about how well-read they are with Sam Harris and Hitchens. That's just the way it works - Christian country, Christian candidates.

[polichick]

15. Christians don't make up 90% of this country...

Thank God!

[RiverStone]

41. Who says this is a Christian country?

Must be those Christians that assume it's their way or the high way. That arrogance is nothing but presumptuous bullshit.

[polichick]

14. We have tossed out the separation of church and state...

...along with lots of other things this country was founded upon. THAT's what the media should be reporting!

[Prophet 451]

16. I am a man of faith

and an ordained minister. With that said, I agree with you (although I would have chosen different language).

Here (Britain), politicians rarely talk about their religion. Many of them are people of deep faith and one has to assume that affects how they vote but religious language is rarely used in either chamber and it's very rare for a politician to mention his faith much. Blair was atypical in that regard as he mentioned that he would like to see "intelligent design" taught in schools (shocked hell out of us, the ID crowd are a tiny, tiny minority here). After he left office, he said that he feared speaking more about his faith in case people thought he was a "nutter" (too late, Tony). That's a very unusual case though. I didn't even know Michael Howard (stalwart Tory MP, frequent Cabinet member and one-time leader) was Jewish until his retirement, the subject just never came up.

I have to disagree on one thing: Politics and religion do mix but ideally, they should do so on a personal level. Whenever it happens on the large scale, whenever politics and religion mix in someone's public life, it always brings out the worst in both.

[alstephenson]

56. You've confirmed what I was told about most European countries...

Most times the people have no idea what religion their candidates are. It simply doesn't matter. I have heard that Europeans think we're quite odd here in the U.S., with all the focus on religion in our politics. Odd, yes, and terribly hypocritical.

[Prophet 451]

61. Somewhat hypocritical

The US is a very odd country. You have freedom of religion enshrined in your Constitution along with a ban on religious tests for office but the populace seems to impose a religious test of it's own and many don't seem to have much of a problem with electing someone for being Christian while they act in a way which is distinctly unchristian.

[alstephenson]

68. Your observations are right on, Prophet. eom

[LeftishBrit]

80. Agreed!

Politics and religion should not mix in public life.

As Alastair Campbell, said, "We don't do God!" Blair is very unusual in British politics in being extremely religious; most aren't, or at least don't introduce it into their public lives. I wouldn't even know what religion most PMs and party leaders have been - I tend to assume most were Church of England in a vague way. Similar to your observation about Howard, I didn't realize that his predecessor as Tory leader, Iain Duncan-Smith, was a Catholic, until I looked him up recently in Wikipedia (I also discovered that his mother was a ballerina, that he is one-eighth Japanese, and that he is related to George Bernard Shaw - somehow you'd have expected him to be slightly more *interesting* than he was!)

The exception to religion not being a big factor in modern UK politics is, of course, Northern Ireland, where Catholic and Protestant sectarianism has had huge negative impact.

I don't care how religious or irreligious someone is, or what religion they hold, just so long as they don't e.g. invade Iraq because they think Jesus told them to do so; plant bombs in London in the cause of Jihad *or* the IRA; or deny women birth control in the name of 'morals'.

[Superman Returns]

17. you know it's funny

Glen Beck was just being interviewed by Wolf Blitzer, and he was so sad for little Williard on why people are focusing on his Mormon religion and not being tolerant. Apparently Beck is a Mormon. Boo hoo, you reap what you sow. Is this guy so dense to not realize that by creating an environment where religion and politics are increasingly intertwined, and by forcing politicians to talk about their faith, that it's THOSE conditions that are putting a spotlight on Romney's beliefs. If people stopped obsessing about a candidate's religion, then Mitt would be treated like his father who ran for President, and no one would give a shit. But then I realized this is the same guy who questioned the first elected Muslim Congressman on his loyalty to this country. What a hypocritical fuck.

[Donnachaidh]

33. Beck was the guy who insulted the Muslim Congressman

So he too can take a flying leap off a rolling donut. What a frigging HYPOCRITE. :grr:

[Trucker Bob]

47. Sorry I missed it

What a riveting interview that must have been. :sarcasm:

[mamameow]

51. mitt's father

yeh, treat him like his dad and defeat him. goerge romney was a terrible governor of michigan and would have made a terrible president.

[C_U_L8R]

18. Charlatans

frauds and phonies.
yes indeed sick to death of these gawd mongers.
Ride em out on a rail.

[NC_Nurse]

19. I couldn't agree more...K&R

I am SO sick of this crap. This is a political election for a government leader - we're not choosing a messiah.
Sheesh.

[mike_c]

20. absolutely!

K&R!

[asdjrocky]

21. Amen? nt

[Plucketeer]

63. I'll see that Amen and

raise you two candlesticks.
Won't it be amusing some day when we finally ARE visited by some extra-terrestrials and they profess their amazement that there's still habitats in the universe where the aware beings laughably cling to hopes that some bigger force is gonna eventually render things "all better" in the end!
IF some such supeior force watches from on high, it's gotta be holding back from visiting us right now so that we get to experience, first-hand, the cataclysmic crap we're gonna reap as a result of it's giving us the "knowledge" we supposedly salivated for, not to mention the buffoonery we perpetrate on one another in order to gain favor with what we THINK is the way to gain it's blessings! :crazy:

Edited for political correctness! :P

[FormerDittoHead]

22. K&R - this last week has made me SICK. What is this fucking country, the Taliban?

When I heard Hucka-fuck go on about trying to get a constitutional ban on abortion on the Imus show - fuck him and fuck all the Taliban who likes his "prey with me now" shit.

Oh, and all the people of different color who don't want to believe in JeZus? Fuck them, right religious voters? Let them starve to death and die of illnesses. You've got yours, your taxcuts and your bible, fuck everyone else - the fucking Republican four commandments.

[Maven]

23. Thank you. And fuck anyone who wants to "reconcile" the two.

They need to be disentangled and kept at a safe distance.

[Perky]

31. That's a bit of a broafbrush

The abolitionist movement in this country had it genesis and found it voice in the evangelical community in the Northeast; The civil rights movement of the 1960s was driven largely by preachers in the South hooking up with progressives. Evangelicals today are building houses and thinking creatively about global warming, speaking forecfully about Darfur and human traffiking and AIDS.

Clearly religion can have a positive role in political discourse and has a moral obligation to not be silent.

ANd yet clearly there ought to be limits to its influence. THe two "great moral issues of our times" to use their language are Gay Rights and abortion and the right wing clearly over reach on both. As a Christian, I have profound theological concerns about their tact and strategies. They have the right to to attempt to influence political discourse....They do not have the right to impose their views on the country.

How, wheean by whom that line get drawn is the problem.

[Skittles]

36. they could do all those things without religion

belief in imaginary beings is not required to DO THE RIGHT THING

[alstephenson]

54. I agree whole-heartedly, Skittles.

I'm so sick of the idea that if you don't believe in Jesus you have no moral compass, no sense of morality. What a bunch of bullshit. I'd rather be a moral agnostic than a freakin' Christian hypocrite.

[Skittles]

60. what is strange is

I am more "Christian" than anyone I know and I am NOT A CHRISTIAN. :)

[Perky]

71. Of course you can and I never implied otherwise.

But simply because someone chooses to view understand the world through a different prism does notnegate theri ability to see and work for the same result nor should it politically emeaculatate them.

I am not making the slightest apology for the religious right's methods or their sensibilities. I am not making excuses for religious imperialiam in this genereation or generations past.

All I am saying is that discarding peopleor trying to muzzle thier voices on the basis of their particular set of beliefsis dangerously close to facsism and if we are not going to allow the Christo-facsists to get away with it, we certainly should not allow it to occur within the ranks of the Democratic Party.

I am not not talking about rolling over on any issue, but if there ar Christians or Jews or Muslims out there who believe in justice and peace and reconciliation and freedom for opression. If they oppose war and prejudice and lift up the poor and are motiver by their Holy write and what they believe their God has called them to be we should neither fear them or relegate them to second class status. Theya are entitleed to believe waht they want to so long as they are not trying to force people to believe as they do or use the mechaisms of goverment to proseletyze.

[Skittles]

73. I don't care what they believe in

I just don't want their bullshit in politics PERIOD - please, let them leave it in church.

[One Voice]

24. Agreed!

Very sick of it, and it has gone way too far.

[ConfidentialStatus]

69. Your Sig line

Reminds me of a song that came out in Oct 2001. Called Makeshift Patriot by Sage Francis. Give it a listen, I think you'll like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtNMly0aDUk

There is a new price on freedom, so buy into it while supplies last.
Changes need to be made;
No more curbside baggage,
Seven pm curfew,
Racial profiling will continue with less bitching.
We've unified over who to kill, so until I find more relevant scripture to quote,
Remember, our god is bigger, stronger, smarter, and much wealthier.
So wave those flags with pride, especially the white part.

[sjdnb]

25. My sentiments plus I am also sick of ...

religion in education, religion litmus tests throughout US society/culture, religions getting special treatment/access/influence, etc. To me, religion is a club/organization like any other club/organization (i.e., masons, girl scouts, fan clubs, etc.) and should be treated as such.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2419326&mesg_id=2420059

[calteacherguy]

26. We cannot exclude those who are religious.

Like it or not, the majority of Americans are religious. Now, I am a firm believer in the absolute separation of church and state, but that does not mean a candidate should disavow their religion when they run for office. Don't look at a candidate's religion...look at their values and how their religion informs those values, if in fact they are religious.

Religion is here to stay, like it or not. Let's try and make it a little more progressive, believers and non-believers.

[Kool Kitty]

75. If their religion actually DID inform their values,

it might not be so bad. I never heard so many bums (repugs at the last debate) yap about how God is their co-pilot, and then in the next breath, tell everyone how they would bomb this and destroy that. I am no longer a Christian, but I do remember what I learned in Sunday school. I don't remember Jesus being a prejudiced, self-righteous prick.

[NMMNG]

76. Susan B. Anthony said it best:

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

[Kool Kitty]

78. Honey, ain't that the truth!

[rasputin1952]

27. I am a Christian, but I don't think many of those who profess to

be Christians are not anything close to the religion. To me, it is far more important to look at how one lives ones own life, as opposed to spending a whole lot of time berating others and finding fault, in fact, that goes against the very grain of the religion.

If I could find people that actually walk the walk, or even try, I would figure they have a basic grasp of what the religion is all about...sadly, very few do. I have many agnostic, atheist, Jewish and just about everything else that I call acquaintances, and all of them are good people, most would only contemplate doing harm to another only if pressed into a situation where there was no alternative. They are generous, non-condescending, understanding, compassionate, empathetic and good natured. Sadly, I find that many of the fundamentalists, from any religion, are the complete opposites, they are filled with hate and fear, waiting for something cosmic to happen so they can fall down flat on their faces and say how "good" they've been.

Religion and politics are like water and oil, they just don't mix...(there was a reason Grandma told us to leave them far from the the Breakfast/Dinner Table...:) ). I care not what one chose to believe or not believe. I don't believe in the whole Creation scenario, that does not mean I can't find other good things in the Bible, the Torah, or any other religion or philosophy. The true quality of a person, whether religious or not, is born, when they learn to transcend the prejudice, the ignorance and the hate. Every society can be judged on how it treats the least of it's citizens; what I see from far too many that proclaim Christianity, is a disdain for those that bear the burden of poverty and want. Some day, we all may get above this, but probably not in my lifetime.

[Kosmo]

28. Not only does it muddy the waters,

it also cheapens them both. Religion and politics are on either ends of an idealogical spectrum. One is democratic in nature, the other is, well it is worship. Both are a noble pursuit but for two different purposes. One answers the questions of this world and the other speculates about the next. That is why injecting a political debate with theology is contradictory. But it sure fires up the red states.

[BrklynLiberal]

29. Separation of church and state-an essential principle of what this country is supposed to be all

about...

[harun]

35. Separation of church and state, not separation of religion and state

No atheist will ever be president of this country, and for good reason.

[flying rabbit]

37. What good reason?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

42. Knock, knock... helloooo? What good reason? (n/t)

[BrklynLiberal]

44. DUH! Still waiting for the answer...WHAT good reason? HELLLLOOOOOOO

[Arugula Latte]

67. So you don't want someone rational to run the country? How telling. n/t

[NMMNG]

74. You're probably right

Because the religious bigotry is far too strong to ever let that happen.

[IsItJustMe]

30. There was a congressional race here a few years ago where the candidates were actually arguing over

which one was the Sunday school teacher the longest at their respective churches.

This made me feel much as you do, and made me ask, WHAT THE HELL HAS GONE WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY?

Something bad wrong!!!!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. By you, maybe, but not by the Democratic candidates.

Any candidate who appears in any way hostile to Christianity will not win a presidential election in America in the forseeable future. It's that simple.

What the Democrats need to do is to preserve the separation of Church and state in as mild-mannered and pro-Christian a fashion as possible.

Any sentence including both the words "fuck" and "religion" would be suicidal.

[Fearless]

34. Check this out ... New Rules- Bill Maher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVwiGzJq2k&feature=related

"No one should be disqualified (because of their religion), even the funny ones... Like all of them" -Bill Maher

[Solon]

38. The problem is that these elections are turning into a "I'm more Christian than you." contest...

I find that to be disheartening, to say the least.

[RiverStone]

39. imagine no religion

I wish it were true per John Lennon....

But as far as mixing it with politics, I wish folks could just keep their own beliefs to themselves. To assume anything else nothing but arrogance.

K&R

[Roland99]

40. Have Kucinich, Biden, Dodd, Gravel mentioned God?

I think everyone else has, multiple times.

[K Gardner]

52. No, because they're not Pandering.. good point. n/t

[T Wolf]

55. I know that DK is very religious (in the good sense) that he is compassionate

and takes to heart the teachings of his faith that emphasize taking care of people. In speeches I have heard him make, this comes across very clearly - actually a little too much for my taste, but that is my own prejudice.

But, he does not push the "mine is better than yours" shit that the fundies and repukes do.

[Ron Green]

77. No, but God mentioned Biden.

He spoke to me this week, told me to support Joe.

[Cameron27]

43. Yea!

I sick of it myself. :applause:

[Stinky The Clown]

45. Bravo!

K&R

[drexel dave]

46. I grew up in Southern Baptist Appalachia

and the Southern Baptist Church is referred to as the third-arm of the government there, and throughout much of the south.

What I viewed from the eyes of a preacher's son was a pack of wolves hungry for more politics than Jesus.

[Vickers]

48. Dude, you're like totally going to hell!!!111!!11!!!!!!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[quiethm75]

49. I agree!

[connecticut yankee]

50. Amen, Brother!

[thunder35]

62. agree

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ConfidentialStatus]

65. Don't forget the other big cult

The "Government" many people worship this organization to control them.

[windoe]

57. America is not a theocracy,

we are a free Republic.

** Anyone looking forward to Armageddon should not be leader of a superpower**

Zeitgiest rocks as a movie, saw it!

[benld74]

58. AMEN, I MEAN YEAH MAN!

[mtnsnake]

59. Fuck religion in politics is right!

:thumbsup:

[mantis49]

70. Here, Here!

:toast: and :kick:


I, too, am sick of it.

[krabigirl]

72. Me!! I am so sick of it!!! It has to stop!

[Hieronymus]

79. Willard Romney's speech was a god damned joke. Freedom requires

religion and religion requires freedom? What asinine bull shit.
He was careful to point out that he, as a Mormon, could be just as bigoted as other Christians. No JFK there.