So BOTH Hilary and Edwards don't sign a letter about torture...

[joeybee12]

...and the flame thread here is all about and solely about Hilary not signing it. Hmm...

[AX10]

1. As RFK jr. said, there is an unjustifyable blind hatred of Hillary

on the left.

[earthlover]

8. I think there is also an unjustifyable blind hatred of the left by Hillary Land

And especially towards the Obama followers.

If Hillary is so good, why don't the Hillary folks just cut the bullshit and tell us how good Hillary is?

Better yet....go ahead and continue to bash fellow democrats, spread mud even though you said you wouldn't and attacked Edwards in a debate directly for mudslinging....and keep the present course going its way!
See where that gets you!

Hillary and Co are looking more and more desperate by the minute!

Instead of whining about blind hatred of Hillary and calling everyone who doesn't support Hillary as their first choice in the primaries "Hillary haters"....maybe Hillary should just give us some reasons to be FOR her instead of demonstrating the arrogance that she is the only one experienced enough to do the job.

This is the one thing the Hillary campaign has never done all along. At first they said she was "in it to win"....not exactly a reason to follow her. Her gaggle of supporters played the inevitable them for what it was worth, pretty much inundated us with polls showing her ahead, and disparaged her opponent as not ready yet for the big time.

All the while she wasn't showing us why we should vote FOR her! She pretty much took that for granted and thought it was self evident.

Even now, she reacts to her electoral woes by going on the attack instead of giving us a reason to support her.

This comes across as arrogant and reaks of a sense of entitlement. Her anger is evident at anyone who would dare to get in her way of what she thinks is rightfully hers.

Her supporters are trying to make the case that she knows how to face adversity. Her sliding poll numbers argue against that point. Maybe it is better we find out now she can't hold onto a lead than to find that out in november....

[maddiejoan]

9. Here ya go, sweety

http://hillaryclinton.com/?splash=1

[joeybee12]

10. Thank you for proving that poster's point.! n/t

[AX10]

13. Actually, it was Obama that started the attacks.

The far left has latched onto Obama because he is NOT Hillary. The blind hate that is shown for Hillary is absurd. Obama is not all that different on policy from Hillary. It's a matter of STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE. Obama speaks of "unity" with all including the GOP but goes on the attack against Hillary.
:wtf:
Very telling.

[earthlover]

15. Bullshit! I am not an Obama supporter, but I have noticed that Hillary herself...in JULY....

called Obama "irresponsible and frankly naive". I have watched with dismay at DU posters for months saying Obama is not ready for the big time yet. Another personal attack. And that was way back last spring/summer. So don't give me this bs that Obama started anything.

Obama has shown great restraint. And that is smart on his part because the Hillary camp has hung itself.

I go back to the point I was trying to make. If Hillary supporters would care to show why she is better, they are not even attempting to make their case.

All they seem to be wanting to do is bash Obama.

And in response to my post, all I see is more of the same.

How about showing us some reasons why Hillary is better? Not by just posting to her website. What a friggin copout! This is supposed to be a discussion group. So friggin discuss already! Tell me why Hillary is better. And don't trot out another cut and paste list of ratings by interest groups.

Don't you see that the negativity of the Hillary campaign is mostly responsible for its downturn? Go ahead and respond to my observation with more negativity. It will only illustrate my point.

[K Gardner]

2. I think we need to dig for FACTS about this issue before we post about it..

There are some indications that this was simply a letter sent out by a group and some of the candidates sent in letters, rather than signing a prewritten letter. We should find out exactly what is going on before jumping on it, IMO. I'd suggest that anyone with FACTS or LINKS post them in this thread. We need to get it right, about all our guys.

[maddiejoan]

3. as if signing it meant anything anyway

It's not like it's a legally binding document.

I'm quite satisfied with both Edwards' and Clinton's letters in response.

[Cameron27]

4. There's no hmmm,

it's flaming hypocrisy.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. No candidate for high office should ever sign ANYTHING in the way of a pledge

The only pledge is to the people.

[bullwinkle428]

6. It's like when Grover Norquist asked the Repukes for a personal pledge -

I'm surprised all of them were smart enough to decline it! :rofl:

[joeybee12]

7. Yup...you sign something from some obscure or perhaps

controversial person or group, and they come back later and said, "but by signing this, you meant..."

Edwards and Hilary are smart, if you ask me...but all the people saw was that Hilary didn't sign, she's Satan, and Edwards gets a pass. It's so insane here sometimes.

[bullwinkle428]

12. I'm satisfied with JE's official position, as stated on his website:

Say No to Torture

The Bush-Cheney Administration has undermined our standing in the world and endangered our own troops by sanctioning the use of interrogation techniques long considered torture. Edwards will protect our troops and our values by upholding the Geneva Conventions anywhere American security forces—military or civilian—are engaged. He will issue an executive order setting clear guidelines for interrogations and prohibiting torture. He will also ban the shameful practice of outsourcing torture to other countries through "extraordinary rendition."

[DemKR]

11. Remember, it's ALWAYS Hillary's fault n/t

This hypocrisy is giving us even more strength...

[sjdnb]

14. Actually Edwards responded before Obama or Hillary

Now, I'm still holding out for Gore, but this appears to be nothing more than someone hoping other DUers are lazy enough to just read and believe. While, perhaps, they did not sign someone else's pledge both responded 'in their own words'. And, Edward's letter, IMO, is actually stronger than the AFC's document. Now, maybe someone wants to 'read between the lines' to support their candidate ... but, these types of insinuations, that leave out pertinent information, seems rather Rovian to me.

Perhaps, there is reason to question Senator Clinton further, however, to imply that she is pro-torture, based on everything I've read so far is overreaching.

And, further, I think it is disingenuous, with regards to Edwards, given his letter and statements.

From the original thread 12/15/2007:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2473516

"Mrs. Clinton refused, however, to sign an anti-torture pledge that a liberal group, the American Freedom Campaign, had asked the presidential candidates to embrace.

All of the other Democratic candidates had either signed the pledge or, in the case of former Senator John Edwards and Mrs. Clinton, foregone the pledge while committing to an anti-torture position in letters to the group.

Mrs. Clinton’s position on torture has been under scrutiny since last week, when, in a Democratic presidential debate, she said torture “cannot be American policy, period.” She told the New York Daily News last year that she was open to a narrow exception to a torture ban to interrogate a terrorist and prevent “something imminent.” "

Per the organization's website:
http://www.americanfreedomcampaign.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=41

And, Senator Clinton's actual letter sent on October 4th
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/politics/05text-clinton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

THE AFC's list of respondents:
Former Senator John Edwards provided the American Freedom Campaign with a signed letter on September 13, detailing his commitment to defending the Constitution.
Senator Edward's letter
http://www.americanfreedomcampaign.org/storage/afagenda/documents/Edwards%20response%20-%20color.pdf

Senator Barack Obama (D-IL)
Senator Obama signed the pledge on October 2.
'Didn't bother to write a letter in response to the AFC' - an example of how I could spin this were I to take the same tact.

Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
Senator Hillary Clinton provided the American Freedom Campaign with a signed letter on October 4, detailing her commitment to defending the Constitution.

Additionally ...

Project VoteSmart
Political Courage Test 2008 Presidential Candidates
http://www.vote-smart.org/election_president_search.php?type=alpha

Announced Hillary Rodham Clinton Democrat No
Announced John Reid Edwards Democrat Yes
Announced Barack Hussein Obama Democrat No