We don't oppose Hillary because she is a woman anymore than those who oppose Obama because he is an

[Perky]

African-American.

The insinutaion that opposition to Hillary ia gender-based is insipid and juvenile misdirection. It's her politics, its her arrogance, it is the belief that the the last two decades of gotcha politics has been hamful for the country and we need fresh thinking. and new leadership.... it is alot of things. But it is not that she is a woman. ANyone who thinks that way, or diposes of her on that basis, or endorses her solely on that basis has no credibility in my mind.

You want us to engage in a healthy debate on the merits of her candidacy that's fine but don't come at us with either "you hate her becasue she is a woman" or the equally asinine view that we should support her merely becasue it is time to give a woman a chance.


Give us all a break.

[Bluebear]

1. "worman"

Freudian? ;)

[hlthe2b]

3. LOL....my thoughts exactly

Me thinks the poster doth protest too much... :7

Damn that subconscious--always gives ya away....

[Perky]

6. I suspect so.....LOL

[JAbuchan08]

39. What's the slip?

That the original poster subconciously thinks she has a vestigal (r) in her identity. That worman sounds a bit like WARman or WORMan? I don't understand.

[maddiejoan]

2. Her politics and supposed "arrogance" --

-- are virtually indistinguishable from the other two 'top tier'.

So why single out Hillary?

Why don't YOU give us a break.

[Perky]

4. I will never vote for anyone based on their race or gender.

[maddiejoan]

7. Nobody is asking you to.

I'm certainly not.

But you why do feel Hillary is more 'arrogant' than either Edwards or Obama?

[havocmom]

48. The 'top tier' have some differences regarding backers and support for public financed elections

over lobbyist financed elections

Who owns your candidate

Two DEM candidate stand with GOP candidates in refusing to put in writing, a commitment to try and push public financing of election campaigns

[maddiejoan]

52. It's all smoke and mirrors

Edwards and Obama create a very narrow definition to paint themselves as above taking money from the wrong hands.

[havocmom]

57. Actual reported contributions and sources is smoke and mirrors? Huh?

Calling FACTS one doesn't like smoke and mirrors is what is smoke and mirrors. And the tactic of disparaging FACTS is a tactic we dislike when the neocons do it. Why would we stand for it here?

Somebody pu-leeez open a window to let the smoke out! I can hardly see the mirrors.

[Perry Logan]

5. You seem to hate her because you hate her.

[Perky]

9. I don't hate her I distrust her politics and I thin we need new blood.

A clinto whithoues means another 4 years of nothing progressive happening in this country,,,not because she is wright or wrong beut beasue she is a lightening rod.

She would be a step sideways if not backwards.

[aquart]

21. Hillary is NOT Bill's sister.

This blood thing is pure distortion. She's a WOMAN. She was BORN a Rodham woman. She doesn't take on Clinton DNA with marriage.

The dynasty meme is carefully crafted propaganda that attacks ONE person: the only serious woman candidate for president we have ever had. And it does it in such a way as the people who gag at the thought of powerful women never have to face what they really are.

Keeps your hands clean, as it were.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. American Heritage Dictionary

dy·nas·ty (dī'nə-stē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. dy·nas·ties

A succession of rulers from the same family or line.
A family or group that maintains power for several generations: a political dynasty controlling the state.

I don't see anything about blood or DNA there. When you marry someone, by law and custom you become part of the same family.

[goodgd_yall]

59. The Dynasty argument is a joke

Leave it to an American to think 2 people from the same family (and "family" used very loosely) who share the same office and separated by a nonfamily member's term in office constitutes a "dynasty." Tell it to the Brits.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. Well then the "we should vote for Hillary because of Bill" argument is also a joke then.

Since her campaign should have nothing whatsoever to do with his Presidency, right? Otherwise, that would be admitting that you are advocating for a dynasty. Yet a substantial percentage of people are supporting her because of him. How do you justify that?

To be honest with you, I'm not a proponent of the dynasty argument WRT Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton because I don't believe that the Bushes and Clintons are the same, not by a long shot. However, when it comes to the families as separate entities, I DO have a problem with each of them attempting to monopolize the Presidency. George W. Bush was CLEARLY not the most qualified person for the top job in the U.S. Yet he got where he was solely because of his family. In the case of Hillary Rodham Clinton, while she is light years above GWB in terms of brains and talent, you cannot tell me that she just happens to be the most qualified out of a stellar field of Democratic leaders. She is where she is today because she is the wife of Bill Clinton. If she gets the nom, I will support her and will be far more confident in her ability to lead than I ever was of Dubya's. But don't try to tell me that it's not nepotism and dynastism. Because it so obviously is.

[ccpup]

10. sounds like that to me

and I'm still thrown by Hillary's supposed "arrogance". Does the OP mean the arrogance of running for President? And, if that's the case, wouldn't that make ALL of the candidates equally arrogant as well?

Oops, sorry. I forgot we're working with someone who lives in an "I Hate Hillary" World where rules, fact and common sense don't apply. Hillary always equals Bad; everyone else always equals Good.

[earthlover]

41. It is arrogant for her supporters to think she is the only one entitled to be pres

And I see this attitude a LOT among her supporters.

People come off and say Obama is not ready to be pres, yadayada....that is arrogant as hell. They may think Hillary would make a better president, that is fine but to make the claim that he is not ready yet is way out there arrogant.

And Obama is not my candidate, btw. In case you arrogantly believe anyone who stands up for him must be one of his supporters.

Perhaps the most arrogant of all is the Hillary supportes who take any disagreement with Hillary, even pointing out poll results or campaign events, and call people "Hillary haters". Arrogant attitude in the extreeeeeeeeme.

[ccpup]

45. wtf?

I don't believe I, personally, said anywhere in my Post that I believe she's entitled to be President. And I don't believe it's unusual for people who support a candidate to believe they're "the best" choice" to sit in the Oval Office.

I also don't believe it's arrogant to express an opinion one has about whether or not THEY believe someone is "ready" to be President. It's an opinion and, like assholes, we all have 'em.

Arrogant attitude in the "extreeeeeeeeme"? Not really. But believe what you like. I really don't give a fuck.

[havocmom]

49. Yep, in too many cases, you are correct

and they really hate having it pointed out too.

[earthlover]

40. Why do you hate America? Why do you hate Hillary? Are you sure you are not a card-carrying Repub?

;-)

And mysogynistic to boot!

[havocmom]

50. Same ol tune, slightly different lyrics

:yourock:

[Cha]

62. You seem to throw that

word "hate" around, a lot.

[ruggerson]

8. In general, people here don't use vaguely racist terminology to describe Obama

they do, however, use coded sexist language with Hillary.

That's the difference that I notice.

[ccpup]

11. you're right

but don't you dare call anyone on it or you'll be accused of (fill in the nonsensical blank here).

[Kahuna]

There's nothing vague about saying Obama can't win because he's

black. :eyes: But I see it all the time.

You very seldom see Hillary can't win because she's female even though a female has never run or been elected president.

Maybe some wise DUer can explain the difference to me.


Wait! I almost forgot..... :sarcasm:

[Zodiak]

18. A few women have run for President

One of them in the 1800's.

The only way history will be made is if she wins.

[bunnies]

42. I think you missed the point of the OP.

I believe Perky was referring to the fact that non-Hillary supporters are often accused of being "anti-woman" while on the other hand non-Obama supporters are not accused of being racist.

[havocmom]

56. It isn't necessarily racist to point out that there is still way too much racism out there

And that fact certainly does add an extra challenge to the Obama campaign.

There is still enough sexual stereotyping and misogyny to make being female an extra challenge for the Clinton campaign.

Not saying racism and sexism is right, just saying it still exists and are part of the reality we have to address. Sadly, it all is part of the equation to be considered.

The majority of Americans are NOT white guys. But there are still hurdles to overcome with segments of the population before our elected officials really do reflect the general population. Keep working for that end, but keep the reality in mind also.

[earthlover]

43. yup..;.nobody asked if Obama was a drug dealer, now did they?

ohhh...they did. oops!

[acmavm]

12. Well Perky, that should teach you. Do not try to be reasonable. Do not

try to honestly post why you oppose those two. Becaues the clairvoyants on this board damn well KNOW that you're lying.

You have no right to a personal opinion. They will assign one to you and you need to shut up and run with it.

[cali]

13. you really should stick to speaking for yourself

It's just mountain size denial to claim there's no sexism on DU.

[Perky]

17. I never suggested there was no sexism on DU

THere is no doubt some. but to assign that prejudice to those who support another candidate on that basis or by brad brush.... or to support Hillary on that basis is just as sexist.

It is not time for a femaleesident...it is time for a laeader who will inspire the country and lead us in a new direction. No one should be voted for or opposeed on the basis of their sex or race.

[cali]

22. I don't subscribe to voting for someone on the basis of gender

but there damn well has been sexism irt Clinton on DU. Pity you brush it off, and claim it doesn't enter the picture at all.

[aquart]

27. Cute. But we're only talking about sex right now.

"It is not time for a female president." Hear you loud and clear.

[Perky]

35. Never said anything close to that

I will gladly support Hillary is she is the nominee. I just think she is wrong for the country if we want to get out of Iraq and solve tghe big issue of enttitlement lik education, health care and retriement, I think she will be ineffective and polarizing as presidentand that has nothing to do with her gender.

[Bitwit1234]

14. Bullshit...

[goldcanyonaz]

15. You know who else was referred to as arrogant? Gore.

The voters found him too snobby to drink beer with. Let's hope we don't go down that road again this upcoming election. That's how we ended up with Bush.

[aquart]

25. No, it isn't.

Gore won. Bush lost. The Supreme Court gave him the election.

It is really painful to hear media lies repeated here on DU.

[goldcanyonaz]

31. Of course Gore won, but I meant in response to these claims about Clinton being arrogant.

The other side went down this path with Gore, and many said that they thought Bush was a better choice because he wasn't so "stuck up" and they rather drink with Bush.

Great litmus test for becoming President, huh..

[napi21]

16. Unfortunately, her being a woman does make a diff. to some.

What other candidate have you heard these things mentioned?

"the cackle laugh"
"shrill tone"
"blouse neckline too revealing"
"too many pantsuits"
"SHE would never be able to negotiate with the MEN of the ME"
"used the gender card"


I could go on with that kind of stuff. I know there are people who disagree with her on her politics, but there are more people who speak & think against her for reasons specifically because she's a woman, and that includes the MSM!

[aquart]

19. Aw, you're pretending it's six of one half a dozen of the other.

Sweetie, I know you don't like hearing it. Too damn bad. I don't like hearing a respectable, hardworking, caring, ambitious woman described as a shrill cackler, either.

If only you'd all disguised it just a little bit better. But you didn't.

[Diane R]

20. I totally agree. As a woman, and as a feminist, I'm going to vote for the best candidate. Obama.

[aquart]

23. Great! What's he done for women?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

30. Excellent record on reproductive issues, for one. nt

[aquart]

33. Uh huh. LINK?

Because all I know about are those "present" votes. Now I'm sure he's done so much more than that. Why can't you show me?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. Gosh, it must be paralyzing to be so lazy you can't google something yourself. Here:

Voting Record:
Sen. Obama received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.

2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent


http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/obama.html

[Forkboy]

51. He sucks. Why didn't he get %110 ?!?!?!

Sorry, been hanging out here too long. ;)

[Yael]

24. I would vote for a woman in a heartbeat. Just not that one.

[aquart]

26. I believe you! What woman would meet your standards?

We have to look to the future. Who do you see as the right woman for the American presidency? And for you, of course.

Oh, and what ARE your standards for a woman candidate?

[Yael]

36. Honesty, integrity and a smidgin (ok a WHOLE SHITTING LOT) less authoritarian

She talks to people like they are stupid or all 5 years old or something. Her entire personality grates on my very being.

:hi:

[goodgd_yall]

60. I bet it wouldn't grate on you so much if those same qualities came from a man

I could be wrong, but this is the kind of thing we who believe there is gender stereotyping going on are talking about.

[Yael]

66. Get over yourself. Nothing grates me more than an authoritarian talking

down to the "little people" and I don't give a flying shit what sex they are.

[pnwmom]

29. YOU don't, but there are plenty of people here who use misogynistic language

with regard to HRC (and Pelosi, and other women) who wouldn't dream of using racist language to put down Obama.

You can't convince me that those people -- at least on some level -- don't have issues with powerful women.

[Perky]

37. no more no less than those who support her solely because she is a woman.

That just as bad.

[pnwmom]

55. I have yet to see anyone who supports her SOLELY or even primarily because

she's a woman. But I think it's reasonable if that is considered one of the good factors in her candidacy. It would be wonderful if we finally had a woman President, or an African-American or Hispanic President.

I started out mostly supporting Obama, and I still really like him, as well as HRC and Edwards. But the more misogynistic comments I see or hear directed to HRC, the more the "B" word gets used, or people refer to her "cackle," the more I empathize with her as a woman -- and look forward to the day a woman finally breaks the ultimate glass ceiling.

[joeybee12]

32. Then stop saying she's shrill and she cackles...

...and stop bending over backwards trying to say using such terms is NOT sexist.

[ClarkUSA]

34. It's all Hillaryworld has because god forbid they try to defend her merits on the issues

Probably because she doesn't have any.

[Franc_Lee]

44. Like Hillary said, not because she's a woman but (at the time) because she was ahead...

Hillary said this herself now...!

[ecstatic]

46. People will always deny sexism/racism, but the data always seems

to prove otherwise. A lot of people act from subconscious cues.

[Perky]

47. Data?

[ecstatic]

61. Studies, etc.

:)

[Evergreen Emerald]

53. I think you are using a broad brush to paint why you do not support Clinton

But, lets face facts: the use of sexist insults and constant innuendos prove that some on this "progressive" board do not like her because she is a strong independent woman.

When you hear talk of her looks / the sound of her voice / her laugh / now that it is an attempt to reduce her to her physical being rather than extend to her the qualities of an intelligent, strong, powerful female.

[Blue_In_AK]

54. I agree, Perky. n/t

[Sparkly]

58. I don't judge why other people choose who to vote for.

If some people vote for her because she's a woman, that's their right.

If some people vote for Obama because he's black, that's their right.

If some people vote for Edwards because he's a southern white man, that's their right.

What bothers me is this insistence that there's no sexism -- no double-standard -- going on. Then they complain about her "politics" -- despite the fact that her policy proposals are nearly identical to Obama's and Edwards. Or about her "arrogance" -- which in a man would be called "pride" or "confidence." Or they pretend they're being told they "MUST vote for her because she's a woman and if you don't you're sexist" when that's really not what's being said.

[Cha]

63. Gender Schmender..

hillary and her bush enabling votes would suck if she were a man.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

64. That's exactly it.

Why can't people see that we're going to be in EXACTLY the same position we were in in 2004 if Clinton is the nominee? A pro-war Republican vs. a pro-war Democrat.