Do you want an apprentice, or a journeyman?

[grasswire]

Let's say the second floor of the house is sagging. Do you hire an apprentice, or a journeyman carpenter?

Let's say the medical tests show you need bypass surgery. Do you pick an intern to do the operation, or a board certified surgeon?

Let's say you're flying to a remote airport in bad icy weather. Do you hope your pilot is seasoned and wise, or will any pilot do?

Gee. Wake up. The house is on fire. The ship is sinking. The arteries are clogged. The plane's wheels won't go down. The water pipes have burst.

Get competent help. Nominate Joe Biden.




(cross posted to make a new thread, by request)

[medicswife]

1. This is a really great analogy.

You've done a good job here. Nice work.

[monmouth]

2. Ain't it the truth??? Great post...n/t

[1corona4u]

3. Excellent post and very true.

[zalinda]

4. I think Joe Biden would be wonderful

but, he would never make it in general. He doesn't excite like the top 3. Unfortunately, if you don't come off as a rock star, most Americans will not give you a second glance. Biden, Dodd and Richardson all have that problem. I would prefer any one of them over Clinton or Obama, but unfortunately we don't get to decide.

zalinda

[1corona4u]

5. Oh, I think he excites....

just wait.....;-)

[Steely_Dan]

6. Thanks for the post...

My very thoughts.

-Paige

[ginchinchili]

7. Very apropos. Those really wanting what is best for America...

will recognize in Joe Biden the qualities we currently need in a president. Nominating anyone else would be a mistake that could further cost our nation. We've had enough of playing games with our country's well being and we'd better get our fundamentals in order or nothing else is going to get done. Joe Biden's vision of America is a complete and detailed vision. It's not something scribbled down on the back of a napkin during a moment of brief inspiration.

[ginchinchili]

8. Very apropos. Those really wanting what is best for America...

will recognize in Joe Biden the qualities we currently need in a president. Nominating anyone else would be a mistake that could further cost our nation. We've had enough of playing games with our country's well being and we'd better get our fundamentals in order or nothing else is going to get done. Joe Biden's vision of America is a complete and detailed vision. It's not something scribbled down on the back of a napkin during a moment of brief inspiration.

[ginchinchili]

9. This should only be read once. Sorry about that. Brain glitch.

[nyc 4 Biden]

10. POTUS is a complex job that requires . . .

experience and competence among other things. Mo-Joe! Shake and Bake! :D

[Milo_Bloom]

11. He voted for the war.

I'll go with the intern over the surgeon with malpractice on his hands any day of the week.

[1corona4u]

12. Oh, good....

Maybe John Edwards can get you a cool 25 million too!
PUNT>>

[Milo_Bloom]

15. Wouldn't vote for John Edwards either.

[1corona4u]

17. No, but he could still be your attorney

when they take out your spleen accidently.....let me guess....you're a Kooch supporter...:eyes:

By the way, no need to answer. I've had my fill of stupid fucking arguments today.

[Milo_Bloom]

18. I would vote for DK, but not a supporter.

I still wouldn't go with a pilot who has previously crashed planes either.

[monmouth]

13. Perhaps you should refrain from voting then...Your statement is

nonsensical...

[Milo_Bloom]

16. Of course i am voting... just not for a war candidate.. EVER.

[LittleClarkie]

29. Which, of the front runners, leaves Obama. Who didn't have the chance to vote either way

and so can say what he wants about how he would have voted.

Eh. Not that helpful.

[ClarkUSA]

31. Obama was running for the Senate when he made his 2002 speech opposing IWR

And he was considered quite the underdog against the multimillionaire DC establishment choice, so his courage and integrity in speaking out
is noteworthy, considering public polling at the time had 80% of Americans favoring war.

Helpful.

[Milo_Bloom]

42. Very helpful...

In that he hasn't disqualified himself like Clinton, Biden, Dodd or Edwards.

[LittleClarkie]

45. He didn't have the chance to

Now if he'd have been there, and voted no, like my Senator Feingold, that would be something different. But he wasn't, and didn't.

I don't consider the vote a disqualification all by itself. I have to consider the person as a whole and how political I think their vote was.

[Milo_Bloom]

51. For me, it is a disqualification all by itself...

Either they did it for political reasons, which means they have no principles.

OR

They didn't understand their job as a check/balance on the executive branch, which means they have no brains.

OR

They didn't do the 10 minutes of research it would have taken to tumble the entire house of cards that was bush's excuse for the war vote, which means they are lazy.


There is no scenario in which a war vote is excuseable.

[ginchinchili]

36. No one can convince me that Obama would not have voted in favor of the Iraq war...

if he was senator at the time. He's too ambitious and careful. It's a very convenient position for him to safely take.

[Two Americas]

55. so did we all, in a way

There is, I believe, a shared responsibility for the mess we are in. The luxury of being able to sort out everyone into the good guys camp and the bad guys camp has run its course. We are all in it together now, and all of us could have done more to prevent it. The work ahead leaves no more time for the critic on the sidelines, washing his hands of the mess and standing in judgment.

[Milo_Bloom]

58. Sorry, but no.

Some of us knew better. Some of us knew that in September Iraq had agreed to unconditional inspections, so we knew people like Clinton were lying when they said their vote was to force inspectors in.

Some of us knew that an actual weapons inspector had come forward (Scott Ritter) and publicaly announced that there were no WMDs in Iraq.


The responsibility for this mess falls squarely on 2 sources... The Bush Administration and Those who Enabled It.

The real question to ask is why did these Senators vote DOWN the Levin Amendment, which would have required bush to come BACK to congress before going to war?

Biden voted against it, Clinton voted against it, Dodd voted against it, Edwards voted against it.

Even if you want to forgive the vote on the IWR, the vote AGAINST the Levin amendement cannot be forgiven as that was a complete abdication of their powers as a check/balance on the executive branch.

[Two Americas]

59. knowing better

"Knowing better" is the consolation prize, and has been for 35 years. Once we can see that "knowing better" is part of the problem, an important and essential component in preserving the status quo, things can begin to change.

"Knowing better" is self-indulgent, and self-indulgence is the zeitgeist of the corrupted and immoral path we have been on. "Knowing better" is divisive. It is aristocratic. It is alienating and isolating. It is lonely and frustrating. It is Hell.

Listen better.

"Knowing better" is dead and lifeless. It is what we embrace when we have given up. It is a way to withdraw. Once we think we know, we stop growing and learning and living.

Love better.

We are right. "Right" means true, honest, real, certain. That means "inevitable." We no longer need to cringe and cower in the world of merely knowing better.

Do better.

I don't want to accept the consolation prize anymore. I don't care about what I know, I want to learn what I don't know.

We are better than this.

People are suffering. Knowing better is no longer enough, and can no longer be justified.

[Milo_Bloom]

60. Knowing better is how you judge those in power.

If individuals known better than their elected officials, the elected officials need to be removed.

[kad7777]

14. On the money grasswire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUC8LeZ1hM4

[grasswire]

19. I don't want a president who has to rely on advisors...

....who weren't ELECTED. Advisors are important to a point, but the POTUS must have enough experience and knowledge to know what he doesn't know. After watching Bush's advisors bring this country to near ruin, I want the man with the power of the Oval Office to be able to stand on his own. That's Joe Biden, in this year's crop. A statesman, not a striver.

[1corona4u]

22. I share your sentiment.

[avrdream]

20. Nice analogies.

Biden is cool. I just don't think he is supported enough to get the nomination, though.

[SPKrazy]

21. what's in Joe's baggage though?

that's what worries me

:shrug:

[1corona4u]

23. Nothing that hasn't already been vetted to death.

The republicans have nothing on him. Neither does anyone else. Joe's not the kind of person to run from anything he has/has not done. He would address anything head on, and once he was finished, who ever was paying attention, would be a believer, because he always tells the truth, no matter how unpopular that is.

[youthere]

24. Here here!

[happyslug]

25. Every time I hear this I remember two War time Presidents.

One had been a Senator for years. Secretary of War before he was a Senator and had an excellent reputation as a Military Commander. The other a two term rx-member of the House of Representatives (two terms for HE LOST HIS RE-ELECTION EFFORT). Loser of his only race for the Senate. A political Hack who abandoned his party when it was down. Constantly being accused of being a drunk (Through was not, but did suffer from the start of syphilis insanity).

Given the above, why would you NOT prefer Jefferson Davis over Abraham Lincoln? Davis had the resume and the Experience, but lack the POLITICAL ABILITY, while Lincoln lack experience in Government and the Military (Except as a Militia Captain during a short time Indian War, while Davis had lead his Mississippi Rifles into Combat in the Mexican War), Lincoln knew Politics and HOW to get things done. When people talked of running Grant in 1864, Grant told them to replace Lincoln would be the worse thing that could happen in the war, for grant saw the politician in Lincoln and knew that is how you win.

This was in many ways the North's greatest advantage over the South, an overall better political leadership who knew how to rule (including how to rule with an opposition even in war time, the South reverted to one party rule, the North had an active opposition party that Lincoln used to keep hi own party in line AND to make sure he always had majority support for his war aims.).

My point is experience does help, but being a Politician is more important. Can you deal with people who OPPOSE to what you are doing? As a litigator (like Lincoln) Edwards had to do just that. Edwards had to do so when he ran and won his Senate Seat. Biden has been in the Senate for many years, but rarely did he do anything OUTSIDE the Senate. He has experience in many fields, but I doubt any with dealing with people who actively oppose what he wants to do. That is the sign of a Great Politician, that is why most have been lawyers, not do to understanding the law, but having to deal with people. Edwards look like a person who understand people and how to work with people who support him AND to handle people who oppose his program.

[1corona4u]

28. Bullfucking shit.

Get your facts straight. Go find out who Biden is before you go shooting your mouth off.

John Edwards will NEVER, I repeat, NEVER hold a candle to Joe Biden.

BY THE WAY, JOE BIDEN WAS AN ATTORNEY BEFORE HE WAS IN THE SENATE. HE WAS ALSO A PUBLIC DEFENDER. HE FOUGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS. HE'S ALSO A PROFESSOR.

[SoxFan]

26. It's spring training

Who do you want in your rotation, a disgraced has-been like Roger Clemens or a talented rookie like Clay Buchholz?

[grasswire]

33. are you accusing Joe Biden of taking steroids?

Really?

[SoxFan]

46. No roids, no HGH

That weave is a different matter, though!

BTW, I love Joe Biden, and certainly didn't mean to compare him to Roger.

[youthere]

27. Kicking

[superkia]

30. Pssst, its a LITTLE different, the president has people around...

him doing work in various positions. I think we need to look at where the candidates have stood on the IMPORTANT issues, war, health care, the constitution, this whole "experience tactic" means nothing to me, its a word. I like Biden for being pretty straightforward but he still hasn't answered some big questions for me. When Dennis Kucinich went to the floor and spoke to them, he went into how the evidence was all outdated and that the war was about oil and HE voted no. Why did Biden ignore Kucinich, the lack of evidence and instead jump on the Bushco-Clinton team and start spreading the fear mongering propaganda about Saddam, Al-Quieda and Iraq, when 9/11 wasn't connected? That is a very important question that will tell us who they are, why did they WANT war? Be honest and tell us the truth or will the truth open up too many cans full of worms?

Those who voted for war and kept voting to give more ammo to kill, need to let us in on what their agenda was, why did they ignore the truth and allow so many lives to pissed away like our lives mean nothing. Just put yourselves in the shoes of the dead or their families and ask why your vote should go to someone that will kill to achieve their agenda but wont even have honor and tell the truth about what their goal was? Are we that stupid?

I am a Kucinich supporter but have allot of respect for Edwards coming out and trying to tell the American people that our politics and government are corrupt, the game is rigged. What do you think he means by that? Remember he has been to a Bilderberg meeting, so he has a good perspective on the bigger picture that none of us will ever be a part of. Just think, only 100 to 200 people are invited to the meetings and most have been there previously, so not too many new people will ever see what Edwards has seen. Clinton, Dodd and Richardson have also been but have yet to make that stand and call it for what it is...rigged.

[1corona4u]

32. Why in the hell would you inject DK into a Biden thead?

Desperate for attention?

Vote for DK, who gives a shit if you want to waste your vote.

Yes, to answer your question, people are stupid.

[superkia]

34. You need to grab more than a corona, you seem upset?

I didn't mean to say anything that would affect you personally, thats not what the board is for but if things are tough for you in your home life or you have had a bad day, you may want to avoid contact with the public. Many people suffer from stress and depression, its very common so it best to keep our blood pressure and stress level to a minimum. No need for anger on a political board like DU, we have more things to worry about in life, REAL issues not COMPUTER issues.

Enjoy the rest of the evening.:toast:

[1corona4u]

35. I am upset....

I am tired of all the baseless attacks on Joe, I'm tired of the media discounting him, and I'm REALLY tired of people suggesting that candidates that have been in politics a fraction of the time Joe has, are somehow more qualified to run this country.

I was a district manager for half of my life, and I hired people all the time. Never, in my career, did I hire someone who was NOT qualified to do the job, or had no experience. They either had the qualifications, or they didn't. There is no grey area.

There was no "hoping" they could do the job, or thinking they could do the job, because MY job depended on ME being right about the decisions I made, with the company's best interest in mind. That decision was based on THEIR qualifications, experience, and their HISTORY.

[Kucinich4America]

38. Waste my vote?

How is it a "waste" to vote for a candidate who actually is willing to stand up against the agenda which has FUCKED UP THIS COUNTRY??

Perhaps it's Not A Concept that some understand as well as others. Maybe Because it's Not Among their candidate's priorities

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Americas]

37. my choice

Since we don't live in a dictatorship - which in essence is what the OR and the airplane cockpit are and should be, for example - I want the person who can best motivate, inspire and organize all of the people, including all of those whose skills will be needed to get the job done - the apprentice, the journeyman, the intern, the surgeon, the pilot.

But most importantly, all of the forgotten ones - rather than just the surgeon, the nurses. Rather than just the pilot, the mechanics.

By the way - I am very impressed and inspired by Biden and have nothing but respect for the Biden supporters and the way they are taking the high road.

The argument you are using here would have precluded Abraham Lincoln from consideration for the presidency.

[grasswire]

40. the world is a bit more dangerous than Lincoln's

Loose nukes in Pakistan could mean the annihilation of millions of people in an eyeblink. A confederate cannon's target was infinitely more limited and the threat of a war touching citizens moved no faster than a horse could run.

In other words, apples and oranges.

[Two Americas]

43. not really

Moral character and vision are unchanged, then and now. Do you think that any examples can be drawn from history? Or is all of that obsolete and of no value to us today?

We certainly live in a more technocratic, hierarchical, credentialed and materialistic age. I am not sure that makes us safer.

I can't see that the size or scope of the weapons alters the principles and ideals we should adhere to. The people using the weapons are what matters, not how big their weapons are.

Letting fear influence our decisions seems to me to be the problem, not the solution. The Republicans will be running on the idea that we should be very afraid and therefore support them. I think we should steer clear of that tactic.

"We live in very dangerous times, so therefore support me" is weak, in my opinion. I prefer "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."

It is hard to imagine a more horrific bloodbath than the Civil War was. A person is just as dead no matter what killed them, a cannonball or a rocket, and a very high percentage of the soldiers in the Civil War were killed or maimed when compared to other conflicts, and a very high percentage of the population was in arms compared to other conflicts.

I am not dissing Biden, and I hate these candidate wars here.

[grasswire]

50. the point was............

....that in Lincoln's time, the POTUS had an advantage over today's POTUS. There was time to reflect, to pray or read, to consult advisors before making decisions that meant life or death for citizens. That doesn't exist in today's thermonuclear age.

[Two Americas]

54. thanks

There is merit to that. Still, even in Lincoln's day, decisions needed to be quickly made that could affect the lives of millions.

Given the man with the "football" right now, it is hard to imagine anyone who wouldn't be an improvement.

Biden is a strong candidate with many stellar skills and admirable qualities and his supporters have been the best around here, so my criticism was not of you or Biden, but rather I was questioning the wisdom of this particular approach to promoting his candidacy.

I still maintain that in this age we need the same qualities of leadership that we needed in any age. Sure, events moved more slowly in the past, but so did communications and therefore responses to events. Yes, there was more time to consult with advisors, but it took more time to gather them and putting plans into motion was slower. Yes, fewer people could be killed in a minute, but then thousands could be killed before word got back and orders could be changed, and armies went out of communications altogether for long stretches of time.

A classic example of this was the mix up about the ships sent to Charleston before the war started. It took but an instant to sign the faulty order, and once it was gone there was no retrieving it, even though it took a couple of days for the mistake to unfold. It doesn't matter if events move slowly if communications and control move just as slowly.

By the way, Lincoln was under constant and intense pressure every minute he was in the White House, and the fate of millions of people was on his shoulders.

[Mythsaje]

53. I'm so glad you decided to start posting...

You have a very balanced, nuanced view I think this place sorely needs at times.

[Two Americas]

56. thanks much, Mythsaje

Coming from you I consider that a real compliment. I was just thinking today "how does Mythsaje crank out so much good stuff in such a short amount of time?" You make a tremendous contribution here and I have been a reader and a fan for a while now. Keep up the good work.

[Tashca]

41. Is this a trick question?

I didn't think so...I'll choose Journeyman Biden. Anyone can find an exception to any rule. Joe is the real deal and we need him now...

[Marrah_G]

44. I agree with your post- Biden has my vote so far

[1corona4u]

47. K

[jillan]

48. k/r for the best post of the day!

[gateley]

49. Well done, grasswire! Thanks!! nt

[1corona4u]

52. I'll take the Journeyman please.

[youthere]

57. Kicking