Where is the candidate willing to stand up to the establishment and demand Pelosi put impeachment

[ProSense]

back on the table? There is a lot of talk about candidates for change and courage, why isn't the demand to impeach Bush and Cheney on the lips of every candidate?

Impeachment is popular and justified.


Courageous or stupid to rock the boat? Other reason not to?


TPM´s Great List of Scandalized Administration Officials... Indicted / Convicted/ Pled Guilty (more)

[ProSense]

1. Kick! n/t

[ProSense]

2. Kick for comment!

[MaineDem]

3. None of them will...

Except perhaps Kucinich.

[ProSense]

5. Thanks for responding! n/t

[LWolf]

4. Kucinich, obviously.

I guess I don't understand your question. Since he is the candidate that has introduced articles of impeachment into the house, TWICE, in the face of opposition from his own party, it seems obvious which candidate is willing to stand up to Pelosi and put impeachment on the table. He already has.

Is there some reason why you don't want to give him credit for that, or don't consider him a "candidate?"

Or do you mean "which candidates for the house," looking for new blood to support the effort?

[Golden Raisin]

6. Hanging out with the invisible candidate

who is publicly and loudly decrying every day and every chance they get the fact that America under the Bush regime is a nation of torturers. Hanging out with the invisible candidate who is publicly and loudly decrying every day and every chance they get the fact that America under the Bush regime now has a privately-paid army of (Blackwater) stormtroopers. The list of Bush sins goes on endlessly --- take your pick. And this goes for the Republican candidates as well. We're all Americans and our country is going down the toilet while the politicians continue to kiss babies, smile and publicly ignore/turn away from the tragedy before all our eyes.

[onenote]

7. Popular? Not according to the poll you cited.

The poll you cite to indicates that only 34 percent think chimpy should be impeached and removed from office. 36 percent don't even think he's abused his powers, and the remaining 30 percent are split between those that think he's abused his powers but not to the point that warrants impeachment and those that think that chimpy's actions rise to the level of impeachable offenses but still don't want him impeached. All together, 2/3 of voters, per the poll you cite, don't support impeachment.

Which probably explains why no candidate has come forward demanding impeachment (other than DK, who still hasn't actually proposed impeaching chimpy).

http://americanresearchgroup.com/impeach/

[ProSense]

8. "Fifty-two percent say...Cheney...abused his powers, with 43 percent supporting impeachment." It's

popular enough!



As far as petitions go, this one is strong:

141,387: The number of Americans who, as of 1:00 PM today, have signed on to Rep. Robert Wexler’s (D-FL) online petition demanding congressional impeachment hearings for Vice President Dick Cheney.

[onenote]

9. or more, precisely, 43 percent support impeaching cheney and 57 percent don't

Among independents its 66 against impeachment and 34 percent for, which again helps explain why candidates, who want to keep their powder dry with independents, aren't pushing for impeachment even though Democratic party voters support it overwhelmingly.

[ProSense]

10. Incorrect:

A total of 70% of American voters say that Vice President Dick Cheney has abused his powers as vice president. Of the 70%, 26% (18% of all voters) say the abuses are not serious enough to warrant impeachment, 13% (9% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses, but he should not be impeached, and 61% (43% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses and Mr. Cheney should be impeached and removed from office.

link

[onenote]

11. no, correct.

Taking a percentage of a percentage is a statistical gambit designed to inflate the results, but it ignores the true measure of the "popularlity" of impeachment. Yes, of those that think cheney has abused his powers, 61 percent think he should be impeached and removed from office. But that ignores the 30 percent of all voters (and 26 percent of independent voters) that don't think he's committed abuses and thus don't think he should be impeached.

Why not just go all the way and argue that of the 52 percent of the voters that think cheney has committed impeachable offenses, over 80 percent think he should be removed from office. Or that 100 percent of those that think he should be impeached think he should be removed from office. Those are no more valid measures of the popularity of impeachment than the gamed numbers that take a percentage of a percentage that excludes everyone who doesn't even think cheney has committed abuses.

I personally believe cheney has committed impeachable offenses and would like to see him impeached and removed from office. But the question was why no candidate (other than DK) is pushing this -- and the answer can be seen in the numbers in that poll --- because overall, its not that popular an idea. This shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. If it had been a popular idea, candidates for congress in 2006 would have made impeachment part of their campaign "platform". But, in fact, virtually no candidate did so, and of the few that did, most lost (although to be fair, they probably would have lost no matter what their positions were).

[ProSense]

12. A percentage of a percentage, still

13% (9% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses, but he should not be impeached,

61% (43% of all voters) ay the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses and Mr. Cheney should be impeached and removed from office.

You lump the 9% into the 57% who say no, I group them with the 43%, which means that 52% would likely support impeachment or could support impeachment.

Only 18% of all voters don't believe the offenses are impeachable.

The group supporting impeachment or who believe the crimes are impeachable is by far the majority.

Still, this is popular enough (and warranted), especially in comparison to Nixon.

[onenote]

13. no, again.

Again, you ignore the 30 percent who don't think that offenses have even occurred. That 30 percent, plus the 18 percent that don't think that they're impeachable equal 48 that are definitely out of the picture. You lump the 9 percent who say that they don't support impeachment (even though they think the offenses are impeachable) with those who support impeachment, but that simply ignores what their position is, which is that they don't support impeachment.


The group supporting impeachment or who believe the crimes are impeachable is the majority (not by far, but rather by a narrow margin of 52/48. But the group not supporting impeachment represents an even greater majority of 57/43 over those who do support impeachment. And no amount of numbers juggling can change that.

If you polled all americans and found that 70 percent don't like brussel sprouts, 10 percent like brussel sprouts if served with butter and 20 percent liked brussel sprouts if served with cheese, you could argue that of those who like brussel sprouts a substantial majority (66 percent) like them with cheese. But it doesn't mean that brussel sprouts are popular, with or without cheese.

I wish it was otherwise, but again, the question was why candidates don't support impeachment and the answer is that its not that popular. And while there is more suppport for impeaching cheney than chimpy, the fact is that most members of congress don't see much point in impeaching the vice president 11 months before the elections. Maybe that's not exactly a profile in courage, but its based on their belief, which I suspect is right, that not pushing impeachment isn't going to cost them in the election, while pushing for it might.

[ProSense]

14. No I didn't

30% Cheney has not abused his powers as vice president.
18% Cheney has abused his powers ..abuses are not serious enough to warrant impeachment.
9% Cheney has abused his powers...impeachable offenses.
43% Cheney has abused his powers...should be impeached and removed from office.

48% no abuse or not serious enough
52% impeachable


However you slice, it a significant majority of Americans believe he abused his power and the largest group believes those offenses are impeachable.

I would argue that along with the 43% who want Cheney removed from office, the other 9% would not complain if impeachment went forward.

What we also don't know, as in the case of Nixon, is how many are simply unaware of the severity of the abuses and would shift from the 48% to the 52%?

Still, as I said in the OP, 43% definitely wanting a vice president to be impeached and removed from office is popular support.

[onenote]

15. let's try a different approach

again, the starting point is why aren't Democratic candidates coming out in favor of impeachment. My contention is that they aren't making it an issue because they don't see any gain from it, which suggests that its not really such a popular idea.

We know from the ARG poll that there is enormous support among Democrats for impeaching cheney, yet only DK has pushed for cheney's impeachment and there is no sign that his doing so has resulted in a surge of support for his candidacy. Why? Because impeachment's popularity, even among Democrats is overrated. Even those who support it apparently don't support it so strongly as to make it a determinative factor in who they support for president. And if that's true for Democrats, its probably even more true for independents.

And its not because DK's campaign doesn't get the same media play as other candidates. If impeachment was really a burning issue for most Democrats, its likely that they would be aware of what was going on with the issue and, thus, presumably would be aware of DK's efforts. More plausibly, Democrats who are interested enough in the election to have picked a candidate don't care so strongly about impeachment to hold it against a candidate that they aren't supporting impeachment.

And unless and until the candidates see support going to someone who does push for impeachment, they have no incentive to change their positions.

[ProSense]

16. It's not whether or not Democratic voters are making it a priority, it's a question of leadership

Among Democrats:

6% Cheney has abused his powers...impeachable offenses.

63% Cheney has abused his powers...should be impeached and removed from office.

With 69% of Democrats believing the offenses are impeachable (63% wanting him removed from office), this would be an great issue to show leadership on, but as you implied, there is no incentive to do so because silence is the safe position. It would be risky to move out front on the issue, and even more risky for candidates who are currently members of Congress. That's basically it.

[suston96]

17. Impeachment won't work - never has - always partisan driven.

The impeachment process is running neck and neck with the electoral college as the two most insane and most corruptible mandates in the US Constitution.

I applaud the candidates of both sides for staying away from becoming involved and avoiding the senseless distraction of a process that does not work.

[ProSense]

18. Kick! n/t