It's getting ugly out there -- Biden memo rips Edwards

[snowbear]

MSNBC 4 minutes ago
From NBC’s Domenico Montanaro
Edwards, electable? Not so much, according to a blistering memo out this afternoon from Biden Communications Director Larry Rasky.

“he evidence that Edwards is more electable is at best thin and is probably misleading,” Rasky writes in the memo, which reads more like it is straight out of the RNC's research shop. “The first question mark is that Edwards was unlikely to hold onto to his North Carolina Senate seat in 2003 when he decided not to run for re-election. In short, if John Edwards is so electable, why couldn’t he be re-elected in his home state?”

He then hits Edwards for not carrying his home state as part of the Kerry-Edwards 2004 presidential ticket, and that they even lost Edwards’ home county.

“At the end of the day, despite repeated assurances, Kerry-Edwards also failed to win a single southern state,” Rasky writes. “So it’s understandable that this time around, even John Edwards’s own people are acknowledging his vulnerability: Rob Tully, a former state party chairman and Edwards backer, said “if he doesn't win Iowa or come very close this time, ‘we're done.’”

Continued > http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/31/541133.aspx

The mud is starting to fling big time with ALL the candidates..

[Cameron27]

1. This isn't mud,

Edwards has been touting his presumed electability, and Biden's calling him on it by laying out the facts.

[MalloyLiberal]

3. Bull..Biden is diong more shilling for Hillary, since he knows he can't win

[Cameron27]

4. Bull yourself

what's incorrect about that memo?

[Stop Cornyn]

6. Agreed. Let the Sec'y of State sweepstakes begin!

[Andy823]

45. Who is in the VP

Sweepstakes this week? :rofl:

[Stop Cornyn]

60. What does Biden bring to the ticket? He's clean and articulate, but is that enough?

[elleng]

87. The best Biden can do,

if not nominated, is to stay in Senate committee and influence matters as much as possible. The others will need as much foreign policy/diplomatic help as they can get.

[lisainmilo]

29. Exactly!

He and Hillary are good friends!

[sandnsea]

31. I think I predicted Dec 30

when the fire would turn to Edwards. I guess I was a day off.

[Andy823]

44. I agree

[FormerDittoHead]

76. That was my take as well. Hillary pulls the string. First Wes Clark, now Biden... n/t

[elleng]

86. COW SHIT!

Smells worse than bull shit.

You obviously don't know about the candidates; handicapped to evaluate them.

[BootinUp]

12. You are too

smart to be posting at this crazy place. lol.

[Cameron27]

22. Hey! I didn't see that sweet compliment.

How are you Jim? Crazy is one word for it :-)

[BootinUp]

25. better now

I had to recover from a major computer problem, I killed my motherboard Friday trying to clean a cooling fan. But its all back together again. :)

[Cameron27]

32. Oh boy,

this one's still in bad shape, well it's actually getting much worse. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and take it to Dell pretty soon.

[BootinUp]

41. I don't remember

what you said was wrong with it. I can't live without my 'puter. lol.

[Cameron27]

42. Well it still turns itself back on

after it's shut down, the battery won't recharge, and now it's starting to freeze up and it takes at least 3 re-boots to restart again. Oy.

[BootinUp]

46. Sounds like

you need a new battery and a clean install of software. I wouldn't wait too long. :pals:

[Cameron27]

48. I know, I've been putting it off too long,

but the last time Dell kept it for 2 months and returned it with the same problem. I'd better stop hi-jacking this thread now lol.

[Adelante]

18. It's not mud

Sometimes I wonder if these candidates are expected to campaign with their mouths taped shut.

[Cameron27]

21. I know

the delicate sensibilities around here make me laugh. It's politics and the least you can hope for is that the truth will come out now and then.

[1corona4u]

23. So true....

and Biden has stayed above the fray...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. It is all beginning to look like a mosh pit where the stage divers are wearing suits.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Somewhere, John Kerry is laughing

[IndyOp]

16. Okay, now that cracked me up!

Somewhere, John Kerry is laughing

:toast:

[MH1]

33. Whatever the pundits make up,

I'm sure John Kerry is quite happy he gave it a pass this time.

Ditto Al Gore.

[politicasista]

43. Yep n/t

[Cha]

70. And Dean? What's Dean

doing? :)

[msongs]

7. hardly out of "...the RNC's research shop." Facts are so inconvenient AND

and there is evidence that edwards' reelection as senator from NC in 2004 was in doubt. google is so handy.

Msongs

[tired_old_fireman]

36. Did you use google?

The exit polls from NC in 2004 showed Edwards would have won his senate seat back if he had chosen to run. That's what I found with google.

Also, John Kerry did not run ads in North Carolina. It's a little hard for a democrat to win in a red state without any advertising.

[PatSeg]

8. I don't see that as mud slinging

It is just addressing the idea that Edwards is more electable and it makes a valid point, though I'm sure there are those who might disagree.

[Cameron27]

11. Oh no,

he's just shilling for Clinton :sarcasm:

[1corona4u]

13. Yeah, me neither...

but it will be spun that way. I guess people can't state their opinons now, because it's mud slinging.

Oh well...

On edit; it also wasn't Biden that said this, but his communications director.

[AtomicKitten]

9. It's beginning to look like the candidates should wear a cup and helmet.

Happy New Year, Larissa!

[Didereaux]

10. Once again Biden looks at the facts and finds the truth...

...and the truth kills the discoverer nowadays. It signifies inteliigence, and the ignorant masses (yes that includes just as many Dems as Repugs and mental patients) fear intelligence more than anything else...race, politics, religion? Intelligence trumps them all as being most feared.

[bunnies]

14. Holy shit!..................... BIDEN ATTACKS!

Kidding of course. :evilgrin:

[Adelante]

15. I think it's okay to post the whole memo since it's from a campaign to interested parties

DECEMBER 31, 2007
TO: INTERESTED PARTIES
FROM: LARRY RASKY
COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR
BIDEN FOR PRESIDENT
RE: THOUGHTS ON ELECTABILITY

In the closing days of this race for the Democratic nomination for President, voters and reporters alike have heard former Sen. John Edwards make the same electability case over and over again. Edwards argues that with his southern roots he can compete in more states than any other Democratic candidate in the general election.

Last week in New Hampshire, Edwards said: “I think people want someone they know can win in the general election. I think the evidence is overwhelming that I’m very strong, the strongest general election data. . . . I’m the one Democrat who has won in a Red State, who can go into any place in America and be successful.”

However, the evidence that Edwards is more electable is at best thin and is probably misleading.

The first question mark is that Edwards was unlikely to hold onto to his North Carolina Senate seat in 2003 when he decided not to run for re-election. In short, if John Edwards is so electable, why couldn’t he be re-elected in his home state?

Indeed, Jennifer Duffy of the Cook Political Report noted at the time, “Edwards is not that strong.” Research 2000’s poll for the Raleigh News and Observer taken from July 13-16, 2003 showed that Edwards’s re-election number stood at 34 percent. In that same poll, only 45 percent of North Carolinians approved of Edwards’s job as their junior Senator.

Edwards fared no better as the Democratic Party’s Vice Presidential candidate in 2004. After being selected as John Kerry’s running mate, Edwards said, “I think we will be very competitive in the South, particularly in those states in which national Democrats need to be competitive to be successful.” Unfortunately, Edwards failed to carry his home state. Edwards lost his home county—Moore County—by more than eleven thousand votes, 24,714 to 13,555. He also lost his hometown by more than 300 votes, 506 to 191.

At the end of the day, despite repeated assurances, Kerry-Edwards also failed to win a single southern state. So it’s understandable that this time around, even John Edwards’s own people are acknowledging his vulnerability: Rob Tully, a former state party chairman and Edwards backer, said “if he doesn't win Iowa or come very close this time, ‘we're done.’”

In addition, there are serious doubts about Edwards’ message. A recent Edwards ad asserts, “It’s time to tell the truth. These big corporations and their greed, they are stealing your children’s future. We will never change this country unless we are willing to take those people on.” Some are arguing that this will not go over well with general election voters. In a column, respected political analyst Stuart Rothenberg wrote, "Edwards certainly would dispute that there is an inherent contradiction between his populist rhetoric and his alleged middle class appeal. But his approach to problems is likely to frighten many voters, including most middle class Americans and virtually all Republicans."

So who has what it takes to carry the southern vote? Well, with so much riding on his southern electability argument, “native son” John Edwards actually fares only 4 points ahead of Joe Biden in the most recent Insider Advantage poll out of South Carolina. And if one thing is certain in the 2008 race, it’s that no Democrat will win using the same 20-plus-five strategy that has failed in the last two elections. In this general election, Joe Biden has set a 15-18 red state strategy, which not only sets him apart from the top tier, but gives him the most realistic shot at victory next November.

Furthermore, Joe Biden has historically and consistently won by large margins. In 1972, Joe Biden staged a huge upset, unseating two-term Sen. Caleb Boggs, a popular former congressman and governor. Since then, Joe Biden has consistently won re-election by over 15 percentage points, and always garnering more than 57 percent of the vote.

Sen. Biden’s victories have also come during times of strong Republican presence in the Delaware, in the form of both a Republican Senator (William Roth) and Republican Governors (du Pont, Castle and Wolf). Rep. Mike Castle consistently wins statewide, earning 57 percent in the last election. The Delaware State House has split leadership, with Democrats controlling the Senate and Republicans controlling the House.

These are the facts.

[Inspired]

20. I'll be seeing Rob tonight.

I am going to ask him about his comment that 'we're done'. It doesn't sound like something Rob would say.

[PatSeg]

27. Thanks

It helps to see it in context.

[lisainmilo]

34. Okay I get...Since Edwards is doing so well...

It's time to kill the only hope for a progressive win? Stay with the Corporate owned politicians, Stay with a corporate owned war....
Truth......

[Pastiche423]

83. "Stay with a corporate owned war..."

You really did not mean that, did you? Please correct me if I am wrong.

You are saying that johnnyboy is not "a corporate owned war" candidate? The same johnnyboy that not only voted for, but fucking co-sponsored the Iraq genocide? AND he's also got a hard on for a war w/Iran.

My apologies if I misunderstood.

[DemKR]

17. eek

[jillan]

19. it's about effen time! Go get 'em Joe - I'm proud of ya!

[SaveElmer]

24. Biden is absolutely correct...nt

[Pyrzqxgl]

26. Biden was my 2nd choice. He drops to about 5th.

I don't like mudslingers & I'm more solid than ever for EDWARDS

[1corona4u]

28. Yeah, right....like we were all born last night, LOL

It wasn't Biden that said it. However, I'm glad Larry said it.

And, by the way, John started slinging mud well before any of the other candidates did. Good thing he stopped so people could forget about it before the caucuses.

I can get links if you'd like. Just to show the hypocrisy of your "logic"....

[Adelante]

30. What mud is Biden slinging?

Seriously.

[PatSeg]

35. He's brought up electability before numerous times

and it wasn't viewed as mudslinging then. He also brought up Independents in a general election and that he was the most likely candidate to attract their votes.

[Adelante]

38. You would think he brought up the "love child" fer crissakes nt

[PatSeg]

39. Yeah, I think everyone is getting a bit touchy!

[tired_old_fireman]

40. It's a bullshit talking point aimed at the uninformed

Kerry did not run any ads in North Carolina. How could Edwards be expected to get Kerry a victory without the help of any advertising in a red state?

Also, the exit polls from NC showed Edwards would have won his seat back if he had chosen to run. Now, that doesn't make it fact, but it does mean he certainly had a good shot if he had chosen to be like Joey "two times" Lieberman and run for his Senate seat as a safety net while he also ran for Vice President.

[Pastiche423]

84. Did you live in North Carolina when johnnyboy was in the senate?

If not, then you have no clue as to how Tar Heels felt about johnnyboy. He would NOT have been elected.

[jillan]

37. hahahaha - that's a good one!

[Andy823]

47. Dang it

I went from Obama as my second to Biden, now I have to go for Dodd! Dang mud slingers! :spank:

[PatSeg]

49. Well after that, there is Graval

but he goes after all of them.

[lisainmilo]

75. Yep....

This isn't winning any second contenders for me.....Write in. (maybe Dodd 2nd)

[Horse with no Name]

50. Biden sucks. Pure and simple.

And he will lose if he is our candidate.
I wouldn't even buy a used car from that slippery bastard.
Another corporate whore afraid his gravy train is going to be hijacked.

[jillan]

52. You know what is interesting?

I feel the same way about your candidate.

[Horse with no Name]

54. Sweet. Another interesting fact.

That when Biden announced his candidacy...MANY here laughed. And are still laughing. The guy is a joke.
Have a blessed New Year.

[PatSeg]

56. Happy New Year!

Though I don't think too many people are laughing anymore.

[jillan]

59. Hope you have a wonderful New Year as well.

[1corona4u]

77. And when I heard John was running, I puked.

[Cameron27]

58. I second that opinion!

[PatSeg]

55. That's kind of silly

Biden doesn't have a gravy train, no stocks, no bonds - he is worth about $150,000 and refused to meet with lobbyists in the last 35 years.

[Horse with no Name]

61. Yet he enabled the motherfuckers on the bankruptcy bill to screw the average American

and voted to seat a whole slew of fascist judges.
Maybe he is just cheap--maybe he likes to screw people as a hobby--or maybe he does his business in the dark without any traces.

[PatSeg]

63. Now you've gone from silly to irrelevant

and very misinformed. But I still wish you a Happy New Year.

[Horse with no Name]

67. Too bad you beat me there when you chose Biden as your candidate

Hope it works out for you! Too bad he is poison to the average American.

[PatSeg]

71. Oh it will work out for me, thanks

It was a very clear-headed decision and one I don't regret.

[1corona4u]

78. LOL....

Ok....LOL

[Adelante]

82. Poison to the average American

* Edwards supported a bankruptcy bill that was vetoed by President Clinton. In 2000 John Edwards voted for the Bankruptcy Overhaul bill. While this bill included a slight increase of the minimum wage, its major design was to revise bankruptcy laws to make it easier for courts to force debtors to repay their debts, while before the law had allowed debtors to discharge their debt. 12 Democrats and 2 Republicans rejected this bill, including Chris Dodd, Ted Kennedy, Paul Wellstone, and Tom Harkin. President Clinton eventually vetoed this bill because it was too hard on debtors. (HR 833, Vote 5, 2/2/00; Des Moines Register, 3/16/01)

* Edwards voted for the same bill in 2001, again choosing financial interests over working families. In 2001 Edwards voted for a similar Bankruptcy Overhaul bill that again required Americans facing bankruptcy to undergo debt repayments instead of debt relief. Specifically, the bill required debtors able to pay $10,000 or 25% of their debts over five years to file under Chapter 13, which requires a reorganization of debts under a repayment plan, instead of seeking to discharge their debts under Chapter 7. Edwards voted with nearly the entire Republican caucus in supporting this bill, as well as voting to end debate on the measure. Chris Dodd voted to reject this bill, joining Senators Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Kennedy, Kerry, and Wellstone. In all, the bill was rejected by 13 Democrats and 2 Republicans. (S.420, Vote 36, 3/15/01; S.420, Vote 29, 3/14/01)

* Edwards would not allow relief for people who were forced into bankruptcy from medical bills. Edwards also sided with the entire GOP caucus to vote against the Wellstone amendment to the 2001 bill. This amendment would have provided an exemption for debtors who were forced to file for bankruptcy due to medical expenses, under the rationale that health expenses are often unpreventable and can be an especially debilitating cost to low and middle income families. Chris Dodd was one of the 34 Democrats who voted for this amendment?a group that included Senators Clinton, Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Kennedy, Kerry and Wellstone. (S.420, Vote 16, 3/7/01)

* Edwards rejected a means test amendment that would have protected debtors from sudden financial misfortune. On the same bill, Edwards again voted with the entire GOP caucus to reject an amendment that would have included a more consumer friendly means test than that included in the original bill. The amended means test would have used the average of a debtor’s last two months of income to determine their ability to pay a certain threshold amount of debt, instead of the last six months of income. The amended means test was designed to protect debtors who face financial difficulties from sudden job loss or disability. Paul Wellstone, who authored the amendment, said the original test “will make it impossible for families to rebuild their lives.” 22 Democrats supported this amendment, including Chris Dodd. Dodd was accompanied by Senators Clinton, Durbin, Feingold, and Kennedy. (S.420, Vote 33, 3/15/01; CQ Quarterly, 3/5/01)

* Edwards supported the final version of the Bankruptcy bill that “punishes the vulnerable.” Months later, Edwards again voted for the similar version of the Bankruptcy bill that emerged from negotiations with the House of Representatives. He also voted to limit debate twice on the bill, stifling further amendments or arguments. This version was not substantively different from the earlier versions, as it still made it significantly harder for working Americans to discharge their debts through the bankruptcy system. Chris Dodd rejected this bill, along with Senators Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Kennedy, Kerry and Wellstone. 14 Democrats and 2 Republicans voted against the final measure. (HR 333, Vote 234, 7/17/01; HR 333, Vote 236, 7/17/01; HR 333, Vote 230, 7/12/01)

The bill “punishes the vulnerable and it rewards the big banks and credit card companies for their poor practices,” said Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., a leading opponent of the legislation. “We are heading into hard economic times and we’re going to make it hard for people to rebuild their lives.” (Associated Press, 7/12/01)

http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=102959

[1corona4u]

81. So did John...he signed it in 2000 and 2001

nerner neener

[Pastiche423]

85. And johnnyboy enabled

the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, children and babies.

[youthere]

89. Yep..I can see why you're upset at the "mud"flung in this memo...

POT=KETTLE

[Lex]

51. Edwards has 'em all worried now!

LOL.

[Horse with no Name]

57. Yep. And so Biden guesses he will get in on the mudslinging

Maybe he thinks it makes him electable? That toad isn't electable even in a one-man race.
:rofl:

[Lex]

62. Kinda of sad for him.

He's an okay guy, I have nothing against him certainly, but he's not getting the nom. One doesn't need a crystal ball to see that.

[1corona4u]

79. Bookmarking now...

[Seabiscuit]

64. BINGO!

With Edwards now the front-runner in Iowa, Obama, Clinton and Biden are acting like sore losers and bad sports.

[maximusveritas]

53. It's not mud, but it's a weak criticism

Edwards is not responsible for the Kerry campaign.

The better criticism would be to point out that Edwards is not winning his state right now aginst Hillary and Obama. He comes in 2nd, behind Hillary and within the MOE of Obama

[hayu_lol]

65. One thing is very obvious...

the Dem nominee will not be chosen in Iowa.

This primary may just stay open to the last few states to vote. Hmmm, which state is the last to vote? Anyone know offhand?

[Cha]

74. I'm guessing

North Carolina likes all that bush enabling that hillary's been up to for the 5 years. The NC Senators are libby dole and richard burr.

[2hip]

66. Kerry campaign 2004 vs Edwards campaign 2008

Two different beasts. Or is it an apple/orange comparison? I can't decide.




        Edwards '08 tees!

[TeamJordan23]

69. Edwards campaign 2004 vs Edwards campaign 2008

Two Different beasts also. Two different messages also.

[Cha]

68. For one thing..that was

2003..lot of shite down the pike since then. There's more Dems coming around now who are tired of the dlc bullshit and so is John.

Whatever happens..I'm really happy that John and Elizabeth Edwards have been going across America with their message this time around as well.

[hedgehog]

72. Not all attacks are mud slinging.

Only an attack that distorts th eother guy's posiition and/or spreads lies about him/her.

[laureloak]

73. Biden was my choice for VP. Now I have to find a replacement.

[Peregrine Took]

80. I can't abide Biden!!! Ugh!! n/t

[cascadiance]

88. Hey Bush didn't carry his family's home state of Connecticut either!

Biden's starting to show his true stealthy DLC colors as trying to be a spoiler to keep out Edwards so as to keep a lock of more corporate beholden candidates.

Gore didn't carry his home state either. Does that make him a bad candidate too? He won the popular vote and in reality the electoral vote too, if all of Florida's votes were counted properly.

Biden confirms my suspicions of him! He is NOT the progressives' friend folks!