Oh, goody. It's a train wreck.

[Mythsaje]

So, this is what the campaign has come down to? I hate to tell folks this, but everyone who's currently engaged in the "he said/she said" arguments about Clinton and Obama ("The Clinton campaign is racist!" vs "The Obama campaign is race-baiting!"), teeth bared, swords at the ready, the trenches already slick with metaphorical blood, are, in fact, working together to create a disaster. This is a fucking nightmare.

Did people in the Clinton camp make some very stupid, questionable statements regarding race and the politics of race? Hell, yeah. I've already commented on some of them at least. But is making this whole campaign about race a mistake? Hell, yeah.

This firestorm isn't going to leave anyone involved unsinged. It's one thing to support a candidate to the point of fighting amongst ourselves, it's quite another to allow something like this to possibly create a schism between DUers that might never be healed.

This is bad, folks. Really bad.

Now, what were the other issues again? Oh, yeah. The war, the economy (particularly the looming recession), transparent government, restoration of the rule of law...stuff like that. Stuff that affects ALL Americans--white, black, brown, etc...

It breaks my heart to see this kind of fighting break out here. I'm not sure we can heal from it.

[Diane R]

1. From where I sit, it's the Clintons who are slinging all the mud.

[fightindonkey]

26. Then You're Sitting All The Way In The Back Row

[monmouth]

2. Both sides sound like kids in high school. American Idol mentality

takes over the day. Wish they'd grow up...

[Mz Pip]

3. It's painful to read

some of the threads. 2004 was heated but never this bad. I can only hope that this will not make it impossible for Democrats, not just DUers, to come together behind whoever the nominee is in November.

We used to laugh at the Freepers and their circular firing squad mentality. Personally, I'm thrilled when the Republicans destroy each other. They must be laughing their asses off at this stuff. They don't have to trash our candidates when we do it so well ourselves.

I can only hope that whoever our candidate is in November doesn't come out of this primary too damaged by negativity.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[origin1286]

4. This is exactly what the Clintons want

And it's working perfectly.

Sorry Obama. Guess we aren't quite ready for a black man.

[Anouka]

19. Yes, it is. n/t

[OzarkDem]

5. GOP is pleased with its strategy

They got their big money donors to pour millions into Clinton and Obama's campaigns so they would claw each other to death during the primaries.

Add a few ne'er do well rogue staffers to the mix and the GOP gets to insert all their favorite divisive issues - racism, sexism, etc.

Obama's campaign is being run GOP style, Hillary's a little less so.

Once they've self destructed, John Edwards emerges as the Dem candidate - that's one the GOP is trying to stop.

[Joe the Revelator]

6. What has Obama said? Last I checked, he was taking the highroad and allowing Hillary to hang herself

Don't confuse DU with the real world. Hillary is doing everything in her power to alienate as many people as possible. Obama seems happy to let her do it.

[Mythsaje]

7. How many times do I have to say this?

THIS whole thing is NOT about the candidates. It's about the PEOPLE.

[hayu_lol]

8. No matter which of our candidates takes the nomination...

The Repugs are out there salivating over the upcoming battle. Instead of beating up our candidates, we should be finding ways of protecting them down the line a bit.

Obama could be the nominee. He will face racist Repugs.

Hillary could be the nominee. She will face gender slurs.

Edwards could be the nominee. He will face all kinds of problems.

What can we do to protect our people?

[Tactical Progressive]

10. Sorry, but Gutter Tactics Street isn't 'the high road'

Obama hasn't seen the high road since he started his low road campaign a long time ago.

Maybe he meant to get off at the first exit, but he missed it.

Now he's on Racebaiting Road and seems unable to turn around.

[indimuse]

27. It's NOT what Obama "said"..

IT"S what he "didn't" say...same record on VOTING!

[Tactical Progressive]

9. It's great how you lament the overall politics as you accuse the Clintons

Doesn't that sound so very above it all?

Sorry, but Bill saying that Obama's purported anti-war credentials are a fairy-tale had nothing to do with race, until Obama's camp decided that fairy-tale is a "code word" for racism, as apparently all words used to question Obama are now.

And after Obama's claims to be the second coming of Martin Luther King, Hillary Clinton points out that LBJ did the political work to enact the Civil Rights Act, well, that's racist too because only Martin did anything to fight against racism. The entire Democratic Party taking a forty-year hit to help fight it doesn't count and how dare anybody mention it.

Sorry, but Obama and his operatives are playing race ugly.

And your post is part of the cause of the "fucking nightmare" that you decry.

[Mythsaje]

11. "Shuck and jive" was VERY racist.

And I pity anyone who can't see that. There's no way to spin it so it isn't. Not by anyone who's being honest about it.

The rest of it can be taken either way, depending on point-of-view. But dismissing ANY question of racism doesn't fly. The Clinton campaign is either being irresponsibly myopic on the subject, or playing very nasty and clever political games.

Not everything that's being said is racist, but a valid criticism exists. Ignoring it is most CERTAINLY playing fast-and-loose with the reality of the situation.

I stand by my statement...both sides are at fault here. And as far as your comment about my contribution?

Bah...not worthy of a response.

[Tactical Progressive]

13. So you start a thread decrying the racial tension in the party

So very concerned at the damage that the party is doing to itself.

As you fill it with accusations that the Clintons are "VERY racist" and very "nasty and clever" about it.

And you're so subtle about it as you "stand by my statement...both sides are at fault here." We can barely tell who you're accusing.

Your OP says it all. As hypocritical as it is, you're right that a response isn't necessary.

[Mythsaje]

17. Bold of you to accuse me of hypocrisy just like the freepers do.

Very few people have ever leveled that charge at me. I do not deserve it. I am almost pathologically fair-minded, a fact to which the vast majority of people who know me IRL would attest without reservation.

My issue with the Clinton camp at this point is that you refuse to admit that, if nothing else, some of the comments were very racially insensitive. I'm seeing what appears either to be a stunning level of arrogance, or a remarkable amount of defensiveness on your part.

You do not get to determine what is or is not racially insensitive. Those who are affected by it get to make that determination. Which, it seems, they have.

The question is whether it was intentional or simply stupidity in action. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. My criticism of the Obama camp in this regard is that many of those here automatically assumed it was intentional rather than acute insensitivity, and a sign of inherent racism on the part of the Clintons. I do not believe they are. Now it's possible, but hardly likely, that these comments were made as a part of a deliberate campaign to bait the other side. I also think, or at least hope, that this is not the case.

Both sides are refusing to accept that the other MIGHT actually have a point, and it's leading to a disgusting level of hostility that I'm afraid might never be healed. It's much worse, in my opinion, than that which was generated by the LAST Presidential primary because it plays on emotions on a far deeper level.

I abhor racism, sexism, and homophobia. I nearly left DU the last time because people were using Obama's race and the possible existence of bigots who'd never vote for a black man, to suggest we couldn't actually consider nominating him. I will not tolerate any argument that suggests that we should let racists or misogynists decide who our candidate should be.

I will also not tolerate being called a hypocrite without cause. I expect an apology.

[Tactical Progressive]

20. I pointed out blatant hypocrisy

Because it's right there.

Let me first address the emotions around this. I didn't call you a hypocrite. The actions, not the man. I specifically directed my words at your OP. So you're already escalating inaccurately. Additionally, you just inferred I'm being freeperish. When in I was merely being factual, which I'll address. But staying on this, I believe that pointing out hypocrisy is WELL within all discourse guidelines, while calling out others as freepers is not. Now, I don't really care, but it seems to me that under any circumstances, let alone that I was accurate and you are not, that your offense is by DU guidelines greater. I don't really want to get bogged down in that, even if you seem bent on it. Back to the point.

You shouldn't tolerate being called a hypocrite, if someone does that, and if it's not true. Here, nobody did that and it is true that your OP was hypocritical, so you're far away from having any justifiable claim.

You had a choice when you made your OP with pretensions to the high road, decrying the cross-currents of animosity that, regardless of who's more culpable, are hurting the party. You could have taken no side, which is the usual choice for such an 'above it all' declaration. Or you could have pointed out inconsistencies or failures or whatnot of both sides and posited the case that opposing failures and/or dishonesties cancel themselves out, in the end leaving us all hurt for no clear advantage.

Instead what you did was claim the high road while dissing the Clintons alone, which is, by any definition, hypocritical. The only thing not to be tolerated here is your OP, in which you tell everyone to just stop, after you get your digs in that the Clintons are the cause of it all.

If anyone owes an apology here, it's you. For that OP - I don't require one.

And by the way, since I took all this time to explain your misconceptions about your own failed thread proclamation, let me just say that I think the Clintons have behaved totally above board and that there is no doubt that it is Obama's camp that has clearly fomented race-baiting with their 'fairytale is a racist codeword' and 'creditting LBJ's accomplishments is racist' claims. But I didn't do that, and more importantly, you don't GET to do that in an OP pretending to be built on neutrality. Not without being called on it.

You aren't owed an apology. You owe one, Mythsaje, at least this time. You're usually alot better.

[Mythsaje]

21. Wrong answer.

I think it was conceivable that it was politically engineered. They ARE consummate politicians, after all. I don't think it WAS, but it IS within the realm of possibility. And I DO believe that the remarks of some of their supporters were racially insensitive and those here are heavily invested in denying it when it's as obvious as hell to anyone who doesn't have a particular axe to grind.

I don't think Obama, in this case, has done anything wrong, though it might be the case that his supporters HERE and elsewhere may have blown things out of proportion. Also within the realm of possibility.

And I did not accuse you of being a freeper...you can take it that way if you like. I don't like being called a hypocrite and the last person I saw doing it WAS a freeper. You can take it up with mods if you like. I really don't give a shit.

My personal opinion is that entirely too many people are refusing to see any p.o.v. but their own and you're trying to bash me for calling them on it.

So be it.

Oh, wait. On reading my O.P. again, I'm left wondering...wtf are you talking about? I didn't slam the Clintons AT ALL. I mentioned that some in their camp made very stupid statements and decried the battle it has engendered here.

[Tactical Progressive]

25. You won't even admit to the hypocrisy in your OP

let alone your other posts. You've gone from having your OP proved hypocritical in black and white, to now proving yourself a hypocrite by virtue of your purposeful insistence on it.

Blame the Clinton's all you want. You're wrong.
Claim that you're above petty squabbling. You aren't.
Claim you're not being hypocritical. You are.
Claim you're owed an apology. You owe one.
Claim other people are close-minded. That's wtf you.

We got you: the Clintons are nasty racists and we should rise above the petty squabbling they started.

Like you have.

[Mythsaje]

33. You're manufacturing that.

Nice job.

On edit: Please post an example of where I accused the Clintons themselves of anything in the O.P.

I'll be waiting, but I won't be holding my breath.

[Tactical Progressive]

35. Here you go, in your own words

In the very same post in which you decry the "he said/she said" trench warfare that is "create(s) a schism between DUers that might never be healed", you manage to blame the creation of this race-baiting on the Clintons:

"Did people in the Clinton camp make some very stupid, questionable statements regarding race and the politics of race? Hell, yeah. I've already commented on some of them at least."

That's you, being hypocritical, in quotes. You could have not blamed anyone. Or you could have placed blame on both. You chose to put the blame on the Clintons in the middle of an OP pretending to be above the partisanship.

Of course, after you put the Clintons out there as the culprits who initiated the whole thing, very much in the spirit of Obama's phony 'high road' tactics, you return to lamenting the partisanship: "It breaks my heart to see this kind of fighting break out here. I'm not sure we can heal from it."

Oh yes, you really are so above such things. So much so that a few posts later you expand on just exactly what you mean by the Clintons making 'questionable statements' on race politics:

"The Clinton campaign is either being irresponsibly myopic on the subject, or playing very nasty and clever political games."

Since the Clintons can hardly be accused of being politically myopic on the subject of race, they are, according to you, at best irresponsible (in creating the whole conflagration), or, revealing your true feelings: "playing very nasty and clever political games" with racism. You're not just a hypocrite. You're an ugly hypocrite.


But you didn't see any of that, did you mythsaje? I had to post what, four times? with you feigning unawareness and innocence of what you did.

So there you go, in your own words. Why don't you spend some time pretending that you didn't do what you really did? That ought to be fun to watch. You've gone beyond mere hypocrisy here with your blindered insistence that you didn't do what your words prove you most definitely did do, into adamant, unapologetic intellectual dishonesty.


And just for the record, since I am unencumbered by an OP pretending to be above it all: not only hasn't this been the Clinton's doing, but it has in fact been Obama who has played this race-baiting game, pretending that 'fairy tale' is a racist codeword, even as they pretend it was referencing something that it wasn't referenencing. By claiming that creditting LBJ for his political actions in creating the Civil Rights Act is somehow out-of-bounds racist. Disgusting. I'm watching Rep John Lewis saying essentially this on the PBS Nightly News Report as I'm writing here. So you're wrong even on the facts too. But your real offense is the stark hypocrisy and feigned unawareness. You owe about four apologies here. I won't expect them any more than I'll expect you to even recognize what you did wrong.

[Mythsaje]

36. ?

People in the Clinton camp DID make racially insensitive remarks. If you're so blind and/or stupid you can't recognize that "shuck and jive," for example, IS racially insensitive, if not outright racist, you're as ignorant as any Republican.

And going on my ignore for being such.

Anything more I have to say to you would be censored, so I'm not going to bother.

[Tactical Progressive]

38. Pretending you're not a hypocrite?

That wasn't hard to predict.

[ruggerson]

16. I agree with your general sentiment

but if you read the totality of the "shuck and jive" quote, it was absolutely not racist at all.

And it was said by ANDREW CUOMO. Anyone who think the Clintons secretly organized Andrew Cuomo to go out there and say something racist is really pushing tinfoil hat nonsense.

[Mythsaje]

18. Oh, I don't think it was instigated by the Clintons.

And, yes, it was racially insensitive. I don't need to know the context. The term should never have left his mouth aimed at a black man in ANY context. Period.

[incapsulated]

37. I luv you.

Just wanted to say that.

:loveya:

[bobbolink]

12. It's just a preview of life under another corporate presidency.

As always, We, The People lose.

:cry:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. If primaries were a meditation session, I'd be concerned by this, but they have never been.....

.... I will vote for anyone nominated to run for the Democratic Party. However, the way of elections in the U.S. is not peaceful or kind and it has never been, and it's not getting better.

[butterfly77]

15. You are correct...

it is too bad that a lot of people here can't handle the truth. We are suppose to be strategizing against the neocons, but some want to fight. If you can't handle a question people what will you do when the neocons start their swiftboating? Think ahead you know these people, haven't we all learned by now how they work...

[Didereaux]

22. I've said it before, it is Obamas to play or take off the table, no one else can kill the issue

If he takes the card off the table any candidate or other party that tries to put it back on will lose support from the general electorate...BIG TIME! If Obama leaves it on the table, he will cause every latent racist feeling that exists in this country to rise to the surface and the general electorate either won't turn out, or they will vote Repug! Thats the facts, folks!

[Didereaux]

23. self delete dupe

[lojasmo]

24. "Race baiting" is a republican talking point. EOM

[michaz]

28. The longer Clinton and Obama act like this, the more sure I am of my support for John Edwards!

If this mud-slinging continues, it it going to turn people off and they won't vote for either one!

[bklyncowgirl]

29. My sentiments exactly--this is stupid.

Fight like hell about the issues, folks but let's leave the personal shit out of it.

The fact is that unless John Edwards catches fire or, even less likely, lightning strikes Dennis Kucinich, either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democratic party. Do we really want to work up our hate for one of the presumptive nominees of our party?

Democrats are really good at ripping up their fellow Democrats and then, once the last man or woman standing has been crowned, standing there like big, fat targets as the Republican swiftboats open fire.

This is beyond ridiculous.

[Perry Logan]

30. All the Obamite accusations get disproven. But the Obamites keep repeating them. Very Republican.

[caseycoon]

31. You are right, Mythsaje!

It IS a trainwreck!
Even this thread has turned into a "he said/did...she said/did" mess.

I'm not reading as much here lately. :o(

Does anyone remember election night '06?
I had been here one day. It was so wonderful with everyone reporting in about the results in their states. We were all SO together! Joyful when the Dems were winning & commiserating when they dropped behind. It was one hell of a pajama party & I was up all night. (an old lady with a 9 PM bedtime!) LOL!
I loved it! I have learned so much since I came here, but now it's mostly about BS & hard to find good info about the issues.
I'm sad to see it, but DU is my second home. I won't leave even though I have to jump from thread to thread to find the good stuff.
I HOPE this too shall pass. It sure hurts to see it.
HUGS to you & thanks for posting this.

[BlueIris]

32. It's all horrifying. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

34. You have to look at what the voters are saying

the 'racist' thing hit the MSM and the ordinary voter is talking about it. The GOP are probably rubbing their hands with glee!