Who is going to emerge to compete with Dean for the nod...Clark or Kerry?

[KaraokeKarlton]

I've been wondering about this today and even have had some discussions about this on other threads. I just can't decide who I think is in a stronger position to break away from the other. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that Dean will be one of the last two standing. I think the other one is going to come down to either Kerry or Clark. So, I want to ask people who they think is in a better position or a strong enough candidate to knock the other one out. Please explain why, including what you think are the strengths and weaknesses that helped you make your choice!

Thanks for your input!

[slinkerwink]

1. it's hard to say because Kerry's competing in IA and NH

whereas Clark's competing in just NH, and then SC another week later.


If Kerry comes out second in Iowa and New Hampshire, that'll get him plenty of media attention whereas if Clark has a third in NH, and a first or second place showing in SC, Kerry could very well end up being christened the anti-Dean.

[jjmalonejr]

5. Kerry

Look for a real shocker in IA and NH when Kerry closes the gap. Dean's probably too far ahead to be overtaken there, but a surprise second finish for Kerry in IA and a much tighter than expected showing in NH will have the media abuzz with Kerry's momentum.

[janx]

25. ...until Clark gets there with his quadrant elevation assessment.

Then Kerry will be toast.

[KC21304]

2. My bet is Kerry and Clark are going to team up

and put up one hell of a fight against Dean.

[maddezmom]

8. that's my thinking, too n/t

[janx]

12. They could do it, too.

What with their cajones and their military experience.

The only downside to that is if they decide to go against eachother at some point. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: that would be the Mother of All Battles.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. I don't see that happening

The only way they could do that is if one of them willingly dropped out and endorsed the other before the primaries even start. I don't see either one of them being willing to be the one to drop out.

But perhaps that should lead to another question.

Which one would be the one to drop out, Kerry or Clark?

[nomaco-10]

16. How are they gonna hook up if

only one of them is standing. Do you mean Clark would take on Kerry as a VP? You must be joking. Kerry or Clark will face Dean and there's no way either one of these men would accept the VP from each other. It's do or die for Kerry in NH period.

[LuminousX]

22. A Kerry/Clark ticket would be very strong

[Jerseycoa]

27. Not happening

Both of these men are running for president.

[janx]

28. Strong? That is an understatement. They'd control the electronic

spectrum and have major weapons systems at their command! They'd be some nad quartet!

[John_H]

57. but what if Trippi succeeds in perfecting the MSBFES?

(Manic Smile and Bizarro Facial Expression Supressor)? The head to head TV appearances with Clark could then become a real matchup.

[janx]

63. Trippi's a genius, but there's no way he could perfect the

MSBFES. Nor would he want to. It would arouse suspicions from narco-terrorists.

[MoonRiver]

32. For at least a year this was my dream team. Now I want Clark first.

Since I know Kerry won't do second fiddle,I now think Clark should choose Graham.

[nomaco-10]

35. another Kerry gone over to Clark....

like rats deserting a sinking ship around here. What gives?

[Byronic]

76. This rat

is going no-where! :)

Clark is a great guy and ultimately may make a fantastic nominee, but till that happens, and while the dream still lives, I'll stay firmly on the deck of the good ship Kerry.

Rats For Kerry 2004!

[WiseMen]

77. Wesley Clark was marked to be Kerry's V.P. Before Draft-Clark

Clinton's Secretary of Labor Robert Reich has proposed around the time Dean started to dominate the media (Time/Newsweek covers) that
the truly credible ticket for the Democrats was Kerry/Clark.

This was before Clark joined the race.

[Hep]

78. That does neither of them any good

To team up.

[Closer]

3. Lieberman!

Kerry and Clark teamed up to take on Dean early on, and they screwed themselves.

[nomaco-10]

19. Exactly, and the pitiful thing is....

the Kerry supporters thought all along that they would throw in with Clark, (alot of them even switched over to Clark in the process).

It's been like a game of SURVIVOR, I'll make an unspoken alliance with you to get as far as I can in the game, then leave you as soon as I'm in the position to win. Kerry's supporters took it hook, line and sinker. You should read some of the stuff I've read on Clark bogs, they are literally laughing their ass off at the Kerry people.

[Jerseycoa]

26. What???!!

This is news to this Clark supporter. If you're listening to blog gossip, which I repeat, I have never this particular conspiracy theory, well, what you get is blog gossip.

[KaraokeKarlton]

29. Are you forgetting about that guy from GWU?

He was on here trying to lure Kerry supporters into a group under the guise of uniting to stop Dean. He claimed he didn't support anyone yet he is heavily involved in the Clark Campaign. I don't doubt that you haven't seen this going on personally on blogs, but there are some among Clark supporters who are doing this.

[Jerseycoa]

40. Right

The stop Dean guy. I did forget and don't remember it involving Kerry people especially. Thanks to my aging brain.

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. Anytime

I don't know if that's something that's widespread, but you have to admit that with the kind of welcome the guy got here that if he's doing that all over the internet he might get a fair folowing. He didn't name Kerry supporters specifically, but let's be honest...which candidate supporters are the most bitter toward Dean? It's almost exclusively Clark and Kerry supporters. It's not ALL of them, clearly, but that would certainly be the target group.

It puts me in mind of a corporate takeover where the side trying to weasel it's way in convinces stock owners to sell to them and before you know it, they convince enough people to own the majority of the stock. I think this is that guy's ploy...coax in Kerry supporters under the guise of unification only to try to fool them into abandoning Kerry in favor of Clark. That's pretty dirty and there were some sensible Clark supporters who spoke against it. There were also a lot who were encouraging it, sadly.

Politics appears to be a big sneaky game to some people. It's unbelievable some of the tactics they'll employ.

On another note...it's really quite nice to be talking civil to people. I'm going to try it more often. I think the separation of the GD forum helped tone things down. I like it!

[KittyWampus]

45. He DIDN'T Name Kerry Supporters Specifically, So REALLY

let's be honest....

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. I didn't say he did

But anyone can take a short look around here and see which candidates' supporters have a more negative feeling towards Dean. Again, not all of them, but enough for it to be very easy to distinguish.

[mikehiggins]

71. Proactive paranoia

Lemme get this straight.

A guy comes on DU urging people to join a Stop Dean campaign.

You assume that means a Clark/Kerry joint effort to stop Dean.

Have I got that right?

This guy is someone you beleive is "heavily involved" in the Clark Campaign, for reasons not clear to me.

You assume that means the Clark Campaign is trying to lure the Kerry supporters into their ranks, like a hostile takeover?

There is as much evidence supporting your view as a soap bubble. Just looking at it makes it pop!

Where's the beef? Show me the money! Let's have some proof of a Clark effort to undermine Kerry.

[KaraokeKarlton]

75. You are misunderstanding me

It was one Clark supporter who is involved in the campaign who started the stop dean thing. I don't think it's a widespread concept among Dean supporters, but the guy did post his intentions on a blog attached to Clarks official website. He didn't come right out and say his goal was to lure Kerry supporters to Clark, but since he's a Clark supporter I highly doubt he wanted to organize people to convince them to all get behind Kerry. Let's use some common sense, here.

[jmaier]

58. That Marcus kid

from GWU has no swing in the Clark Campaign. It's just youthful indiscretion. He needs to spend some time in the brig.

[janx]

60. He should be court marshalled. He should have his nads

in the kill box.

[KaraokeKarlton]

62. lol...but you gotta admit he DID get some favorable replies

as well as a lot of people defending him. And all it takes is one of those to wreak a world of harm. I think he needs a spanking, and not a friendly one, either!

[mikehiggins]

70. What position in the Clark campaign does this guy hold?

unless "heavily involved in the Clark Campaign" has some other meaning?

[KittyWampus]

46. You've READ Stuff On Clark Blogs...

Good Heavens.... you're some Sherlock... some loser tries to stir stuff up and you're here busy spinning pretencious yarns yourself.

[Bill of Rights]

66. I read the Clark blog constantly

and never heard anything disparaging about Kerry and his fans. I think you are trying to make trouble between the two teams.

[La_Serpiente]

4. I think it is somewhat difficult to tell now

but I think Kerry has some advantages as well as Clark. It is possible Kerry could come in 2nd place in Iowa. Also, Clark is not competing there. However, I think Clark has more supporters on hand and the "appearence" of more resouces.

[askew]

15. I going to guess Clark will be Dean's main competitor

Kerry doesn't seem to have very strong support outside IA and NH. I don't see him playing well across the South, especially with his pro-gun control views. And there seems to be an anti-establishment trend this year and I think that will favor Clark more. I guess it depends what happens, if any of the other candidates drop out and who gets their supporters. I can see Lieberman's supporters drifting more towards Clark and I would guess that Kerry would pick up Gephardt's supporters.

[Kanola]

36. If Kerry comes in second in Iowa`

wouldn't that hurt Clark? I mean Kerry has a lot of campaign money to spend.. more so than Clark.

[mikehiggins]

72. Mo money, mo money, mo money

Why do you think Kerry will have more money than Clark? Is he doing better at fund raising? What are the latest statistics or does that wait until the end of December?

Do you expect Kerry to fund his race out of his own pocket? Hard to imagine a scenario that would justify that.

Kerry comes in 2nd in New Hampshire? Where does that leave him after years of work in setting up this campaign and so forth. If Clark comes in third it's an accomplishment, since he's only been in the running since September and he didn't have any money or established staff in place like the Senators and Congressmen do.

His organisation was on the same level as Al Sharpton and Carol Braun's when he started out. If he "shows" in Iowa and/or New Hampshire his people will have done a fantastic job.

I know us Clark types seem giddy about him but the fact remains that he is doing something that is pretty well inconceiveable in modern politics, and he took time off to testify in a war crimes trial in the middle of his campaign.

Clark is the untold story of the campaign (especially in the media) and I don't think Kerry's bucks are going to change that.

[Jerseycoa]

41. I agree

Kerry could show nicely in Iowa.

"appearance of more resources"

Are you picking on my cake? :P Damn, that cake is taking some dissing today.

[poskonig]

6. None of the above.

Kerry will steamroll Clark in NH. Kerry also will not get IA. The establishment's only hope is a Gephardt win in IA, since Gephardt has natural advantages on February third.

[KittyWampus]

48. "The Establishment's" Only Hope. What A Joke

what Establishment is this Poskonig? The same one that every other Candidate running is a part of?

Frankly this is a prime example of the way so many humans are totally brainwashed into the Us vs. Them, Black & White Mentality.

The irony is that so many of the people who are stuck in this mindset actually believe themselves to be radicals or progressive.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. Does anyone think Kerry has an advantage because he has domestic

experience that Clark really doesn't have? I think this could play a big part in how people choose between the two.

[w13rd0]

7. I think Clark has the potential to bring more people...

...a different demographic, into the primary process, that might not otherwise be there. I'm not necessarily looking for a #2 choice, but based on feeling that it's important, in leading up to the General Election, to bring in as many people as possible to the Democratic tent, I think it probably should be Clark. Kerry has been a good Senator, a loyal Democrat, but I just don't think he's going to bring anyone in that isn't already calling the Democratic party home.

[nomaco-10]

9. I really hate to say this , but I think

Clark will edge out Kerry in NH. The Clark campaign is really out there and in full force, as evidenced by their looming presence here. They are some of the most enthusiastic supporters I've ever seen. They make the Deaniacs look apathetic in comparison. I'm sure Kerry must be scratching his head and wondering what he has to do to stop the Clark tide from rolling right over him, and on his own turf no less.

[janx]

17. If Clark calls in his troops and arms them sufficiently,

you might be right.

[Bucky]

10. I think the question should be Clark, Gephardt, or Lieberman

That's right. I said Lieberman. He's consistantly polling well--generally to the north of Clark--in virtually every recent poll. He's the one anti-Dean who could assure Dean's nomination.

[Jerseycoa]

34. I've been thinking about him

the past couple of days. He is doing well and enduring longer than it seemed he would. It depends on when the recognition factor kicks in for other candidates (besides Dean). We all know the country just hasn't begun to focus on this and won't until after the holidays. When they do, I don't think Lieberman will hold up in comparison to other candidates.

What's Edwards doing lately, anyway? It seems a little quiet for him recently, but with the media the way it is, who can tell, really?

[KittyWampus]

50. LIeberman Couldn't Even Pay His Staff

The NY Times today reported his staff agreed to a pay deferrment.

Even when the matching funds come in... it makes him look terribly weak.

[Bucky]

65. True, it looks bad financially for Lieberman. But....

I'm not really sure that impacts his chances to pull off an upset. Money troubles really is an insider's observation. Most voters want to hear a candidate who reflects their values and inspires their hopes. For many Democrats, Lieberman does that, even if he doesn't do that for me.

I also suspect some latecomers to following this race may break toward Lieberman. He has an interesting life story to tell, although it's not as compelling as Clark, Kerry, or Edwards's. But he does touch on heartland values in ways that Dean doesn't. His odds are as good as Clark's, and probably better than Gephardt's, for breaking out of the pack to challenge Dean.

If it's a three-way race by mid February, I'm betting Joe is one of the three.

[Bill of Rights]

68. Edwards made a major foreign policy speech

that the media completely ignored. I seriously think this was not fair.

[jmaier]

11. I'm a Clark Supporter

but originally I leaned toward Kerry before making the final plunge. Here's my politically naive take.

Kerry has the opportunity to make a show still in IA and if he does so that should translate into some positive bounce in NH. Basically, If Kerry edges past Gephardt in IA then I think he could win the #2 position in NH. Good for Kerry. However, I don't see where he picks up support on Feb 3rd. He's low single digit everywhere that counts so I believe that Kerry is basically damaged goods and a good showing in IA and/or NH doesn't do much to give his campaign legs.

Clark is pretty well positioned in OK and even SC and AZ. His ability to do well there will be enhanced by a solid 2nd place in NH. Basically, it might help propel him into 1st place in 2 or all 3 of those states. Coming in 3rd in NH doesn't put him out of contention but it might reduce his numbers in those places.

To me the scary wildcard is still Lieberman. He cuts into both Kerry and Clark in NH and to Clark in OK. How he plays out will have something to do with whether or not a strong contender to Dean emerges on Feb 3rd.

Bottom line: Kerry can prolong the agony without changing his outcome. For Clark, it's still all about Feb 3rd with NH boosting or weaking his game somewhat.

[Northwind]

13. Neither Clark nor Kerry...

Nor any of the other 6, are competition for Dean in terms of support.

Only Kucinich is competition for Dean in issues and ideology.

[ozone_man]

20. You speak of issues and ideology.

Yes, Kucinich is the leader in that regard, in my opinion. All the rest are trying to get elected. Every once in a while, lightening strikes and you get a Bernard Sanders, who is also electable, at least in the state of Vermont. DK is my second choice.

[KittyWampus]

51. How Out Of Touch Can You Be? Clark Is Closest To Kucinich

on the political compass...

Dean is just about the furthest to the right....

[ozone_man]

18. Lieberman. :-)

It sounds lame. He has support a mile wide, but only ankle deep. Yet he may be the closest to Dean.

Kerry has some support in Iowa, but nowhere else. Will it be enough to keep him in? No.

Clark needs a win in SC, though Dean momentum after NH may be overwhelming. If not, he may be relegated to the same level as Lieberman, a distant 2nd/3rd.

I'm just having a bit of fun here and anything can happen.

[frustrated_lefty]

21. Deanie here

Clark will get the nod. Kerry would have done a better job, at least part of the fault for this falls upon the heads of his campaign folks, they gathered a bit of wit at the end, but they tried to play this like an old style election (with all the pros and cons that entails). This election involves long-term political ambitions, but it isn't about career politicians.

I don't think either (Kerry or Clark) has a powerful chance of slapping Dean aside, and think Kerry destroys part of his base by attempting to do so. Clark could pull it off. More for his uniform than for his platform. The problem is, Clark lacks substance, in my view. You can't get through a Clarkie thread without hearing about "his piercing blue eyes," "his patriocy," his "affable nature." His uniform is the basis of his running. Bush simply has to produce Bin Laden and the Clark camp is baseless, they sound like whiners. Dean insists we did this wrong from the start. Capture Bin Laden, you still can't question, we did this wrong from the start.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

24. Clark is strong on Defense and Osama's being caught will....

hurt Dean because Bush will tell the people that Dean is a weak liberal!

[frustrated_lefty]

31. Ok, I'm glad you feel that fervently.

Clark may well be our savior. If that is so, it's in the cards. I support Dean on his policies, and will support any Democrat who strives to defeat Bush the Tiny, the Minimal, the Junior, the almighty Shrub and his disciples.

[Jerseycoa]

23. Two weeks ago

I thought it was a done deal, but Kerry's begun showing campaigning grit he wasn't earlier. He could do well in NH. However, I don't see him carrying through the February states. I have a lot of respect for Senator Kerry, yet moving south and west alongside somebody with stronger foreign policy experience, in terms of diplomacy, and a stronger military record, in terms of command, takes some of the shine off it for Kerry. When it comes to domestic policy it is somewhat different, of course, since Kerry's got the longer record there and he has been an excellent senator. Both men have lived their lives in public service, national service, so that's a draw.

What Clark has to do is something different. He has to make understood and understandable the aspects of military executive command that parallel civilian government. Populations in the tens or hundreds of thousands including spouses and children. Health and dental care, education, domestic counseling, race relations, mental health care, roads, school buildings, curricula, housing, family abuse situations, food distribution, recreational facilities, criminal justice and judicial system, and so forth. He has to show his record on accomplishing not only the meeting of basic human needs, but improving upon them, bringing about reforms to the system that made military life better for troops and military families.

With this, he has to explain what it took in political terms. Hatcheting through the bureaucracy, lobbying congress, whatever it took. One of his gifts, thankfully, is the ability to communicate complex situations in a language that speaks to all sorts of people. If he can get across the alignment between military and civilian society, sort of mirror the two, and then explain the challenges he faced and solutions he achieved, I think voters will get it, and trust him more on the domestic level. This is his biggest challenge.

[mzmolly]

33. I think Kerry's gone AWOL and it's sad to see him lose this battle.

He's got sack, and experience within the Democratic unit. But, it seems like it's time for Kerry to abort this mission since he's not putting up a fight. It saddens me to say that. :-(

[Jerseycoa]

37. I don't know

The past few times I've seen him on TV he seemed alive and kicking. I agree he had gone AWOL for a time, but maybe he's coming back inside now. We'll see.

[mzmolly]

38. He's kicking alright, but he's kicking himself right in the satchel.

*sigh*

I do hope he comes back into active duty soon. :hi:

[janx]

59. He might come back with some heavy ordnance

and some backfill. Watch carefully.

[GobGoober]

30. Neither of them, Dean will win handily

These two campaigns are fighting for such similar demographics right now that there is no way either will be able to emerge as the "Anti-Dean". The only way Dean will be knocked out of this race is if one or the other drops out and does so soon, otherwise, the Dean campaign is going to juggernaut it's way to the nomination.

This is sort of sad from where I sit because I'm not too sure I will vote for Dean. A bit of my background. I am an independent. I voted for Harry Brown in the last election, sadly enough. I couldn't bring myself to vote for Gore, although Bush was close to getting my vote. All in all, I may sit 2004 out. I find Clark to be an attractive candidate and I would absolutely vote for him, but I don't see him getting a nomination if Kerry doesn't drop out soon.

[mzmolly]

39. Your right on. They dont' seem to realize that either would be a

real contender were it not for the other.

[deminflorida]

43. South Carolina is the Key.......

It will be Clark's stand against Dean, and seperate him from the rest of the pact as well. The race begins after South Carolina.

[mzmolly]

54. Yea but Kerry is polling strong in some Northern states, so you just never

know?

[mjv135]

44. Money

Cash advantage goes to Clark, Kerry can't lend himself money through this whole thing, I think that's going to take Lieberman out too. Clark will easily top 12 million this quarter. With the press fetish for money and polls, he should (finally) start getting some positive press after the fundraising figures start coming in.

[Spider Jerusalem]

52. Kerry.

Kerry, of the candidates for the nomination, has the most comprehensive vision of where America needs to go in the coming century, and what we need to do to get there. NB: His call for a new Manhattan/Apollo Project scale effort to move to renewable and sustainable energy sources; his foreign policy and military issues experience from years on the Freign Relations and Armed Services committes in Congress; his positions on national healthcare, education, minority rights, etc., etc. in almost every area, if one takes the time to examine the record, Kerry is head and shoulders above the rest of the field.

Clark is a very intelligent man, with excellent leadership and administrative skills, true; but he just can't be compared to Kerry. A political neophyte, whose ideas are hazy, ill-defined generalities and not specifics, he can't really compete, I'm afraid. (But I shouldn't be surprised to see Clark get the n od for the VP slot on the ticket with either Dean or Kerry.)

[arewethereyet]

53. Edwards of course

or maybe Gep

[Patriot_Spear]

55. Nothing against Clark- but he can't compete with Kerry's money...

I like Clark, but as long as Kerry feels he is in the race, he'll outspend Clark everytime.

[janx]

56. Kerry might have more money, but does he have a

special operations combat control team?

It's easy to make assumptions.

[Patriot_Spear]

61. You mean MAC SOG New Hampshire?

LOL- well it was a pretty good demostration of 'Psy Ops' to send those chicken wings...

[janx]

64. It might be MACCS, or it might be

something like NAVSOF.

"Live Free or DIE!"

[RandomUser]

69. Or maybe it's Big MACS

wait, wrong fast food chain. Nevermind :)

[Tom Rinaldo]

67. Kerry has less money than Clark, by far.

Kerry is not legally allowed to use his wife's money, she's the one who is rich. Kerry just took out a mortgaga on his hosue to raise money to keep his campaign funded. That's hard times, and a trick that can not be repeated again. Clark's funidng continues to be strong, with projections of at least 10 million raised, maybe more, this funding quarter.

[shivaji]

73. This one is easy....neither Kerry or Clark can match Dean's

momentum, energized base, internet savvy, 2 years of jump in campaigning, lightning fast thinking on his feet and manly personality. I am sorry Kerry fans, but your man is better suited for a role in a Dracula movie remake. And also sorry Clark fans, your man looks wimpy, looks gaunt and emaciated, and reminds of a used car salesman. He is not gaining traction anywhere to make a difference.

It is obvious to me that Dean must have a heckuva good team to do this well. It shows the man has leadership qualities to pick the right people. Clark can't get endorsement of even his colleague generals. Dean has the most important endorsement so far, Al Gore.
And big dog is not about to endorse a losing candidate, such as Clark, which is about the only hope Clark has left.

Of all the leading candidates, Dean is the only one who will excite the African-American and liberal base. With Kerry or Clark at the head of ticket I bet half the black voters stay home on election day.

People who are claiming Clark is more electable are delusional. To quote president Truman, "given choice between a republican and a republican lite, they (repugs) will vote the republican every time".
ANd I don't buy this Dean is un-electable propaganda. They said the same thing in 1992 about Clinton....a governor from a small state blah blah blah.

[Gloria]

74. Something ironic about Clark--local campaign manager told me

he thought Clark's biggest problem is that he's perceived as "not being in the club" here in NM!! He's considered to be a real "outsider."

This is NM's first caucus and nobody knows what's going on in terms of getting people used to the idea of a Feb. vote instead of June and the limited number of polling places. In other words, habits have to be broken. The fellow here figures there are 500,000 registered Dems in NM and maybe 50,000 will participate.