Naders Biggest Impact: His 6% in Poll Destroys Kerry Image as WINNER.

[WiseMen]

Unfortunately, as long as Nader is on the list of choices, polls
will show a percentage of the left supporting him. This is regardless
of whether that percent would actually vote for Nader.

Thus Nader is destroying the democrats chance of gaining "winner momentum" to propel into a landslide which could help with
congressional seats.

What Nader is doing is trully tragic for the Nation. The sad thing
is that he, and most of his fans, really do not understand.

[Dookus]

1. You are correct

except for the last part. They understand very well.

[sallyseven]

2. Who said he has 6%?

[WiseMen]

8. Two recent polls both show that Nader entry brings Kerry Nums below Bush

Without Nader Kerry wins in Polls. With Nader Kerry just looses.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&e=1&u=/ap/20040304/ap_on_el_pr/ap_poll_president

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

30. woah, no shit.

Man, that really sucks.

[janx]

31. Nader is taking votes away from both, if I am reading this

correctly.

Independent voters (I was one until Dean came along and will be one again) went for Nader in some pretty large numbers. I have close friends and family who voted for him last time.

[MessiahRp]

59. Well that's because Nader is Independent...

The feeling I am getting is that it's going to be a very organized Right hoping to retain their base against the disorganized left. I don't see a whole lot of Independent "Swing" voters thinking Bush is in tune with them. Bush is the kind of guy who draws like minded right wingers and not much more, especially now that people know more about him (unlike in 2000).

Rp

[Guaranteed]

48. Leadership, leadership, leadership. nt

[info being]

3. Look he can't ignore the Liberal base without consequence

He needs to have a strategy to handle this. One idea would be to reach out to Kucinich.

[Gman]

5. None of us REAL Democrats appreciate that kind of THREAT

You are aligning yourself with the ENEMY when you make those kinds of threats.

[bitchkitty]

53. What threat?

I didn't see a threat. Kerry DOES need to at least try to reach that part of his base. How is that threatening to you?

[Atlant]

64. What threat? That liberals might vote for a liberal? Quelle Surprise!

Maybe folks sould have thought of that before voting for "Mr.
Electable" in the primaries.

Atlant

[Protagoras]

82. Maybe the Naderites should learn more about the real Nader

before they rush to embrace him as the Liberal Messiah.

[Forkboy]

81. "us REAL Democrats"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....you're killing me! :silly:

[progressiverealist]

I hope you don't mean Kucinich as VP

There are way too many things wrong with that ticket.

[Perky]

20. WHere the Fuck is the Liberal base going to go.

You think they are going to stay at home after what they did to Gore in 2000? No Sir I agree He can't ignore them...but to suggest that the liberal base is going to leave if Kerry doesnot worhsip at the shrine to Kucinich and Kennedy is just idiotic.


If the Liberal base was so god awful powerful DK would be leading the delegat count by now.

The only thing that is important is getting Bush out of office.

Liberalds running to Nader will have no one to blame but themselves.
Grow Up. swallow your idealism and beat Bush.

[Atlant]

65. Do you really think the Democrats are the "leftmost" party?

I don't think so.

Atlant

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. Do you really think the left can be represented (elected) any other way?

to the Presidency? ......... I don't think so either.

[Atlant]

74. Well, it would *HAVE* To be another way because Democrats merely...

Well, it would *HAVE* to be another way because Democrats merely
piss on us and tell us it's raining.

Atlant

[Ficus]

73. powerful enough

to make Kerry lose apparently.

[SangamonTaylor]

70. how is Kerry ignoring the liberal base?

I'm at a loss. He's only the 'most liberal U.S. Senator'.

I really don't understand where this "ignoring" is coming from...

[progressiverealist]

4. I wish someone could just (figuratively)slap the living shit out of Nader.

There's no way Ralph is helping anyone but Ralph.

[Melodybe]

7. This FORMER Nader voter wishs he would drop the fuck out!

[zoeyfong]

52. This former Gore voter is glad he's in. I am disgusted with the

dem performance over the last 3 years in particular, and i'm not going to reward them with my vote. And if kerry loses, it will be his and the dem party's fault, not nader's. The dem party might want to try taking some responsibility for its own actions; but in order to do that it would have to develope a backbone first.

[MessiahRp]

60. Well he is helping someone else...

Bush.

Rp

[Mairead]

6. So what do you think Kerry should do about that? (nt)

[mobuto]

10. Its not Kerry's job to do anything

Its Ralph Nader's job. His candidacy is the single most irresponsible political effort in American history.

[janx]

32. Nah...Kerry is going to have to come up with some kind of

strategy to deal with it. It's not realistic to believe otherwise.

[He loved Big Brother]

44. Actually it's KERRY'S job to earn his votes.

He isn't entitled to them by default.

[Sensitivity]

22. I think DK should speak-out strongly against Nader entry. DK is democrat

Nader is destroying the democrats chances of regaining the congress even if Kerry wins the Presidency.

[corporatewhore]

26. what does kucinich have to do with nader?

[Perky]

9. Looks to me like Nader is up 6 pts and Bush is Down 6%

While Kerry has jumped about 8% and non declared has droped from 10% down to 3%

Ergo.... Nader has taken more votes from Bush then he has from Kerry

[mobuto]

14. Do you really believe that?

You think Nader's getting more support from people who disagree with him on the issues than from people who agree with him? I just can't understand why ANYBODY would support that sniveling twit.

[Perky]

17. I am just looking at the poll results

As compared to January
Undececided when way down 7%.

Bush lost 6%

If Kerry gained 8%. Nader's support must have come from a migration of support form the Undecideds and from Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Read the poll first!

Nader hurts Bush's numbers! In a 2-way race, Bush beats Kerry handily.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040304/480/nyet22903042207

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[59millionmorons]

68. Yesterdays new Pew poll has Kerry up 48-44

This AP poll shows Bush sinking.

[mobuto]

21. Except that requires a leap of faith

nothing in the poll results suggests that Nader's picking off Bush supporters. You're simply assuming that, and I'm telling you that that's illogical and flies in the face of what we know of Nader's previous quixotic adventures - that he steals twenty votes from Democrats for every vote he gets from a Republican.

[Perky]

23. Well if that were true...

The He is picing up previously undecided and Bush Supporters.

Either way.....Bush is the one getting dinged.

[MessiahRp]

61. That's bull

Kerry was leading 52-46 in most polls before this one, the 6 pts. clearly comes from Kerry not Bush.

The other numbers in the polling goes way back to January when there was no clear frontrunner.

Rp

[Jim Sagle]

11. This poll ain't nuthin' but a crocka chickenshit bullshit.

[WiseMen]

16. All the polls with Nader in show same result. Allways some who check Nader

[RichM]

24. I don't think you can use "chickenshit bullshit" in a subject line.

It doesn't work, somehow. The flow is not good. It lacks resonance, agility & power.

[Perky]

25. actually you can..

You just can't statrt a thread with profanity.

[charlie]

12. Worry, worry, worry

Dean's numbers showed an Iowan blowout as little as a week before. The Bush camp was prepared to do battle in an electoral-loss popular-win scenario and wound up with just the opposite. Poll numbers so far from November mean nothing.

[Florida_Geek]

13. That is ASSUMING BIG TIME

Nader even gets on the ballot. In most cases he will not.

Not a fair poll.

[Sensitivity]

19. But the Enemy Media will do polls to include Nader so Bush looks Winner

[zulchzulu]

15. As far as I'm concerned, Nader is the enemy as much as Bush

I will protest him whenever he is within 300 miles of where I live. He's an egomanical ass and will get plenty from me if I get a chance.

A vote for St. Ralph is a vote for Chimpy. Period.

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. Pragmatic Leftists are onto this problem earlier this time.

Sure most of us were unhappy that Nader was running against Gore in 2000, but I for one did not really think it was going to be that important until fairly close to Election Day. It was hard to conceive of Gore actually losing to Bush.

Any friend of mine who even considers voting for Nader this time will have to deal with a whole lot of heated political discussions between us. I don't think I am alone in saying this. I am counting on the Shrub to make my job easier. I think Nader's numbers will be going down once the real fight is engaged.

[Old and In the Way]

27. Nader also throws another factor into the polling and BBV

concerns. A two man race between Bush or Kerry makes the polling results clearer. With Nader in, there is a chance to make the race look a whole lot tighter and eventually give cover to Bush by throwing votes into the Nader column.

If I had confidence that the voting data was non-manipulative, I wouldn't be nearly as concerned with Ralph's EGO 2004 campaign.

[Sensitivity]

28. Someone has to get to Nader. It is a real crime what he is doing.

[Raya]

33. Time for RUTHLESS approach to Nader. Some sane leaders on the Left

have got to get to him and lay down the law.

[IndianaGreen]

37. Nader is taking Republican and independent votes, according to AP

Nader is not getting any votes from Democrats!

AP Poll Finds Bush, Kerry Tied in Race
42 minutes ago

By WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer

The poll was conducted Monday through Wednesday as Kerry captured nine of 10 Super Tuesday elections and claimed the nomination. Nightly results suggested that Kerry did not get a bounce from winning the nomination.

<snip>

In the poll, Nader was most likely to get the backing of young adults, independents and maybe a GOP voter.

Republican Virgil Ahlberg of Apison, Tenn., said he is seriously considering a vote for Nader.

"Bush has come across as a little more aggressive and warlike than I like," he said. "I like Ralph Nader being in the race. I like his practicality and taking people to task for things they promise to do, things that aren't being addressed."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/ap_poll_president

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Independents are not beholden to any party, while...

disaffected Republicans who want to vote against Bush, are not about to vote for someone with a record as liberal as Teddy Kennedy's.

In the Indiana Republican primary in May 2000, 40-percent of GOP voters voted for John McCain even though McCain had already dropped out. I suspect many of them voted Libertarian in the Fall.

[Raya]

54. More Anti-Kerry BS. Nader has not changed Bush's 46%. Just Kerry's 51% got

knocked down by Nader entry. Fox's previous poll with and without
Nader showed that clearly.

[Atlant]

66. Hmmm. Let's think back; what could the Democrats have done to forestall...

> He is getting Non-Bush vote that would go to Kerry.

Hmmm. Let's think back; what could the Democrats have done to forestall
that occurrence?

Ahh! I know! They could have nominated a candidate who actually
reflected the one or two biggest concerns of the left.

They chose not to.

So some leftists will choose not to support the Democratic candidate.
(You're reading one of them now.)

Atlant

[Raya]

78. With Nader In, Kerry Likely has to move to center to make up for votes

lost to Nader on the left.

I guess everyone will be happy now.

[janx]

45. What do you mean by

"lay down the law" ?

[KenLayedOff]

34. I'll support a big shift to the left to get the voters back

We need to get the message to President Kerry that the time for that move is now. We can start with a clear stance on support for Gay Marriage.

[West Coast Democrat]

35. This poll will only demonstrate to those foolish enough to consider Nader

that voting for him may very well throw the election to Bushco.

[Protagoras]

83. This poll demonstrates

the fickleness of some public opinion and probably very poor methodology and a huge margin of error. You are probably seeing a number of temporarily pissed off dems giving Nader responses just to scare the dems...which may not even be a bad thing. A lot of people will do the same in the remaining primaries in order to push the party to the left...while still voting for Kerry in November regardless.

Give it 2 weeks and check it against the next set of polls. If Bush is ahead of Kerry on the same polls that were showing Kerry ahead...then we can kick and scream. Till then I think we're jumping at shadows WAAAAY too soon. This is a blip on the radar. Bush isn't gaining popularity...it's only March...the election is in November...everything we see now can and probably will change utterly by then.

[Cleita]

36. I don't think it's the left that is supporting him this time.

I think it's the right of center party or can you say Libertarian?

[janx]

39. A lot of independents voted for him last time.

It wasn't just the far left.

[Raya]

40. Who Cares who is supporting him. His PRESENCE IN POLL IS THE PROBLEM

[janx]

41. That may be true, Raya, but if he's running

then the media and other pollsters are all going to include him. :shrug:

[Iverson]

57. darn that democratic choice!

Maybe the two mainstream parties should team up like they did to punish the League of Women Voters for including others in the Presidential debates.

We could call it The Bipartisan Commission on Debates. Third party candidates wouldn't be allowed in the polls until they registered at least 15% in the polls.

[ozone_man]

42. I think you are right.

Libertarians are furious with Bush and Kerry is not an option, so Nader is the natural choice. I think Nader will pull evenly or maybe even more from Republicans than Democrats.

Now I don't know about Greens and Progressive, but if Kerry is seen as not being appreciably different from Bush as many might conclude from IWR vote, Patriot Act, etc., then they might vote for Nader. In the end the Democrats have no one to blame but themselves, not Nader for running a candidate so close to Bush. It's the DLC way.

[formernaderite]

62. Alot of Libertarians voted for Nader last time too.

I would expect them to vote for him again, or whomever the Libertarian Party chooses.

[SOS]

80. Michael Badnarik is running

for President on the Libertarian Party ticket.
Funny how Nader gets media coverage while Badnarik is unknown. Wonder why that is? My guess is that only 3rd party candidates that help Bush can get on Meet the Press.

[MadHound]

46. Gee, maybe the Dems have to bring something to the table,

Besides a ham sandwich that is.

Look, what the Dems need to do is to give their base something to vote FOR, rather than just assuming that fear of Bush will compel most to vote for Kerry, with bully boy tactics taking care of the rest. You people bitch and moan that folks are staying at home, or voting Green, or voting Nader. Well, think about it, all three of those symptoms are indicative of voting for something. The non-voter sees nothing to vote for, so they stay home. The Nader & Green voters(most of which are disillusioned Dems) are voting for platform planks, universal health care, marriage for all, gay or straight, civil rights issues, a living wage, the list goes on and on.

And I would be willing to lay dollars to doughnuts that if the Dems came out in their party platform with two-three planks co-opted from the Greens or Nader, that the vast majority of those people, pragmatic as they are, would vote for Kerry. I would lay out further good coin that you could get a good twenty-twenty five percent of the non-voters to turn out if you would put universal health care in the platform, for real this time, not that smoke and mirrors that Clinton pulled. The reason for that is that a great many of the non-voters are poor, with little reason to believe that either party is going to do anything for the little man. If you give those folks something that would immensely improve their lives as a reason to vote, they would.

But simply relying on the old mantra of "who else are you gonna vote for" will simply insure that the Dems will be losing for a long time. You ABBers and Kerry bully boys are always shouting about "compromise" and "how you can't get everything you want". Well folks, that's a two way street that your cruising on, and just because your boy won the nod it doesn't mean you can ride roughshod all over. That was the downfall in '00 and '02, does it take another lesson for you folks to learn, or can we all get a slice of the pie this year and taste the sweet flavor of success? The writing is there on the wall before you, will you pay it heed?

[pacifictiger]

47. I don't think its a big deal

this early in the game. I haven't heard him on the issues yet. If he is attack dog for bush at this stage great. I doubt whether he will gain enough momentum to carry him through all the way to the general election - particularly if all the other democratic nominees work to promote voting for Kerry after the convention.

[Forkboy]

49. Didn't take a whole lot to destroy that image

huh,who would have thunk it? :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Nader is just giving liberals something to vote for

Their own demise.

[Atlant]

67. Which the Democrats never do any more.

> Nader is just giving liberals something to vote for

Which the Democrats never do any more. The best they can seem to
manage is "Vote *AGAINST* the Republicans!".

Atlant

[zoeyfong]

51. What the DNC doesn't understand is that Nader's issues aren't

going away, so they better find a strategy to actually get those votes, rather than just whining about losing them.

[Iverson]

56. the single permissible response is additional browbeating

Let us set aside for the moment that the poll is likely an overstatement of Nader's support.

Let us also set aside for the moment whether all of Nader's support truly comes from the left; I'm sure that a substantial portion of it does.

Your thesis is that democratic choice "destroys" Democratic chances for an anti-incumbent landslide. This rests upon a confused warrant. Either you argue that his independent candidacy will stop people from voting Democratic for Congressional candidates, or else you argue that momentum during the election is something that voters will be able to observe, even though results aren't available until after the polls close.

Sorry, but you haven't thought it through. Neither condition makes sense.

The real problem here is the presence of a democratic choice, which should be a clue that the left needs more browbeating and umbrage from the center. Policy is off the table for discussion.

Fortunately, the mere mention of Nader's name is enough to throw otherwise intelligent people into a simpleminded orgy of denunciation and thinly veiled wishes of physical harm. But of course Hillary-bashing is completely different.

[robbedvoter]

58. Polls are manufactured for propaganda. The winner image was constructed

to malke dems pick Kerry, then Edwards - now , 3 days later is removed to make Bush look good. Electability - a pipedream made by the media, bought by the sheep.
What did W do the past 3 days to finally be even/lead?
The 9,11 ads?
No. The end of the mcprimaries. The DNC had his wish: primaries done - media can return to their usual: kissing W's ass while bashing dems (any nominee would have had it). I miss the time where several dems were bashing W and the nedia was distracted picking a nominee for us from extolling the fearless leader.
Nader is inconsequential- spending any energy on him is futile.
BUSH IS THE TARGET!!!!!!

[MessiahRp]

63. Does it bug anyone else that

once again Nader avoids fighting through any primaries and gets National recognition and some how siphens votes from the left in the GE, yet the guy would finish maybe next to last (with Sharpton behind him and Kucinich ahead of him) in Democratic primaries because nobody would take the guy as a serious choice?

Yet he avoids the party and makes a name for himself because of it when he is not qualified to even make it out of three primaries in the real race.

Fuck Nader.

Rp

[HFishbine]

69. Don't forget that fucker Undecided

That bitch Undecided always seems to take a lot of votes away from my preferred candidate in opinion polls; that egotistical bastard.

[Mairead]

71. "His 6% in Poll Destroys Kerry Image as WINNER."

Is that anything like 'casting a cloud upon what {Kerry} claims to be the legitimacy of his election'?

[robbedvoter]

75. Polls I believe: Angry voters abandon Bush in droves

"Publicly, Republican strategists say they are not worried about dissension in the GOP ranks but privately they admit real concern. 'The fallout is significant,' admits one GOP pollster. 'We could be seeing as much as 15% of Republicans who won't vote for the President.' This jives with a CBS News poll that shows 11% of those who voted for Bush in 2000 now say they will support the Democrat. Another poll by Princeton Survey Associates finds 19% of Republicans and 56% of independents say they can't support Bush... in the last two months, a dozen Republican members of Congress have told me they will distance themselves from Bush in their reelection campaign. At a recent GOP retreat, Dennis Hastert faced hostile Republican conservatives, led by Rep. Chris Cox. At one point during a heated closed-door debate, one angry GOP house member told Hastert: 'We might as well have a Democrat in the White House. At least we know what to expect from a Democratic President.'"
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4106.shtml

[oasis]

76. A GOP funded Nader provides a smokescreen for Diebold mischief. (eom)

[Leilani]

77. I think Nader supporters are fed up Americans

I disagree with those on the left, who believe that Kerry moving left will bring him additional voters. I don't agree. He is rated as the MOST liberal Senator; if he moves left, he will lose moderates & independents.

I think Nader appeals to the disaffected voters: those who are fed up with BOTH parties & politics as usual. These people are looking to change the entire system. A lot of these people voted for Perot, & voted for McCain in 2000 primaries. They are not caught up in liberal/conservative as much as they are reform/status quo.

There's a lot of angry people out here. Go to any Conservative website & see how many of them are threatening to go Constitution party, because they feel Bush has betrayed them.

And then finally, a lot of people will just stay home.

[WI_DEM]

79. Nader will not be the Green candidate

and he will also not be on ballot in many states. It is doubtful he will attain 6% in this vital election year especially after getting less than 3% in 2000.