The reason I am an angry Edwards Supporter.

[saracat]

I am an angry Edwards supporter because my Party , in collusion with the MSM, has deprived me of my voice.It has taken away my right to make a choice.

It is now painfully obvious that some sort of backroom deal, that we are not allowed to talk about, forced my candidate, who had the only decent platform representing the people against the corporations, out of this race.They did it so they could "make history" and enact their American Idol like Showcase at the Kodak theater without the interjection of any "reality".And I call BS on their History. I don't care about their gender and race wars.

I call BS on all the backroom deals, the lies and the misinformation that has been spread in order to ensure that those of us who cared about a platform instead of a "celebrity" be marginalized.

Damn straight, I am angry and I will continue to be.The future of the nation is not something to play games with and what we have just seen gamesmanship at the highest level.

I alway knew we had been deprived of our votes in 2000 and in 2004 but this time,it seems we have lost our voice in our Primary as well. It is sad that we cannot do better and I am ashamed and angry.

I will continue to work to make sure that the platform of the Peoples Candidate gets attention by trying for Delegates. Make,no mistake this is not about a personality.It is not about John Edwards. It is about what he and what we as a nation ought to stand for.

Some will say this is just "sour grapes".But it is not.It is the culmination of a long period of disillusionment.This time, however, I will know I at least tried, in some small way, to give voice to the voiceless.

I will stand with the poor and disenfranchised who get no benefit from these backroom deals. I will support the platform of John Edwards on Feb,5th.

[Cleita]

1. K&R

:thumbsup:

[kelligesq]

76. Huzzah Saracat. You spoke eloquently for me. Thank you.

:cry:

[Maribelle]

91. saracat - - you are not alone in feeling the way you do

As a Floridian, I would imagine many of the 1.5 million registered democrats feel exactly the way you do on this.

[foxer]

113. All my alarms went off, red lights flashing everywhere.

If he were to drop out that's not the way he would have done it, he knows how to make a concession speech and that wasn't it.

"DANGER,DANGER Will Robinson"

[ChiciB1]

150. kelliesq... Why Don't You Repeat What You Posted At The Other Thread??

It's more compelling, and sure "some" will holler "conspiracy" theory... but I got a strange email myself a couple of days ago.

Has there been any more information about the infighting or do you think it should just die?? I think both you & saracat are "spot on" with this, and I feel you CAN'T speak out too forcefully, but you did post it at the other thread.

I'm uncomfortable reading this thread and having John Edwards being called a weakling when that's FAR FROM TRUE!! Plus it's important to keep the message going that regardless of who votes in the GE, Edwards STILL HAS NOT endorsed, he's still on the ballots on MOST if NOT ALL the Super Tuesday ballots, and I feel he wants people to still vote for him "without" saying it.

The email I got from him thanking me for my support asked me to watch the video of his speech in NO. THEN, after that the speech was printed, word for word so I could read it. I have never seen that on any emails I received, AND I can say as far as I'm concerned, the speech and the WAY he delivered it was NOT a John Edwards I have ever seen! He HAS NO SPEECH WRITER, he speaks easily and he never "reads" off of paper.

Not only that, I had just received email updates about how well his donations were doing and plans that were being made. Then BOOM... all over! If anyone who has been around for any length of time, you should KNOW that deals are made all the time. Just read his speech then listen to what was said during the last debate...many words are very similar.

They didn't "have" anything on him to expose, but I feel most certainly PRESSURE was provided in some fashion. I have seen "very" little of what the Democrats have done since 2006 and whether we like it or not, many Democrats are DLC and many are part of what is known as the D.C. Elite!

I wish I could find the Hardball comments made by Chuck Todd & David Gregory after one of the debates. The in fact said this... Edwards did great, but Washington "hates" John Edwards and THEY will work against him. The word HATE was used, and when Tweety asked who they were talking about, Todd just grinned and said back TO TWEETY and said "You Know Who "THEY" Are!" I have asked if anyone can find that tape, but I can't remember which debate it was. And it was the after debate wrap-up when it was said. I KNOW IT WAS SAID, and the word HATE, not dislike... but HATE was used!

Pressure and having something on someone are TWO different things. Then just think a little further. Are we NOW going to deprive other states BEFORE SUPER TUESDAY of voting for who they want?? Has this EVER been done? Why hold ANY primaries then, or why don't we just let the first Primaries make the choice and "we the people" should just be fine with that!

For crying out loud, "history will be made" are your operative words here, and that's what the Democrats want out there. Don't for a minute think that PRESSURE isn't a HUGE factor! Edwards agreed for reasons we will ever know, but he didn't do it so "history could be made," he was much too committed and he DID intend to forge ahead. Here in Florida, as I watched the votes come in, he WAS getting his 15%, but in the end... funny how it ended up with 14.4%! Why didn't they just really stick the knife in and make it 14.8% or even 14.9%? I know many many Edwards supporters, even here in this very RED county.

So, this is long, but for those of you who are calling him WEAK, just stop and THINK!!

[kelligesq]

166. Well said Chici. Yes, it was Gergen on 1 station, and Fineman & Altman on the other - all

giving the lowdown to Tweety and Olbermann, I dont remember who Gergen was speaking to but it was after the lst debate where John Edwards did so wonderfully. I do remember his saying after this debate one candidate was going
to drop out It was late at night. Apparently everybody knew except John and his people who were traveling and preparing for the next states.

Golden or two AMericas has posted the link to the other thread about the "Heavyweight" and further down I have posted the whole story WITH names-

I would like to get it out to all the blogs, what goes around comes around, there's no reason why Kennedy should not suffer equal damage to his reputation that he so cavalierly caused John Edwards. IMHO

But I would put that up to private discussion by certified Edwards stalwarts.

I'd like to have Saracat's input - because we certainly would not want to cause further harm to John, but on the other hand John is not responsible for actions of exuberant supporters.

Two Americas has written some very interesting conjecture in posts below, well worth reading. He mentions Tom Donahue of Chamber of Commerce threat directed at
any one presenting a populist platform, and specifically John.

I'm sure now it was Donahue's influence with the 5 media owners that brought Edwards coverage down to 15% for the year 2007 as shown in the graph while Obama and Clinton were getting over 90% coverage each even after John won the debates there was hardly any mention of him,

So the planning to stop John was probably in progress from the moment Donahue wrote that letter. But it never occurred to me that he would have connections
to Kennedy until Two Americas brought it up.

Karen Silkwood. There was a movie about her - and she might even be on google.

There was a time in the 80's and early 90's when the FBI would have been on this like white on rice, but those people are retired, and you probably have Falwell's graduates filling their places and taking orders from the wrong people.The FBI is after all answerable to "waterboarding is not torture" Mukasey and Mukasey is a cover up man for boooooosh and the corporations.

The world is watching and wondering what the hell is going on, or maybe they know since our elections since 2000 have been rigged - recall that even Cuba offered to send poll watchers. The world knows we have become what used to be referred to as a third world country.

The electoral college with its Super Delegates, governors, congressman past and present put in place since the 70's so that if the populace, that's us, made another "mistake" in their opinion,like Jimmy Carter, they could counteract with the Super Delegates weighted votes, has to go.

If anything is to be done about it, its through the grassroots and the blogs until the msm cant ignore it. Then again they have no trouble ignoring Sibel Edmonds and she has finally gotten her story out to the world through the UK papers...but US MSM still mentions not a word.

Another avenue is the Viet Nam Vets organization who support John , Discussion
of their picketing the MSM was lightly discussed. The more I think about that,
the better it sounds.

Anyway Chici, read Two Americas and Golden's posts and further down you will see
my post " I see no reason not to expose the name..... "

Let the blind and the young call it conspiracy theorists....but when you put the pieces together, the talking heads reports, the occurrences, the facts fall in place.

This is a trial. Not only of the Democratic party but of this broken system of government which at this moment in time looks to be beyond repair.

[ChiciB1]

173. GREAT! Glad You DID Post It!! It's Simply A Sham Anymore! As I Said...

this is my last one as an activist. I've tried so hard for so many years and each time out it gets WORSE. I feel like a fool sometimes for having "tried" so hard to keep my daughter & son involved. My grandson is voting for the FIRST time this year. Well, he just voted in the Primary and NOW I'm doing a 180 on them and saying I'm sticking with Edwards no matter what!

All my "speech's" to them about America & Democracy have now fallen by the wayside and I feel a bit foolish for having made them. The distress and depression I have been through this time around have just completely turned me off!

BTW, I DID answer the email I got from Kennedy & Kerry and told them how I felt! The name "Huey Long" just rings in my ears these days. I don't remember him, nor was I active in any way back then, not even close, but I know the story, I DO know about certain things in Chicago, and of course read so much about Tammany Hall, so it's been around forever. But to do this NOW, even before some people have a chance to vote is just a disgrace!

As I said, after this GE, I suppose I'll just be NPA! It is truly sad, but mostly against all I've believed in.

[Joe Chi Minh]

176. Same here, saracat. Very well said! It seems the outrages grow ever greater and

more insufferable. With the plutocrats of the far right effectively paying for and imposing their own choice of Democratic candidates even in the Democratic Primaries, American Democratic voters seem to have hit rock bottom.

Nobody knows to what extent the voting machines will continue to be guilty of "professional misconduct"(!), but if John's name is left on the ballot, a victory without all the prior razzamatazz - which I believe in an honest election would occur, because people need bread, health care and a roof over their heads, even more than they need hope and "change" - would be all the more resounding.

[DaLittle Kitty]

341. K&R!!!! Well Said and Well Done... The Truth That You State IS The Problem...

We will see now as this charade moves forward the weeds that will result from these sorry seeds fertilized by Corporate $ and Corporate owned and Directed voices through the MSM... THEIR VOICE... NNOOOTT OURS! :argh:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. I'm an EDWARDS supporter, and I'm not sure I understand what the hell you're talking about....

... What do you mean? Who's stopping you? Nobody forced Edwards to do anything. You're making him seem like some weakling. I think you have some motive for doing this, but I'm not quite sure what you're real motive is yet. I guess I will find out soon enough, won't I?

[saracat]

8. My motive? I am just saying what I think. I am standing up against party politics and

taking stand for what is right.For other "motives' you can look to the DNC.Just my opinion.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. Fine but you just made Edwards out to be some king of weakling.

I'm not sure I understand your point in thinking he's being led around by the nose as if he had no faculties. Or do you mean to hint that he had something to hide? I sure hope not.

[saracat]

13. Neither. But he is a patriot and loyal.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. Ok nt

[liberalhistorian]

130. Then he should have stood up and fought and not

caved in so quickly.

[Two Americas]

345. So should we all

Had we all, starting 20 years ago, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Vincardog]

12. As an Edwards supporter I see exactly what the op is talking about.

I do not see either of our candidates being willing or able to lead the massive changes demanded to save our government from the corrosive influence of parasitic corporations. Does anyone believe either will demand the investigations and trials demanded necessary to purge the fascists from our government?

I believe they will both "look ahead" to overlooking the fraud collusion and corruption AGAIN.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. Edwards was not threatened. Edwards is one tough man. Nobody threatens him. nt

[Two Americas]

55. I wish that were true

I fear we seriously underestimate the powerful forces that are at play here.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

71. What would he be threatened with? Do they have something on him? I doubt it. nt

[foxer]

110. Maybe Kate's accident wasn't an accident

[Sarah Ibarruri]

115. Look... I believe 9/11 was "too convenient" for Bush, but honestly.....

... I think the reason Edwards got out of the race was because the corporate media was shutting him out, thereby rendering him unknown among the majority of Americans who don't read books, investigate news areas on the Internet, read Internet blogs, etc. That wasn't a conspiracy theory. The corporate media really did shut him out. As a result, he quit.

[foxer]

119. JFK ,RFK, and MLK we're all lone gunmen right?

And Wellstone's plane fell from the sky. Wakeup, the "entrenched money interests" are not nice people, genocide is not beyond them. A single politician is not a problem

[Andrea]

180. Doesn't the fact that the corporate media acted in concert

by definition mean there was a conspiracy? I respect what you are saying about John not being a weakling and I certainly agree that there is nothing they could "have" on him (he's been thoroughly vetted), but clearly people acted in collusion. Collusion = conspiracy = there must have been some way they did it.

[kelligesq]

195. Andrea, read all of Two Americas here.......... - you do know

there is a petition for a class action suit against the Cable channels and MSM
for their non coverage of Edwards - and McCamy and Daily Kos have posted all the proof online?

[Andrea]

199. I didn't know that

Thank you. I definitely want to get my name on that petition.

[cynthia]

300. What accident

I missed something here

[foxer]

351. Was in a auto accident last week, wasn't injured

[burgundy floppy hat]

158. neofeminist male shoe nazis...jus sayin....

financed by British Petroleum.

Spread the word, fight the power!

Hi Joe...

[puebloknot]

77. I am sincerely curious. Do you know Edwards personally?

Do you have some inside information that shows Edwards was not threatened or pressured to drop out of the race?

Your statement is so strong that it cause me to wonder how you know this. Do you have a link to some definitive information about why Edwards so suddenly withdrew?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

117. I only know 1 person that knew him personally many many years ago, and he says the man is

powerful beyond belief. He looks so handsome that you wouldn't think of him as some kind of powerful individual, but he is.

[puebloknot]

264. So you don't have any facts to back up your assertions. That's what...

...I was looking for.

"Handsome" has nothing to do with it; it's his message that is causing him to have a hard time getting media coverage.

And remember Paul Wellstone? He was powerful beyond belief...until he wasn't!

[Horse with no Name]

112. Edwards loved the party and the country very much.

It was fracturing to irreparable depths and he chose to stop part of it. IF we keep this process up to March, our party will be more divided than the country is today--thus handing the Presidency to McCain.
The Primary infighting needs to stop--and hopefully on Super Tuesday it will.
My guess is that Edwards will throw his support to whoever wins the most on Super Tuesday since neither of the remaining candidates comes that close to his platform so that we could have an apparent candidate.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

118. You're so right. Edwards loves the Democratic Party. A lot of the divisiveness.....

... is not merely due to Dems disagreeing. It is to Republican plants, who have used the Rovian tactic of dispersing themselves like cancer among all Democratic forums and chats for the purpose of demoralizing and sabotaging. Republican plants will pretend to be Dems, then, for example, some will attack Obama, some will attack Hillary, some Republican plants will say, "Oh I'm a Dem and I don't plan to vote for anyone." This encourages the more gullible Dems to act stupid, and demoralizes the ones who are easily convinced, plus it encourages the less strong to begin attacking candidates viciously, and even to say they're not going to vote at all.

Republican plants capitalize on the arguments the media poses for the candidates, and they capitalize on the ensuing arguments between the candidates themselves. Before long, they've caused havoc, demoralized everyone, and the party is divided and bickering. I first saw them and caught them doing this in 2000. I don't know if they did this before, but the Internet lends itself perfectly to GOP Republican paid operatives to fracture the Democratic Party sites. Republican plants are in DU just as they are in other Democratic Party sites on the Internet.

I think we need to start doing the same thing right back to Republicans on their sites, their chats, etc. I swear we do. I'd volunteer. :evilgrin: I may just do that. What's your opinion?

In the interim, what I'm doing on DU is blocking all negative, bashing posters, and asking others to do the same.

Maybe I'll put this in an OP?

[ChiciB1]

190. You Already Made An OP About "the Plants" Which I Don't Know About

myself. I have been here for quite some time now, I'm no "plant" of any sort, and I have NEVER even checked ANY FREEPER website. You continually make this point, but I have seen many of these people here, posting over and over.

But, just for myself... I'm a Liberal, have been a Democrat FOREVER and this is an insult to me. Simply because we differ does not mean we're part of some KBG type thing. YOU can believe as you wish, I don't know your age, but I know you DID support Edwards one time. But now I see he and his campaign message have left you in the "dust!" And seeing this only confirms my thoughts about how much we have become such a "throw away" society. Even when it comes to politics!!

When I believe in something, I'm not just jumping ship because MSM tells me I need to "MOVE ON!" Not trying to hurt your feelings nor do I think I'll be able to make you see, JMHO!!!!

I AM NO REPUKE!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

240. I'm not accusing you of being one, but that there are Republican plants in here is certain. nt

[Andrea]

193. Good idea for an OP

I think it is a hard question. We need to not be naive because this certainly goes on. We've seen it with some obvious trolls at least. On the other hand, how do we remain reasonably vigilant without becoming paranoid and doubting our fellow Dems? Then we would be playing right into their hand.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

254. A good start is to point out the POSITIVE aspects of each candidate rather than focus on negatives

Republican paid operatives *always* go about pointing out negative aspects. Demoralizing the Democratic base is EXACTLY the intent of the Republicans. Our intent here is to get the Republicans out, and afterwards START WORKING towards making it a more progressive country from the bottom up. Nothing changes in one day with one election.

[mrbluto]

370. Fire with Fire?

Turnabout is not fair play in this case.

Sabotaging dialog is NOT what we need to do.

We should actually wish them the best, most clear and constructive dialog possible.

Why?

Because once they had that sort of discussion they'd vote democratic. Possibly even the progressive wing of the democratic party. (whether they'll have a chance to this year is debatable)

Check out "What's the Matter with Kansas?". It's about how twisted tactics have deluded people about what their real interests are.

Now if one were to openly engage in a dialog with sincere Republicans that wouldn't be dishonest.

Using "sockpuppets", etc. isn't worth the blowback anyway. For every opinion you sway hundreds will get muddled once the meddling came to light. Also we'd have no right to complain when they used similar tactics to us. There'd be that many more people who would throw up their hands, say "a plague on both houses" and tune out entirely.

Democrats should want an open, honest, earnest dialog.

We should want even our opponents to make their best, unfettered case - how else can we prove our side is correct, or discover that we're wrong, or arrive at agreement, or negotiate workable compromises, or commit to durable solutions?

Sheer force? Misinformation?

No.

Do not build with lies.

[kelligesq]

174. McCain will likely be your next president. Neither Obama or

Clinton have a chance. Even if Clinton won she will lose, ala Gore.

There's not a chance in hell that this country will legally elect Obama, and if
the machines are fixed so he does I would be quite surprised if all hell wont break loose.

[Andrea]

189. I keep saying

that there is not an advantage in wrapping the nomination up early and no one is listening.

1) More candidates means less divisiveness - it's not an either/or proposition, it's not us v. them, it's choosing among the options.

2) An unknown outcome means more media attention to the party and our issues. Once our nomination is wrapped up, we become yesterday's news until the convention. We will receive much less media attention. The Republicans are not doing this. McCain is their front-runner now, but they aren't pushing their other candidates out.

3) A longer process is more democratic. More people get to consider their choices and vote while it still means something. Everyone gets to learn more about each candidate.

4) A longer process gives us a better chance of choosing an electable candidate. We will be seriously damaged if this scenario comes about (and it is very possible and more so the sooner we settle on a nominee):
a. Candidate X becomes the apparent nominee on date Y.
b. Serious electability issue about the nominee (could be a scandal, a health issue, a change in the country's circumstances or other item)
comes into play on a date later than Y.
c. We are stuck with the nominee and the Republicans win.

[ChiciB1]

196. What Really Irritates Me About This Thought Is The FACT That All

was done BEFORE Super Tuesday!! How does THIS make sense?? What it says to me is that the OTHER states essentially DON'T count if they wanted to vote for someone other than the TWO right now!!

IF so many here are willing to let this happen, then it's ALL YOURS!! Play the game, but please don't whine when YOUR VOICE doesn't get heard!!

[robinlynne]

201. Then why did Edwards drop out?

[ChiciB1]

220. See Post 181! If It Doesn't Make Sense To You... Well I Don't Know!! You

may never understand. It's not Like this stuff hasn't happened before our time!!

It's just much more evident this time around!

[robinlynne]

283. I actually can't find post 181. I just don't see Edwards backing down to a threat.

if that is where you're headed.

[ChiciB1]

298. Sorry... Post 175 By Two Americas... n/t

[Name removed]

252. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robinlynne]

284. who would be paying me and for what reason, Mr Expert? You posted this same

accusation several times. SAy what you mean. I happen to be the most honest, uncorruptible person you will ever meet, but if you need to slander, explain why my questions and opinions would be paid for, and exactly who am I "operating" for?

[Name removed]

290. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

14. When it becomes clear enough to you that our party is dying, if not already buried,

then you'll "understand".

Her "motive". Riiiiggght... We Edwardians are just one giant conspiracy.

:crazy:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. Our party is dying because? Because you said so? I don't see our party dying.....

Our party would be dying if everyone were like you and thought like you (that the party is dying). Thank God that's not the case! The other day I went to a Democratic Party event and it ROCKED! What's dying about it is your words. Nothing else.

[bobbolink]

160. Attack and blame. Attack and blame. Attack and blame.

You're such a sweetie.

Grow a heart, and a brain.

[ChiciB1]

184. Way To Go... To Some Of Us Who Know The Democratic Party Of The

"big tent" and saw it in action, it's relatively easy to see how much THE PARTY has merged and is almost like the "other" Party!

I would like to quote from my "local" newspaper of today about the "stimulus package" and see what others think. This was on the FRONT PAGE -- TOP!!

Heading" Stimulus might not stimulate us...Fears that plan's mortgage element may drive baby boomers to other areas.

Copy: The part of Congress' economic stimulus package aimed at making big mortgages more affordable -- seen by many local mortgage brokers as an antidote for Sarasota's ailing market -- are unlikely to help.

Skip paragraph, then this...But in the end, rather than a national across the board increase, the House passed a new conventional-loan ceiling based on a community's median sales price. That will help markets like Fairfield County Conn.; House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's hometown of San Francisco: and even Naples. But it will do nothing for Sarasota, Manatee and Charlotte counties.

It looks like it is an exercise in futility, and it is not going to give us a lift at all," said Frank I. Fontanetta, president of Sarasota's Sentinel Mortgage. There's much more... I'm just posting a few paragraphs.

Now, I must also add that Sarasota County, once No. 1 in per capita income (now 3 I think) is not a destitute place. Plenty of money here, but this is was the papers are printing.

So HELP for places like where Pelosi lives and not inclusive for EVERYONE! I love what the Democrats are doing for me, how bout YOU??

[bobbolink]

186. Thanks, ChiciB1--- the attacks get hard to take.

As for the rebates... I don't even pay attention... it's all for those who already have.

Do you or anyone else realize that those of us at the bottom rungs get NOTHING????

Yes, we get cut and cut and cut, with nary a whimper from the loyal DUers, but.... hurrah for their money, while we go without.

This is the Democratic Party???????????????????

[ChiciB1]

211. bobbolink... Believe I KNOW Where You're Coming From... I'M Not

anywhere near wealthy, I even don't think I'm "middle-class" and I know many more who are in great need!

It SUCKS, and I do think THE PARTY has left us!
Very :scared: AND :mad:

[bobbolink]

222. .

:yourock:

:hug:

:pals:

[midnight]

51. Perhaps if you don't see anything wrong about a candidate who

was set to have another fundraiser the day he suspends his campaign, or that he is seen on more T.V. interviews and given more media exposure. Well then, his quick suspension doesn't mean anything to you. Glad you are more at peace with this than I'm.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. Okay, okay, I'll listen. Explain to me how Edwards was threatened. Give me a scenario. nt

[Two Americas]

72. I can answer that, Sarah, if no one else does

I can offer several plausible scenarios for that. I would be very, very surprised if pressure and threats were not the explanation.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

116. Then please do so. I'm curious what people are thinking Edwards was threatened with. nt

[Two Americas]

175. no problem

First, I want to say that I appreciate your posts very much, and have the utmost respect for your views and for the passion you bring to the board. I will give my opinion here for your consideration, and that is all I ask - that you consider my views. There is far too much heat and not enough light around here these days.

I think that we need to face reality and understand what politics is. Threats, horse trading, coercion, pressure, back-stabbing, back room deals, intimidation and power plays are not the exception in politics, they are the rule. In some ways, those things define what politics is. When Johnson was trying to get Civil Rights legislation passed, he called southern Senators and threatened to "cut their nuts off." There is no shortage of insider accounts of campaigns and administrations and Congress throughout history. Read about the deals that Humphrey made with Johnson to advance his career. Read about JFK's threats to governors in the southern states. And of course there was Nixon's heavy-handed politics - exceptional mostly in the sense that we know more about the inner workings there. When Lincoln was trying to get the amendment to the Constitution passed to outlaw slavery, he grabbed congress by the lapels and said I am the president of the United States, clothed in great power to help my friends and hurt my enemies, and everyone new exactly what he was saying: play ball, or I will f*ck you up.

We cannot know exactly how Edwards was forced out of the race. The politicians keep that stuff hidden from us, because they want to put a happy face on the whole mess for the sake of PR and keeping us docile and malleable. We do know that some very powerful interests wanted the Edwards campaign destroyed - and that should not surprise us. We do know that his speech was very contrived and forced and out of character. We do know that there was a dramatic shift in the way the two leading candidates presented themselves immediately after Edwards announcement.

We also can see the power plays mirrored right here in microcosm, since the maneuvering and power plays by the candidates filter down to the grass roots through a variety of channels, and people do the bidding and spread the messages that the handlers of the candidates want disseminated.

Powerful people wanted the Edwards campaign deep-sixed. Those people have tremendous leverage over all of our politicians. They can pick up the phone and accomplish more in five minutes than all of us working together can accomplish in ten years. To deny that this is the truth about American politics is to be completely divorced from reality.

I think the Edwards campaign was too risky for the party leadership, antagonized and provoked too many rabid and powerful attack dogs who could seriously damage the Democratic party politicians, upset the power balance too much, and a calculated decision was made among the party leaders that Edwards needed to go - "for the good of the party." Things were getting out of hand - Edwards was lighting fires that were a little too dangerous to those holding power, and that needed to be suppressed before things spun out of control.

I imagine that Edwards was told something like this - "look, John, you are doing a marvelous job, don't get us wrong, but this just can't happen. You have to play ball, and there is just not going to be support for what you are doing within the party leadership, and it is seriously upsetting corporate interests who can hurt us and everything we are trying to do. We need to compromise, John, you know how the game is played. If you don't cooperate, we will mess you up and you know we can. We need to look at the big picture. For the good of the party, we can't have you flying around like a loose cannon getting people's hopes all fired up. Do you have any idea what a massive change it would require for us to get behind your program? How many skeletons in the closet of ours would be revealed? And the Republicans would use all of that, and they might beat us and then where would we be? We appreciate your idealism, and the issues you are raising, but the reality is that we just cannot piss off the big money people. We might not like that, but that is the reality we have to deal with, and they are getting very angry and making threats to all of us in the party leadership. For the sake of loyalty to the team, and the jobs and positions of so many Democrats who have helped you in the past, you must back down. If you don’t we will bury you."

A conversation such as that would be entirely consistent with what we know about all politicians and how they do business - completely congruent with every back room conversation between every politician in every campaign and every administration throughout our entire history.

[ChiciB1]

206. VERY, VERY WELL SAID! And Thank You For Saying It Better Than I Can!! n/t

[alteredstate]

232. Do you think Edwards will offer an explanation to his supporters?

I'm sure many of you have gotten to know him and Elizabeth. Could you ask them to tell you why he was forced to withdraw from the race?

[kelligesq]

250. He wouldnt even tell Joe Trippi, Trippi said in interview - so

do you think he will make public a threat made to him that could cost him or his family his life?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

295. Thank you my friend, for taking the time out to explain your points...

... I agree with you wholeheartedly that important interests did not want John Edwards as president. In fact, early on I was already hearing the insults about how he had been a plaintiff trial attorney (the attorneys I most admire, by the way), and we know that it's corporations that most fear plaintiff trial attorneys because plaintiff trial attorneys are often the only recourse ordinary people have to fight the rich (corporations and others).

You are absolutely right that probably someone or many people were saying, "John, step out of the race and endorse someone," or "John, you are already doing badly in the race, why don't you let the other two carry on?" and so on.

The fact is, from DAY 1 the media was almost hiding John Edwards. Now why would the media matter at all? The media matters because it is often the ONLY way the majority has access to or information about candidates. You and me, we are on the Internet. I get most of my news from the Internet. However, most people are not you and me. Most poeple turn on the TV and get their info there. Elections in this country (and really, in all advanced countries nowadays) are reliant almost exclusively on TV. There is no other way the majority can gather info. about candidates.

However, TV stations were keeping Edwards out of the Democratic race fray, out of the Democratic race focus, and every time I looked at a front page of a paper, or the news on TV, they showed only 2 Democratic candidates. Now, that's obviously what the mass media wanted Joe Smith everywhere in this country to see: 2 candidates, not 3. The result is that Edwards had to run a grass roots race and in this day and age, that's just not enough. He came third every time, and I'm surprised he got as many votes as he did, given that the mass media was keeping him away from the viewer's eyes. The mass media, in effect, eliminated Edwards as a candidate from DAY 1, and it led to his getting third in every state election. Had the mass media displayed Edwards on an equal basis with Obama and Clinton, I am 100% convinced that today he'd be the front runner, way ahead of Clinton and Obama.

It's the media we have to go after, which is why I posted this before and asked everyone to sign it, to gather 10,000 and ask the ACLU to file a lawsuit against the mass media for manipulating campaigns as they did with shutting out Kucinich and Edwards: http://citizenclassaction.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

But to return to the discussion. Once Edwards was shown to come out third every time thanks to the mass media shutting him out, it was clear that there were only 2 candidates to contend with, and he quit after being encouraged to. There was no way he was going to win the presidency. I gave my money and time to the Edwards campaign, but there's no way to fight the mass media. It does what it wants to us with OUR airways, and doesn't even have to pay royalties to us. I beg you to please sign the petition and pass it on.

As for Obama's people, of course they want to win. And Clinton's people, of course they want to win. We wanted Edwards to win didn't we? Weren't we willing to go the mile for him? Why should it be any different for Obama and Clinton? Let's please put everything in perspective. Sure, the Democratic Party got somewhat more right wing since the Repugnicans took everything over, but we can change it back. However, if we don't handcuff the mass media corporations and force them to do our will rather than the other way around, we're screwed forever.

And again, my friend, thank you.

[Two Americas]

339. thanks Sarah

Thank you for giving my thoughts such thoughtful consideration, and for taking the time to explain your view of this in such detail and with such clarity and honesty.

I agree with what you are saying in this post completely.

[MasonJar]

3. It there was in fact such a deal, obviously John was part of it.

[saracat]

4. Not really.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. A forced participant. IOW he was forced out.

[Sweet Pea]

37. yeah. Forced Out

Because he was doing crap all in the primaries and peopel simply did not support his message.

Face it. I know that truth hurts, but them's the facts.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

136. Bingo !

finally some common sense.

[mrbluto]

239. What is seen as "common sense" ...

...is often neither common, nor sense.

[mrbluto]

237. Are you....

...as clueless as your post indicates?

I doubt it.

Even if you don't agree with the idea of "forced out of the race" you should be able to understand how it would be done and that how he did at the polls wouldn't be a true test of his message given that possibility.

And then you'd make a better argument.

That you don't shows two probabilities:

a.) You're not capable of understanding and should be riding in a short yellow bus to wherever you attend school or go to work.

or

b.) You have some ulterior axe to grind.

Which is it?

[liberalhistorian]

132. Nobody could have forced him out without his

permission. He is not a child and does not have to do what the big boys tell him to do. If he was the fighter he claimed to be, then he damn well should have stood up and fought and not caved in. He apparently had no backbone after all.

[kelligesq]

178. Like JFK, MLK, RFK? Like Wellstone? It;s not we who should grow up and face reality.

[mrbluto]

243. What planet are you from?

Let's say where ever you work they said "We won't pay you?"

Maybe you're dedicated and you'd keep on working. (maybe you help kids or fight injustice)

Let's say they then said "We're going to support every one of your opponents"

Maybe you'd continue out of conviction and belief in your message.

Let's say they then said "We're going to make sure your message will never get out."

Maybe you wouldn't believe they'd succeed and you'd bull through it.

Then they say, after you see how successful they've been at squelching you, that if you win then they "hope" nothing happens to you or anyone you care about and that if you lose they're going to make sure that your name and message are associated with failure (like a Dukakis or Mondale) making it that much harder for the next guy.

What would you do?

Try a few scenarios, change it up a bit, get creative (but plausible).

Can you now say they "couldn't force him out without his permission"?

Perhaps you could say the same for victims of mugging.

Perhaps all the men in the "Batan Death March" were there willingly?

When you say "He apparently had no backbone after all." it only makes sense if I understand that you're deliberately and willfully attempting to tarnish his image. And that you're being lazy about it.

[liberalhistorian]

315. Oh, grow the hell up. I'm not trying to deliberately

and willfully do anything except express my own opinion, which you take way too far. Methinks you doth protest too much.

[mrbluto]

317. OK - so we'll go with lazy.

...and careless.

[surfermaw]

269. That is about what David Gergin said morning after the Fla.

[kelligesq]

296. SURFERMAW - do yu understand that you were misled yesterday on that thread " Why Edwards Dropped Out

and what she posted was total disinformation?

That Edwards DOES want votes and delegates. And he said " you never know what
the future holds" " Keep your powder dry" and WAIT - dont be in a hurry?

That he was not endorsing anyone? maybe until Feb 6, and maybe then not?

So many people seemed to fall for her garbage and were saying that now they
would swithc to Obama or Hillary.

instead of holding tight as he truly asked.

A copy of his telephne conference of Jan 30 was posted online. but she did not copy and paste it..

Even Saracat added something at the end.

You can find the whole report of the telephone conference of Jan 30 copied and pasted at the bottom of the thread entitled: EDWARDS SUPPORTERS - JOHN'S BACK IN

[ChiciB1]

205. Oh, I Do Wonder What IT IS You Are Missing! Then Don't Call It A Threat If YOU

don't want to!! Call it a "nudge" if that makes YOU feel better! If you're in the GAME and you don't play by certain "rules" some made up as you are playing, then sides are taken and MAJORITY RULES!!

In this case, the sides weren't even "sides"... John Edwards was a man on a mission abut AMERICA AND IT'S PEOPLE! Something that even here too many people can't even see! And what's worse is that so many of us... I dare say MOST of us have said "we are SICK" of what Repukes have been doing, we want something DIFFERENT!

WORDS mean NOTHING!! Action is what I WANT! So many in Congress have their Balls in a vice they can't extricate themselves from WITHOUT looking as bad as the Repukes... therefore "we the people" don't count anymore!

No, John Edwards wasn't "part" of it per se, but I DO think he was "given" a choice of sorts. A choice that only had one answer. TwoAmericas said it correctly! I can't even imagine what John Edwards must be thinking right now! I know what I would be thinking? But I don't hob-nob with people in POWERFUL places! I wouldn't PUT ANYTHING past anyone anymore!

I'm going to post something after this... just some words to a song... I wish you would read them.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. K&R!

[Critters2]

6. K&R

[cgrindley]

7. Grow up... there was NO grand conspiracy

There wasn't a collusion. There wasn't a conspiracy. Your candidate just figured that he hadn't won a state leading up to super duper tuesday. He figured that his support wasn't going to move from between 10-20%. He figured that realistically, he didn't have a dog in the race. He didn't feel like spending his own preposterous fortune (unlike Mitt who basically is buying himself a chance at victory). It was a rational decision.

Try to be like him. Rational. He saw he couldn't win. He dropped out. Now, he's playing politics to try to get something from the eventual nominee (whoever that may be). If anyone scores an outright win on Tuesday, then Edwards' strategy will be in vain.

It's not like him to make an astute political choice--for the most part, his political savvy is less than chartable.

You Edwards people need to stop whining. It's really irritating.

[saracat]

10. Go play with your own kind please.You are not appreciated in this thread.

[never_get_over_it]

21. Sorry - if he had "suspended" next Wednesday

I would agree with you but 6 days before super Tuesday makes NO political sense at all - SOMETHING happened....

[cgrindley]

32. He couldn't afford the cash burn. Pure and simple. Advertising over Super Sunday?

Countless tens of millions are going to be spent from now until Tuesday. This is going to be the biggest cash burn ever for politics. You'll see. It'll set new standards for financing. Edwards couldn't compete so he got out. His hand was forced--by the immense costs of campaigning coupled with his poor showing in the earlier primaries.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. It wasn't about money

in case you missed it.

Oh yes, you did

[saracat]

61. BS. He just did a $6 million ad buy and internal polling had him winning several primaries. You are

ill informed.He had just broken fund raising records and was campaigning Tuesday night,He was scheduled for a fundraiser in Washington State that was formalized Tuesday night. Trippi didn't even know.And that speech was not Johns'.He doesn't read speeches and that was not his phrasing.But you know best , I am sure. :sarcasm: Certainly more than those that were involved with the campaign opn a day to day basis.

[JDPriestly]

139. saracat, your post including the statement that "Trippi didn't

even know," is very true. John Edwards read his speech. He does not read his speeches. Elizabeth Edwards did not look at all happy about what was going on. Neither did Emma Claire (whose face is the barometer of the family). Of course, they would have been disappointed no matter what the reason was for dropping out. But John Edwards always has a certain confidence in what he is doing. I saw him on the Thursday he was in L.A. He seemed quiet and very concerned but determined. Something was quite wrong. And I don't think it was just the polls. John Edwards had the money. In some ways his campaign was increasing its fundraising ability. There is something here that does not meet the eye. I plan to vote for John Edwards on February 5. That is the least I can do.

What troubles me the most is what happened during the debate. The statements about Edwards by Hillary and Obama did not seem spontaneous. They seemed to be part of some kind of deal. I may be wrong, but I do not remember similar statements made in any of the previous debates when other candidates dropped out. Also, Hillary's obvious relief at being on the stage alone with Obama disgusted me. I had the feeling she was extremely pleased not to have to answer any more questions about her corporate donors. Those corporate donors and the corruption at the foundation of her campaign that those donors represent was her biggest problem.

John Edwards' departure from the campaign was not just suspiciously abrupt. It was also strategically very helpful to Clinton. Some old "friend" got to John Edwards. That's what I think. I wish that he had listened to us instead. The people he stands for are used to losing. But it was great that someone was at least speaking in a national forum on their behalf.

Now we are back to business as usual -- corruption as usual -- illusions as usual. The MSM is merrily rolling along -- fully in charge of the entire sham election. John Edwards was the one chance for some reality, for some truth, and we have lost it.

You can forget about anyone bringing the Bushies to account for the damage they have done to our country, for the lies, for the corruption, for the money lost, wasted and stolen, for the hundreds of thousands if not millions of dead Iraqis, for the growth of terrorism, for the disarray of our foreign policy, for the size of our national debt, for the fall of the the dollar, for the lack of health care even for children and for the loss of our civil rights. Just forget it. John Edwards was the only candidate with the intelligence and courage to demand an accounting.

America has lost its chance. There is nothing to do but watch the polar ice melt. Any hope for justice left America when John Edwards suspended his campaign.

[kelligesq]

188. Well spoken Priestly, but did you see John's face when

Obama kept saying he didnt take any pac money or lobbyist corporate money?

straight, cold in the eyes to Obama, and one eyebrow up.

Google has the contributions O has taken , from his time as a state rep- the biggest lobbyist representing NAM, Chamber, oil, HMO, insurance companies were
O's contributors. I said, Hillary and Obama are two sides of the same coin..both pigs at the trough, branded and indebted.

[raincity_calling]

208. There is something going on and

we need to be ready. Yes, I believe Edwards was pressured to get out, but he isn't out entirely. The campaign is "suspended" and he can still collect delegates. Therefore we must give him delegates.

Some of you have talked about "coded messages" and conspiracies. Yes, I believe all of this. I believe Saracat has mentioned some of the language before.

We must not give up hope on JE. There is something going on in the backrooms. We need to trust JE here.

Although I did not see the SC debate in its entirety, I was talking to someone today who said there was a section in the debate where JE was pointing out to both H & O that they are taking money from the wrong people. Apparently Edwards pointed out something in particular about Obama. Obama said something like "none of us are completely clean, but I don't want to talk about that. I would like to talk about security."

Does anyone remember that or have a clip?

[mrbluto]

248. He just made a $6m media buy?

This is like encountering an apparent suicide then discovering that victim had spent the previous day booking a trip to Disney World in six months.

Very fishy. Nevermind the polls - that on it's own is very suspicious.

[never_get_over_it]

90. Not buying that

The man has said for weeks he was in it to the convention - now I never REALLY believed that BUT I and I'm SURE many of us believed he would be there on Super Tuesday. I don't care if he didn't buy one TV ad - but did not suspend - because he had said over and over again he was in for the long haul, politically for him (with the public), it would have been better for him to "suspend" because he had a poor super Tuesday. Suspending 6 friggin days before when nothing of any real significance had happened - does not make sense. And too many - make him look bad because he broke "promise"

There are two things that make sense - God forbid something has gone terribly wrong with Elizabeth's health

or

He was pushed out SOME HOW -

Something HAPPENED it wasn't the money - it wasn't that John McCain was "surging" it wasn't anything we know about....and truthfully it pisses me off - because now we're left with two candidates - not a nickels worth of difference between them - and both likely to lose in November....

[kelligesq]

191. Never,......... You got that right

:mad:

[ChiciB1]

216. Well Said... We Need To Scream This Out!! There Are Ways too!

Elizabeth Edwards has been here at DU before, I actually had a couple of posts with her some time back. So IF they see what is going on HERE, they must know how WE feel.

It would only make sense to "suspend" AFTER Super Tuesday.... NOT BEFORE! It makes no sense to do it BEFORE! NONE! I don't know what those of you here don't "get!"

I myself wouldn't be screaming if it had been AFTER, but BEFORE makes NO SENSE AT ALL!!

[kelligesq]

262. Chici - calm down - we dont want to endanger anyone or anything- we'll

think this out carefully.

I've arranged for a private website where we will be able to discuss courses
of action

We cannot involve John or his family.

he has asked us to keep our powder dry, and as Saracat says WAIT

but we do know that he is entered in those 24 Feb 5 state races, and has kept his
name in Rhode Island and North Dakota.

We have work to do to get him votes and delegates.

WE have work to do to expose the MSM and the Chamber

The internet is a communication tool

But to have any effect, there have to be people in front of offices and buildings
picketing.

It would be nice to have some unions involved.

[kelligesq]

265. WHOSE A MEMBER OF A UNION HERE? a big union

[cynthia]

304. teacher's union

[ChiciB1]

277. EEEEWWWW-Kay! Difficult Though! n/t

[kelligesq]

183. Clue-if had suspended next Wednesday after the final debate-he was gaining too much following which

following. Which would have led to too much voting for him during The Feb 5 Super Tuesday - so next Wednedsay would have been too late for the powers that
wanted him gone.

They didn't want him in that love fest debate you saw. They wanted to showcase
the loving between Hillary and Obama. Get him out of there before he wins another debate and turns the country even more to restoration of America that was
and populism

[never_get_over_it]

194. I think we are pretty much on the same page....

what I'm saying is abruptly dropping out BEFORE super Tuesday makes no POLITICAL SENSE - had he gone through super Tuesday and done poorly and THEN dropped out that would have made WAY MORE SENSE

something definitely happened - and it was not money, and hopefully it wasn't Elizabeth's health, and it wasn't his showing in the early primaries - that is what I was saying....and I don't think you have to be some conspiracy nut to think that something smells to high heaven here....

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yael]

43. Are you serious?

:rofl:

Now, where did I leave my rose colored glasses?

[Vincardog]

24. If you do not like people standing up for democratic principals go ahead be irritated.

[cgrindley]

30. Claiming your candidate got forced out due to collusion is NOT standing up for democracy

it's actually the exact opposite. You are insulting the very process. You realize, don't you, that in some parts of the developing world, your words would basically be an incitement to poll violence.

[midnight]

48. I'm not sure why it is neccessary to question those who have

had their presidential candidates races stolen from them in 2000,2004, and now the primaries. It is that, very process, that is in jepordy. If we do not stand up when we percieve injustice to have occured, please tell me when we do stand up? Those who demand to be heard about these matters are not inciting insults or poll violence ,but democracy and the right to use our countries laws and have these matter addressed.

[cgrindley]

87. There was NO injustice... he was beaten and he dropped out

No conspiracy. No collusion. No nothing. Just a campaign that failed to inspire very many people.

[RetroLounge]

244. You keep telling yourself that, little boy

:eyes:

maybe it helps you sleep at night.

RL

[mrbluto]

253. Say it again and again...

Then maybe it'll become true.

The more you chant that the better the chance you become magically correct.

Don't bother with any pesky evidence or reasoning - just chant your opinion at us.

I'm sure we're all edified and illuminated by the pearls of wisdom you're casting into this forum.

I for one would love to give you the thanks you deserve.

But I really don't have the time.

[Vincardog]

65. Talk about insulting. Question everything under the bushitler mis-administration.

You seem to be inciting fear and loathing. Are you at the correct site? Since when is it an incitement to poll violence to question why the man who promised to be in it for the long haul suddenly drops out and reads a prepared statement explaining it. John Edwards has never read a speech and the phrases used in the statement did not sound like his normal oratory.

[cgrindley]

88. To claim that the Democratic Primary was rigged is anti everything we stand for here

and anti everything we stand for in this country and in the Western world. It's time that Edwards' people realized how offensive they were being. He was beaten fair and square. He dropped out of the race. Story over.

[Forrest Greene]

126. More Grandiose, Overarching

...accusatory statements intended more to throw a perceived "enemy" off-balance in the "fight" being had than to present anything resembling a rational, not to mention polite, response to the original post. I daresay this fellow feels rather threatened by whatever it is the Edwards candidacy represented to him.

"Story over." But, you see, you do not have it within your power to declare that. At least not to declare it & make it stick.

[saracat]

140. And Kennedy didn't steal Chicago in 1960? How old are you? Are you just illiterate?

And do you believe that Johnson got the Civil Rights Bill passed by being "nice"? Have you ever read any history? At all? My grandfather was part of the Roosevelt "brain trust " and they regularly "bribed " congresspersons. My grandmother had a hollow heel in her pump they put the money in.Grow up! Politics is not clean.

[JDPriestly]

146. Beaten by the same folks who brought problems to

Argentina, Bolivia and many other countries around the world. -- James Carville and the folks at Mark Penn's firm. Read Naomi Klein's book Shock Doctrine. Watch the film Our Brand is Crisis and then read the history about what happened in the countries discussed in that book and that film in recent times. You will see how "fair and square" the folks that run Hillary's campaign fight.

[Vincardog]

151. Is that the same "Story over" advice we got after the illegal appointment of Her BusHitler in 2000?

How about after the stolen elections of 2002 2004 and 2006? GET OVER IT is not an appropriate response to our legitimate concerns about the fascist take over of our government.

[kelligesq]

209. Vinca, and - would anybody care to agree with me that

the two parties are one now? or if you Prefer Fascisti Dems and Fascisit Repubs

because they shouldnt insult what those parties stood for in times past

Definition of Fascism by Mussolini: The joining of the state (interests) with the Corporations.

Okay maybe we should just call the country Corpamerica or United States of Corporations

[Vincardog]

221. The parties are both controlled by the same thing "Money". If we do not stand up and demand the

return of OUR government NOW we are in exactly the same position as 1930's Germany.

[kelligesq]

272. We are already in that positon. It takes 100's of thousands on

the streets AFTER the stage has been set by the bloggers and the information gets
out world wide - somehow still protecting John,

[robinlynne]

285. bingo.

[Name removed]

297. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robinlynne]

301. and you are who exactly? to tell me where to discuss.

[robinlynne]

303. Who are you to threaten me, and what is your threat exactly? so that I know exactly how to respond

to it.

[Name removed]

364. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChiciB1]

223. Sometimes I Say U.S. Of ASS!! n/t

[lisainmilo]

322. Except there aren't hardly any corporations here anymore!

Most moved across the border or overseas.


Well I guess we got corporate hog farms and corporate chicken farms!


just kidding...in a way.....

Yes.....the corporations are certainly looking out for number 1 and that ain't me or you!

[kenfrequed]

155. "Its against everything we stand for?"

Did you actually look at the words you typed?

Suddenly standing up and saying that his drop out might not have been above board because none of it made any sense is tantamount to, what sounds like in your words, treason against the western world?

I always thought asking questions and having a critical eye were valuable skills.

Of course this primary season has been rigged from before the word 'go' so I don't know why we should expect anything different.

[kelligesq]

215. Grindley -tsk-claim that process rigged - Do you know anyone in Ohio?

give em a call and ask what was the names of those guys who went to jail
for doing something with the ballots in the 2004 election....and wasnt something
wrong there also in the 2006 election?

play dumb or dumber...

On the other hand you could just google Ohio + fixed elections

I am curious as to whether you Do read newspapers? or online papers? or listen to
some boring newscasters? ever

[mrbluto]

256. Story over.

Yep.

When any authority figure uses that phrase you know it isn't the case.

You should know that!

...

Hey - you're baiting us! You want us to wonder what the f*ck happened!

No attempt at reasoning, no offered rational.

Stirring up curiosity and outrage.

Very sneaky.

Well played sir!

[Forrest Greene]

124. Here, It's Hoped We Become

...so baffled trying to figure out what is meant by "it's actually the exact opposite" that some of us fail to go on & be frightened by the deliciously obscure, safely deniable threat delivered in the last sentence.

"Actually" is actually another example of a clumsy, illegitimate attempt to dominate the conversation, implying that the speaker knows the "actual" truth, the "actual" reality of the situation, & that the listener does not.

Cheap tricks. (Not the Rock band with the checkerboard guitar.)

[kelligesq]

219. Hey Forest, I often start sentences with "actually" - quel insult !! :)

and sometimes with "in actuality"

:rofl:

[JDPriestly]

145. Do you know the story of the election of Jefferson to the presidency?

The then Republicans (Jefferson and Madison's side which opposed the Federalists) made a deal that Jefferson would run for president and Aaron Burr would also run and then Burr would be vice president. Jefferson and Aaron Burr actually got the same number of votes in the election. And when Aaron Burr saw this, he tried to renege on his promise to accept the position of vice president. This was a dishonorable thing to do since promises had been made. Eventually, the House of Representatives elected Jefferson to be president as planned. So, in a sense, Aaron Burr was "forced out due to collusion."

Politics involves dealmaking. That is the reality of how bills are passed and candidates chosen. So the point is deals are made in politics, sometimes under great pressure, that undermine the polls, and we are perfectly justified in asking if that is what happened here. (I'm not arguing that Burr should have been president, just that behind the scenes deals re nothing new, and they don't incite poll violence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Burr

Jefferson and Madison were not insulting the process when they made the deal with Aaron Burr. It is true that "in some parts of the developing world," the accusation of collusion would be an incitement to poll violence. But then, we are not in those parts of the world. And, let's face it, in some parts of the world, next to nothing can incite poll violence.

What happens in some parts of the developing world is completely irrelevant to what happens or should be happening in a country like ours with over 200 years of practice in building democratic institutions. You are the one who is trying to incite trouble. This is a civil forum. You should ask yourself whether you have the civility to participate in it.

As for our concerns about the Edwards campaign. Those of us who have participated in and watched Edwards campaign very closely are troubled by his abrupt suspension of the campaign. The Edwards campaign had sent volunteers and staff to California a day or so before his speech. The staff and volunteers were staying in the homes of campaign supporters. They left for work the morning of Edwards' speech not having the slightest clue that Edwards would drop out. Edwards decision was completely unexpected by those of us working on his campaign. And the language of the speech did not sound like Edwards. He knows his stuff. He does not need to read speeches. He didn't even take depositions when he litigated cases. The speech was scripted. That is not his style. That makes us wonder if it was approved by someone before he read it.

It was evident before Kucinich dropped out of the campaign that there were severe problems. He apparently had trouble getting the money together or paid on time for the recount in New Hampshire. Obviously that recount did not give him much hope for future successes in his bid. The reasons for his ending his campaign were pretty clear - - lack of money to wage a national campaign. But Edwards' donations were growing, and his volunteers were very enthusiastic and willing to work hard.

I have the feeling that Edwards' was pressured to stop campaigning in the interest of party unity. This sounds like a Carville/Mark Penn thing. These guys are really bad news. Now if you want to accuse people of actions that incite riots in developing countries. Those two are a good start. Read Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine and watch the movie Our Brand is Crisis. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0492714/

There you will learn how people incite violence in developing countries -- and why.

[cgrindley]

218. That was 200 years ago and the process was completely different

You people don't elect presidents and vice presidents that way any more. Your example is utterly irrelevant.

[Vincardog]

225. your constant insulting dismissal of well reasoned responses lead some people to believe

you would be more happy over in freeper-ville.

[cgrindley]

234. Do you or do you not elect people differently than you did during the turn of the 19th Century?

stop being disingenuous. Elections are no longer run in the same way.

[mrbluto]

259. Elections essentially are...

...it's the campaigns that are different.

But you knew that.

You're trying to lead this forum toward what is salient with reverse psychology. Cool!

You're "actually" pointing out that it's the way that campaigns happen that has tainted the process.

[cgrindley]

275. JESUS. Just read article 2, section 1, clause 2 and 3 of the fucking constitution

I meant that elections were not conducted in the same manner as they are today...

Clause 2: Method of choosing electors
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
The President and Vice President are chosen by Electors chosen as the state legislatures directs. The Constitution does not limit how a state may choose its electors, but in practice, all states have chosen electors by popular vote. Each state may choose as many Electors as it has Representatives and Senators representing it in Congress. (Under the Twenty-third Amendment, the District of Columbia may also choose Electors.) No Senators, Representatives or federal officers may become Electors.

Clause 3: Electors
The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not lie an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two-thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice-President.

[Vincardog]

268. Right the votes are no longer counted the results are served up by diebold and fascist sympathizer

[cgrindley]

281. Have you heard of the 12th amendment? Do you know why it was written?

voting used to be an incomprehensible nightmare. Why is it that the Canadian knows more about American civics than the American?

[JDPriestly]

360. You know. Generally, the intelligence quotient of posters here

on DU is pretty high. Maybe you should find a message board where you would fit in better.

[ChiciB1]

261. No... 200 Years Ago... It Was Much Simpler! TODAY... There ARE Ways & Means

to confuse, hide, deny and COVER-UP oh so easily! Has anyone been able to get ANY real information from BUSHCo Yet??

OUR Democracy of "we the people" is ALL about what IS hidden or CAN be hidden! Have you taken a look at the threads here at DU JUST about...It wasn't a SNUB, It Was a handshake! No it was a snub, it wasn't a handshake! And YOU would rather go on and on about THIS S--T than wonder about something REAL??

Denial?? Well, you know what they say about denial??

Plus, I did get an email from Kennedy & Kerry, AFTER I had told each Democratic organization AND Kerry & Kennedy to REMOVE me from their lists! Two days AFTER the "suspended" campaign speech! No, your 200 years ago theory doesn't even hold a "teaspoon" with me!

This ISN'T about "conspiracy, sore losers, candidate not tracking, but it IS about "dirty tricks" and some HIGH POWER Push! You can blather all you want about how so many of us are "nut-jobs" but you CAN'T deny that there MORE than a FEW of us! Our numbers are large! Just here at DU!!

And no, you didn't call us nut-jobs in those exact words, it's just what I read into it!

[cgrindley]

276. No it wasn't. It was needlessly complex and arcane

READ THE CONSTITUTION.

[JDPriestly]

362. cgrindley -- my post was not about the procedures used in

1797-1799, it was about the way people played politics. It was about how elections got fixed then and that if it could happen then, it could happen today. Politics is about making deals. But you know that. You are just playing stupid.

[JDPriestly]

361. I got e-mails too. And one of them was directly from the Obama folks.

The guy sending it seems quite nice, but it is pretty pushy.

I think somebody, some very pushy somebody used some strong language with Edwards about party unity. Whoever that was should be ashamed of him- or herself.

[JDPriestly]

359. No. It shows that political deals have always been made

and always will be and that politicians sometimes get carried away with ambition and forget their promises. Look at Bush. He promised not to get involved in foreign entanglements -- and was all the time planning to take us into Iraq. What a liar. Just as an example.

[mrbluto]

251. You forgot...

...to say your next line: "Nothing to see here - move along."

What the f*ck do I care what "...in some parts of the developing world, your words would basically be an incitement to poll violence."?

I live in the USA! We have freedom of speech here. Where the F*CK do you live?

"Insulting the process"?

If the process isn't robust enough to stand up to a few blog posts then what use was it anyway?

You post is just the sort of hand-wringing I'd expect from a weasely capitulating triangulating shill.

But of course you're not one of those, so I'll ask you to share your reasoning with us.

How can expressing doubt about a process weaken it? Or insult it?

If it does weaken it then should the process be made more robust, or should we just squelch those who express doubt?

Should the USA adopt any of the measures or policies similar to those in other countries?

Which ones?

Any of those countries a place where "words would basically be an incitement to poll violence."?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kelligesq]

224. Froggy, l o l, that's really a funny line. n/t

[liberalhistorian]

134. AMEN, and THANK YOU!

Very well-put, and I agree, it really is getting beyond irritating. He wasn't winning and he wasn't going to win.

[Divine Discontent]

156. I'll show you something "chartable"...

your own divisiveness - it's clearly marked on the map under smarmytown.

The OP is just showing they are hurt, and saddened by John's exit when he said he was staying in to the end, and appeared to be getting some delegates. Something - - - happened on the day he visited those Midwestern states where he was received by enthusiastic crowds. This race was not decided yet - so whatever that something is - a deal, 99% most likely, than so be it. We're certainly at a loss, because there's no question he won each debate repeatedly, according to Independents watching, talking heads, and the people on this board who come from all different walks of life.

Now, go chart another course in a different thread.

[bpeale]

162. if you really feel that way, THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU HERE?

just go about YOUR fucking business asshole

[cgrindley]

198. You're really upset. Perhaps you should sit down for a while

I'm posting here because there are people who are trying to manufacture a conspiracy where no conspiracy exists. It is the duty of every rational person to aggressively shout down anyone who is deliberately attempting to dissemble such nonsense. If you claim that man has never set foot on the moon, I'm not going to politely listen and write you off as a lunatic. No. I'm going to shout you down so that you cannot infect others with a patently idiotic viewpoint. Claiming that John Edwards was the victim of some shadowy conspiracy of the media, other candidates, and huge corporations and that he gave hints about this in a coded speech to his supporters is actually a crazy thing to believe, and it needs to be squashed. It's divisive nonsense. It's crap and those spreading it need to be confronted.

[kelligesq]

227. "It is the duty of every" how Germanic...where'd you say you're from?

der Faderland ?
der Hinterland?
der white supremacyland?

goodlord - you have been trained to jump to attention at der command.

Do some critical thinking. Open your mind and let questions in? Dont form a preconceived notion and demand everyone else conform to it. THINK - you dont have
to swallow everything hook line and sinker, but you do have to allow some alternative rationale than your preconceived notions.

[cgrindley]

235. I'm from British Columbia

I'm from a country that is twice as Liberal and Progressive as this country could ever hope to be.

This Edwards conspiracy crap is just damn dumb.

[kelligesq]

287. Grindley, and did you watch every debate & every pudit on American TV -were you privy to all that we

were?

I highly doubt it. Do you get Hardball and Countdown in British Columbia?
Do you get the American version of CNN ?

I highly doubt it.

Therefore you should llisten rather than throwing your 2 pence in.

[Vincardog]

229. Well praise Bejusus you are here to be the thought police! By what right do you decide these thing

[cgrindley]

236. I have the right because others in this thread have turned off their brains

there was no conspiracy.

[Vincardog]

270. What I am turning off is your blathering welcome to IGNORE

[ChiciB1]

271. READ THIS!!

For America... written by and sung by Jackson Browne

As if I really didn't understand
that I was just another part of their plan
I went off looking for the promise
Believing in the Motherland
And from the comfort of a dreamer's bed
And the safety of my own head
I went on speaking of the future
While other people fought and bled
The kid I was when I first left home
Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet
When the truth was known.
I have prayed for America
I was made for America
It's in my blood and in my bones
By the dawn's early light
By all I know is right
We're going to reap what we've sown

As if freedom was a question of might
As if loyalty was black and white
You hear people say it all the time-
"My country wrong or right"
I want to know what that's got to do
With what it takes to find out what's true
With everyone from the President on down
Trying to keep it from you
The thing I wonder about the Dads and Moms
Who send their sons to the Vietnams
Will they really think their way of life
Has been protected as the next war comes?
I have prayed for America
I was made for America
Her shining dream plays in my mind
By the rockets red glare
A generations blank stare
We'd better wake up to her this time

The kid I was when I left home
Was looking for his freedom and life of his own
But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet
As the truth was known
I have prayed for America
I was made for America
I can't let go till she comes around
Until the land of the free
Is awake and can see
And until her conscience has been found.

Kind of says a LOT to me!! This is what we "Marched" for back during Viet Nam! The song was written in the 80's BTW!

[kelligesq]

288. Grindley, if we came to yr country & started talking about yr politics of which we knew nothing

you would be highly irritated.

I suggest now that you butt out. If you want to listen and learn fine, but
you have no right to comment

[Name removed]

302. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andrea]

230. Hey, bpeale

Glad to see you!


:hi:

[bpeale]

292. thanks Andrea! nice to see you too

[kelligesq]

179. Grindley - a plush limbo listener.

[mrbluto]

245. How about you try being rational?

First I have to say calling your opponents opinions "whining" is a very high-schoolish, FauxNews-like tactic which should be recognized.

So, there was no chance he could have been the choice in a brokered convention?

If you admit there was a strong possibility of a brokered convention then you can't make the argument your post did.

If you deny that a brokered convention was a strong possibility then you're just plain stupid, know something the rest of us don't - or have some other agenda you're serving.

Which is it?

[cgrindley]

282. There isn't going to be a brokered convention

Edwards simply does not have the influence.

[mrbluto]

309. Your response....

...presupposes something we're unlikely get a chance to know.

But that's ok now that I understand your reverse psychology strategy.

You go cgrindley! Great job!

[earth mom]

16. Word. Read this thread people if you want an explaination as why & how Edwards was pushed out:

Post #95

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4337743&mesg_id=4342986

[gateley]

36. The problem I have with this:

" So he called in all the other heavyweights to bolster his candidate but that candidate still wasnt cleaning up the votes. So next this heavyweight demanded John drop out of the race even though he didnt want to, this so that his candidate would have a better chance at winning votes if there were only two candidates. "

There were what, two, three days at the most between the endorsement and JE's announcement. It's not as though there was even enough time to gauge the response/reaction to the endorsement.

[kelligesq]

75. I feel perfectly free to name the glory and vengeance seeker now, as if the media didnt know,

everyone knew except John, David Gergen republican consultant and talking head
even mentioned it on a late night interview a couple of days before John abruptly had to leave the campaign:

Kennedy was furious with Hillary for giving credit to LBJ for passing the Civil
Rights Bills, she forgot to mention they were the bills his brother JFK had written. Then Teddy called up Bill Clinton and suggested he "disappear" from the campaign - two Titans got into a shouting match over the phone - Altman reported this on Olbermann's show or it may have been Tweety's, but I recall his saying it - the next day news reported rumors that Ted Kennedy was going to endorse Obama -

But first Kennedy began to call in his chits," Kerry, his son Patrick, Caroline Kennedy": Obama reminds me of my father - except her father died when she was 5 years old, and every old politician he has known for 45 years who he did favors for came at his beck and call - and of course his large family - I'm surprised he didn't armtwist Schwarzenegger to endorse Obama.

Has it gone unnoticed by the press - expressing surprise since they thought Teddy was close to the Clintons - until they heard that Teddy was in an uproar that Hillary didn't mention Jack Kennedy, and then they heard about the rip roaring roaring at each other phone conversation between Bill Clinton and Kennedy.

Now who could you suppose would have called up the media and told them about it ?

Meanwhile, the media is reporting on Ted's praising of Obama and throwing thinly veiled zingers out at Hillary, and if we listen carefully we may even hear him use the old Irish phrase he wrote for John Edwards to "suspend" his campaign
"to blaze the path of history" a phrase straight from the blarney stone.

Here the media covers not the candidate Kennedy suddenly cherishes, but Kennedy himself having the time of his life campaigning:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22960576

but you dont hear one word about their wondering why Edwards so abruptly "suspended" his campaign. They know but its another insider DC secret.

Do I know what Kennedy used to get a fine and decent man like John Edwards to abruptly cancel his speeches, travel, and plans which were already in motion? No.
But it must have been terrible for John was pale as a ghost and stumbling over the words.

I do know as Saracat has said (that for Kennedy's pettiness and vindictiveness) we the people are being denied the best champion for THE PEOPLE and the restoring of America that we've had since his brother JFK died.

And as said above much more eloquently, what we are left with is more DLC collaborator centrists and right of centrists with their palms dirty with much more than 30 pieces of silver from corporations and their minions.

I agree, the Democratic Party is dead, long ago. There's no room for liberals or populists, only room for Corporations sucking the wealth and life out of this country. I wish John Edwards would give up any loyalty to this putrid carcass that used to be the valiant Democratic Party and run for the Presidency as the leader of a new Populist Party or as an Independent.

The main stream media is never going to let this country know about the dirty deed Kennedy has done. Instead they report on the wonderful time Ted Kennedy is having campaigning. What a betrayer of trust to John Edwards and to the people of this country.

I see no reason why this shouldn't be spread to every blog on the internet that at least half of this country might know how low and decadent a man we admired for decades has sunk.

[kelligesq]

79. K & R

:mad:

[never_get_over_it]

95. Thank you

in one way I thank you because his dropping out so abruptly BEFORE super Tuesday made NO sense to me - it has been driving me CRAZY - and what you have posted does make sense...

on the other hand I HAVE LOVED TED KENNEDY my ENTIRE LIFE - he has been a HERO to me FOREVER and now as I type with tears in my eyes I am heart broken and SO PISSED there are not words to describe it

And this perceived slight to JFK I'm sure was not intentional...which makes this all the more AWFUL and what makes it all the more awful is John Edwards is FAR closer to Ted Kennedy politics than anything Clinton or Obama will do - AND the sad thing is Obama WILL NEVER be elected President - they will swiftboat, voter suppress and electronic vote him to the dust bin of history.

Nice work Teddy -

Maybe John should work to form a progressive party because the Dems are DONE for me...

[kelligesq]

98. yes, a lifetime of admiation-that's what was awful -

-puke-

the place you'd least expect it from

[never_get_over_it]

122. And absolutely silly and spiteful

I am sure - and I am no Hillary fan - that the "slight" to JFK was unintentional - and truthfully whenever I hear historical conversations about civil rights I do hear A LOT about LBJ and not so much about JFK - it is a tragedy JFK didn't live to accomplish it - but the truth is he didn't and I'm sure Clinton meant nothing disparaging to JFK at all - Kennedy pushing out the most progressive candidate over this is truly SAD - I will be calling his office tomorrow - his pride will ultimately hurt the progressive side of this party - his side of this party very badly - I just wish John Edwards could have stood up to the old fart and pray to God he will not endorses either of them....

[kelligesq]

249. BUT - Two Americas has added another element to my recital of the facts I knew-

This may have been in the works before Teddy picked a fight over Hillary and Bill- he may have picked a fight to give him cover why he was supporting Obama -

it never occurred to me until Two Americas mentioned my previous posts about Tom Donahue and The Chamber of Commerce open threat in a press release
to the LA Times about populists, that the Chamber of Commerce and Tom Donahue would have connections to Ted Kennedy.

Of course he has connections to all of the congress. He smears them with milions of dollars every year.

He is currently involved RIGHT NOW in influencing 140 campaigns for Judges and Attorney Generals in many states.Dont you recall how booooooshco keeps pushing for limiting lawsuits and plaintiffs access to the courts?"clogging our courts with frivolous suits" --- Insurance companies which refuse to honor their policies for liver transplant and the 17 year old girl dies...etc etc

Good lord - I never made the connection, but when Two Americas did, I thought Karen Silkwood. google Karen Silkwood.


John Edwards is the antithesis and the nemesis of big business. He sues insurance companies and makes them pay. The chamber represents/has membership on its board of ATT, Lockheed, Bechtel, every major humongous corporation you can think of.

Last election cycle they spent 60 million dollars to ensure their candidates were chosen.

And yes, "they" dont just dislike John Edwards and everything he stands for , they hate him. Chamber, NAM, Roundtable are responsible for the outsourcing of
is it 2 or 3 million jobs,all the manufacturing companies, and the insourcing of IT white collar foreigners to take American jobs.

Everything John spoke against.

You can find the article on Chamber of Commerce by searching my name on DU I'm sure.

I suggest again you google Karen Silkwood who bucked a major corporation..I believe it was nuclear...another thing John was against...more nuclear plants,
but Obama isnt.

The Chamber of Commerce lobbyist is one of the contributors to Obama in the past.

With this realization I'd say John must have recived a threatening message or a close call, and or both so that the message was made clear to him and followed up with Teddy's typed up "suspended" speech - "blaze of history bull ...

The trick is to expose this without endangering John's life.

And where was the FBI during this?

And does he have no FBI protection now?

If I were John I would sit down and have a nice talk with Bill Clinton. Although Bill seems to have fallen into the fold hobnobbing with pappy and arch enemy Scaiffe.

[nenagh]

286. America Rising

Is brilliant messaging which creates  a  deep, sympathetic
resonance  within  many an Irish soul. It speaks to pride of
country,  America in this instance,  and the struggle for
freedom from  oppression of powerful forces.

The  Irish 'Rising' was the first step in the journey towards
independence  of  the Irish  in their own land.

Kennedy  would very much recognize the power and appeal of
John Edward's  'America Rising' speeches to engage the 'hearts
and minds' of many Americans despite nationaliy  vs the
'change, change,change' tired meme.  

Wasn't John Edwards MSM presence and appeal  also rising after
his strong performance in his last debate??   

I was cheering for him anyway....

[kelligesq]

299. Nice to know Nenagh - but no, the MSM was boycotting JRE even after he won debates

[lisainmilo]

324. Many were just getting to know him after that debate

Many were ready to vote for him...I wished he had stuck it out, but I agree with 2 Americas in his post reguarding the phone call. 2 Americas' nails it!

[the other one]

111. And there it is. But I have a question:

How did Kennedy get the former members of the Grateful Dead to back Obama?

Seriously, I think you nailed it with your analysis.

You and I are of like mind: I think Edwards should run as a third party, but clearly it is not something we can discuss at this website.

Its time for a populistunderground ?

[Wednesdays]

197. Link to your info?

What is your source, as to the supposed "shouting match" between Ted and Bill Clinton? The evidence backing your assertion that it was Ted who forced Edwards out?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[kelligesq]

242. Wednesday - the source was interviews on Tweety n Olbermann

by Altman and Fineman (separately of course) and David Gergen acting as a talking
head I think it was on CNN and it may have also been with reporter David Gregory the night of the Democratic debate with the three candidates - a debate where
Edwards shined if you remember, saying He was the adult here.

There may be transcripts on CNN and Msnbc - of the three shows...maybe even a video, but you'll have to google or search them out...I'm using a bad mouse and
a half baked keyboard at the present moment.

Look up the date of Teddy's announcement and rmors of his announcement the day before. Look up, probably on U tube Hillary's speech about the Civil Rights being passed by President Lyndon B Johnson - that's when it started.

[surfermaw]

266. David Gergen said on CNN the morning after Florida Rudy out Edwards

Rudy is leaving the campaign and He said I bet or I think that Edwards will be be presssured to get out or pushed out...can't remember the exact words, this was very early in the morning.

[Rose Rosetree]

291. The Democratic party isn't dead at all

Let's not be perfectionists here. I get your outrage, really! But please vote for the Democratic candidate, whichever it is.

You may be familiar with this spiritual principle: A country (any country) has leadership that reflects the predominant qualities of consciousness. We get the leaders we deserve. We get the version of the Democratic party that, overall, we deserve.

Think of practical things like the next Supreme Court appointments. Think and vote accordingly, please.

[kelligesq]

305. The ONLY name I will write in in November is JOHN EDWARDS, thank you

[davidwparker]

17. saracat, you're not deprived of you voice if you vote for JE. I'm a JE supporter,

who will most likely vote for Obama in the primaries on the Feb 12 primary. The decision will come after Super-duper when I can see how many delegates Obama gets. If he gives Hillary a "thumping," then I will vote for JE. If not, then I'll vote for Obama.

JE decided to drop out and gave "not standing in the way of history" himself. His message was muted by the MSM and the coverage of the "rock stars." He dropped out because he wasn't finding traction. It's unfortunate, but JE took himself out the race.

[saracat]

22. JE did not decide to drop out himself.I actaually could prove that but hey it is easier this way

for some.John did not even write that speech.

[davidwparker]

26. Who kicked him out? I was reading some replies to your OP and it's just

hear-say to me. You don't need to connect all the dots, just name the name and give the motive.

I take what happened at it's face value. I do think that JE voters would gravitate to Obama, thus giving Obama the nomination. JE would then be VP or in the cabinet.

[saracat]

31. Keep reading and question everything.Do some research.I did,

[Little Star]

49. Saracat, In 2004.....

I supported JRE with phone time and $$. I still supported him until NH. He made me mad, for being an attack dog and I did not like. I also did not like that Obama and him were tag teaming Hillary. That is the point where I became a Hillary supporter. I felt very strongly, that this race was turning sexist. As I've watched you and other Edwards supporters and how much you believe in him and his message it breaks my heart. I never hated him, in fact, he was still my #2 after NH. He seemed to stop being Obama's attack dog and I started to feel that same feeling for him that I had since 2004.

I don't know why I wanted to tell you all that. I guess that I just want to say I agree SOMETHING forced him out.

[cgrindley]

38. I cannot believe what I am reading in this ludicrous thread

Edwards couldn't increase his support past the low teens. He ran a stagnant campaign plagued by missteps.

He didn't win anything useful.

His donation therefore base ran dry.

He couldn't afford continue, was unwilling to spend his personal fortune.

Once he realized that he was beaten he dropped out of the race.


JESUS. IT COULD NOT BE MORE SIMPLE. A CONSPIRACY IS NOT REQUIRED.

[BeyondGeography]

42. Edwards died for our sins

get with the program.

[Forrest Greene]

128. Knickers

...in a twist?

[Divine Discontent]

168. step away from the keyboard

"His donation therefore base ran dry."


First, that makes no sense even though I know what you're trying so hard to say. He raised more money in the past 25 days before he suspended his campaign than he raised in the 4th QUARTER of 07. You are incorrect.

His campaign wasn't "stagnant", he was widely ignored by the corporate owned media (you DO realize the big corporations, like GE, own the media, right?) who are afraid of his extreme populist message of pro-union, pro-worker, full health care, and an end to war. If you paid attention you would have seen the video the Edwards campaign put out a couple weeks ago showing Edwards was receiving about 1/10th the attention they received despite his beating Hillary in Iowa and being right behind Obama, and his getting around 15% in popular vote. He would have kept getting delegates.

Now, as to whether or not he was really forced out, I don't believe that, however, your arguments are PATHETIC and make it sound like you are a liar or just ignorant on the facts.

I certainly hope he wasn't threatened seriously, like a pre-planned comment about watching out for his daughter, then her getting in an accident, or some other obvious direct contact with him telling him what he had to do - of course that occurring is unlikely - but we're talking CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and there's been some seriously SHITTY things done in our history for power. So, nothing goes past me without a, "that could be it!", thought.

Now go promote Obama or Hillary in a positive way.

[davidwparker]

228. I don't believe there is a conspiracy. Just playing, as they say, devil's

advocate.

The only conspiracy that I've got going are the 3 towers coming down at free-fall speed.

[Andrea]

238. you are not thinking logically

1) His donations did not run dry - they were increasing and donations in January set a record for his campaign before the month was over. this is easily verifiable.

2) It would have cost him nothing - zero - nada - no dollars - to simply wait until after Super Tuesday to suspend. Ads were already bought, people were in place.

[kelligesq]

80. The blind youth would stay with Obama, but not the older men and women, another reason

Kennedy had to push John Edwards out is that the adult caucasion men of the South and West would unlikely vote for Obama, they would vote for Edwards.

With Edwards gone, he's betting their dislike of Hillary would turn them to Obama.

I think he's making a bad bet, but again if he plans on fixing the machines, it wont matter.

[kelligesq]

100. who kicked him out? read #79

:cry:

[davidwparker]

241. Intriguing. I'm going to be catching up on some liberal podcast. I want to

hear if anybody picks this up. You have to be careful at what you accept by anonymous posters on blogs.

If this is true, it will come out eventually. For now, the reality is JE is out -- whatever the reason.

[kelligesq]

307. Both Obama & Clinton want JRE supporters - I will write in Edwards on Nov 2

[kelligesq]

78. Saracat,why make it easy for the betrayer of this country & the people.Your chance to expose them i

now, not nest year, not ten years from now, the time is now in the heat of the contest, when it matters, when people can get angry about what has been done to them, when the exposure may stop this whole charade.

If Ted Kennedy thinks this entire country is going to elect Obama, he's already into senility. The only way Obama will become President of the United States is
if they plan once again to fix the machines...and that is highly possible.

[iris5426]

18. K & R!!

[LWolf]

19. I hear you.

I'm a DK supporter, and I guess that means I'm used to it. :(

[busymom]

20. The MSM

has been picking our issues and candidates for as long as I can remember, and I, too find it disheartening...even depressing.

I still believe that the MSM took down Dean last time around intentionally ... I'm sorry that you are so angry...you are entitled to your feelings. They are completely justifiable.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. You got my shoulder, saracat.

[FlyingSquirrel]

27. It does remind me of sour grapes in one way...

They both leave a very bad taste in one's mouth.

x(

Unfortunately, I still find myself unable to change my avatar. Or get behind either of the remaining two. I think it's the shock factor... had this been in any way expected, (at least to happen so soon and before at least a majority got to vote), it might have been a different scenario for me. I can't even watch the debates now 'cause I just don't give a fuck.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Well here is my decision if Edwards isn't on my state's primary ballot.

I will vote for Hillary. And that is not a vote for her, but a vote against Obama. He broke his promise not to run in '08. And that "promise" I believe, was a lie to begin with. He was always planning to run. Which means he will say anything to get elected. No vote for him from me! And I think his running seriously hampered Edwards. Which really pisses me off!

[Forrest Greene]

141. Here's Mine:

I'm a blue state native too. If Edwards' name is still on my ballots Tuesday, I'll vote for him, I think, just to express my genuine choice. If not, or if I decide I want my vote "to count," I'll vote for Obama.

That's not a vote against Hillary, although to me she is an empty pantsuit filled with Corporatist lies, even though that thing she does with her eyes creeps me out, & even though she infantilizes the process by allowing her supporters to call her by her first name.

Obama, to me, is also an empty suit, this time filled with nothing. It leaves more room for us all to pour our hopes & fears into him, you see. He does have this to reccommend him: he seems to be quite good at inspiring people in what I would call nearly the right direction. Or at least not immediately toward show trials & gulags. If elected, he himself would accomplish nothing. If fact, he would probably be assassinated -- remember, this is America, & Obama is a partially-Black man. Worse, he's a more-or-less successful, more-or-less liberal politician. But still, he's a tempting vote.

Like JFK, Obama seems to possess the kind of charisma that could draw capable people with good ideas to his administration, as well as providing a figurehead's breath of good, fresh air. That appears to be the best that can be hoped for, at this point.

[kelligesq]

310. On Feb 5, JRE is on all 24 ballots, plus on Rhode Island & North Dakota - I

dont know of the others he's on, but as far as I know he has not withdrawn his name from any he has been registered on. In fact, someone in his office is making certain that his name remains on those ballots.

Which means only one thing,

If you supported JRE before, continue supporting and voting for him on your primary day. His name will be on the ballots whether electronic or paper.

[Divine Discontent]

177. Obama promised NOT TO RUN in 08?

that sounds like a lot of those republican congresscritters who promised not to run for reelection due to term limit promises. This definitely hampered Edwards, because, Edwards is the better candidate against Hillary. And (because we have to explain things to certain Obama supporters) yes, Obama is soundly beating Edwards in voting, but that is because the MSM wants to talk INCESSANTLY about him & Hillary, and how he'd be the first black president, which of course, stirs mass excitement from a chunk of the Democratic electorate (25-35%) who are gung-ho for Obama, but this does not ascertain a victory for him against Hillary. John was the better, more prepared candidate, and if we didn't want the entrenched interests in D.C., Obama should have kept his WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NastyRiffraff]

28. I'm honestly not sure of a conspiracy, or if there is one, it's nature..

But I watched, heartbroken, when John made his speech in New Orleans. And I knew something was wrong. No one thing screamed out at me, but his body language, and some stumbling over words when he never does that raised my alarm. It was more than unhappiness about bowing out. And the timing was odd...he had campaign events set for Tuesday, began a fundraising drive on Monday, bowed out Tuesday.

I have no idea what happened, and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone without more information, but I don't think this was voluntary.

BTW, K&R.

[bobbolink]

29. I think you're on the right track. They don't have to assassinate people any more...

they have more insideous ways, and we may never know.

After that letter by the head of the Chamber of Commerce, targetting Edwards, we KNEW something was up.

Didn't take 'em too long, eh?

:cry:

[NastyRiffraff]

44. Excellent point about the Chamber

I'd forgotten about that.

[Two Americas]

59. look...

Not ranting at you, NastyRiffraff, just using your post as a place to put the darned rant. :)

We aren't children. The president of the US Chamber of Commerce picks up the phone, calls Ted Kennedy and says "Want help on the immigration reform bill? You know we can bury it, if we so choose. We would be happy to cooperate. There is something we want you to do for us. Help get that Edwards character out of the race."

That is the way things work in the real world, and I think everyone here knows that this is the truth if they stop and think about things for a minute.

Now, of course, I don't know that this is the specific way that it happened. But to live in a fantasy world that denies how power politics works, and to call suspicions about back room deals "conspiracy theories" is just unsupportable. Of course the wealthy and powerful can pick up a phone and accomplish more in two minutes than all of us put together can in ten years. Of course back room deals are made. Of course people are threatened and coerced. Of course powerful people has leverage over other people and has no hesitation to use that leverage.

This is power politics, not snails and puppy dog tails. Even right here on DU we see all of the coercive bullying to get people in line, the fear-mongering, the pressure and attacks. We see people threaten each other here everyday. The only power people have here is to "alert" on others, but people are quick to reach for that weapon. If they had more weapons at their hands, they would use those. Yet we are to believe that the big players in the party leadership are all sweetness and light? That they are all saints? That there are not some very ruthless power plays going on?

Why is there this persistent goody two shoes notion - a touching faith in the niceness of American politics? Why would we be magically immune from the forces of history, what makes us special and exceptional? Why would things at the centers of power in this country be any different than the machinations and power plays that have happened in every other government in every other country throughout history?

[kelligesq]

82. Two Americas, When you mention the Chamber I think Karen Silkwood. What

you are pre-supposing is that Teddy carried a Karen Silkwood message to John - that he would end up like his brother........

but proof of that type of thing we would never get unless John came forward himself, which he would not. Knowing John is a lawyer, he probably has it typed up and in his safety deposit box if anything were ever to happen to himself or his family.

But something of that magnitude would surely shake John the way we have seen him.

[skepticscott]

92. If someone believes that

why would they vote for him in the first place? For all of the Edwards supporters who think that he was threatened or coerced to drop out of the race, I ask you: If he couldn't even stand up to the forces arrayed against him early in the primary election process (including those in his own party) without backing down, why would you vote for him with the hope or expectation that he would campaign effectively against the forces of the opposing party in the general election or fight effectively against even more powerful and entrenched forces as president? if he's the kind of guy who would back down from a fight at the first sign of trouble, then what was all the fuss about him in the first place?

Personally, I don't think he's that kind of guy. I like Edwards a lot and I was looking forward to voting for him (I may still), but I accept that not everyone thinks the way I do and that his message simply did not resonate with enough people.

Another question for the conspiracy-mongers: If he had been ahead in the race so far, and faced the same threats or coercion you claim have been made against him, would he have simply dropped out? If not, why did he do so now, when he's running third?

[Two Americas]

161. all politicians at all times

To think that there are no back room deals, no coercion, no threats, no power plays in politics is akin to thinking there is no physical contact in ice hockey. Back room deals, coercion, threats, and power plays are what politics is. They are practically the only thing that goes on.

There are hundreds and hundreds of insider historical accounts about the way politics works, and has worked in every campaign and every White House and every Congress. There is no excuse for people to have this fantasy world gentrified and sanitized view of politics. The opposition plays in the real world of politics, and they will tear us up if we keep avoiding reality and living in some imaginary world of hope and feelings. We look ridiculous and absurd, and we are.

I find the naiveté and denial on this thread - the complete embrace of the PR the politicians put out, the abject surrender to the emotional appeals of the staged media events - to be very alarming.

[skepticscott]

314. You blather on in generalities

about how politics often works, and then assume that it must have gone that way here, based on nothing but your own wishful thinking. And you completely ducked (not surprisingly) both of my direct, substantive questions. Why? And what have NO Edwards supporter on this board answered either of those questions?


Answer the questions, or admit you can't:

1. If Edwards couldn't even stand up to the forces arrayed against him early in the primary election process (including those in his own party) without backing down, why would you vote for him with the hope or expectation that he would campaign effectively against the forces of the opposing party in the general election or fight effectively against even more powerful and entrenched forces as president?

2. If Edwards had been clearly ahead in the race so far, and faced the same threats or coercion you claim have been made against him, would he have simply dropped out? If not, why did he do so now, when he's running third?

[Two Americas]

350. answers

If Edwards couldn't even stand up to the forces arrayed against him early in the primary election process (including those in his own party) without backing down, why would you vote for him with the hope or expectation that he would campaign effectively against the forces of the opposing party in the general election or fight effectively against even more powerful and entrenched forces as president?

The two are not related to each other. Public support can overcome insider pressure - in fact, history shows that is the only way for any progress to be achieved. The politician's job is not to be a strong man or dictator, it is to rally the real power in the country - the people. Lincoln was probably the greatest master of this art of any of the American presidents. As Lincoln often said, without public opinion, nothing can be done and the powerful insiders will rule, With public opinion, anything can be accomplished. Edwards had that sort of humility and respect for the people.

If Edwards had been clearly ahead in the race so far, and faced the same threats or coercion you claim have been made against him, would he have simply dropped out? If not, why did he do so now, when he's running third?

Had he been in the lead he would have had enough public support to resist the pressure. Ultimate power still rests with the people. I believe he would have gotten such public support, but he needed more time and too many forces were arrayed against him.

[skepticscott]

377. So what exactly

was the nature of this "pressure" that allegedly made Edwards withdraw? What was threatened to happen to him if he didn't?

And my question (still unanswered) stands: What was the big deal about Edwards if he would only take a stand and fight if he had lots and lots of public support? ANYONE can fight if they have the bigger army. The real fighters are the ones that will fight when all the odds are against them. If Edwards had become president, would he have backed down from fights over important issues if public support was against him, even when he knew deep down that fighting the issues against the majority was the right thing to do?

And BTW, your whole diatribe about Lincoln is baloney. He issued the Emancipation Proclamation AGAINST widespread opposition to making the Civil War about ending slavery, rather than about restoring the Union. Real leadership is about doing what's right, not what's popular or expedient, and convincing others that it's right.

[Straight Shooter]

123. Two Americas, by definition, a backroom deal is, in fact, a conspiracy.

Conspire, "to breathe together." If two or more people join forces to commit an illegal or unethical act against a third party, that's a conspiracy. To call it a "backroom deal" lends an aura of intrigue that dismisses the malevolent nature of the act.

I'm no neophyte. I understand how politics works, just like I "understand" how people go crazy in times of war and rape women and slaughter children and burn down villages. I understand "it's always been done this way." I don't have television, but the reports of Edwards' behavior during his speech have given me a very hinky feeling.

"Who Killed The Electric Candidate"

[Two Americas]

354. indeed

I agree with what you are saying here.

I finally did see the tape of Edwards announcement today. It is very strange. He was clearly looked for all the world as though he were reading lines that had been scripted for him. It was even more obvious than I expected it to be based on the comments people made about it here.

[Forrest Greene]

142. Well Said n/t

[bobbolink]

159. Waaay too much ugly crud to remember and keep track of!

:(

It was a fine country, while it lasted, eh?

[2rth2pwr]

34. When are the mods going to put these conspiracy theories about Edwards

where they belong? Right next to the "truthers".

[FlyingSquirrel]

35. There may not be a conspiracy behind his sudden exit..

but there was definitely one behind the lack of media coverage. He got SECOND PLACE in Iowa and yet only got 7% of the news coverage immediately afterwards. Tell me there was no conspiracy behind that, with the media controlled by a powerful few - thanks to laws passed in the past 15 years. How else could that have happened? Perhaps not a conspiracy against Edwards specifically, but a conspiracy to control the media and the message, to be used against (or for) whomever they want.

[Two Americas]

60. oh, no, it is all in your imagination

No, there are no power plays in politics. No coercion. No threats. Nope. No attempts to silence any voices or marginalize them. It is all sweetness and light. Anyone saying otherwise is paranoid.

[2rth2pwr]

63. Are you saying that Edwards is that weak?

How could he possibly stand up to the corporations if he folds this easily?

[Two Americas]

64. that is right

How could he?

[2rth2pwr]

70. Here is how it went down, He lost South Carolina which is the state

he won in 2004 by what was it 14 or 17 pts? He got killed there, and looked ahead and had to make a choice- big embarrassment on Super Tuesday or get out of the way and let the remaining candidates duke it out fair and square. Nobody wins by stretching this all the way out to the convention.

And as I have been saying through this whole election, Edwards word is just not credible.

"I'm taking this all the way to the convention! Because it's personal to me! This is my lifes calling, you have my commitment that no matter what I'm taking it through to the convention! Do you have some money to send to me and my campaign? I'm going to give a voice to the voiceless!" (paraphrasing)

Yeah, right.

[foxer]

105. He wasn't going to do it alone, We were behind him

[alteredstate]

106. I don't think John Edwards would allow himself to be "forced out".

He's a fighter.

[mrbluto]

378. I see...

...since you can't persuade us, or find fault in the idea you'd like some authority to squelch an idea you don't like.

What are you doing in this forum?

What motivates you to be here?

[texanwitch]

39. I agree with you, I am mad.

Our primary isn't until March 4th, and I never got to chance to have my vote for Edwards counted.

Why is there not one Super Tuesday for the whole nation so everyone has a chance to vote.

I know some Repulicans who are sick of Bush and would have voted for Edwards, there has to be more of them nation wide.

I just hope we can still win in November without the Republican crossovers.

[Yael]

41. I'm with you, Saracat

I am an Edwards Democrat

[Plucketeer]

45. Feb. 5th

AND in November. If he's NOT in the second seat in November, I'll write him in for first. I can't do otherwise.

[ccinamon]

107. I'll be joining you!!!

Every election the Dems move closer and closer to the right....the Repubs are like a bully on a playground. The ONLY way to stop a bully is to stand up and punch him back. The Dems have had MANY chances to punch back, they haven't. John was willing to fight, I'm voting/writing him in in March and in November -- to hell with all talk and no action Hillary and Obama.

If the Democrats EVER expect to get any more money from me, they have to EARN it. Appeasement NEVER works...look at all the spoiled children/young adults/and even older adults in the news and in the stores.

I really believed, until TPTB forced John to "suspend" his campaign, that the Dems were better than the Repubs...now I'm not so sure.... I've read alot of the posts and I believe petty politics and hurt feelings were involved in getting John to "suspend" his campaign...I don't think I want to belong to an organization that does that to it's memebers.

Democrats consistently encourage spoiled brat behavior in Republicans, and I don't see Obama or Hillary changing that behavior. Who needs more of that?

Now I truly understand the appeal of 3rd party candidates.

[midnight]

47. It seems they have taken our right to vote in the primaries away.

But I will go ahead and vote for Edwards anyways. It's my way of having my voice heard.

[sniffa]

50. You've been angry a lot longer than that though

This isn't new.

[Divine Discontent]

181. why doesn't that Mercer banner

spell out Democratic? It's the Democratic Presidential Primary. Who made that? It plays into the GOP line of the "Democrat Party" and is kinda offensive. When using the term of party in a professional manner, it should say, "Democratic". Just my .02.

[cali]

56. Sure it's sour grapes

with a whiff or conspiracy. I don't recall being this whiny when Dean dropped out.

[Two Americas]

62. "sour grapes"

First let me say that you are off base about Dean supporters. Hell, there are many Dean supporters who are still angry about what happened to his candidacy, and justifiably so.

"Sour grapes?" Hardly. That would mean that people were saying that they really didn't want something - when they still did - because they can't have it. Everyone here is saying the exact opposite of that.

I suppose the term "sour grapes" was just a handy term to use in an attempt to mock and ridicule your fellow Democrats because you are uncomfortable with what they are saying. or happen to disagree with them.

Sticking pejorative labels on the opinions of other people is a dishonest and mean-spirited debate technique. It does nothing to advance the discussion, and unnecessarily causes friction and hostility for no good purpose.

“Whine” and “sour grapes” and “conspiracy” really have no place in an intelligent adult discussion. They belong on the middle school playground.

[havocmom]

319. Yep

Yep

Yep

Yep

And Bravo.

[Two Americas]

357. thanks havocmom n/t

...

[Helga Scow Stern]

57. Thanks for giving voice to what so many of us feel. n/t

[Melissa G]

58. K&R! n/t

[Psyop Samurai]

66. No, the future of the nation is not something to play games with...

...but that is exactly what our entire political class has been doing. Horrifyingly, it's all just a game to them. That is what my "political education" at DU has taught me.

I appreciate your message, and have no small admiration for those who manage to soldier on, but I have wondered increasingly if we're not beating our heads against that which is cast in stone, and if "using the system to change the system" is not an exercise in futility (if not self-delusion). It seems that energy might be better employed in a coordinated demand for legitimacy, without holding such an emotional stake in outcomes subject to the machinations of power.

That said, I support your principled decision. :thumbsup:

[kelligesq]

83. Good thinking Psyop Samurai

[MoonRiver]

67. I hear you.

I'm so sick of the MSM along with party insiders choosing our candidates. When the fuck will WE THE PEOPLE have a say in any of this???

[newmajority]

68. I support Edwards supporters' right to vote for their candidate, if he's still on the ballot ....

Assuming the votes count. I've heard that some states will not count votes for a candidate if he or she has dropped out of the race, and if Edwards votes are not counted, then he could not possibly get any delegates. If anyone else in any of the Super Tuesday states can confirm or deny if that is the case. It's wrong of them not to count votes, whether it's John Edwards, Lee Mercer (whoever he is) or even (God forbid) Hillary Clinton, but the electoral system in this country is so fucked up in any number of ways that nothing would surprise me anymore.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think John Edwards wants the candidate who represents the Status Quo of the last 28 years to win this nomination. And we all know who that is. If your vote goes to John on principle and gives him a voice at the convention, use it. But if it's just being thrown away, you could make it at least count for something. Ending dynasty politics and beginning the END of the "Two Americas".

[kelligesq]

73. Nice try-no deal. They count the votes even of those who dropped out way b4 if name on ballot. A

vote for John Edwards is not thrown away by any means.

And it is my hope that in his negotiation with your Obama and Hillary, if they
dont take on his platform for the people, that he will come off suspend and
go LIVE and in living color again.

We'll all be there for him, Thank you

[Tatiana]

69. The only thing that makes me suspicious is the timing of the announcement

that he was suspending his campaign.

We lost a lot of volunteers who had signed up to go door to door and do phone banking. And this happened right after most of us had just donated to the campaign. I have been dealing with a lot of frustration on the part of volunteers and supporters who just did not see this coming.

Some folks have moved on to the Hillary camp. But, if he's still on the ballot in your state and close to 15% in polling, I'd encourage people in those primaries or caucuses to still vote for Edwards.

[never_get_over_it]

99. The TIMING is the key

6 days before super Tuesday - nothing really significant had changed that day - fundraising was pretty good - events were planned - statement going all the way to the convention - getting out before super Tuesday MAKES NO SENSE - hardball politics by Teddy Kennedy makes sense.

And to think Teddy worked this is not really a grand conspiracy theory - it is hardball politics - and folks if you don't think shit like this goes on every day - you are fooling yourself

[foxer]

233. And before the last debate

This was not a case of looking at poll numbers and deciding to cordially end the campaign. This is a case of campaigning HARD, gaining in the polls and in finances, and doing a sudden and complete 180. Changing course this abruptly would take a lot of force applied to something you care deeply about. I cannot understand why the supporters of other candidates are not as upset about this as I am. It's rotten to the core.

[Norwood]

74. Hear Hear!

K & R

[BigBearJohn]

81. Money rules. Edwards threatened the money changers and then got an offer he could not refuse.

[kelligesq]

84. Occums Razor - It's so far out of our belief system, that we can't accept such a thought, but

tht's exactly it, it is the simplest answer, taking in the abruptness of his
departure, and his mannerism and appearance at that farewell speech.

[cgrindley]

89. That's "Occam's Razor" and this is what it has to say about Edwards quitting

Occam's Razor or the Law of Parsimony states that you shouldn't needlessly create entities... in this case, that means that..

EDWARDS DROPPED OUT AFTER HE WAS BEATEN

it actually argues eloquently that there was NO CONSPIRACY, NO COLLUSION, as your explanation requires a large and complex chain of events and confluence of organizations, individuals and corporations--not to mention a process by which voting patterns were manipulated... that's CRAZY and Occam's Razor necessarily tells us that it is NOT the correct explanation of what happened.

Matter of fact, to argue for a conspiracy or collusion is to argue irrationally, illogically or without any conceivably measurable reason.

[mrbluto]

312. What does Occam's razor say about a six million $ media buy?

What rational person drops out before they can see if their six million dollar media buy has an effect?

What rational person drops out when their fund raising is on the upswing?

What rational person drops out just before the last debate where they could have made a point before they left?

Don't bother answering - I actually think your reverse psychology strategy is interesting.

[skepticscott]

93. See my post #96 above

[sazemisery]

85. I voted Edwards in person absentee on Friday. K&R

[Silver Gaia]

86. Thanks for this thread, sara.

Thanks for giving us a place to talk about this. I am still in shock. I'm on an emotional roller-coaster. Not since November 2004 have I felt so devastated because of a political event.

I offer my deepest thanks to those of you who have shown support for we Edwards supporters, to those who have reached out to us in understanding.

To those who have come here only to mock, harass, and belittle us: Would it be too much for you to show some compassion? Does everything have to be as starkly ugly as the past seven years have been? Must we hear from you the same language we might expect to hear from the Republicans? Why do you choose to kick us when we're down, to add to our pain and cause bitterness between us? Please understand that in doing so, you do not endear me to your candidate. Instead, many of us will turn away instead. What sort of true call for unity does not encompass compassion for others? I, for one, want no part of that sort of unity. May you reap what you sow. I mean that sincerely.

kelligesq, I especially would like to thank you for the information you posted here. I had not read this until this moment. I knew of the big blow-up with Kennedy, but I had not heard of the connection to Edwards campaign suspension until now. It makes sense to me, sad to say. Thank you. As awful as it is, it helps to know this, helps me to put it in perspective.

Those of us who were following Edwards' campaign carefully KNEW immediately as we watched his announcement that something was NOT as it seemed to the casual glance. All the reasons for why we thought this to be true have been stated over and over and over again. We were, and are, not wrong. We have been given no plausible 'official" explanation for this VERY sudden decision. It was not due to a lack of money, or illness, or a lack of movement in the polls. With Super Tuesday just days away, this did NOT, and does NOT make sense. Except in that it was forced. It was not done willingly. That much is plain as day to me, and always was, even without knowing about what's been described here. This is not "sour grapes." This is also not something that many of us are able to shrug off. We can't, and won't, just bounce over to another candidate. It's not that simple.

What some don't seem able to understand is that, for many of us who supported Edwards, this was not "politics as usual." It was not a contest or a game. We saw his candidacy as the last, best hope to rescue the dream that was America. As saracat has pointed out, this is the "culmination of a long period of disillusionment" for me, too. It runs deep, and I cannot lightly toss aside my loss--OUR loss.

Maybe some of you feel that way about your candidate, too--that he or she will be the right one to rescue and restore our once-great nation. I'm sorry, but I can't join you in that. I don't see it. Please realize as well that you still HAVE your voice. Mine was ripped away from me. Again. I truly hope I am wrong, and you are right, because otherwise, we are in for some very bad times.

So, saracat, and all you Edwards supporters (Edwardians) who have posted here, know that there are two more--myself and my husband-- who stand proudly beside you with, and as a part of, the "poor and disenfranchised who get no benefit from these backroom deals."

I AM an Edwards Democrat. I will support John Edwards, and the progressive platform he built for the benefit of us ALL, with my vote on February 5th.

[Two Americas]

278. beautiful post

Thank you Joolz.

Beautifully said. Thank you.

:hug:

[kelligesq]

320. Huzzah Joolz. Touching from your heart. Yes I too will vote JRE & on Nov 2 write him in - I admit

to investigative propensities but without the political acumen provided by
Two Americas, who supplied the missing piece and connection to Donahue and The
Chamber of Commerce, or a similar villain, but Donahue who foolishly put his
threat out in a press release in the LA Times seems the most likely power who could make even Kennedy jump. I was stopping at Kennedy, and it was hard to believe he would make a physical threat to John, a political threat is believable, but John's countenance belied more than a political threat. Donahue is based in Los Angeles as far as I know.

Does anybody from his campaign know if John stopped in Los Angeles the day before his announcement. What city, state was he in the day before?

And I still want to know where the Secret Service who was supposed to be guarding him was?

We need to get hold of Joe Trippi or Bonior - anyone who was with John that day and evening before his announcement. One of the campaign workers has told me that all the numbers to the cell phones and so on no longer work. Yet John's site is still very operational.

In any case, Edwardians should know their work is not over. They need to be contacting all their fellow campaign workers and fellow voters and tell them vote John Edwards in this primary of Feb 5. His name is on all 24 States ballots and still on others Rhode Island, North Dakota.

That doesn't sound like a campaign that is going to give up the ghost so easily.

Suspended not ended. But until we hear otherwise, we have work to do to keep JRE's principals alive and kicking. As for those who have blocked JRE, he's playing possum is my sense, being a good boy, but he has no control over his supporters. We are free agents to continue his campaign without him. :applause:

Hear from JRE again we will, but I dont expect that to be until mid February or
early March. Meanwhile, it's not over til it's over..and this is not over, by a longshot.

How can 300 million people be made to heel by a mere 500 to 1000 people plus a couple of thousand CEO's ?

[From The Left]

94. Get Over It

For whatever reason, Edwards "angry, populist" message didn't catch on.

You can blame it on the MSM, CNN, the DNC, or Bill O'Reilly, but the voters took a look at Edwards and said he wasn't the best candidate to take on John McCave.

Time to get behind Obama and pushback against the rightwing machine.

[Kermitt Gribble]

101. So,

you must support the corporations, then, if you don't support the so-called "angry populist" message, right?.

Here's a hint: Stop trying to push Edwards supporters towards Obama.

[never_get_over_it]

102. Thanks for your snarky post

I was raised in NY and have lots of friends and relatives there - and will be calling EVERYONE of them today and telling them to vote for Clinton on Tuesday

Why because I believe there is not a nickels worth of difference between your guy and her - and the Obama supporters on this sight are SO MUCH NASTIER AND SNARKIER and SEXIST that I've decide to back Hillary

and has my DU name states I'll Never Get Over It

Oh and by the way John McCave will CRUSH Barack Hussein Osama in November....you just wait for the fun swiftboat attacks to begin...

[newmajority]

170. John McCave is a tired old man who needs to retire from politics period

About the only good thing I can say about him anymore is that he opposes torture. And even that is only because he's been there, and nothing to do with his political ideology. Anyone with functioning eyes can see the man's health has gone downhill, and so has his judgement. Case in point.....



Put this fossil up against a 46 year old man who is energizing the entire country. I dare you. :)

[never_get_over_it]

172. Couldn't agree with you more

but that doesn't mean he won't win or should I say won't be inaugurated

think back if you will to 2000 and 2004 - what has changed that will stop swiftboating, voter suppression and electronic voting - VERY LITTLE

and believe me I hope I'm WRONG WRONG WRONG but I'm VERY worried that I won't be....

[Forrest Greene]

144. That Good Ol' "Get Over It" Waste Material

God help me -- & I don't even believe in god -- if I ever say "Get over it," that gratuitous, dismissive, sneering, passive-aggressive, kick-'em-when-they're-down, Twentieth Century Americanism, to anybody under any circumstances.

[amandabeech]

163. Actually, Edwards had been doing well against the Republicans.

Speaking of Republicans, I suggest that you ask them to get behind Obama.

We're Dems here, we don't fall into line on command.

Authoritarian commands don't work well here.

[Yael]

260. You do know the difference between a primary and the general, right?

[knight_of_the_star]

280. Shut up

I've said it before and will say it again.

If you have no respect for alternative viewpoints, why are you a Democrat?

[kelligesq]

323. From the left with 11 posts: KINDLY STOP PUSHING OBAMA HERE. THERE IS NO INTEREST IN HIM. &

young, brash, egotistical, to the right of Hillary even, anti-abortion, and
a pig at the trough of the corporations.

I'm sure he would be charming and interesting to talk to for 1/2 hour -

Beside that I doubt he's going to make it through this entire campaign - I suspect Fitzgerald will have him before a Grand Jury before very long.

[caseycoon]

96. K&R saracat! We lost too much too soon! n/t

[lisainmilo]

97. Nicely put Sara!

I agree with you too. We have to vote our conscience, it is that simple. :)

[skepticscott]

147. Voting your conscience is overrated

If all those people hadn't voted "their conscience" for Nader back in 2000, we'd have had 8 years of Al Gore instead of 8 years of Shrubbie. How are their consciences coping with that stark reality? Sit there for a couple minutes and really think about how different a country and a world this would be right now if all the Nader voters had cast for Gore instead. The ultimate welfare of the country and the world is about more than being warm and fuzzy about who you personally pull the lever for. Your primary responsibility as a voter and as a citizen is not to make yourself feel good, but to make the country as good a place as possible for as many people as possible.

[lisainmilo]

157. We don't have Al Gore for president for one reason and one reason only...

And it has NOTHING to do with Nadar. It does have to do with a fixed election. Now as more has been revealed to us since the election 8 years past, it is clear it was fixed. Gore won the election, that has been proved
and I voted for him 8 years ago. Thoughts you may want to ponder, how does an election get fixed in a supposed democratic and free society? As for me, I will not be fooled by the corporacrates, I will continue to vote my conscience, whether it matters really or not!

[skepticscott]

293. Hogwash

Over 90,000 people in Florida voted for Nader (not NADAR, btw), and the official count had Gore behind by just over 500. If everyone who voted for Nader in Florida had voted for Gore, all of the hanging chads, supressed and purged voters and idiotically designed butterfly ballots would STILL not have given the election to Bush, and the Supreme Court would never have been involved. No, Nader is not the ONLY reason Gore lost, but his candidacy and the votes he grabbed were a sufficient reason in and of themselves, and it's a reason that all of the "conscience" voters had full and complete control over. It's time they started taking responsibility and it's time they took that lesson to heart.

[lisainmilo]

316. Nader did take votes from Gore...like a grain of sand thrown in a desert!

We agree on that, I see your point. Perhaps the Supreme Court would not have been involved, I see your point on that.

Gore did win the election. He is not president because the election was fixed! I guess this is where we disagree. You see it took much more than Nader to really affect the election. You mentioned voter suppression. Perhaps if the 200,000 mostly African Americans were not denied a vote, Gore would be president. Of course, that was just one of the tools used by the current administration to force themselves in our Whitehouse!


<snip>

In all, some 200,000 Floridians were either not permitted to vote on Election Day or had their ballots discarded and not counted. A large and disproportionate number were black, according to The Nation, which has been recognized for its ongoing reporting on the Florida election debacle.

"The Nation's investigation into the way Florida, under Governor Jeb Bush, systematically purged the state's voter rolls and denied tens of thousands of African Americans their right to vote is a frightening wake-up call for our democracy," according to Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel. "The revelations in our story cannot undo the corruption in Florida's election last November, but they can and should spur reforms that will ensure that 2000 is the last time that African Americans will be unfairly targeted and denied their rights in the voting booth in Florida or anywhere in America."

<snip>

Common Dreams : The Nation: http://www.commondreams.org/news2001/0412-02.htm


Perhaps the extra 200,000 votes means nothing to you....you still think voting your conscience is wrong? Do you not ponder the stolen election? I do. I refuse to forget what happened!

Bush-Cheney Campaign and the Florida GOP
Absentee ballot law (FL GOP)
The Florida Republican Party sent a letter with Jeb's signature and the Florida state seal urging Florida Republicans to vote by absentee ballots. But Florida law (which was made even stricter in 1998) is not a "vote-by-mail" system - voters must have a valid reason for voting by mail. The Republican Party was thus encouraging Republican voters to break the law.

Florida's absentee ballot laws were tightened because of the 1997 Miami absentee ballot scandal that resulted in the voiding of ALL absentees and the overturn of the election. The man who engineered that massive fraud - Mayoral candidate Xavier Suarez - played a key role in the GOP absentee effort in 2000.

Absentee Ballot Law, Voting Rights Act (FL GOP, Seminole County, Martin County)
With the active assistance of GOP Election Supervisors, FL GOP officials sent GOP operatives to illegally alter over 2,500 defective Republican absentee ballot applications, while at least 550 Democratic applications were ignored.

Conspiracy to Interfere with the Lawful Count of the Votes (Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris)
When the TV networks called Florida for Gore, Bush campaign spokespeople (Rove, Matalin, etc.) went on TV to declare the results were wrong and would soon be changed. Was there already a plan to use state and local government powers to interfere with the lawful counting of votes?

FL Absentee Ballot Law
Pressured canvassing boards in Republican counties to violate Florida's election laws and count clearly illegal overseas Republican absentee ballots, while fighting to prevent Democratic counties from counting similar absentee ballots

14th Amendment, Voting Rights Act
Forced hand counting of heavily Republican absentee ballots that the machines couldn't read - while delaying and blocking hand counting of poll-cast ballots in heavily Democratic counties that the machines couldn't read, thus treating ballots differently and discriminating against black voters

GOP Stalling Tactics in Palm Beach
Legal ethics
Urged courts to block hand counts in Democratic counties in FL while urging courts to conduct hand counts in NM

Interference with Administration of Elections; Assault (Rep. John Sweeney, Congressional staff, etc)
On 11/21, organized a riot in Miami/Dade County that intimidated the canvassing board into stopping its hand count, and then assaulted Joe Geller, chair of the Dade County Democratic executive committee. This riot was paid for by the Bush recount committee.

Abuse of Congressional office for partisan politics; politicization of active-duty military (Rep. Steve Buyer, Rep. Tillie Fowler, Michael Higgins, Rob Carter)
On 11/22, Rep. Buyer gave the Pentagon a list of active duty sailors whose ballots had been rejected as invalid, which was provided by Florida Republican operative Rob Carter. Buyer demanded their e-mail addresses immediately. Buyer's aide Michael Higgins then contacted the sailors and put them in touch with Carter, who enlisted these sailors in a propaganda campaign to attack Vice President Al Gore as anti-military, and to pressure county officials to count invalid ballots. Carter also supplied Rep. Tillie Fowler with stories from service members, which she used to denounce Gore at a rally.

FEC Disclosure
Failure to disclose how the $8 million the Bush campaign raised for its Florida recount effort

IRS Disclosure
Failure to disclose the occupation and employer of thousands of recount donors

Governor Jeb Bush
Absentee Ballot Law
Letter sent by Florida Republican Party with Jeb's signature and the Florida state seal urged Florida Republicans to vote by absentee ballot, regardless of whether they had a valid legal reason for doing so.

Abuse of State Seal
Letter sent by Florida Republican party with Jeb's signature and the Florida state seal urging Florida Republicans to vote by absentee ballots

Abuse of Office for Partisan Purposes; Interference with Administration of Elections
Jeb and his staff made 95 phone calls made to Bush/Cheney Presidential campaign after Jeb said he'd recused himself; he visited the Bush/GOP headquarters in Tallahassee; he participated in at least 1 Bush strategy conference call; 6 of the 95 calls were on the day GOP thugs stopped the Miami-Dade recount

Abuse of Office for Partisan Purposes
Called special session of legislature to intimidate county officials and judges

14th Amendment (Florida Legislature)
2001 Election Reform law perpetuates the election problems that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled to be in violation of the 14th Amendment.

Secretary of State Katherine Harris
Voting Rights Act Section 5 (Bucky Mitchell, Michael Cochran, Elaine Baxter)
Misrepresentation of the felons list statute, failure to provide available documents directly relevant to the pre-clearance review

Voting Rights Act Section 5 (Clay Roberts, Bucky Mitchell)
Knowing failure to obtain pre-clearance for significant changes in policies and procedures pursuant to the implementation of the felons list law which resulted in the removal of legal voters from the registration rolls in at least one of 5 pre-clearance counties in Florida

Disenfranchisement of Legal Voters
Knowingly purged felons from states where voting rights were automatically restored upon release, contrary to clear court rulings. Knowingly included non-felons in its purge through its "wide net" policy (accepting a 90% name-match in 1999, and an 80% match in 2000).

Ballot Design Law
Sent out a sample ballot design to county elections supervisors that split the 10 Presidential candidates on the ballots onto 2 pages

Uniform Administration of Election Law: Assistance to Voters
Failure to oversee training of poll workers to ensure proper assistance to voters

Americans with Disabilities Act (Jeb Bush, Counties)
Failure to make voting machines fully accessible to the handicapped

Mandatory Machine Recount Law
20 counties never did the mandatory machine recount as required by state election law.

Overseas Absentee Ballot Law
Allowed illegal overseas absentee ballots to be counted and included in the certified total

Uniform Administration of Election Law
Coordination (conspiracy) between Harris lawyers and Bush/GOP lawyers; Deliberate misinterpretation of the law for partisan purposes

Uniform Administration of Elections: Hand Recount Law
Inconsistent application of hand count law: accepted manual recounts from some counties, but denied Palm Beach permission to conduct hand count

Use of Government Office for Politics
Allowed Republican operatives Andrew Goodman and J.M. Stipanovich to use her state computers and offices during the recount; Communications Director Donald Tighe admitted writing partisan speeches during the campaign.

These political activities were found on Harris' computer. 1) On 1/29/00, a speech written for a Republican meeting that declared: "We are READY TO LEAD!" 2) On 3/14/00, a set of campaign talking points for George W. Bush. 3) On 11/14/00, an examination of the campaign finances of FL Supreme Court Justice Barbara Pariente - who was reviewing important election cases. 4) A list of contributors to Harris' 1998 Democratic opponent, Karen Gievers (undated).

Harris claims Stipanovich and Goodman were "volunteers," but Goodman billed Harris $12,000 for his work, and Harris initially approved the bill (Palm Beach Post, 8/23/01)

Abuse of Discretion in Violation of Florida Supreme Court Order
The Florida Supreme Court ordered Harris to accept the Palm Beach recount until 9 a.m. on 11/27; she refused to accept them after 5 p.m. on 11/26

Conflict of Interest; Use of Office for Political Gain
While overseeing the recount, Harris expressed interest in appointment as Ambassador under Bush

Public Records
Reinstalled Windows and erased files on state computers used by Republican operatives Andrew Goodman and J.M Stipanovich

County Election Officials
Voter Registration Law and Voting Rights Act
Failure to process thousands of voter registration forms before the election, including many from historically black colleges

Absentee Ballot Law (Okaloosa)
Sent hundreds or thousands of absentee ballots to voters who did NOT request one

Absentee Ballot Law (Bay)
Republicans turned in "handfuls" and in one case a suitcase-full of absentee ballots in defiance of a law that provides people may submit no more than two absentee ballots other than their own or that of a family member

Ballot design law (Palm Beach)
Butterfly ballot

Sample ballot law (Duval)
Sample ballot differed significantly from actual ballot - sample ballot listed 10 candidates on 1 page, while actual ballot spread candidates over 2 pages

Voting Rights Act
Substandard voting machinery in predominantly minority precincts that produced ballot spoilage up to 40%; Failure to provide voter assistance in Spanish (Osceola County) and Creole (Miami-Dade); reports of intimidation of minority voters

Voting machine law (Punch Card)
Failure to properly maintain machines, including misalignment and accumulation of chads

Election Day law
Closed polling places without notice; Turned away voters who were on line at 7 pm when polls closed

Voting machine law (Miami-Dade)
Use of malfunctioning voting machines

Voting Machine Law (Optiscan)
Failure to provide machine-readable pens

Voting Machine Law (Palm Beach)
Misaligned ballots, as described by Rabbi Yellin; Use of malfunctioning voting machines in county elections office

Miami Herald 8/28/01: Democratic State Representative Calls for Criminal Investigation of Teresa Lepore
Negligence (Palm Beach)
Failure to respond to complaints about confusing ballot and voting mistakes

Intent of the voter
Nearly all counties failed to count machine-unreadable votes where the intent of the voter was clear. This includes "write-in overvotes" that must specifically be counted by law.

Palm Beach Canvassing Board rejects dimpled ballots
Mandatory machine recount law
20 counties never did the mandatory machine recount as required by state election law.

Racial Discrimination (Escambia)
Disabled optiscan technology that prevents errors on poll-cast votes, but "duplicated" (fixed) absentee votes with errors.

Different Treatment of Machine-Unreadable Ballots
Various Republican counties hand-counted absentee ballots that could not be machine-read (thus favoring Republicans), but refused to hand-count poll-cast ballots that could not be machine-read (thus harming Democrats)

Ballot tampering fraud (Escambia and other Northern counties)
Estimated 7,100 ballots were destroyed in 11 counties

Ballot tampering; Open meetings law (Optiscan)
Secret duplication of 10,000 optiscan-unreadable absentee ballots in 26 heavily Republican counties in central and north Florida. These ballots favored George W. Bush by more than 2 to 1.

Fraud (Duval)
Republican elections supervisor John Stafford lied about the number of under and overvotes to the Gore campaign during the 72-hour window for requesting a recount, telling the Gore campaign there were only 2-300 votes disqualified, when there were actually 27,000.

Recount law (Miami-Dade)
Refusal to conduct hand count

Absentee Ballot Law (Orange)
Refused to count stateside absentees postmarked before Election Day, while counting overseas absentees with no postmark or date

Public Records Law (Palm Beach)
Destruction of computer records of 2000 Presidential vote

U.S. Supreme Court
Conflict of Interest
Four members of the Supreme Court majority in Bush v. Gore had conflicts and should have recused themselves: O'Connor, Thomas, Scalia, and Rehnquist. In August 2001, three Justices recused themselves from the case of Napoleon Beazley, who was sentenced to death for the murder of the father of J. Michael Luttig, a well-connected federal appeals court judge.

US Law on Emergency Injunctive Relief
Granted emergency relief to George W. Bush to stop the manual 4. Count of 60,000 uncounted votes as ordered by the Florida Supreme Court, on the theory that counting all of the votes would cause "irreparable harm" to Bush.

14th Amendment
In Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court declared the the 14th Amendment prohibited variations in vote counting by county officials, contrary to all precedents - and explicitly refused to set a precedent for future cases. In the same ruling, the Court accepted 2,490 overseas absentee ballots that were counted without any consistent standard and produced a net gain of 630 votes for Bush - greater than his 537-vote margin of victory.

Presidential Elections; Appointment of Electors (3 USC Chapter 1 Section 5)
On December 12, 2000, the Supreme Court intentionally misrepresented the law as saying that Electors had to be chosen by December 12, when the true deadline was December 18.

Media
Corporate Contribution to Federal Campaign (FOX)
George W. Bush spoke by phone with his cousin John Ellis at FOX News shortly before FOX incorrectly projected Bush as the winner at 2 a.m. on Election Night, which prompted Al Gore to temporarily concede and defined him as the presumptive loser.

Corporate Contributions to Federal Campaign; Broadcast License Requirement to Serve the Public Interest (FOX, NBC, ABC, CBS)
The broadcast networks consistenly ignored Bush's flaws and inconsistencies, while scrutinizing Gore's flaws and inconsistencies

Corporate Contribution to Federal Campaign; Violation of Broadcast License (NBC/Jack Welch)
On Election Night, GE CEO Jack Welch reportedly ordered the network to call Florida for Bush, even though the results were too close to call.

Rep. Henry Waxman's Repeated Requests for Videotapes Promised by NBC News President Andrew Lack


Attorney General John Ashcroft
Failure to Investigate
DoJ has received THOUSANDS of complaints, but is investigating only 12. Complaints include serious allegations of fraud, such as pre-punched ballots in heavily African American and Democratic precincts in Miami/Dade and Broward Counties

<snip>

Democrats.com Floridagate: http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=239

For the above reasons and many many more reasons, I feel it necessary to vote my conscience. In my opinion, what the media and others did back then, is EXACTLY what they have done to JOHN R. EDWARDS.

BTW: I will be voting for the Dem Nominee, I will be voting my conscious then also!

[skepticscott]

336. As I said

Nader was not the only reason Gore lost, but the fact remains that if 90,000 people had voted for Gore instead of Nader in Florida, none of the other things you went to such lengths to list would have mattered AT ALL to the final result. 90,000 votes was not "a grain of sand thrown in a desert" in this case, not remotely.

What's even more disturbing is that you seem to be saying that since Gore should have gotten a lot more votes in Florida (and I don't disagree with you there...I know all about the voter purges and supression), it should have been OK to vote your conscience, even if that meant voting for Nader. But saying that it's OK to vote your conscience only when you know it won't make a real difference is just moral cowardice. It doesn't take any conviction or conscience to vote for Nader if you knew that Gore would win Florida anyway. The real test of conscience is this: If yours would have been the last vote to be cast and counted in Florida, and you knew that if you voted for Gore, he would be President, and if you voted for Nader, Bush would be president, do you still vote for Nader? If your answer is "No", then voting for Nader when you know Gore will win anyway is not a vote of conscience in any sense of the word.

[lisainmilo]

368. I said I agreed Nader took votes from Gore!

We are talking about the primary, NOT the GE....huge difference! I am a democrat and have been all my life, so to ask me that question is ridiculous, you need to find a Nader supporter who kind of wanted Gore and ask him/her!

What I am saying to you and you obviously disagree, Gore lost the election MOSTLY due to election being fixed. I also believe Ohio was fixed too. It is o.k. to agree to disagree. Nothing you will say will ever change my mind on that. I do not seek your approval, are you seeking mine? I think not. You kind of sound like the scenerio that 2 Americas was talking about with the phone call to JRE, kind of a do what is best for the"Democratic Party". BTW who do you support?

It's my opinion that JRE stood as the perfect ideal for the Democratic party, at least the one I grew up with. As I have said in other posts, I grew up in a Catholic Democratic home, we were taught if you vote Democrat, you are voting for the working man, woman....If you vote Republican you are voting for the Corporations. Now the enormous growth of money and power within the corporate world and the line is getting hard to distinguish between the Democrats and Republicans and what they really stand for, what they really care for. They continue to take lobbyist monies, they bundle if not directly from a PAC or Lobbyist, they find loopholes to get all the money they can, and they take small private donations, all for us to listen to false advertisements and sound bites!

So here I am voting in a system I believe is tainted, my measly little chance to vote for who I believe in, who stood for my ideals and you are telling me NOT TO. :shrug: I don't think so! I will vote in the tainted system in November for the Democratic Nominee also.......because all I have is my own conscience. Sorry you have a problem with that. :shrug:

[Yael]

273. You do know the difference between a primary and the general, right?

[skepticscott]

308. Uh, yeah...thanks

What's your point? That just because it's a primary, it's OK to vote based on self-indulgence instead of with a sense responsibility to your country?

[Yael]

329. Nice poke, but I am saying that voting Edwards/Dodd/Biden/Kucinich (if they are on your ballot)

during a primary to send a voice to the DNC is a different thing than throwing a general when the DNC has no choice but to back the nominee.

HOW in BLAZES is this concept so difficult for you (and the others) to understand?

Is this your first election?

[skepticscott]

342. Well, if you think that sends a message

then this must be YOUR first election, because that's the most naive thing I've ever heard. What message was sent by people voting for candidates that were already out of the running in any past Democratic primaries that has ANY effect whatsoever in the present day? What message was sent by people voting for Nader in the general election in 2000 that has any meaningful influence on parties or candidates today? I'll tell you...zip...zero...none. If you don't agree with that, then you must be saying that everyone else on DU who claims that nothing meaningful has changed in the last 8 years are dead wrong.

On top of that, your vote in a primary DOES have consequences concerning who the eventual Democratic nominee will be, and therefore also has consequences for the general election. Why is THAT so hard for YOU to understand?

[Yael]

355. First, you have apparently never been exposed to a DNC post-election

strategy session. These folks dissect data (for a living) that you never imagined was ever collected -- and they use it to shape party policy.

Second -- I have no druthers on the nominee. I am happy as a clam to let the party decide that for me. Neither of the final 2 represents me nor speaks for me -- but at the end of the day, they are democrats and in the General, they have my vote.

Please let me know what challenges you have to what I have stated here.

[skepticscott]

376. I'm challenging you

to tell me (based on your deep inside knowledge) what important positive changes have been made in Democratic party policy over the last three or four election cycles because of votes cast for candidates that were already out of the running, votes that were cast for no other reason than to "send a message". And then I'm challenging you to put those out in public for everyone here who claims frustratedly that nothing has changed about elections or the Democratic party over that time so that they can learn from you how completely wrong they are. Have at it.

[tomp]

104. it has become an axiom of american politics that...

...the best candidate has the least chance.

[307 MMS]

114. Least chance

That, my friend, says it all. Big $ machine is all it is. It's our money, but we really no longer have a say in it. We know how Bush got his first term, handed to him. But....do you REALLY believe he was re-elected? Sad. Wave good-bye to the US as we knew it. They oughta put up the SOLD sign.

[mother earth]

108. I'm with you, Saracat! Nothing has changed my vote, until I

hear from John that's the way it stays!

[halobeam]

109. I have typed a hundred posts, only to delete them instead of posting them.

I'm so furious, it distorts my points and my writing turns out lousy. I know how you feel. All I will say for now is at least it has happened earlier this time, without having hope for eight months longer. That hurts even more.

I am just reading posts here to try to determine what choice is left for me or whether or not I actually have one in the end. Considering it's Sunday and I vote on Tuesday, and with all the reading and soul searching I'm doing, since I haven't found an answer yet, it's looking to me like there may not be one (an answer).

In the past few days I've leaned toward Hillary, toward Obama, toward Edwards anyway, and toward not voting at all. I'm still at such a loss and still searching. I'm hoping something will click with me soon, because limbo sucks.

I don't hate spunk, I hate limbo.

Your stand with Edwards platform is respectable and solid. Everyone who holds firm (no matter who their dem. candidate is), I envy right now. I'm freaking torn.

Best wishes.

[Straight Shooter]

154. You will not regret voting. You may regret not voting.

Please vote. Think of Gitmo. Think of "bomb bomb bomb Iran" in the White House. Think of the mudslide that will bear down on the world if Craven McCain wins. Repubs count on disenchanted Democrats not to vote. It's their ace in the hole.

[halobeam]

164. thanks.

I entertained the thought briefly, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't vote at all.

I guess process of elimination is as good a place to begin. :)

[Yael]

274. You do know the difference between a primary and the general, right?

[AlertLurker]

120. If you don't support the "backroom deals," don't support Edwards.

Do you honestly believe that Edwards dropped out due to ill health? Lack of funds? Failure to generate enough support? The M$M conspiracy to marginalise his campaign?

Please.

IMHO, it's pretty obvious that Edwards simply SOLD OUT, in order to make a better deal with Clinton or Obama or BOTH. The specifics of with whom and for what, we will no doubt find out at some later date, pending the outcome of the Democratic Corporate Campaign-Off next tuesday.

If you want to hate the system, go right ahead. It's not JUST the system that is corrupt, however, but the people who use and abuse it - people like John Edwards. I have a very hard time believing that he was simply FORCED OUT, somehow.

If you are looking for someone to blame, look no farther than John Edwards. He's been a hypocritical sell-out since he started his "anti-poverty crusade" in NOLA, at the same time Fortress Investments were foreclosing/evicting Katrina victims with Edwards' $16 million "seed money."

[cottonseed]

267. Nice Post.

I was an Edwards supporter first, now in the Obama column, but this isn't the first time this guy's bailed on a campaign. For all the accusations toward "saint" Obama, and their supporters blind support, it seems Edwards gets a pretty clean pass on this site. A simple quick look at some progressive rankings should have taken care of Edwards in reality on this site.

[kelligesq]

326. My my - 44 posts & bashing Edwards - and Canadians bashing JRE too -seems we have an influx

of cockroaches crawling out from dark places

[cottonseed]

373. I'm a cockroach?

I can tell you've got a lovely disposition.

[7horses]

121. Vote for John...

Edwards anyway. Write in his name in November.

[lisainmilo]

327. I will vote for John Edwards Feb 5 but the GE

belongs to the Democratic nominee! The Democratic ticket will NOT split and be handed over to a Republican! Not by me anyway..

[Demeter]

125. It's Even More Blatant in Michigan

The primary fu88up ensured that Edwards supporters couldn't speak, even if they wanted to--but Hillary voters could!

[hiaasenrocks]

127. You're letting Edwards off the hook by making up excuses for why he quit.

I voted for him in SC based largely on his promise to take the fight to the convention.

A few days later, he quit.

If he was "forced out" then he's either a wimp or a sucker. But the fact remains that this was a huge promise to potential voters. He quit. He lied.

[liberalhistorian]

129. If that's true, then why would Edwards have allowed it and

gone along with it if he were truly committed to his ideals and his platform? If he's against the "machine" and he's against corporatist deals like this, then why didn't he fight it? If you're correct, and you very well may be since I agree that his sudden departure looks very suspicious, then it seems to me that he should have stood up and been the fighter he claimed to be and fought it. If it is, indeed, true, then he is just as guilty as they are.

[catrose]

131. Saracat, you are not alone

I'm howling with you.

[beachmom]

133. Please provide links for this "backroom deal". Oh, that's right -- you don't have any!!

Gee, sometimes the simplest reason for something happening is the actual reason. Edwards lost the first 4 states by a large margin. He was not gaining traction, and has dropped out. He has faced reality. Why can't you?

[PerpetuallyDazed]

137. You might wanna check this out...

Strategic Corporate Media Blackout:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/5/12286/27650/142/431084

I suppose it's all just one big coincidence? Yeeeeeah...

[Grateful for Hope]

135. You deserve

a kick and a rec.

[Autumn Colors]

138. I live in CT & will vote Edwards on Tuesday. (nm)

[DesertRat]

143. Do you also think

that the same deals are what forced Kucinich out as well? The MSM fought tooth and nail to keep Kucinich out of the debates. And when he was in one, Russert asked him the ridiculous UFO question which the MSM then used to marginalize him and label him a "kook".

I am angry and disappointed that Kucinich and Edwards were forced out before Super Tuesday as well.
What do you think?

[skepticscott]

149. Do you have any anger

for the people who simply didn't vote for Edwards in South Carolina? Is there something wrong or conspiratorial about them too? And do you think that if more people had voted for Edwards in South Carolina than voted for Obama or Clinton that Edwards would have dropped out?

[DesertRat]

171. No and my post was in reference to the OP

I am not an Edwards supporter, but if he were forced out through some sort of intimidation/threats as is being reported in this thread, that is wrong.
My question is whether the same thing that the OP said happened to Edwards is also what happened to Kucinich.

[kelligesq]

334. Beside Kuch not having financial backing, internal pressure in the party by Rahm Emanuel trying to

get rid of all liberals. The party is now on the right. Emmanuel purposely
dumped people like Tammy Duckworth who was very popular to get in centrists and
right winger dems. The payback for the people" many of these new dems vote with the republicans. The democratic party is to the right...

That tells you something about the previous numerous posts for Obama - a DLC'er and said to be to the right of Hillary which is too far right for me with either of them....

In any case, besides the blackout on Kuch from the media and the debates, and no finances, he has to worry about maintaining his seat in Congress....for sure Rahm
Emmanuel and Nancy Pelosi are trying to get rid of him.

Sure, the dems took over the majority of the house and senate in name only. The dnew dems they seated vote with repbulicans very often.

[kelligesq]

337. Skeptiscott - stop pushing your dope here - give it a rest

[skepticscott]

375. And why precisely should I do that?

Is it because I've been rude and insulting in my posts? If so, feel free to alert the moderators and have me booted. Is it because I've dared to disagree with you and to question the almost cult-like candidate worship and self-indulgent voting behavior that I see here? Deal with it...that's not going away on your say-so.

I expect you have a rather long ignore list, so why not just add me to it, since you don't seem to welcome any dissenting opinions darkening your horizon. Or you could just put your hands over your ears and say "Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah....I'm not listening to you....Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah...voting my conscience..Blah, Blah, Blah!"

[Phred42]

148. Edwards SAID he would stay in it -

He did not.

What happened?

Did Edwards Lie to us?
Was some threat used against him?
Did he make a deal?
Was Edwards just the Judas Goat to pull some of us in?
Is he in the middle of some odd strategy? Remember he said "suspend my campaign" not "end my campaign"

What the hell happened? I have yet to hear any solid, believable, explanation.

I have been out of work since May. I am very close to loosing my house and I sent Edwards money three separate times.
I'm still pissed off at Edwards about this.

[polichick]

152. You're right, he broke his word...

John Edwards owes all of us who supported him a clear explanation.

Someone from the campaign told an NPR reporter that they pretty much knew he'd pull out after SC ~ if that's true, they collected lots more money knowing supporters were going to get screwed.

[kelligesq]

335. Instead of being mad at Edwards,why dont you write Tom Donahue of Chamber of Commerce Los Angeles &

tell him how long you've been out of work and that yu lost your job in May because he's the one shipping your jobs out to India and China...and send the
same letter to your senator and congressman or ask to see them in person at their local office. THEY are allowing your jobs to be sent away - encouraging
it because The Chamber of commerce is donating millions to all of the congressman and senators every year including Obama and Hillary.

You sent Edwards $20 bucks three separate times, but the people responsible for
your job worth $50 or $60,000 or more are your congressman and senator. And that
includes Obama and Clinton.

Judas Goat - how dare you.

Read every single post on here and get an understanding of what's going on - unless youre another Obama plant....in that case you can go to hell.

[Helga Scow Stern]

153. Perhaps after Florida the reality of election fraud became impossible to ignore.

[robinlynne]

203. But that is not a reason to drop out. That is a reason to talk about election fraud.

I guess he would have had to fight the Dem party though, because they don't want to talk about it at all.

[kelligesq]

366. ROBINLYNNE IS A DISINFORMATION PRO-Edwards Suspended but she/he/it spreads dropped out/quit-beware b

barracudas

:thumbsdown:

[asdjrocky]

165. Thank you for this powerful, and heartfelt declaration. K&R

[smoogatz]

167. The deal was

that the voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina liked other candidates better, and the polling going forward was even worse. Edwards needed a win in the early going and failed to finish better than second in any caucus/primary. His distant third-place finish in SC was the obvious final nail in the coffin; if white males didn't turn out to vote for him there, where and when would they? There was no stab in the back: the voters just didn't buy Edwards' born-again populist schtick. Good ideas, unconvincing/uninspiring candidate, inevitable result.

[kelligesq]

338. Thank you Obamanuts 4 your uninformed opinions-same crap different day -bored with ur own threads?

[mnhtnbb]

169. Now what do I do with my Edwards bumper sticker that arrived yesterday?

[Divine Discontent]

187. if you're in a state voting still

use it. you can just say you believe in the things he believes in.

this whole suspending before Super Tuesday, even though he wasn't going to win but a few states at most, implies he realized what was going to happen thanks to his staff, and took the best deal for our issues, and possibly locked up a VP slot from Obama, and a big position from Clinton, as long as he didn't back either.

[Dollface]

217. I'm putting mine on my car.

[bpeale]

294. PUT IT ON YOUR BUMPER!

[mnhtnbb]

313. I think I will. I live in Chapel Hill, NC. Our primary is in May.

[bpeale]

325. i'm leaving my Edwards bumpersticker right on my bumper

I AM AN EDWARDS PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT

[superkia]

182. I wish everyone would have been speaking out about this type...

of stuff back when it was Gravel and Kucinich being railroaded , maybe enough people would have been outraged at this point and Edwards could have managed to stay in? Too many times I see people up in arms when it hits home but no where to be found when its hitting their fellow neighbor and no seems to ever get it.



First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

[cgrindley]

200. Wow... did you just claim that Gravel was the victim of the same conspiracy?

I hope you're being sarcastic.

[superkia]

212. Whatever its called when candidates are ignored and blacked...

out of the race because of their messages. If more people cared about this type of issue even when it doesn't affect them directly, maybe we could see some change.As for Edwards, I'm not sure what his agenda is at this point, I remember him saying that he and Obama were the candidates for change and Clinton was the status quo during one of the debates. If he feels that way I would think he would come out and support Obama if he is looking for change for America? By stepping down and not supporting the other change candidate, his silent voice is helping Clinton into office. Right now America needs some change and I hope Edwards does the right thing.

[cgrindley]

213. Uhhhh... that's called unpopularity with the voters?

Jesus. Gravel is fucking crazy. He had even less chance of being elected than Kucinich. Edwards in comparison was almost electable, but in the end, he just fizzled out. No one gave a shit about his message. His time was over. People despised him on a personal level for a bunch of bullshit. And that was that.

[Two Americas]

246. a challenge

Pick up any phone book or two from the library, and dial a couple of hundred numbers at random.
Ask the people who answer what they think of Edwards or Kucinich. "Who?" will probably be the most common response. See how many numbers you need to call before you find one person who knows anything at all about the message of either candidate.

I don't care which candidate people support, but this persistent and stubborn denial that our democracy has been almost competely destroyed is something that I cannot understand.

[foxer]

311. Carl Rove that you, wondered where you went

[kelligesq]

328. My MY How non-partisan we are cept when u show your hand- Obamanuts.always nasty-its

not working. not working. why dont you all crawl back to the slummy threads
you usually curse each other in.

[desertflamingo]

185. i concur.

i have been so angry and depressed since his announcement. i'm beginning to make arrangements to move to another country. i'm serious. i don't feel like an american anymore. i was raised to believe what we are now was what the ussr was. what china was/is. i cannot bear it.

i have already cast my vote for edwards but it won't matter. too many people only want a winner. too many people want a rock star or to make history. all i want is my country back and the opportunities i was promised as a kid. i'm 51. i have a college degree. i own a house that still has equity in it. i have a trade. but it doesn't matter because every year i get more and more behind. and you know what? i don't live extravagantly, i don't buy toys that i don't need but must have. i don't have cable. i drive a ten year old car that i bought when it was 3 years old. i could go on and on. i can live on $2000 a month. seriously. but y'know what? it's not there anymore. every year wages have been going down, people have less money, fewer people come on vacation (i live in a resort town where we live and die by tourism) and so it goes.

add to that a government - dems & repubs alike - that thinks it's okay to attack innocent nations first. to torture. to wiretap. to "disappear" people. to steal elections. to rig elections. to hand our country over to the corporatists. that it's ok that 47 million of us don't have health care. almost as many are in poverty and more to follow. that "our" president and vice president have broken so many laws and the politicians WE pay with our hard earned tax dollars refuse to address those crimes and will not do anything about it. the erosion and blatant disregard of our constitution on a daily basis comes to mind.

i'm upset that i live in a country where the majority don't care that our news is spoon fed to them by what, 5 or 7 international corporations and THAT's it? and now... the first candidate (who i know is not perfect by any means) for a very long time finally finally finally tells it like it is... PROMISES to stay until the convention and then suddenly and inexplicably "drops out" with some bullshit lame excuse about fucking history. yeah. there will be history. it's called the united states of america. WE are history. toast as they say. no matter whether it's grandpa mc cain, brother barack or mrs. hillary we are history.

i need to get out of here while i still can. i cannot bear to see my country as it really is any longer. the last time i felt this awful - i mean THIS awful and feeling helpless and betrayed with a future bereft of hope and SICK to my core was june 6th 1968. at nearly twelve i already knew what bobby's murder meant and what happened to my dreams.

so yeah. i concur. it stinks to the high heaven and i'm pissed as all hell that people who professed to believe in john's message took what, a minute? a day? to switch to obama or hillary without thought as to what just truly happened.

being the fighter i am, i believe it's time for an edwardian party, meaning, a party that stands for the message that edwards and most of us who support(ed) him believe in with every bone in our bodies. a party that is very clear about its intentions, and its beliefs. a party clean of nuance and double-speak, that is about the america i grew up believing really existed.

but you know what? i'm afraid i'm all fought out. if my brothers and sisters are content to be sheep and go along then i just don't have the energy or will anymore to fight for them. i will continue to urge people to vote for america by voting for edwards, but...

i think the jig is up. it's time to find a new home.

[foxer]

247. nicely said

[ChiciB1]

353. You Just Said What I've Been Saying For A Very Long Time & To Be

honest with you, if there was anyway I could manage it I had thoughts of moving to Costa Rica. A beautiful, wonderful place to live. The have No Army, No Navy or No Air Force. I got a very "unique" T-Shirt from there that shows different animals depicting their version of the military there.

However, I see more and more Americans are buying land there and my thoughts are that it will soon be "taken over" and won't be so blissful in the future. Land prices have gone up, so I suppose that also means everything else has too. The people there are so gentle and loving and it's truly a paradise.

But, my husband is a Native Floridian, all his family is here and there is a generational tie to this place called Florida. When I first moved here it was completely different from what it has become. He was born in Tampa and I've seen many many pictures of the past and it was so nice. I've always lived on the west coast from Clearwater down to where I live now. I like "where" I live in Florida... it's a nice quiet neighborhood very close to the beach, but this COUNTY is simply horrible!

And as I've said many times of late... this is my LAST election as an activist, and even though the so called primary is over here, I voted for Edwards... and as soon as I see "what" kind of ballot we will get, I'm still going to vote for him. I don't know how I'll make it known, perhaps I will only be able to "skip" voting for POTUS! But maybe there will be a place that I can vote NPA! This is the county that has screwed up so many elections lately that I wonder WHY I even bother! Katherine "Cruella" Harris got herself anointed here for two terms, and she MUST have given lessons to our current Supervisor of Elections on HOW TO SCREW THINGS UP ROYALLY before she left. This is the county that still hasn't found 18,000 plus votes.

But I feel the same way as you do. This is NOT an America I ever knew, and I barely recognize the Democratic Party much either. HOPE is not a word in my vocabulary, I replaced it with "wish" because a wish is only that. But to HOPE means you think something may happen, but you're not sure. HOPE is gone now, and I sometimes think there must be some island out there where a person could live in peace. An illusion I know... but a wish perhaps!

It's just a shame, I always thought and worked as activist so I could make things better. Now, I know my voice is but the smallest pin drop, and it is never heard.

I'll do ALL I can to help Edwards now and stay around for GE, just to vote for Edwards... and then I MUST GO! It breaks my heart to say it, but barring some strange thing happening, I just can't fight forever without seeing results. I think it's called "passing the torch" unfortunately it's a white hot one that I'll be passing. Warning, pot holders required!

[JVS]

192. Are you not allowed to talk about the deal, or are you unable to confirm it?

I want to know about this deal.

[cgrindley]

202. There isn't one. It doesn't exist. We've got to stamp this theory out.

He didn't poll very well, never getting the support he wanted.

He didn't win anything useful.

His campaign made some serious missteps (some of which are unfair, but nevertheless left a sour taste in voter's mouths)

He figured out that he wasn't going to win

He withdrew from the race

End of story.

[saracat]

207. Someone should stamp your posts out. Critical thinking is not in you lexicon.Uninformed poss are

annoying. Learn to comprehend and read for God's sake.I suppose it is easier for you to accept what ever pablum you are fed.

[cgrindley]

210. cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo

unfortunately, since you're running a little fast, you're not even right twice a day.

[foxer]

318. You seem awfully interested in quashing these theories

Looking back at your posts you seem bent on marginalizing many of the posters, a very Repug thing to do.

I don't see any evidence to support your BS. All the evidence I've seen leads me to believe the only plausible explanation
is his family was threatened.

[kelligesq]

340. "WE've got to stamp this theory out"WHY IS THAT GRINDER? WHO DO U WORK FOR ? makes u nervous huh? 2

close to the truth?

[mrbluto]

369. Who is "We"?

The royal "We"?

The inclusive "We"? (as in the people in this forum)

Or perhaps "We" as in some sort of team, or "We" as in "the people I work for"?

Things are getting strange on this site.

It's like a call-in poll where 40% plus of the respondents call in to say they have "no opinion". Not exactly, but somewhere in that neighborhood.

Why do you bother cgrindley?

His campaign is suspended - what more do you want?

(and it does seem to be something you desired)

There's a shrillness to your assertions.

As in: "End of story guys! heh. you're still talking about him damnit. heh. um.. no more kidding guys. End of Story. END OF STORY!"

[mmm413]

204. From what I can gather

Edwards is still on the ballot in a number of states. Vote for him, if he is in your state. If nothing else, he'll get delegates, which equal power.

[kelligesq]

343. Yep. 26 states that we know of. 24 of them on Super Tuesday. Vote JRE

[Dollface]

214. It is apparent that the media and their corporate masters chose the candidates.

I have been depressed since my Pollyanna-like optimism crashed down around me in the face of reality. Edwards was my choice because he was untethered, honest and angry. Then the DNC took away my primary vote and the media took away my candidate. I've tried to be excited by the candidacy of Obama but he seems like Hillary lite to me. I have no reason to watch any more punditry or to be involved. I won't vote for any of the Repukes so that leaves whomever the DNC allows. So whatever...

[Shine]

226. I just voted for Edwards on my mail-in ballot, which I'll walk in on Tuesday!

:woohoo:

The primaries are for voting one's conscience. :thumbsup:

:hi: saracat!

[wundermaus]

258. My family of four voting adults will be doing the same.

We are going to personally walk into our polling place and all vote for Edwards on February 5th.

[Dollface]

372. Thank you

[fuzzy otter pop]

231. The real reason Edwards pulled out

Obama's strong support among young voters,who actually are turning out to vote for him

is growing the base by leaps and bounds.

even if he were to go down to defeat to McCain, the base of the party will be forever enlarged

add this to the possibility that at any moment John might have had to suspend because of

personal reasons (knock on wood)

and that john had already successfully forced his issues on too the table,

i think he succumbed to Kennedy's pressure out of political logic

faced with the very real possibility that corrupt super delegates
(who were already more than likely pressuring John themselves)

might force a Hillery nomination down our throats
and that this would alienate the future power base of the party

who are young, idealistic, and more motivated than i have ever seen,

john got out of the way

no endorsements before Super T
because he is not a sell out and does not want to look like one

and he will still snag a few delegates to make his points

no matter what anyone says,
johns people will break down as follows

1. stay home (25%)
2. vote for him in protest (25%)
3. go to Obama 3 to 1 over the Borg assimilation machine(50%)

demonstrating once and for all that this is not about some paleolithic
race or sex war

If Obama can pull it off, the nation has at least a hope for change

if he loses

we will still grow stronger as a party
(huge youth turn out will be boon to down ticket races)

but with Hillery it is a lose-lose situation
even if she beat McCain (unlikely, she just has too much bad history and she fails to inspire people)

it would still be open season on her in DC and in the MSM
and
who in our party is really going to feel like defending her? seriously?

I would rather have one term McCain (old and crazy)
take the fall for the impending doom that let the bastards blame it on the enabling Hillery and the Democrats by proxy


I honestly feel that a clean loss with Obama(he just might win too!)
is better than a dirty win with Hillery

i think Edwards was convinced by Kennedy that he had to give Obama the room to take the machine down once and for all.

the reasoning was that
unless John could guaranty that he would stay in all the way to the convention
to watch Obama's back
NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENED

then Kennedy argued John needed to drop out before Tuesday
or he risked crippling Obama and leaving them both vulnerable to Hillbot treachery
and
given Elizabeth's condition this is a guaranty John could not make
and so he did what he had to.

and believe me if they fuck this up, he will be back.

[foxer]

321. Nice fantasy, Mine have naked women

[Yael]

330. I don't care who your (collective your) candidate is

that is funny.

:D

[kelligesq]

344. I dont think Obama is going to make it to covention- Fitzgerald Grand Jury

and even if he gets through the Grand Jury he'll be tainted - people wont like it
and this entire country is not going to vote for a black man especially in the South and the West - Kennedy is betting that with the caucasion man gone-Edwards-
that white men will vote for Obama, a man instead of Hillary. I highly doubt that.

Ayway the Chicago Tribune is still doing a number on Obama - he's not going to survive the money questions.

You obviously are an Obama fan - Hillary "treachery" - cmon now....what are you going to call her next - The Dragon Lady ?

[Mnemosyne]

255. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

I vote April 22 in PA and I am voting for John if I have to write him in. He NEVER writes a speech and certainly NEVER reads one. As soon as I saw him looking at notes, I knew they threw the fear of god into him.

Enough! Fuck the corporatists.

This will be my last election. I've watched these creeps for years and they only get more powerful.

Great post and thread, Sara. :hug:

[Two Americas]

257. Why did Edwards go along?

What could have happened to persuade or coerce Edwards to go along with the orchestrated "unity" public relations effort and media event?

Why are we tempted to go along? Why are so many DUers going along? He had much more at risk than any of us do.

The pressure to not be a "purist" and not be a "idealist" and not be a "dreamer" is pervasive at all levels of modern society. The enticements and the threats to get in line and compromise and play the game are very powerful.

What could have happened to Lincoln? How was he persuaded to give up on being the Senator from Illinois in 1858 when he had the most votes?

"For the good of the party."

"There is too much at stake."

"We need to be practical."

"We can't let the pro-slavery people win."

"Don't get me wrong, I agree with your opposition to slavery, but..."

"Why wreck your career over this? How can you advance the cause if your career is wrecked?"

"The support just isn't there, we need to face reality."

"We need the support of certain powerful people later, and they are opposed to you right now."

"You need to put the cause above your personal ambition."

Lincoln withdrew.

Now, did the anti-slavery people say "oh well Lincoln lost so I guess the cause is lost and we had better settle for and support the lesser of two evils - Stephen Douglas?" Sure, many did.

Here is what Lincoln said about that:

"There are those who denounce us openly to their own friends, and yet whisper to us softly that Senator Douglas is the aptest instrument there is with which to effect that object. They wish us to infer all, from the fact that he now has a little quarrel with the present head of the dynasty; and that he has regularly voted with us on a single point, upon which he and we have never differed. They remind us that he is a great man and that the largest of us are very small ones. Let this be granted. 'But a living dog is better than a dead lion.' Judge Douglas, if not a dead lion, for this work, is at least a caged and toothless one.

Our cause, then, must be entrusted to, and conducted by, its own undoubted friends—those whose hands are free, whose hearts are in the work—who do care for the result. Two years ago (we) mustered over thirteen hundred thousand strong. We did this under the single impulse of resistance to a common danger. With every external circumstance against us, of strange, discordant, and even hostile elements, we gathered from the four winds, and formed and fought the battle through, under the constant hot fire of a disciplined, proud, and pampered enemy. Did we brave all then, to falter now?—now, when that same enemy is wavering, dissevered, and belligerent! The result is not doubtful. We shall not fail—if we stand firm, we shall not fail. Wise counsels may accelerate, or mistakes delay it; but, sooner or later, the victory is sure to come."

[Yael]

331. You are the best.

Thank you for being the voice of reason. You have been very instrumental in educating many of us (me at the front of the line) in not repeating the mistakes but learning from history.

:patriot:

[Two Americas]

356. remember Yael

"A live dog is better than a dead lion."

We may be mere dogs compared to all of those lions running the show, but we are live dogs and they are dead lions.

Keep on howling!

[Yael]

358. For you , my friend --

HOWL!!!!!

:woohoo

[cottonseed]

263. I think Dodd got the same treatment n/t

[Yael]

332. He did -- and so did Biden (my #2)

[kelligesq]

346. Yes, I'd like to see Dodd replace Harry Reid. At least he's got some fire n anger n/t

[Niche]

279. Thanks for that saracat!

Have you sent it to DNC? I'd add my signature to this.

:dem:


P.S. I miss old DU. Does anyone know where the "real" DUers have gone? I don't recognize this site anymore.

[Myrina]

289. 'Making history' isn't just about race and gender ...

We could also have 'made history' by having a nominee who truly represents the Average Joe and who was willing to fight the class war along with us instead of doing the Corporatocracy's bidding like the 2 fools we have left to pick from.

:(

[Yael]

333. Well said.

I have been looking for the words to express this sentiment as class isn't apparently as important as sex or gender these days.

Thank you for being so succinct.

[kelligesq]

347. Well said, but Kennedy wants this to be his legacy, getting the 1st black man in as President,, the

people be damned for what they want.

[blues90]

306. It's very clear to me Edwards as well as Kucinich were not

allowed the same coverage by the filthy MSM as even freaks like Huck and Rudy or Mitt .

It is clear to me that MSM picks the candidates .

I agree we who supported either were silenced

[kelligesq]

348. You can still vote for Edwards - his name is on all the ballots Super Tuesday

[kelligesq]

349. Gd nite all, busy day tomorrow campaigning for Edwards :)

[DesertRat]

371. Kucinich is on my AZ ballot as well

I MSM wants us to think that there are only 2 names on the ballot.

[unkachuck]

352. thank you, saracat....

[MisterGamut]

363. I agree ... mostly

I'm not exactly down with the conspiracy theory parts, but I agree that the media was lazy when it came to talking about the actual issues, and they focused too much on celebrity and "the historic opportunity" to elect a woman or a person of color. And I don't think Edwards left because of some backroom deal. His message was coopted by Hillary and Obama, his money was running low, and every day he spent in an unwinnable race was a day that the cohesion of our message as a party was splintered like the GOP still is. I live in Ohio. I haven't seen a meaningful primary election in this state in my lifetime. The freakin' caucuses and early primaries always decide the race long before I ever get to vote. But Edwards did the math. There are only two reason for a candidate who cannot win to stay in the race. One is so that everyone-who-wants-to gets a chance to vote for him/her; and the other is related, and that is to make the party hear his/her message. Edwards succeeded brilliantly in the latter, and he doesn't need the former BECAUSE he succeeded with the latter.

[ForRusty]

365. :( I'd feel the same way if my candidate had to leave because she was so overshadowed. nt

[kelligesq]

367. Reminder: Edwards campaign is Suspended Not Ended eom

[marions ghost]

374. once again

progressives are left out in the cold. Edwards was it for this time around.

If we had a system of proportional representation, liberals would be represented. This country would be far better off.

Now at this point I don't know what we can do. Sure I plan to vote for Edwards in the primary, but once again, it'll just be assumed that we'll go with any Dem in the general, especially considering the grotesque alternatives offered by the Rethuglicans.

The saddest thing is how Obama and to a certain extent Hillary have been sold as candidates who will fix things. And then when they don't really do that the media will still tell us everything is OK.

I don't see a light at the end of this tunnel right now.

x(