I'm sick to death of uncompromising extremists!!!

[IrateCitizen]

You know, there used to be a time in which Democratic Underground was a place in which you could engage in meaningful debate on issues and strategy. While that still holds true in isolated instances, by and large DU seems to have turned into a cesspool of uncompromising ideologues on both sides of the fence.

I personally supported Dennis Kucinich in the primaries, and voted for him in NY on Super Tuesday. I did so because I believe in his ideas, and think he brings a meaningful perspective to the debate that has to be heard above the din of media buzz. I also did so because I consider myself to be a progressive, and Dennis's campaign best matched the long history of progressivism as exemplified by the former Wisconsin Senator, Fighting Bob LaFollette.

Also, I recognize that while John Kerry does not represent nearly everything I would want in a candidate, he is about 1000 times better than the current squatter in the WH -- on environmental issues alone. I will have absolutely NO problem campaigning for him this fall, and pulling a lever for him in November.

That being said, if I hear from one more "mainstream Dem" about how Dennis Kucinich is nothing more than a "fringe candidate" and how he "only got 2-3% in the primaries" and the like, I am going to F***ING SCREAM! Each and every time you say something like that, you insult every person out there like me who in all other ways should be an ally of yours.

Furthermore, if I hear one more person telling everyone to STFU and "get in line behind Kerry", I am going to lose it as well. In case you forgot, there is still a party platform to be developed, even if the nominee is virtually decided. Last I checked, vigorous discussion of issues surrounding that platform were NOT grounds for treasonous expulsion from the party ranks. Get over yourself already, and open you mind up to people who might have a slightly different perspective.

To my fellow progressives, if you persist in browbeating others about how much "purer" you are than they are, and maintain the view that there is no difference between Kerry and Bush, and that voting for anyone other than the Democratic nominee -- unless you're in an overwhelmingly blue or red state -- will somehow instigate some sort of serious change, then you're no friend of mine. This is not the time for rigid ideologues. If you want to get mainstream folks to consider your point of view, the first step is not telling them how substandard they are. The first step on BOTH sides is to shut your f***ing mouth and LISTEN to them and CONSIDER what they have to say.

Even between the most centrist and progressive of us here, we probably agree on at least 75% of the basic issues. Why then do we persist in concentrating instead on that 25% or less upon which we disagree? Is it our egotistical need to feel that we're somehow "right" or more "morally justified" than the other side? Well, none of us are. We're all hypocrites. And unless we ALL begin to open our ears and listen to each other and concentrate on that common ground, we will continue to be divided.

We don't have to agree upon everything. We never will. But we need to concentrate on the overwhelming number of things upon which we DO agree -- and treat each other with a little respect. Do unto your neighbor as you would have done to yourself, and all that other stuff.

[alcuno]

1. Many people see compromise as a sign of weakness.

I see compromise as a sign of strength.

[RichM]

2. This is actually a pretty good attempt to bridge the divide.

But..but.. Please, can't we persist in telling the stupid mainstream Dems how much purer we are than them? Just for a little while more? Please? They're so cute when they get mad! }(

[sandnsea]

6. Do it in June

Right now we need a united front to put Bush on the run. We need a strong 53-47 margin for at least a month, two would be good. Once we've really chipped away at the right, we can strengthen the position of the left. But first, we have to look like we're truly reflective of the mainstream voice and that happens in the polls.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IrateCitizen]

22. You're simply not getting my point

Right now we need a united front to put Bush on the run.

When I hear the words "united front", what automatically comes to mind is "STFU". Sorry, but that's NOT what we need right now.

We need a strong 53-47 margin for at least a month, two would be good.

Do you have any idea WHY we have pulled ahead in the polls? Because of the FREE MEDIA COVERAGE surrounding the primaries, and the fact that ISSUES were actually being discussed during this time. Also, if you expect this to stay static over the next few months, you're deluding yourself. Now is the time to KEEP discussing issues in order to solidify our position. The way to do that is not to march lockstep with the same answers and avoid unpleasant issues -- but rather to continue to ask serious questions and invite respectful diversity of opinion in order to hash out the best solutions.

Once we've really chipped away at the right, we can strengthen the position of the left. But first, we have to look like we're truly reflective of the mainstream voice and that happens in the polls.

Well, the polls say that a majority of Americans feel that they don't have a voice in politics. The polls say that a majority of Americans are dissatisfied with the current state of our health care system. The polls say that a majority of Americans feel that money has an overwhelming influence in politics.

Should we abandon these ISSUES then, and instead concentrate on pandering to an ever-fickle electorate? Or should we perhaps continue to ask serious questions about the problems before us and show the public that the Democratic Party is not one to shy away from tackling the serious problems that we face as a nation and fighting for regular people?

[sangh0]

26. Why is political organization the same as STFU?

Is that what MLK was saying when called for political organizing? You note that many Americans don't feel that they don't have a voice in politics. Political organizing can give them that voice, and yet calls on DU for unity are seen as STFU?

[IrateCitizen]

27. I'd like to hear the initial poster's explanation, if you please.

I am well aware of what your definition of "unity" is, and it probably pretty well coincides with mine. Unfortunately, calls for "unity" on DU lately have seemed to take an overwhelming tone of "no dissent allowed".

I have no problem with unity. But respectful dissent and vigorous discussion of the issues before us are an essential part of fostering true unity. People can disagree on a few points while remaining focused on a common goal. Judging by the work of Dr. King, don't you think he'd agree with that as well?

[sangh0]

29. Aren't you the initial poster?

And you were the one who said "When I hear the words "united front", what automatically comes to mind is "STFU". "

While I'm certain there are people who like you to STFU, I really don't think it's reached the point where any criticism of your criticism equates to STFU. Sometime, those criticizing the criticism are also trying to participate in "respectful dissent and vigorous discussion". Your equating criticism with STFU is as extreme as the one you attribute to your critics. I am truly surprised that you take such a reactionary position

People can disagree on a few points while remaining focused on a common goal. Judging by the work of Dr. King, don't you think he'd agree with that as well?

MLK never said that everyone who criticized him was saying STFU. Your position is extremist in the sense that it does not allow for the possibility that the person disagreeing with you (or anyone who criticizes Kerry) is trying to refute your criticism, and NOT try to make you STFU

[IrateCitizen]

30. I'm referring to sandnsea's post as the "initial poster"

What I meant was the poster to whom I was initially responding, at that poster was not you. Clear enough yet? :p

Sometime, those criticizing the criticism are also trying to participate in "respectful dissent and vigorous discussion". Your equating criticism with STFU is as extreme as the one you attribute to your critics. I am truly surprised that you take such a reactionary position.

Well, I never said I'm perfect, or that I wasn't guilty of a few missteps myself. I just can't help it, given the climate of this forum, to translate the calls to "jump on the bandwagon" as "STFU". Perhaps I will deign to be a little more questioning rather than condemning of such rhetoric in the future. That way, if the poster reveals their calls for "unity" to be much in line with what you and I would see it as, I'll be fully accepting. If the person reveals their unity to mean "STFU" upon further questioning, then I can still reserve my right to denounce their closemindedness.

[sangh0]

31. That sounds about right

I'm glad to hear that you are willing to consider the real intentions behind the debate. And thanks for clearing up the sandnsea thing.

[INTELBYTES]

3. ABB first, ABK second.

:bounce:

[K8-EEE]

25. ABK=Bush Supporter

I mean, DOESN'T IT? It's gonna be one or the other, that's a given.

[IrateCitizen]

32. No, it doesn't mean that K8-EEE

Actually, the overwhelming majority of people who would vote for a more liberal third-party candidate over the Democrat are most certainly NOT "pro-Bush". If anything, they are voting third party because they feel that the Democratic Party does not go far enough in challenging the policies of Bush or in representing progressive reforms.

The key in reaching such people lies not in accusing them of supporting the person whom they probably loathe as much (or more) as we do. The key lies in compelling them to ask the proper questions to bring them to a realization that the best way to advance their progressive ideals in electoral politics is to select the candidate with a realistic shot at winning who represents the lesser impediment to their agenda.

You can't force people to come to certain conclusions. They can only come to their own. Browbeating them or accusing them of aiding and abetting the enemy is not helpful in accomplishing this goal.

[Vladimir]

4. Very well said

[chiburb]

5. Thank you. n/t

.

[izzie]

7. What an awful thing to say.

When these group gets going on what they believe they are all over the place and do not seem to care if someone does not go right down the line. I do wish the group would play the game and talk more but every thing is to short and fast to me.I do wish they would talk of what they think more. I forget names but the guy with the Canada flag is pretty good. Also others.Like Machiavelli came up and it would have been nice to see some thoughts on that turning up.

[Frederic Bastiat]

8. I say let the lemmings pass...

;)

[w4rma]

9. Me too. (n/t)

[Armstead]

10. How about uncompromising moderates?

:evilgrin:

[IrateCitizen]

20. There is nothing "moderate" about those engaging in hyperbole

with regards to those whom they tirelessly attempt to portray as "fringe" or "ultra-left" in order to marginalize their perspective.

I know what you're getting at, though. Seriously, Armstead, you have always been one of my favorite posters -- not because I agree with everything you say, but because you are a person who is continuously willing to pursue the deeper QUESTIONS that urge us to think and consider points of view we might otherwise write off immediately. Personally, I am just sick to death of those on both sides of the fence who attempt to shut down such raising of questions the very moment they're even mentioned.

[Armstead]

33. That I agree with

I was prinmarily joking, but I agree with that.

It really is counterproductive to attenpt to shut down thinking beyond the "conventional wisdom" by automatically labelling it as whining, naive, unrealistic, anti-Kerry, fringe left, etc.

IMO trying to think "outside the box" is the only way to keep the political system from getting stale or merely reactionary. The GOp is reactionary enough. The Democratic natural role should be exploring new territory. Especially under prsent coditions, when the old terriroty has become so polluted (metaphorically speaking).

11. uh, has everyone's sense of humor gone on vacation?

I was expecting at least one response to the title's irony by now, but nada , nothing.
You know something like "I absolutely emphatically refuse under any circumstances to compromise with someone who won't compromise"

[salin]

12. Agreed - and for those who think that starting a thread

from either "extremist"-warrior perspective about how awful the other group is ... or should shut up... or due to their support that they must be bush enablers or the like... do folks really think these threads do ANYTHING except spur two or more counter-threads? And then the same persons post "stop the threads"

Those who intend to antagonize- and then antagonize more by bitching about the response... are the driving force behind this perpetualmotionflamefest that prevents real discussions from happening.

[Debi]

14. Could someone please get me the words

to Kumbya?? :evilgrin:

Seriously - aren't we all in it for the goal...:kick:ing Bush out?

Does it matter how PURE we are?

[The Magistrate]

15. Well Said, Mr. Citizen!

Excellent advice, Sir.

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disasterous and the unpalatable."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[MuseRider]

16. I caucus

in less than 2 weeks and I will caucus for Dennis Kucinich. I will continue to do all I can for him until Kerry has all the delegates he needs but at the same time I will pull behind Kerry. I am going to hear Wes Clark tonight and I am sure to come home with Kerry buttons. We have a much better organized progressive network than ever before so this is the moment (LOL) to begin to work within the system. I have my problems with Kerry but nothing like I have with Bush*, NOTHING, and I think Kerry will be open to some of our ideas. Now is the time for us to get in the door and grow. So, all in all, I guess what I am saying is that I agree with you and will be behind Kerry all the way AFTER I get my chance to put in my vote for Kucinich. I do feel pure but I realize that that is only in my own mind. Others feel pure with a different candidate. I do not understand why we have to say the things we do here.

[Debi]

17. I caucused for Dean

in January - still feeling the sting - but understand that Bush must go am willing to pull that lever in November. The fact that we are active...doesn't that lend to purity?

[MuseRider]

18. Yes, it stings.

As far as purity I don't think so. Almost everyone here has worked in some way for their candidate so perhaps we are all pure!

I would not be so willing to jump on the Kerry bandwagon if I did not think that through Dean and Kucinich and a whole bunch of other people that we are somehow stronger than ever. I am certain this movement will not stop this time, too many of us are upset. I also tend to think Kerry will listen, at least I hope so.

[Debi]

19. I'm not jumping here...not at all!

I'm just saying that I'll vote for the guy in November.

My energies (and dollars) will go to candidates that supported my candidate (and his movement).

[IrateCitizen]

21. And MuseRider, we agree 100% on approach.

You know that I consider myself to be a progressive and supporter of progressive ideals. And I have supported Dennis Kucinich and voted for him. I would love to live in a country in which someone like Dennis Kucinich would have a fair shot at being elected President -- but unfortunately, we do not live in such a country. That being said, we have to do the best we can with the situation we are dealt.

You are doing precisely the right thing in continuing to support progressive ideals by caucusing for Dennis -- and by taking the path that will provide the lesser impediment toward realizing those goals by voting for the Democratic nominee in November.

Rather than being one with whom I might agree 75% of the time -- I have found that you are a person with whom I agree more like 98-99% of the time, so it would be utter foolishness to ever seriously quarrel over that 1-2%.

[Mairead]

23. Did you ever --I'm sure you must have done-- hear the story about

how arseholes came to rule the world? It has some relevance for our situation.

[K8-EEE]

24. I Totally Agree!

Lovely post!! I think a lot of what I read here is just childish and/or delusional. The reality of the situation is: Kerry or four more years of Bush? Anybody who honestly thinks that Kerry wouldn't be better, I don't know what they are doing here. They should either run for office themselves or be supporting some 3rd party candidate or just do nothing.

[blindpig]

28. well said

You're assignment today is to produce a like post for these stupidly devisive north vs south threads. Every time I start I lose heart after 2 or 3 paragraphs..............

[rucky]

34. Wow. This is the first time I've seen the Golden Rule cited on DU

seriously. It's so simple and it works every time (except for masochists & suicidal people). Bravo!

[flaminbats]

35. I'm sorry you feel this way....

I was taught to believe that politics is the art of the possible. It is taking something that may seem impossible, or unworkable by two opposing sides..and hammering out a solution which helps all the opposing parties obtain their needs.

The individual who taught me this was the same person who sparked my interest in politics and pushed me to work on my first Congressional campaign. Although he has died of cancer, the spirit of what he has taught me shall live in me forever..

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Your plea will fall on deaf ears, because you are talking to people

who are here to disrupt, plain and simple.