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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:14 PM
Original message
How to stop Dean
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 09:24 PM by jeter
I am a Dean supporter. I want him to win. But I think the approach taken by people here and among the Washington Democrats (Lieberman, Kerry, Gephardt) is ALL WRONG.

This is the dumbest strategy I have ever seen.

Can anyone remember any candidate that has won an election based on smears and attacks alone? You have to have a clever balance between tough questions and an overall message which is consistent with each other.

Example: If you attack Dean for being weak on defence. You better be strong on defence. You better have an alternative plan to promote. (The only one who can do this legitimately, Wes Clark, is the only one not attacking). Otherwise, you look like an asshole. If you say, "Dean can't win." You better have a 10 to 20% advantage in the polls against Bush - which isn't the case, the only one who can say he does better is Clark who does only 1 to 2% better - otherwise you look like an asshole.

Guess what? Nobody will vote for an asshole.

It didn't work for Gray Davis. It didn't work for Mark Green. It doesn't work. Never has. Never will.

Now that my rant is over. For people who really hate Dean and under no circumstances will vote for him. Who irrationally would rather anyone but Dean. There is only one choice.

It's not John Kerry. It's not Joe Lieberman. It's not Dick Gephardt. I think many Dean supporters, myself included, have developed such a hatred for these three candidates, that just as you won't vote for Dean. We won't vote for these Washington Dems.

The only candidate that may bring this party together is Wesley Clark. Not because he is a better man than Dean. He isn't. Not because his experience outweighs Dean's, it doesn't. Believe me, the fact that Clark has no political experience will hurt him as much as Dean having no foriegn policy experience hurts him. That is why I have always been such a strong proponent of a Dean/Clark ticket. Because their resumes complement each other.

That said. If you look at it logically, and put away your partisan hats, this is what will happen once the primaries begin.

On January 19th, 2004 - Iowa will hold its caucus'. I don't care what anybody says. Gephardt has to win. Not by one or two percent either. He has to win at least by 5%. Possibly 10%. To show any traction. After all, Gephardt won this is 1988. He is from next door Missouri. He has built a career helping this constituency. He has to win or he is out. No ands ifs or buts about it. Win or die.

On January 27th, 2004 - New Hampshire will hold its primary. Dean has a gigantic lead here. If he wins Iowa, it is almost a certainty that he will win here too. Like Gephardt in Iowa, Kerry has to win. In fact, the other candidates (minus Gephardt) benefit from the fact that two New Englanders - Dean from Vermont and Kerry from Massachusettes - are running this year. Because it takes pressure off of them to win this important primary. The way I see it and still see it. Which ever of these two wins NH moves on, which ever loses is out. The only chance for Kerry (and it is not impossible) is to finish second in Iowa (which is possible) and get his own bounce into NH. If he falters. If he chooses, as he seems to be choosing now, to make Dean the core of his own campaign "vote for me because i'm not Dean" is all Kerry is essentially saying. Then he will lose it. If he catches fire after a strong second in Iowa and becomes John Kerry again. Then he may pull off an upset at which point Dean's candidacy will be finished.

This is the only way the "Washington Democrats" can stop Dean. Lieberman simply can't do it. What I believe will happen is that Dean will win both Iowa and New Hampshire and thereby knock out both Gephardt and Kerry from the race.

This will leave four viable candidates: Howard Dean; Wesley Clark; Joe Lieberman; and John Edwards.

This will correspond with Junior Super Tuesday on February 3rd.

The primaries this day will feature: Arizona, Delaware, Missouri, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina.

This will be the first real test for Wesley Clark. John Edwards really only has a shot in South Carolina. If he loses there, it's over for him. Even winning that state alone may not help him much. I believe at this point Edwards should or will be positioning himself for a second spot on the ticket.I just don't see Lieberman doing well anywhere - outside of Conneticut. Lieberman is just an asshole of the highest degree. There is no method or logic to his attacks. He attacks for 'God knows' what reason. Sour grapes probably. Republican backers likely.

That means on February 3rd, it will become a race between Dean and Clark. I'm of two minds here. One thing I am certain of is that the polls will change dramatically at this point.

First, if Dean wins Iowa and New Hampshire - which is likely - he'll almost certainly get a bounce in the polls. Remember John McCain after winning in New Hampshire. Remember the bump he got. Remember the bump Clinton got after he began winning primaries in 1992. I also see him getting a bump for this reason. Nothing dispells talk about being a loser like winning.

Second, with Kerry and Gephardt out of the race, I see Clark picking up the bulk of that support. Especially Kerry, who has turned being the anti-Dean into an art form.

So this means that at this point Clark and Dean will emerge as the front runners and people will have to choose between them.

Lieberman 10%
Edwards 5%
Braun 5%
Sharpton 5%
Kucinich 3%
Clark/Dean 70+%

So it may be Dean 40% and Clark 30% or vice versa. Or a little closer, Dean 35% Clark 35%. But the numbers will be in that range.

Then the pressure will mount on LIEberman and Edwards to withdraw and support Clark. The DNC, DLC and Clinton will do everything in their power to throw the nomination to Clark.

Now the primaries:

Clark has to win at least three - possibly four. If he doesn't, then he could be in serious trouble. If Dean wins South Carolina, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Delaware. And Clark manages to win only North Dakota and Arizona. You can see the problem? Just winning a couple won't be enough.

The important thing to remember is that at this point you have to KILL Dean's candidacy. If you don't then the advantage will soon go back to Dean.

On February 6th to February 9th - Democrats abroad vote. This will almost certainly go for Dean. Because the anti-Dean forces won't have the ability to get to these voters and Dean's internet driven campaign will give him the edge.

February 7th, the Michigan and Washington Primaries. Dean has received some notable and serious union support. I can't think of any that Clark has gotten. And Dean leads substantially in Washington State.

February 8th, Maine. Vermonts next door neighbor. I say this goes Dean easily.

February 10th, Tennessee and Virginia. This may, on its surface look good for Clark, but remember that Gore has endorsed Dean. Gore is from Tennessee. He may have lost the state to Bush, but among Democrats he still carries his weight.

February 14, DC and Nevada. I think this is really the next primary where Clark could do well. I'm not sure who's ahead in Nevada - but at best it's a toss up. And in DC, this is about the African American vote. Clinton and Andrew Young could prove very benefitial to Clark.

February 17, Wisconsin. Toss-up.

February 24, Hawaii/Idaho/Utah. This here is where the balance could turn. If Clark scores a win in VA and polls well in TN (even winning it), then wins in DC and Nevada and then Wisconsin. He may have put the breaks on Dean's campaign. Then if he wins Idaho and Utah (he consistently does better in the west), that will lead to the show down on Super Tuesday.

Clark only gets here if he polls well and scores some wins. Otherwise Dean will have all the momentum and all the money and Clark simply won't be able to compete.

March 2, Super Tuesday. California, Conneticut, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusettes, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, Vermont.

I say reasonably. Clark can only expect to win six of the 10. But they happen to be the six largest. Clark is currently ahead in California (barely), he may win New York (with Hillary's support and Chuck Rangle), Conneticut (toss-up), Georgia (almost certainly), Maryland (toss-up, last poll actually had Dean ahead), and Ohio. Dean will definitely win: MA, MN, RI and Vermont. Dean still has the advantage here. But a second possibility is open for Clark if he doesn't score a decisive victory on Feb. 3.

Regardless, I think one will drop out after this. Possibly even earlier.

The race could go beyond this date if Clark wins those six states or maybe five of them.

The next week:
March 8, America Samoa

March 9, Southern Primaries. Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas.
I think Dean could actually do well here. He polls well in Texas and Florida and is generally competitive in the south. This could offset any losses the week before.

March 13, Kansas. (Clark).

March 16, Illinois. (Dean).

March 20, Alaska, Guam, and Wyoming. (Clark)

April 13, Colorado. (Clark).

April 17, Virgin Islands. (Dean).

April 27, Pennsylvania. (Toss-up).

May 4, Indiana and North Carolina. (Clark).

May 11, Nebraska and West Virginia. (Toss up).

May 18, Arkansas and Kentucky (Clark). Oregon (Dean).

June 1, Alabama and South Dakota (Clark).

June 6, Puerto Rico (Dean).

June 8, Montana (Clark) and New Jersey (Dean).




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exclark4dean Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. GREAT post ! Ba-Ba-Boom ! Thank you sir
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. I Disagree in Part, But Thanks for the Interesting & Solid Analysis, AND
Please edit out the profanity and the "LIE"berman bits, or the Mods will lock your thread!

DTH
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent post! nt
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. Dr Dean is doing a masterful job of stopping Dr Dean
his gaffes are getting to be a daily thing.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. What gaffes?
I don't accept that. People who don't support him making everything he says out into a "gaffe."

His comments about Terry McAuliffe were right on.

He was right about Saddam's capture not making us safer.

How were these gaffes?
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. OK you do not have to accept that
but the majority of other people do.

But to start, he accuses McAuliffe of failing to provide leadership and then askes that he do something that would require leadership. That is a metaphysical impossibility and insulting to boot.

Re Hussein, American troops are hundreds of insurgents better off just to scratch the surface.

His decision to ignore "silly" attacks is arrogant and a sad attempt to hide from his own tongue.

But I'll have to admit that my personal favorite was using his dead brother to further his campaign by referring to him as POW/MIA and the painful backtracking afterwards.

All these things will come back to people as they walk into the voting booth, not the supposedly beneficial anger.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Nonsense.
I think it only makes sense to challenge someone's leadership and ask him to provide it by illustrating an example.

McAuliffe is the one who organized these primaries. He controls the party machinery. Dean is playing by his rules. He is winning playing by his rules. Then when the other Democrats start attacking him with the ferosity that we have seen over the past months, I think it is only logical that you would go to the said "leader" and ask him to mediate.

That isn't a gaffe. That's common sense.

Second, re: Hussein. Perhaps your next argument will be how the war itself was a holy crusade and we should quit our quibbling and just agree to appoint Bush Holy American Emperor for life. This may come as a shock to you, but there are a substantial number of people in this country who opposed and still oppose the war in Iraq. They opposed the war, not because they are these pot-smoking peaceniks as some would describe them. But because they have good judgement. They saw the United States already involved in another war. A more important war. A War against terrorism. They saw Iraq as nothing more than a reckless, unnecessary distraction which ultimately claimed the lives of nearly 500 US soldiers, has cost the US more than $100 billion, and has stretched our forces to the point where our ability to find, fight and capture terrorists and their various cells, has been diminished. That's why I opposed the war in Iraq. When I looked to my representatives in Congress to address this. Rather than expressing or representing my point of view - which also happens to be the point of view shared by most Democrats - they ran for cover and blindly supported the President without once demanding or even politely asking for evidence to support the reasons given to go to war. Senator Kerry now argues that he was tricked into supporting the war in Iraq. That the President lied to him. But I am certain that Howard Dean, if elected President of the United States, will never be tricked into fighting an unnecessary war.

Now that my rant is over. As far as Saddam Hussein goes, I think Dean should stick by his statements - because they are true. The capture of Saddam Hussein has not made the United States safer against terrorism. President Bush has admitted that "there is no evidence" linking Saddam Hussein to either the September 11th terrorist attacks, Al Qaeda, or even international terrorism as a whole. I don't see how the capture of a defeated and broken man from an eight-foot spider hole will make the United States safer. These are the types of questions you would expect our members of Congress to ask this administration inbetween their high fives.

As far as his brother is concerned. He did die in Laos. He was missing for 30 years. His brother was found and returned to his family. Asides from giving one interview where he mentioned him, I fail to see how he used him to, as you put it, "further his campaign."

So again, unfortunately, a Kerry supporter has gotten a little ahead of himself. He hates Dean, because he wants to hate Dean. Because it is easier to sit around and blame all your troubles on someone else than to look in the mirror and understand the real reasons for your problems.

Dean has not defeated John Kerry. John Kerry has defeated himself.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. a few points
The primaries and caucuses are NOT McAuliffes doing. The state parties manage this on their own butmore to the point, how does taht speak to Dean wanting McAuliffe to stop the other candidates from being, well, rivals ? Calling one's rival on things they say or do is hardly new but complaining to "dad" about it certainly is.

I think you will find that most people will agree that without the rallying point of a Hussein, the former regime's power brokers have no further chance at reestablishing their power. Seperating him fro his money eliminates any chance he could buy terror. May not be a huge thing but its not nothing.

Yes, Dr Dean's brother DID die in Southeast Asia and was nowhere to be found for 30 some years. He was not a POW nor was he MIA. He would have had to be in the military to be one of those two things and noone has suggested that he was. To claim that he was POW/MIA on a question specifically asking about military contacts. He might have chosen someone who was in the military, chosen noone or did what he did which was to fabricate. Apparantly fabrication was preferable and for what other reason than the cam;aign as the whole questionaire was intended for campaigning purposes ?

I don't hate anyone.

I am not a Kerry guy (Edwards, thank you very much).

I'm blaming noone for anything but neither do I cut anyone any slack. This process is too important for that. To ignore the continual gaffes , fabrications and outright blunders is just foolish irrespective of who you might back. It ought to have a bearing on who you back as it will certainly not be forgotten by the right.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Edit LIEberman or else this intelligent post will be locked.
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BigBigBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good post
Clark will win South Carolina.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent post.
You went out on quite a few limbs so I'm sure some will break, but the basic thrust of your argument is hard to argue with. I agree. While I think it is possible that Kerry or less likely Gephardt could nudge Clark aside with just the right momentum coming out of Iowa, I think neither of those gents have a chance this year to beat Dean. Only Clark has the combination of grassroots and mainstream appeal needed to compete with Dean. Clark can potentially prevail as a unity candidate, the others would be seen as Anti-Deans.

My only disagreement really is on the number of contests Clark has to win on Feb. 3rd. I think he might get by with fewer victories if several of the other candidates are lingering in the field, dividing up the votes. That could result in Dean winning a few with less than impressive pluralities. After Feb. 3rd, the field really will be thinned. It is hard to believe more than two alternatives to Dean could be left standing, and possibly only one (plus Sharpton who may have no reason to exit the race).
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. A real old fashioned party convention?
If no one gets a majority of delegates is it possible we will have a brokered convention like days past? Smoke-filled rooms and everything. You have to admit it more than likely no one will have enough delegates. How ugly will that be?

If Dean goes into the convention with say 35-40% and Clark has 30-35% what is going to happen? What if Lieberman goes to Boston with 25% and gives his delegates to Clark? Dean will probably lose. In fact Dean would probably lose under any scenario like this. How are we gonna finesse that one?

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I have not seen it. IMHO this race is wide open and I expect surprises.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hardly
Most political pundits state that Dean willlikely be trounced by both Bush and the Democratic Party, with an ever growing contingency of Democrats who view Deans fiscal conservatism as being too far out of line, and too unacceptable for them. This is becoming one of the largest cases of Democrats activelly organizing to oppose the frontrunner, with a number of "Anybody But Dean" movements taking shape in the Democratic Party.

One blog in the New Republic has the widest reach, and within weeks these campaigns have resulted in Deans recent request s for the DNC's protection:

This is the TNR's latest edition of this online Blog/Article:


What is Diary of a Dean-o-Phobe?


12.29.03


DEAN'S ROAD TO DAMASCUS: Last Tuesday (or so, depending on your mail carrier) TNR subscribers received Franklin Foer's masterful cover story which explained how Dean's aggressive secularism would prove perhaps his largest general election liability. Two days later, The Boston Globe reported that Dean "described himself in an interview with the Globe as a committed believer in Jesus Christ and said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South." Now that's a fast response!


http://www.tnr.com/deanophobe.mhtml


WHAT IS THE DIARY OF A DEAN-O-PHOBE?: It's not entirely clear to me why I've taken such an intense dislike to Howard Dean. Yes, I find him arrogant and frequently dishonest. Yes, I'm certain his nomination would lead to a political disaster of historic, and possibly biblical, proportions. And, yes, I'm continuously dumbfounded that a number of highly intelligent people I know have convinced themselves that his nomination is a good thing, or at least that it's not an unambiguously bad thing. But somehow the whole of my loathing for Dean is greater than the sum of its parts. So I've decided to start a blog on TNR's website to indulge that loathing.

I realize that there is a certain irony here. Earlier this year I wrote a piece for TNR that defended hatred of President Bush. (I argued that hating Bush may lead to irrationality--rooting against the capture of Saddam Hussein, or, say, nominating Howard Dean--but it's not irrational in and of itself.) But recently I'm finding that Dean hatred is crowding out Bush hatred in my mental space. It's not that I think Dean would be a worse president than Bush--he'd probably be better, although that's extremely faint praise given that Bush is the worst president of the last 80 years. Bush is like the next-door neighbor who lets his dog poop on your lawn and his kid shoot bb's at your house and who says something irritating to you every day on his way to work. Dean, on the other hand, is like the ne'er-do-well who's dating your daughter. You realize the neighbor is a worse person than the boyfriend, but the boyfriend (and the frightening prospect that he'll become your son-in-law) consumes more of your attention.

http://www.tnr.com/deanophobe.mhtml?pid=1109

There are other web sites set up by the supporters of other candidates or those who will support any other Democratic candidate but Dean.

Deans grass roots campaign is really not very impressive, and was in fact rather predictable. The only thing that gave Dean that edge, with people praising his use of the Internet for support was based on the fact that Dean had decided to start his run for the president in the late summer of 2001, 15 months before the first of any other of the candidates decided to investigate the possibility of a presidential run themselves. If Dean had not decided to run so early whoever of the other candidates decided to run first would have done pretty much the same thing, making use of the Internet in exactly the same manner as Dean has. What is most impressive about Dean is the large opposition to him by both the Democratic Party leadership, and rank and file Democrats. And a grassroots movement forming among rank and file suipportes of other candidates or any other candidate that recommends opposition to Dean to the degree of comitting to not vote for Dean if he is the nominee, but with the twist of getting more and more comittment to run a write in campaign. either writing in any other democratic candidate in the general election, but an even stronger move to draft Hillary Clinton. This same group and its members have comtted not only to attempt to draft Hillary, but have gotten a very large movement in the last month that is comitted to running a campaign to write in Hillary in the General election. The rate at which this group has gotten comittment to write in Hillary is growing at twice the rate that Deans online Internet support grew at the height of its growth.

Over the last three weeks, Deans polling in the latest CBS polls has dropped significantly, going in one week from 23 percent to 16 percent. What is more impressive is that as the "anybody but Dean" movement within the Democratic Party has grown this month, one other figure in the polls has grown faster than any of the Democratic candidates. That is those polled who selected "other" as their choice of Democratic candidate. IN the most recent CBS poll, Dean gets 16 percent, dropping as noted in one week, from 23 percent to 16 percent, while during that same week "other grew from 10 percent to 16 percent.

At the same time, no less a Democratic luminary than James Carville has stated that if Dean becomes the nominee, He will personally ask Hillary Clinton to run.

So from the Democratic side, there is enough opposition to Dean possibly result in the situation that the Democraic Leadership has pointed out may occur if Dean is the nominee, resulting in a situation similar to the Mc Govern Campaign against Nixon. Mc Governs tack inattacking the party leadership also alienated amyn of the rank and file Democrats, particularly those lifelong volunteers who go out and got people to go out and register to vote Democrat, and did all of the pavement pounding and telephone work it takes to support a candidate once the nomination process was over.


From the Republican side, Dean will easily be marginalized as a leftist by the Rove/Bush machine, and the Republicans will portray Dean not as a McGovern Figure, but as a Dukakis. Carville, when discussing Dean, and his inability to control his mouth as being a godsend to Republicans who will focus on all of his attempts to run as an anti-war leftist, and they will be able to prevent him from trying to present himself as a centrist, or even the conservative that anyone who has studied his record as governor can see that he is.
Dean had considerable support from Republicans as Governor. Deans conservatism and Republican support while governor resulted in the current state of liberal politics in Vermont. When Dean ran for Govenror in 2000 a Progressive candidate also ran, and it was the Progressive who threatened to cost Dean the election, taking ten percent of the vote away from Dean. By 2002 when Dean resigned as Governor, his conservatism had so alientate a large number of Democrats, that 45 percent of people who were previously Democrats had left the Democratic Party and joined the Progressives. The candidate who competed against Dean for Governor in 2000 decided in 2002 to set his sights lower and ran for Lt Governor. This time the Progressive Candidate too 25 percent of the vote, the Democratic candidate 33 percent, and the Republican won with 41 percent of the vote. As a result of Dean alienating large numbers of liberal democrats a situation has developed in Vermont where Democrats can no longer win election to major offices in the state, and the political situation in Vermont no mirrors the state of national politics, with Republicans in control of all branches of Government, as the left side of the political spectrum has now virtually split down the middle with Progressives being roughly 45 percent of the left voters, and Democratsabout 55 percent of the left vote. Republicans now rule divide and conquer, ruling with a minority of the population supporting a conservative platform.

Not being able to pin Dean down to a particular political bent worked well for Dean in Vermont, with no one being able to peg him as a liberal or conservative while he was campaigning. For all Deans attempts to try to move to the center, he has to keep campaigning to the left as other Democrats go after him. But while some of Deans Republican base supports his presidential bid, most of those Republicans who supported his run for Governor in 2000, also were supportintg George Bush in 2000, and for the most part, support George Bush over Howard Dean.

Dean's conservatism provided the impetus that led a large split of the liberal. progressive, and other left political support. The cracks in the Democratic Party during this presidential campaign are beginning to appear at the national level, and for all appearances. Dean is the author of this split.

With the party broken, all that may be left is for Rove/Bush to pick up the pieces.

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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It'll come down to the convention
If Dean goes in with a healthy plurality but not the majority, and its brokered so that the nomination is given to someone else, the party WILL be in pieces.

All pundits are full of crap. I've given up a long time ago trying to figure out the American electorate. Pundits are hurting our cause more than helping it. Go with the flow, let the people decide.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Well if the pundits are crap
Lokk at the polls. Back before September/October vitually all polls that included "other" as a selection for either who one would select as the nominee, or how they would vote in the general election presented the percentage of "other" with a low of 2 percent and a high of 4 percent. AS the polls begin to reflect Dean as the frontrunner, these numbers begin to clinmg, 6 percent, 7, 8, and then in the last three weeks 7 percent, 10 percent and most recently 16 percent. As the media presents and even the pundits begin to discuss the nomination of Dean as being more likely, the percentage of Democrats and independents who state that they will vote for "other" becomes higher and higher.

The polls that state that Dean is the candidate of choice also show higher figures of people who are seeemingly deciding that they will select another candidate if as polls state that Dean is most likely to become the nominee against Bush. Also the longer Dean has stayed in the frontrunner slot, the higher the percentage of Democrats who also state that they beleive that Bush will win in 2004 has grown larger. It is more likely that a borkered solution will present a better channce of holding the party together than if Dean is the nominee, which is why the DNC and the DNC have been very concerned and critical of a Dean nomination.

In many polls in which Dean is shown to be the frontrunner, he is also the candidate who against whom George Bush is seen as having the widest margin of beating withmost of these figures showing Bush trouncing Dean by 15 points.

On bit of factual information, totally unrelated to the pundits is the fact that while Dean was Governor, more and more democrats left the Democratic Party and joined the Vermont Progressive Party, and this is largely attribited by Vermont Democrats to Deans conservatism, and Dean was largely criticised by Vermont Democrats, and in particular the liberal wing of the democratic party in Vermont as being the cause of this loss. At the time the Dean was Governor of Vermont, the entire Vermont Democratic Party was becoming more and more left leaning, and even Deans own long term advisor Harlan Sylvester attributes the fact that the Republican Party did not put up any viable candidates to oppose Dean was that they felt they didnt need to as they already had Dean ( a Direct Quote by Sylvester is:

"The joke among a lot of Vermont Republicans was that they didn't need to run anyone for governor because they basically had one in office already," said Harlan Sylvester, a conservative Democratic stockbroker and longtime adviser to Dean.

(St. Petersburg Times, July 6, 2003)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/DVNS_Howard-Dean.htm)

Sylvester has advised Dean both personally and politically for thirty year< so one would suppose that the one person who has supported Dean in all his political efforts from the first day he began to run for political office, would have a rather clear picture of his friend and political collegue).

There is one major party in Vermont now, and tat is the Republican Party, while the liberal and progressive parties now consist of two parties of moderate size, the Vermont Progressive Party, and the Vermont Democratic Party) Currently this has resulted in the Republican Party having as complete control of Vermont Government as currently exists in Washington). A number of Vermont Democrats shoe held seats in the Vermont Legislature simply quit due to the fact that the head of their own party spent most of his time opposing his own party, and working to support the political agenda of the Republicans, who for the most part got all of their party's agenda passed while Dean was Governor, from taxation to cuts to welfare and other social spending, while business was given free rein, environmetal policies not enforced, and Dean actively assisting large corporations get around such policies,with corporate executives speaking glowingly of how Dean greased the wheels fo business in Vermont.

(Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm)

While Dean received a great deal of Republican support as Governor in Vermont, one cannot expect the same degree of defection of Republicans from Bush to Dean for in the General Election)

But given the direction of the polls, one can expect many democrats to either write in another candidate, or not vote at all, as many , like myself, see that choice between Bush and Dean as virtually no choice at all, given Deans fiscal policies.

Many democrats particularly long term democrats, liberal and progressives are of the belief that all policy stem from economic policy) Social policies and Social conditions stem from economics, and as far as economics goes, Dean has consistantly shown himnself to be as conservative as any Republican. His record as Governor directly mirrored Republican Fiscal policies, of favoring business interests over all other interest, and cutting social spending to balance budgets rather than raising taxes on the wealthy, which was anathema to Dean as Governor.

He also has the reputation for speaking the party traditional democratic party line when there are no issues at hand, but when their are issues or legislation directly in front of him, if it comes to the environment or cutting wide swath for business, business wins If it comes to raising taxes on the rich or cutting heath care benefits to the elderly and disabled, the rich got to hold onto their money, and those on limited incomes had them limted more by losing prescription drug bnefits, or having the cost of receiving these benefits increased)

If you accept the parts of the polls that place Dean squarely as the front runner, you must acccept the fact that Dean being in this place is also resulting in an ever growing percentage of the Democratic electorate deciding that they will vote for "other" and not Dean.

Right now, even though there is no third party candidate running, the percentage of people who are decideing to vote for other, rather tan the front runner is approaching the same percentage as the third party candidate who gave the election of 1992 to Bill Clinton by syphoning off votes from George H.W. Bush..Ross Perot, who pulled 19 percent of the vote away from Republicans, allowing Clinton to win.

Deans history as Governor, and the effects his tenure and behavior as Governor had the effect of dividing the left end of the political spectrum. Almost in half. As this campaign progresses, the figures are beginning to reflect a similar split among Democrats. For Good or ill, either Dean is loved or hated and there seems to be little middle ground. Those who are openly stating that they will select anothercandidate, write in another candidate arther than Dean are growing daily. Since September, the number of Democrats and independants who satate they will select another candidate if Dean is the nominee has grown by as much as 800 percent, depending on the polls you look at. That is a big jump. Even if this shrinks by fifty percent, there are literally a few million Democrats and Independents who will decide to not vote, or write in for someone else. With those figures, Bush easily wins in 2004.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. I'm just not sure why you insist on contradicting yourself
Do you think Dean will lose because he is too liberal or because he is too conservative?

As far as the polls. You're right, we have taken a hit for the worst. I'm sure the fact that we have had endless attacks on our frontrunner - by members of our own party - hasn't helped the situation.

Also, those same polls show Dean doing better against Bush than any other Democrat with the exception of Wesley Clark (who does about 2% better).
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. I think it is funny that the two Kerry supporters responding...
...have done so without a single constructive contribution.

The attitude of Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman and their supporters seems to be that if they can't win the nomination then to hell with everyone else.

That's what infuriates me. Everytime some Dean supporter raises the possibility of Noone but Dean, he or she gets trounced on. Called babies or worse. Yet, this group seems to have absolutely no problem with destroying the Democratic chances in 2004 by trying to stop Dean.

Reality Check: Dick Gephardt, John Kerry, and Joe Lieberman will not be the Democratic nominee for President.

If Joe Lieberman were to do it, he would have done it by now. He was the 2000 VP nominee after all. That he has stalled at 10% seems to be his fate throughout.

Gephardt, with his long experience can not get over a few realities of his own. As Democratic leader for 8 years in Congress he failed to win control of the House of Representatives. His strategy for taking back Congress in 2002 was a joke. His support for the war has destroyed any credibility on foreign policy, since he, like Kerry, opposed the war in 1991. How do you oppose the war in 1991, where the US built a coalition and got UN support because Iraq invaded another country illegally. Then turn around 12 years later and say we support this war where there was NO violation of any kind. When we were already fighting a war - against terrorism - that was incomplete? That inconsistency, I think, is at the heart of people's anger towards them. I see it as at best a lack of vision or understanding of the issue, at worse a politically motivated decision. They always make the foreign policy argument. But I think they are weak on foreign policy. Not because they don't have experience. But because they don't have any fortitude or foresight to take a stand against a war that even Richard Pearl admits was illegal.

I won't support them. I don't care if Bush wins again. I just can't. I hate them as much as I hate Bush. So what difference is there?

That is why I posted this. I'm thinking about the Democratic Party. I'm arguing that the only person who may be able to unite this party is Wesley Clark. I'm not endorsing him. I'm just making an observation. But I guess, the Kerry supporters will take any opportunity to bash Dean and ignore the merits of an argument.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. The fact is
That an ever growing number of Democrats are making the choice of voting for "other"rather than Dean. Dean simply does not reflect the political aspirations of a rather large number of people who support other candidates, whetther it is Kerry, Clark, Kucinich, or any of the candidates. Another fact, regardless of the candidate who is supported by those who do not support Dean, but another candidate is that Dean has inspred one of the largest number so of members of his own party who simnply will not vote for him based on voting on principals rather than party affiliation. There are simply several million democrats who absolutely will not support Deans fiscal conservatism. That case getting clearer as more people begin to hold an "Anybody But Dean" philosophy. This group is becoming very large, and polls show the figures that this figure in polls showing and keeping Dean in the front running position are among the largest intra party opposition statistics to have occured in presidential politics. And they did not occur in polls at the time that Dean was not the front runner.

Flat out, there are simply many more people who will not vote for Dean than would not vote for any other democratic candidate. Even Lieberman, the bane of DU does better in polls where he is out front regarding the selection of "vote for another candidate who is not among those who are running). Listening top someone discussing the Draft Hillary organization who are getting people to commit to writing Hillary in during the general election, the number of people who they have gotten to sign up to write in Hillary in the General Election was stated to have grown from 45,000 to nearly a quarter of a million in just two months. This organizations goal is to Draft Senator Clinton, and if she is not drafted, to write in for her in November of 2004. Thats a lot of votes, beoing written in against Dean.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Show me evidence of this
I follow the polls and have never seen one like what you are describing.

I think you're wrong. I think you want to believe this is true. But unfortunately for you and for Kerry it isn't.

The problem with Kerry is and has always been that he is conceited. He believes he is the one with all the right answers. So in his own mind he would beat Bush. Not a single poll show Kerry doing better against Bush than Dean. Not one. So his argument falls apart.

As for the "large number of people who vote other" well you have to ask yourself the question - why won't I support Dean?

You seem to be making the argument that Dean is too conservative. Yet your candidate - only three days ago - made the argument that Dean was more liberal than he.

Of course, I think Kerry's hair dryer was on high that morning. Because I agree with you that Dean is more conservative than Kerry. But I fail to see how a moderate Democrat can do worse than a liberal Democrat against a conservative Republican?
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Say what?
According to Kerry supporters - Dean is responsible for Earthquakes too.

Just three days ago, Kerry made the arguemetn that Dean was more liberal than he.

Now you come here and say Dean is too conservative.

That is the problem with Kerry's campaign. It isn't the media. It isn't Dean. It isn't anyone but Kerry himself.

He has no message. So with an absense of a message he has decided to become the anti-Dean candidate. All Kerry does now is attack Dean. If his attacks completely contradict it doesn't matter. It's okay to one day say that Dean is too liberal and the very next say Dean is too conservative. The consistency isn't the message. The consistency is the attack itself.

Attack early. Attack often.
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. Two big question marks:
First: The only candidates left after the first two states will be Lieberman, Clark, Edwards, and Dean. What I'm wondering is how the vote will divvy-out after Gephardt and Kerry drop from the race; in an already-messy primary race, I can't imagine those two's supporters nearly-uniformly going to one other candidates. There are many Kerry folks who like Dean; same goes for union folks supporting the Gep.

Second: I'm wondering what kind of a media-driven poll bounce Dean would get from those first two victories. If he's around 40% in the polls and then gets a bit of those two's supporters before the Feb 3 primaries, the field may be too crowded to allow an anti-Dean to emerge. Lieberman, Edwards, and Clark may all divide the anti-Dean vote. All of the candidates have big egos.. I'm skeptical as to whether or not any of those three potential anti-Deans would scuttle his own chances just to stop Dean.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. What makes you think anyone will drop out?
Its a very short, front-loaded primary. In two months most of the delegates will have been chosen.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Dupe
Edited on Wed Dec-31-03 12:00 AM by TorchesAndPitchforks
Oops.
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. I don't think WA state is even having a primary.
I believe they cancelled it. I could be wrong.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. WA will have a caucus only this year
I think they said it was mostly due to state budget constraints...
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CoffeePlease2004 Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. Primary doesn't count in Washington State
Washington is getting rid of the Primary because it doesn't do anything and they are having budget problem. It is just a beauty contest. The Caucus is what determines the delegates.

Dean, Clark and Kerry is the order in Washington. The Oregon, Idaho, and Montana caucuses and primaries come to late and are too small to make a deterimining factor in the nomination process.

If Clark steps it up in Washington and Kerry drops it is possible for Clark to match Dean or come close to Dean. Eastern and Middle Washington could easily go Clark, especially with the huge Military base in Spokane, the states second largest city.

Clark could take Oregon, but it is not really a factor that late in the game and would take a great of time and money.

Washington will determine the outcome of the Northwest. But all this will be highly overshawdowed by the results of California.

Mike
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. One flaw. Clark can't stop Dean unless he has a tag team of
sacrificial Dean bashers letting him take the high road while Dean takes the flack.

The best thing for Clark would be if Gep AND Kerry somehow stay in the race for awhile -- getting more and more desperate with their attacks on Dean. The constant attacks on Dean will doom Gep & Kerry, but they'll help Clark.

Without them, I just don't think Clark's a skilled enough politician to even come close to pulling it off.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
23. Great post, interesting analysis, but
you don't seriously think Clark will win in Kansas? I'm in Kansas and I can tell you that the Dean people here are VERY well organized. This is a caucus state, for what that's worth.

I also think that the nominee will absolutely come out of the primaries and caucuses. The idea there will be a brokered convention is pure fantasy.

Just my opinion.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. Kerry Refused to Respond to Dean Attacks for 1 year. Clinton backs Clark

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. What were these attacks people say Dean made of Kerry?
I don't have a problem with tough questions. I don't remember Dean ever "attacking" Kerry. Perhaps you can provide some examples. But Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt have essentially turned their campaigns into anti-Dean campaigns - rather than campaigns to secure the nomination for themselves. There is a big difference.

I don't remember Dean ever running an anti-Kerry campaign. Or making personal attacks against him or his supporters. He perhaps highlighted the differences between them, which according to Kerry supporters is the same thing as personal attacks.

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