Kerry supporter raise your hand if you're sick of being called names.

[blm]

Or if you're sick of those who never bothered to research all the candidates but wrongly declare Kerry is not much different than Bush.

Or if you're sick of those who never paid attention to Kerry or his progressive policy positions over the last 30 years, now claim that he stole them from a career centrist governor who only tacked left last year.

Or if you're sick of people who claim you don't vote your conscience if you support Kerry.

Or if you're sick of people who claim that Kerry has no spine and never stood up to the Republicans. (These same people never heard of BCCI, IranContra, CIA drugrunning and the illegal wars in Central America that were all exposed by Kerry. They may never have heard of Nixon, Reagan or Bush Sr., either.)

Or if you're hoping you can carry on with the task of getting Bush out of office while fools with no knowledge of the last 30 years post threads implying THEY alone are the guardians of progressive values and you are just jumping on a bandwagon.

[ronnykmarshall]

Here!

[JohnKleeb]

1. yes this is what I talked about last night

Hell why Kerry was my second choice for so long is that I found it like I could be idealistic and pragmatic and support him at the same time. He's a liberal with a good chance, the best thing I could have after Kucinich who I btw pledged 100 dollars for, Kerry will get more soon too.

[ronnykmarshall]

3. Trying to donate monthly

If you do donate again, use my link in my sig line.

[JohnKleeb]

6. thanks ronny but its hard to being I dont have a credit card or checking

account. BTW the DK people said on the phone, they will support the nominee, they just want to get progressive policy in there on Iraq, NAFTA, and Kerry wasnt trashed. Just letting you all know. I love both of these guys.

[displacedtexan]

2. Present!

Raising my hand here. At least, people aren't laughing in my face any more.

[liberalnurse]

4. Is this what kerry means when he says.....

"Stop crying in your tea cup"? I sense it is.....I'm trying to follow kerrys wisdom and insightful lead.

[blm]

10. Or if you're sick of internet legends being spread by those

who doggedly ignore the actual context of the quote.

[ronnykmarshall]

12. Touche!

:toast:

[JohnKleeb]

13. if he really meant what they say he meant

Tell me good people why would Kendrick Meek support him. His mother was one of the bravest souls down there trying to help out Gore.

[emulatorloo]

31. Out of Context - Dems Cheered him - Please Read This Thread, Liberal Nurse

Thanks in advance

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=190855

---------------------------------------------------
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/5635691.htm

"Presidential candidate John Kerry attempted Monday to light a fire under a lethargic Democratic Party that he said had gotten lazy the past few years.
"Addressing party activists at a luncheon at Claflin University, the Massachusetts senator urged the party faithful to go out and fight for their beliefs.

"'The way to do it is to get mad, to get angry, to get active, to get out there and get off your ...,' he said to prolonged cheers, without completing the thought. 'Get going.'

"Kerry's sermonette was prompted by a questioner dismayed by the outcome of the 2000 presidential election won by George W. Bush and the drubbing Democrats took in the 2002 election. "Bush lost the popular vote to Democrat Al Gore, but captured the electoral vote after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the GOP's favor by denying a vote recount in Florida.

"'Just because the Supreme Court made the wrong decision in 2000 doesn't mean we have to live with it for the next six years,' Kerry said."
>>>>>>

[wryter2000]

5. Waving

I'm a Dean support who's tired of the smears against Kerry.

[tom_paine]

7. Clark Supporter weighing in here: Go Kerry!

Full disclosure...I shifted my support and my $$$ to Kerry as soon as Clark dropped out. I didn't wait for Clark to come out and say anything (though he did, of course) to determine my course of action.

Just a little pre-emptive flame retardant...

[BeatleBoot]

8. Heyyo!!!!

Reporting for duty.......... sir!

[Uzybone]

9. Sick of hearing how the media made me

support Kerry. Sick of the sniper fire that seems to come from our side of the lines.

[Raya]

11. Quite frankly, the arrogant ignorance is infuriating

[XanaDUer]

14. It's bothersome at times...

but I view it as embittered sour grapes.

Hell, some of it is downright hilarious.

:hi:

SEE! A copycat thread of yours has already begun!

[Darth_Kitten]

71. Come on, martrydom doesn't play well.

Why are some Kerry supporters so touchy now? Come on guys, victimhood isn't attractive. :D

I think some Kerry supporters (I'm one now I guess) should really look closely at how they are coming across. Kerry is getting a bad rap because of how you are acting.

[sistersofmercy]

15. Yes, it does get tiresome

I generally do not bother with replying to such posts, they'll drop faster without added responses.

[blm]

18. I held off for the past month but some people are playing ugly again.

They should be called on it, especially when they spread disinformation to make their point.

[sistersofmercy]

22. That is true

but the majority are just silliness imo, just trying to rile others.

[displacedtexan]

16. It's heating up around here... AGAIN!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x449801


One more week!
(The delegate majority will be won!)

[XanaDUer]

17. Yup.

I tend to ignore those posts...after the flood of Skull and Bones posts here, I figured, fuck it.

DU is not the world.

:hi:

[ronnykmarshall]

19. What's it gonna be like this summer?

Are Kerry attacks still going to fly?


I swear, some people are more happy when they have something to complain about.

[XanaDUer]

37. Let them fly away...

If it makes 'em happy, and gives them something to do...

[Darth_Kitten]

72. I'm a Kerry supporter and how I feel is important......

it's paramount and no one has the right to critique my candidate!!!!!!!!! :eyes: come on everybody.....I don't see anybody being so innocent around here.


Yeah, things are going to fly.....


Kerry/Dean 2004 ?? :D

[sangh0]

20. Not sick of it. I love it. Bring it on!!

After years of arguing with Freepers I learned something relevant - They only scream when you hurt them

[wyldwolf]

21. BLM, I would love to see your research on BCCI, IranContra, etc.

..as they apply to Kerry.

It might also be worth a post to show Kerry's true liberal accomplishments for the factually challenged on DU.

[DrFunkenstein]

51. How's This?

We all have heard John Poindexter's name. He's the guy that got canned for the terrorist gambling brainfart a few months back:

WASHINGTON -- Retired Adm. John Poindexter will resign his position at the Pentagon after the uproar over a research project he was overseeing that included a kind of futures market on political violence in the Middle East.

In the 1980s Poindexter was national security adviser to President Reagan. He was a key figure in the 1980s Iran-Contra scandal.

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-terror-market-poindex...

An old Eric Alterman article provides a little background on Poindexter, who is also responsible for DARPA's Total Information Awareness brainfart:

"Oh, and guess who's in charge? John Poindexter, the man who, during the Reagan/Bush administration, claimed under oath that he approved the payoff to the Contras of the profits garnered from selling missiles to terrorists without even so much as mentioning it to President Reagan. He did this, he said at the time, 'on my own authority' in order to 'preserve deniability.'

"But Poindexter could not produce a single piece of paper to support this alarming contention. He also admitted to discussing the implementation of a 'fall guy' plan should the program ever become public, and repeatedly misled Congress about his own involvement in order to hide the illegal program. While being questioned during the Iran-Contra hearings, Poindexter helpfully explained: 'I didn't want Congress to know the details of how we were implementing the president's policy.' To prevent this, he was willing, as he put it, to substitute an 'untruth,' which he did repeatedly."

http://hughhewitt.com/past_news_links_11.02/11.20.02.Kerry_Rises.html

Moving right along memory lane:

Oliver North, who met with Noriega's representative, described the meeting in an August 23, 1986 e-mail message to Reagan national security advisor John Poindexter. "You will recall that over the years Manuel Noriega in Panama and I have developed a fairly good relationship," North writes before explaining Noriega's proposal. If U.S. officials can "help clean up his image" and lift the ban on arms sales to the Panamanian Defense Force, Noriega will "'take care of' the Sandinista leadership for us."

North tells Poindexter that Noriega can assist with sabotage against the Sandinistas, and suggests paying Noriega a million dollars -- from "Project Democracy" funds raised from the sale of U.S. arms to Iran -- for the Panamanian leader's help in destroying Nicaraguan economic installations.

The same day Poindexter responds with an e-mail message authorizing North to meet secretly with Noriega. "I have nothing against him other than his illegal activities," Poindexter writes.

...

In 1987, the Senate Subcommittee on Narcotics, Terrorism and International Operations, led by Senator John Kerry, launched an investigation of allegations arising from reports, more than a decade ago, of contra-drug links. One of the incidents examined by the "Kerry Committee" was an effort to divert drug money from a counternarcotics operation to the contra war.

On July 28, 1988, two DEA agents testified before the House Subcommittee on Crime regarding a sting operation conducted against the Medellin Cartel. The two agents said that in 1985 Oliver North had wanted to take $1.5 million in Cartel bribe money that was carried by a DEA informant and give it to the contras. DEA officials rejected the idea.

The Kerry Committee report concluded that "senior U.S. policy makers were not immune to the idea that drug money was a perfect solution to the Contras' funding problems."

...

Reagan administration officials interceded on behalf of José Bueso Rosa, a Honduran general who was heavily involved with the CIA's contra operations and faced trial for his role in a massive drug shipment to the United States. In 1984 Bueso and co-conspirators hatched a plan to assassinate Honduran President Roberto Suazo Córdoba; the plot was to be financed with a $40 million cocaine shipment to the United States, which the FBI intercepted in Florida.

Declassified e-mail messages indicate that Oliver North led the behind-the-scenes effort to seek leniency for Bueso . The messages record the efforts of U.S. officials to "cabal quietly" to get Bueso off the hook, be it by "pardon, clemency, deportation, reduced sentence." Eventually they succeeded in getting Bueso a short sentence in "Club Fed," a white collar prison in Florida.

The Kerry Committee report reviewed the case, and noted that the man Reagan officials aided was involved in a conspiracy that the Justice Department deemed the "most significant case of narco-terrorism yet discovered."

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm

EVEN BEFORE THE joint Iran-Contra committees were formed, three other committees were already examining charges that Lt. Col. Oliver North's secret contra arms network was funded by illegal drug sales with the knowledge of the Central Intelligence Agency.

By far the most aggressive of the three congressional committees was John Kerry's Subcommittee on Narcotics, Terrorism and International Operations. His aggressiveness paid off, as Kerry was finding significant evidence of contra-connected drug smuggling.

BEFORE KERRY WENT public with his findings, he had attempted to get the Justice Department to act on what he considered compelling evidence of U.S. involvement in illegal activities including contra drug trafficking. On September 26, 1986, Kerry met with Assistant U.S. Attorney William Weld, the head of the Justice Department's criminal division.

Kerry handed Weld an 11-page "proffer," a sworn statement from FBI informant Wanda Palacio that directly implicated the CIA in drug trafficking. According to the minutes, Kerry asked Weld to read the statement and left the room. According to Winer, who stayed in the room with Weld, he "read about a half page and chuckled. I asked him why. He said, 'This isn't the first time today I've seen allegations about CIA agents' involvement in drugs.'

Weld never acted on the Palacio statement or any other evidence gathered by Kerry.

According to former Kerry committee counsel Jack Blum's recent testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee, Weld not only did not investigate but put up an "absolute stone wall" between the Justice Department and the Kerry investigation. "There were stalls, there were refusals to talk to us, refusals to turn over data...Weld put a very serious block on any effort to get information."

...

The techniques of cover-up are old and familiar. For the CIA-contra-cocaine connection they include the narrowly phrased question, the blind inspector, "national security," selective prosecution, and sympathetic officials and media "assets."

It may be useful to examine how public officials and covert operators collaborate to suppress such serious information.

Congressional leaders announced an investigation into North's National Security Council network by the newly formed Iran-Contra Select Committee...But from its inception, it was clear this investigation would be limited and sanitized.

For starters, the Democratic chairs of both committees--Sen. Daniel Inoue and Rep. Lee Hamilton--were falling over one another to assure the public this would not be "another Watergate." As Inoue told reporters, the country "isn't ready" for that. Having thus declared their limits, they turned to an investigator who could limit their vision.

http://www.flashpoints.net/anatomyOACoverup.htm

When congressional leaders chose the members of the elite Iran-contra committee, Kerry was left off. Those selected were consensus-politicians, not bomb-throwers.

The feeling among a disappointed Kerry and his staff was that the committee members were chosen to put a lid on things. "He was told early on they were not going to put him on it," Winer recalls. "He was too junior and too controversial . . .. They were concerned about the survival of the republic."

Even some Democrats "thought John was a little hotter than they would like," says Rosenblith.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml

Note 1: William Weld would later run a ferocious, but fruitless battle for Kerry's Senate seat in 1996.

Note 2: John Poindexter is only one of the key Iran-Contra figures to make their way into the Bush administration. Let us not forget Eliot Abrams, convicted for lying to Congress under oath, only to be pardoned by Bush Sr. and hired by his son, the human memory hole.

The historical exchange between Kerry and Abrams:

Elliott Abrams: "I can say that while I have been assistant secretary, which is about 15 months, we have not received a dime from a foreign government, not a dime, from any foreign government."

Senator Kerry: " `We' being who?"

Abrams: "The United States."

Senator Kerry: "How about the contras?"

Abrams: "I don't know. But not that I am aware of and not through us. The thing is, I think I would know about it because if they went to a foreign government, a foreign government would want credit for helping the contras and they would come to us to say you want us to do this, do you, and I would know about that."

This testimony, and similar statements to a House committee, would result in Abrams pleading guilty to charges of withholding information from Congress.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml

[nolabels]

63. Time to clean out from underneath the rug John

Nah, with or without, it will get done, no problem

[blm]

98. Thanks, Octafish.

It may be time for another one of your BCCI - IranContra threads.

Some people didn't pay attention the first few times. They may be ready to learn more now that Kerry will be the nominee.

[Rowdyboy]

23. Just got back from voting from Wes Clark!

in a meaningless primary. Now the primary is over, my conscience is clear, and I can officially say I'm on the Kerry bandwagon 100%.

Mostly, I'm sick of the relentless whining. Its a primary season. Only one person wins. My candidate lost. Tough shit, but thats how it goes. Better luck next time.

[Dr Fate]

91. Clark endorsing Kerry makes it sweet though...

I was a Clarkie too- still am, I guess.

I hope he is VP or high profile in the cabinet.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. you just do not get it blm

Or if you're sick of those who never bothered to research all the candidates but wrongly declare Kerry is not much different than Bush.

Or if you're sick of those who never paid attention to Kerry or his progressive policy positions over the last 30 years, now claim that he stole them from a career centrist governor who only tacked left last year.

(what he did 20 years ago doesn't change what he did in the last three years. There is hope though, since he has stolen Dean's stump speech, we can hope he means to stick to at least some of it. Dean never tacked left. He is exactly who he has always been and that is like most of us, liberal, centrist and moderate depending on the issues. You need to let go of the meaningless Left/right dichotomy.)

Or if you're sick of people who claim you don't vote your conscience if you support Kerry.
((no, polls right here on DU show that people are voting for Kerry because they think he can beat bush as opposed to actually believing in his ideas))

Or if you're sick of people who claim that Kerry has no spine and never stood up to the Republicans. These same people never heard of BCCI, IranContra, CIA drugrunning and the illegal wars in Central America that were all exposed by Kerry. They may never have heard of Nixon, Reagan or Bush Sr., either.
((So did anyone go to jail or resign over any of those illegal activities? Or did they just hold lots of hearings and slap the people involved on the wrist? Kerry seems to specialize in toothless public hearings. It doesn't piss off the republicans so much when they don't get punished.))

Or if you're hoping you can carry on with the task of getting Bush out of office while fools with no knowledge of the last 30 years post threads implying THEY alone are the guardians of progressive values and you are just jumping on a bandwagon.
((we all remember the last 30 years, don't kid yourself. Why are you not out getting Kerry elected? Surely that would be more productive than complaining on DU.))

[blm]

30. Gee, maybe Gore should have helped Kerry out on those investigations

instead of upstaging them by going after dirty song lyrics. BTW...Kerry did the investigating and exposing and FORCED those hearings through while senior Democratic Senators were willing to allow those hearings to slide.

Only someone completely ignorant of how those hearings went down could blame Kerry.

BTW...there were indictments...Ollie North, Elliot Abrams, Caspar Weinberger, et al....and there were plenty of pardons handed out by Poppy Bush to prevent trials. Blame Kerry. Fucking SAD.

[sangh0]

34. Some will do anything to avoid blaming Bush*

After all, the Iraq invasion was all Kerry's fault, right?

[polpilot]

40. Bottom line: Can a pro-war, pro-establishment, pro-military demo win

against a pro-war, pro-establishment, pro-military Repub incumbent with $100 million...place your bets...I'd suggest SMALL bets.

[WilliamPitt]

86. When in modern history has any other kind of Democrat won?

Adlai Stevenson? Lost. Etc.

P.S. Money does not equal brains.

[WilliamPitt]

25. I remember

many claims around here that Kerry somehow 'cheated' his way out of Vietnam, that his three wounds were not severe, that he did not earn his medals. I remember this, and the giggle at people who are shocked - SHOCKED - when Kerry supporters start slapping back.

[sistersofmercy]

28. Will

You make me laugh, you are so clever.
Thanks for the giggle :D

[XanaDUer]

38. They did seem rather shocked...

See, if you are aggressive from the get go, and used to riding roughshod over others, it DOES get to be a bit of a shock when they start biting you back.

Oh, well.

[mac56]

80. "We liked it better when you didn't fight back."

nm

[Dr Fate]

92. I see this too- what do they expect- a smile & a handshake?

I've seen posters try to even say Kerry is Nazi-A NAZI!!!!

But then I get "Alerted" for calling posters who openly oppose Democrats "Bush enablers"...

DEM bashers- you will get no " note of congragulations" or whatever you think you are going to get out of me.

[Zynx]

26. Since I am now a Kerry supporter, Yeah I'm not liking it.

Lord knows I fought with Kerry supporters in the past, but that time is behind us.

[sandnsea]

27. I wuv you BLM

You tell it sister!

:loveya:

[Exgeneral]

29. Sorry, I'm not playing

Ham sandwich gets my support. Anonymous posters on an internet BB, I don't owe you jack.

But does this mean Kerry will turn down the Dean money we are gathering for him?

[blm]

32. Maybe some Dean supporters can tell other Dean supporters that

Kerry supporters are not just "assholes" ..."sheep"...or "bandwagon jumpers"....etc

[ronnykmarshall]

33. Oh blm,

you "just don't get it"! :eyes:


<sarcasm off>

[Forkboy]

35. ..

:nopity:

[sangh0]

36. fishbait

.

[XanaDUer]

39. Oh poop!

Poop, poop, poop.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[curse10]

41. I've grown used to it

It's been going on about a year now.

[RichM]

42. This is a ridiculous distortion of Kerry's role in IranContra, etc.

To say that Kerry "exposed" these things is very far from the truth. It's true that he investigated them, & that he knows about them. But that is a far cry from "exposing" them.

Even before one gets to looking at the specifics of Kerry's role, the basic fact is that these different scandals were NEVER really exposed, not by Kerry, nor by anyone else. Most Americans know almost nothing about them, and there never was any cultural acknowledgement about exactly who was culpable for what.

Let's take IranContra (the best known, yet still hardly known at all, as regards the real truths of the matter). Everyone remembers that there was a big fuss about it, that there were hearings. There was handsome Ollie North testifying in his cute uniform; there was Fawn Hall. When the whole thing was concluded, weeks of testimony & tons of transcripts, it was almost a complete whitewash of the Reagan administration's responsibility for criminal actions.

Given that the end product was a whitewash, it is ABSURD to talk about ANYONE as having "exposed" major truths about the IranContra events -- because these things were NEVER really exposed. To the limited extent that there were heroes, the heroes were a few journalists & writers - not political figures. And the accounts of these writers were NEVER permitted in mainstream discourse. To this day, there is no awareness at all among 99% of our population, of the horrible crimes our government committed in Central America.

In August 1988, a year after the hearings, the Senate passed something called "The Byrd Amendment," authorizing more aid to the contras. Kerry voted for it, along with many other leading liberal Democrats. This is not the vote of someone who believed that the US was illegally terrorizing Nicaragua. On the contrary, it's a vote of someone quite willing to go along with the terrorizing.

[blm]

45. That's YOUR prism. Many of us DO know more about it and thanks to Kerry

who went against most of his party to push the investigations through, whether people like you want to acknowledge it or not.

You revisionists would be laughable if you weren't a danger to more gullible minds who might think your shrugs are legitimate.

[RichM]

46. Okay, I call your bluff. Please respond to the following challenge --

I challenge you to sketch out in a paragraph or so Kerry's basic position, in the late 80's, on what US policy should be towards Nicaragua.

Here is the gist of what a principled position would have been. (There were zero US politicians of either party that took this position, or anything close to it.) --

"The Sandinista government of Nicaragua is a legitimate government of that nation. The Sandinistas present no serious threat whatever to the US. They are not preparing to attack us, they are not going to invade Texas, they are not capable of harming us, & all such talk is completely baseless and foolish.

(Note to those who don't remember this: in the mid 80's, there was a huge panic in the US about the Sandinistas getting MIG fighters from the USSR. This story turned out to be as true as the existence of "WMD" in Iraq.)

(Continuing: )The Sandinistas, furthermore, are a GREAT improvement over the former Nicaraguan regime, headed by Senor Somoza, a brutal tyrant whom the US, to its everlasting disgrace and shame, supported for many years. The Sandinistas have introduced MANY reforms aimed at improving health care, education, literacy, democratic participation, & land reform. Therefore, it is a terrible crime, on the part of the US government, to try to overthrow this government by violence and subversion. Therefore, we should LEAVE the Sandinistas alone (if not congratulate them on their achievements), and STOP ALL SUPPORT to the Contras, who are mainly murderers and drug-runners."

My recollection of Kerry's position is that it went something like this (paraphrasing, of course - and this is just off the top of my head, from hazy memory) -- "Well, I don't want to overthrow the Sandinistas quite as badly as the Reaganites do, but I'll go along with it." He didn't really oppose the idea that the Sandinistas were a serious threat to invade Texas. (Note: this is similar to his recent acceptance of the idea that Saddam was "a threat to the US.") He didn't say a word in defense of the Sandinistas. He knew the Contras were murderers and drug runners, but only pushed the drug-runner angle, and only to a limited extent. It NEVER became common knowledge or a front-page story. It died, the same way all rightwing scandals die. (This was not Kerry's fault, but pretending that he "exposed the truth" is dishonest, because the truth was NEVER really exposed.)

Further: Robert Parry, who was one of the journalist-heroes of the Central American wars, mentions Kerry's investigations a fair amount in his book "Lost History." He does not particularly criticize him, nor does he present Kerry as any heroic crusader for the truth.

In sum, I think Kerry was a typical liberal senator in 1988, as regards Nicaraguan policy. That means, he was not in any sense a hero, he took no big risks or controversial positions (nothing like Byrd on Iraq, for example); he knew a lot of the truth but was content to keep a lot of it quiet. He went along with the dominant ideas of the time: that the Sandinistas were Communist demons, and had to be stopped. He was more dovish than most senators, but this still meant going along with support for the Contras. He voted for at least some important measures authorizing continued support for the Contras (though there were many such votes, & I don't pretend to have any tabulation of them in front of me).

Now, what is your recollection?

[sangha]

48. LOL! You're trying to distract

The issue at hand is Kerry's role in exposing these crimes. To put in simple terms, without the subpeona power of a Congressional committee, and the threat of prosecution for perjury when giving testimony under oath, there would have been very little to investigate because no one talks unless they have to. As any prosecutor knows, to investigate is to expose.

[rdfi-defi]

59. once again, a legit topic gets ignored

good post rich

[RichM]

62. blm - Do you have any intention of replying to this politely-worded query?

I'm giving you an opportunity here to back up your claims about Kerry's concrete achievements, regarding policy towards Nicaragua in the '80's. It's beginning to look as though you just can't do it.

[MessiahRp]

66. If you have access to the TIME archives it mentions

te Iran Contra ordeal and how Kerry helped blow the whistle on it but was left off the resulting commission because of other Senators...

Here's the article. I actually have the magazine (but no access to the archives) so forgive me for reprinting it here myself by retyping the whole thing and linking to the archive article which you need a subscription to get.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101040209-586172,00.html

From KERRY'S RECORD (Feb. 9. 2004, TIME)
by Nancy Gibbs and Douglas Waller

"Within weeks of his arrival in the Senate in early 1985, when he was still learning where the bathrooms were and how to make his way around the cavernous Russell Senate Office Building, Kerry got a tip from a Vietnam veteran that the Reagan Administration was illegally providing aid to the contra rebels, circumventing a congressional ban. Within weeks he was on a plane to Nicaragua with another freshman Senator, Tom Harkin, for a 36-hour fact finding trip. Secretary of State George Shultz accused the rookies of being "used" by the Managua regime. "It was a very painful time for us," recalls Jonathan Winer, Kerry's general counsel at the time. But that did not stop Kerry from spending the next 18 months trying to discover what White House aide Oliver North was up to in Central America.

Kerry and North were both sons of Vietnam, both winners of Bronze and Silver Stars and the Purple Heart (three for Kerry, two for North). But North viewed Vietnam as an honorable crusade against communism, and aiding the Nicaraguan contras as the next chapter in that fight. Kerry, for his part, had no tolerance for deception in pursuit of that goal. Kerry boasts on the campaign trail that he "led the fight to expose Oliver North and his private aid network," which is true up to a point. But "he wasn't the only one blowing the whistle," says William LeoGrande, dean of the School of Public Affairs at American University, who was tracking the issue at the time.

Once the entire arms-for-hostages scheme unraveled, it became clear there would have to be a full, formal Iran-contra investigation. But Kerry was kept off the resulting panel. His high profile and relentless digging had made him a little too radioactive by that time. As a consolation prize he was given the chairmanship of the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations, which led to the next wave of investigations into Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega's drug trafficking, and money laundering through the Middle Eastern Bank of Credit and Commerce International."

I hope retyping that out for you helps you in your quest to find out more about JK. :)

Rp

[sangha]

67. You are misrepresenting what blm said

She did not say anything about Kerry having an effect on policy towards Nicaragua. She said that Kerry exposed criminal activity.

[blm]

83. They don't care. They change the premise because they must validate their

irrational hatred for Kerry one way or another.

Regrettable.

[blm]

82. Robert Parry is a JOURNALIST and would never treat any figure heroically.

No real journalist would.

But, telling the story straight doesn't detract from what Kerry did. We had no idea back then the extent of evil in the BFEE. Now that we know, it is even more remarkable what Kerry accomplished against such ruthless opposition and with little reinforcement from his own party.

BTW, Rich...you refuse to even acknowledge that Kerry spearheaded the effort. Instead you want to twist away at one part or another and distract from the WHOLE picture.

You can deny that Kerry's efforts accomplished anything till the cows come home if it makes you feel better about hating Kerry, but your own post proves you are wrong. If Kerry hadn't really done anything, then why did Robert Parry write so much about his investigations and efforts as a basis for his own work? After all, Parry is not the type of journalist to exaggerate or make heros out of anyone.

[RichM]

85. This doesn't remotely meet the challenge.

No one is denying that Kerry led an investigation. No one says that Kerry "did nothing." (Even the Warren Commission could not be accused of "doing nothing." Justice Warren also "spearheaded" an investigation.)

Rather, the important questions are: 1) how far did he go to make important truths about US policy in Central America known to the public, and 2) in what way did he act to courageously oppose the Reaganite policy of waging an immoral illegal war against the Sandinistas?

The answers are: to a limited extent, he helped make it known that the contras were involved in drug-running. On the second point, he basically did not oppose the contra war - in fact, he went along with it, and didn't even try to challenge its ideological foundations. He voted for the Byrd Amendment to keep supplying the contras, a year after the Iran-Contra hearings.

Your remark about Robt Parry involves a distortion. No one said that Parry wrote "so much" about (Kerry's) investigations. I said Parry made "a fair amount" of reference to it. This is for the same reason that JFK assassination researchers need to make reference to the Warren Commission. It hardly implies that the work of the commission can be regarded as a great break-through for truth.

I do not have a particularly negative impression of Kerry's investigation. (I think it revealed SOME truths about the contras.) What I object to, are your grotesquely exaggerated claims for it.

[G_j]

87. one thing I have struggled to understand

you say, "We had no idea back then the extent of evil in the BFEE. Now
that we know, it is even more remarkable what Kerry accomplished against
such ruthless opposition and with little reinforcement from his own
party"

fair enough, though anyone who lived in NY at the time and listened to
"Contra-Gate" every morning on WBAI was getting a pretty good idea of
just how big the iceberg was. I believe it was hosted by Robert Knight.
I've searched the net for transcripts from that show, but have not been
able to find any (if anyone knows how to find them, please let me know) Listening to that show along side of watching the Iran/Contra hearings really opened my eyes. I was hearing two different stories. Over and over I heard guests on "Contra-Gate" say that it all lead back to VP Bush. There were many witnesses to drug running on the show, some who later had "accidents".

>Anyway, After all that was revealed through that period, why wasn't
Kerry questioning GW's motives on his "war on terror" at the top of his lungs?
Consider all the Iran/Contra players that were back in the game:

A BIGGER, BADDER SEQUEL TO IRAN-CONTRA

Jim Lobe, AlterNet, August 13, 2003


Just like Ollie North and his cohorts, a small network of officials are pursuing a covert foreign policy agenda -- except their aims are vastly more ambitious.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16597

The specter of the Iran-Contra affair is haunting Washington. Some of the people and countries are the same, and so are the methods ? particularly the pursuit by a network of well-placed individuals of a covert, parallel foreign policy that is at odds with official policy.
Boiled down to its essentials, the Iran-Contra affair was about a small group of officials based in the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that ran an "off-the-books" operation to secretly sell arms to Iran in exchange for hostages. The picture being painted by various insider sources in the media suggests a similar but far more ambitious scheme at work.

Taken collectively, what these officials describe and what is already on the public record suggests the existence of a disciplined network of zealous, like-minded individuals. Centered in Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith's office and around Richard Perle in the Defense Policy Board in the Pentagon, this exclusive group of officials operates under the aegis of Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney.

This network includes high-level political appointees, such as Undersecretary of State John Bolton, who are scattered around several other key bureaucracies, notably in the State Department, the NSC staff, and most importantly, in Cheney's office.
...more..


I guess I'm just wondering if Kerry gave up the fight at some point.
I remembered him as being the most outspoken Congressman at the time of Iran/Contra. I'm not sure what exactly happened but in the end America missed it's chance to root out the "dark government".
Joe Bidden and Henry Hyde among others succesfully white washed the whole affair.

I greatly admired Kerry for he seemed to be one of the best we had, and actually had some personal correspondence with him, as I was involved in Native American rights issues at the time and he was one of the few that were honestly listening. I still feel a great deal of gratitude to him, though I was scratching my head over his lack of resistance to Bush's power plays.

:shrug:

[G_j]

95. well hey

I was just reading some of Kerry's recent comments. I have to say I am very pleased that he is hitting hard. Good to see that spark.
Now if he would dump Rand Beers I'd be absolutely thrilled!
(I still have a ways to go on foreign policy)

[blm]

100. I think that will be part of the later campaign.

I have no doubt it will be brought up at the most opportune time - when the American people are REALLY paying attention and when it will most damage Bush.

[info being]

103. Exactly. If it was exposed we'd know about it.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

43. Here! Yes, we should research Mr. Kerry and understand his...

progressive voting record instead of attacking him like a bunch of FReepers.

[bigtree]

47. Most of the attacks come from folks who wake up and think no one remembers

their snarky posts. And they want followers. They feed off of the negativity they get in return for their factless slams.

I am a lifelong Democrat. I am not the least bit naive at 43. I have fought for progressive values all of my life with no punches pulled, but I advocate and support pragmatic, winnable national campaigns. I have come to understand that some here are not so concerned with winning the general election as they are with furthering their zealous crusade.

[JI7]

49. yeah blm

many of us who supported kerry for a long time do refer to ourselves as progressives, liberals, etc. and many who support john kerry did organize grassroots support for him. the firefighters supported him because he was the best candidate, stayed with him and strongly kept supporting him even when he was down in the polls because they saw him as the best candidate. it took kerry's surprise iowa win to finally get notice. but he still won iowa which is most based on grassroots and personal contact with voters. i remember the media kept asking kerry just days before iowa caucuses about his low poll numbers, never discussing issues or how he is doing with the people in iowa, but just low p oll numbers. but i watch cspan and saw many events with various candidates and john kerry was THE BEST when it came to answering the people's questions directly.

[UTUSN]

50. Yep, I Wonder How "the Most Lib Senator" Can't Be Progressive Enough n/t

[mitchum]

52. Both hands raised

[BinkieGirl]

53. Enough!

Enough with the infighting!

With friends like these we don't need the Republicans and that goes for ALL sides.

Stop baiting, stop responding. Just stop.

[Octafish]

54. What blm said.

And thank you for putting it so kindly, blm! As always, you take the high road.

People like me, OTOH, are more geared toward taking the other road, perhaps not the one most traveled, but the one that causes hurt.

We both, as have most of our colleagues on DU and throughout our virtual and real communities, want the same thing. The removal of the Bush Organized Crime Family, and all their minions, from power.



May Justice be served.

May God have mercy on their souls.

[cosmokramer]

55. Clark supporter for Kerry/Clark or Clark in there somewhere...

I am sick of the Edwards and Dean people constantly attacking the Clark and Kerry people.

Same old story time and time again.

It seems the best relationships have overall been between the Clark and Kerry supporters--we at least have greater respect for one another. Very 'Band of Brothers'- ish.

Seems the non-FP experience candidates think that FP exp. doesn't matter, and those of us who DO believe it matters are with Kerry (and formerly Clark) for all the wrong reasons in their eyes. Difference is, we are right, and the electorate will prove that in November.

Viva la Kerry! (and hopefully Clark, somewhere) :)

[NNN0LHI]

56. Nah. Its kind of the stick and stones thing n/t

[mountainvue]

57. Check.

All of the above. I have a Dean supporter on another board throwing as much mud at JFK as possible all the while telling me that another four years of Bush won't be so bad. He's used every argument in your post and then some. It's almost like they want him to lose just out of spite.

[regnaD kciN]

58. Personally, I'm sick of Kerry supporter's constant whining...

...I mean, my God, you people could serve as the textbook definition of "sore winners."

:eyes:

[mountainvue]

60. Sorry, you're on the worng thread.

Your thread is right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=449801

[flaminbats]

74. dat hurt my feelings....

I hate namecalling! :cry:

[JohnKleeb]

64. maybe if you guys didnt snoop as low to attack the man's wife

I didnt feel all to happy about Dean but I tried my best to accept him, and believe me that was hard for me.

[tinanator]

61. get over it

get over Selection 2000, the Patriot Act, IWR and those pathetic WMD claims that could only fool the complicit(oh I'll watch the "debates" just for that moment), those limbless Iraqis and US soldiers which resulted from, for lack of a better word, gullibility. Most importantly, get over the notion that the October Surprise was WHITEWASHED by these bastards with dirty hands, Kerry or no Kerry, giving a traitor like GHWB free reign to spring his progeny on us at will. The mistreatment of Al Gore in favor of this years product shows the depth of support and commitment voters have. I wouldnt want to be Kerry the 12th month of this year when he is tossed in the trash to shouts of "Nader did it!" Yeah, like he said, get over it.

[radfringe]

65. a friend said he would hold his nose and vote for Kerry

I told him that I would supply the clothes pins

[molly]

70. Do you have a bumper sticker for that?

I love it!!!

[radfringe]

102. snicker

actually, I have been trying to figure out how to get "printed" clothes pins done up

also have been looking into some sort of shovel pin/keychain for bush* voters... the shovel is for them to help dig themselves out of the hole bush* has put us all in... :evilgrin: or for shoveling more bushit...

[RetroLounge]

68. yawn

:nopity::nopity:
:nopity::nopity:
:nopity::nopity:
:nopity::nopity:

[molly]

69. We've been called names for a very long time now

it's becoming rather amusing. :party:

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

I know it's early in the morning, but :toast:

:bounce:

[deutsey]

73. Oh please

You're going to need thicker skin than this in the upcoming months.

You all realize Bush hasn't even really pulled out the big guns yet, don't you? Dukakis (and I'm NOT saying Kerry is another Dukakis, so put that flamethrower down) was way ahead of Bush I in 1988 before they pulled out all their ugly tricks.

If you are sick of the sniping going on here you're going to be in critical condition by the time November rolls around.

[Dr Fate]

77. We dont need our so-called "friends" helping them. That is BLM's point...

We know that the GOP & media will attack & lie about us.

What makes us upset is that so called Liberals are now JOINING the GOP & media in attacking democrats.

A 3 to 1 fight against Democrats will be tough, but we can do it...

Hand Raised. I am sick of my enemies: the GOP, media, and their valued allies, the assorted DEM bashers.

[deutsey]

78. I understand blm's point

and I'm standing by what I said:

We all better develop some thick skins and be prepared to fight like hell or when Bush really starts hitting us we're going to crumble.

I've seen it happen too many times, and these thugs are dead serious about holding on to power. Don't think they aren't going to hit us with all the ferocity they can muster.

Complaining and being "sick" about the attacks aren't going to make them stop.

[Dr Fate]

88. I agree- it's time we stop greeting enemies w/ a smile & handshake

I'm "sick" of them- but tthat means I am going to FIGHT them.

I'm not going to sit back while Republicans, the media and "Liberals" trash DEMS...

"Liberals" who think they are doing me a favor by trashing DEMS need not be suprised when I treat them the same as I do the GOP & media: as an enemy.

[deutsey]

101. Understood, but I'll trash any damn Dem who deserves it

I don't consider myself a member of the Democratic Party anymore, but I'm voting Kerry in November (it would be foolish not to, IMO). However, just as I voted twice for Clinton and still criticized him when I felt he deserved it, I'll do the same to Kerry whenever he deserves it.

[Duder]

75. What happened to "bring it on"?

Or if you're sick of those who never bothered to research all the candidates but wrongly declare Kerry is not much different than Bush.

True, a year ago 50% couldn't name one Democratic candidate and so they might see similarities such as both being skull & bones, with both having gone to Yale, and with the senator voting mostly with Bush on the important issues. Of course there are differences, such as Bush didn't vote in 1986 to confirm Antonin Scalia to the Supreme Court.

Or if you're sick of those who never paid attention to Kerry or his progressive policy positions over the last 30 years, now claim that he stole them from a career centrist governor who only tacked left last year.

Those that have paid close attention will recognize that the governor has been moving to the left for the past several years whereas the senator has been moving to the right. While the senator has voted consistently along party lines, the value of a rating of 85 for 2001-2002 from the liberal People for the American Way is hardly of progressive value when one considers Joe Lieberman's rating was identical at 85. The senator from Massachusetts has held centrist positions in favor of welfare reform, trade legislation and the Gramm-Rudman deficit-reduction law, to name a few. In 1992, the senator gave a speech saying affirmative action, which he supports, has had costs as well as benefits. "There exists a reality of reverse discrimination that actually engenders racism," he said. Voting records are often misleading and positions can evolve which makes from a progressive standpoint the observation of trends and current direction headed of greater importance.

Or if you're sick of people who claim you don't vote your conscience if you support Kerry.

Polls have consistently shown voters have not voted for Kerry because of agreeing with him on the issues but rather based on 'electability'.

Or if you're sick of people who claim that Kerry has no spine and never stood up to the Republicans. (These same people never heard of BCCI, IranContra, CIA drugrunning and the illegal wars in Central America that were all exposed by Kerry. They may never have heard of Nixon, Reagan or Bush Sr., either.)

It was exposed first by a newspaper report in California which led to the formation of the senate committee. Give Kerry some credit for putting some of the facts on record although detractors might suggest the $10 million spent didn't really accomplish much. Reagan and Bush Sr. got off free as did most of those convicted. Just check the current administration and you'll find many of those prosecuted just as heavily involved in the government.

Or if you're hoping you can carry on with the task of getting Bush out of office while fools with no knowledge of the last 30 years post threads implying THEY alone are the guardians of progressive values and you are just jumping on a bandwagon.

Once again, polls have consistently shown that voters have not voted for Kerry because of agreeing with him on the issues but rather based on the myth of 'electability'. Some supporters seem to feel that it's okay to cater for votes to those on the right side of the party but that somehow it's wrong for those with progressive values to do the same.

[Dr Fate]

90. That taunt was not for our so-called friends.

That taunt was for the GOP & media. But if you want to join the GOP & media in attacking DEMS, you will be fought.

"Bring it on" should not be somthing we have to say to other liberals- we should be joining AGAINST the GOP & media, not WITH them like some DUers are doing.

[Duder]

93. With so-called friends like "The Torch"

One might spare others the sermons about "attacking DEMS".

Perhaps at the convention in July, liberals will be provided with more than just GOP rhetoric and will be given a platform instead of the 'walking the plank' some are now offering. Until then, if you really want to get rid of Bush, don't push.

[Dr Fate]

94. Torch who? What sermon?

No sermon here, all I'm saying is if one chooseds to ally themselves with the GOP & media in attacking us DEMS, then they should not be suprised when they are treated like an enemy.

If DEMS are to be attacked by the GOP, Media AND "Liberals"- then so be it.

But dont stab me in the back by acting like the GOP & media and expect me to be your buddy.

If DEM bashers want warmth & companionship, get it from your allies in the GOP & media. Thats all I'm saying.

[Duder]

96. Bob Torricelli - "The Torch"

See: Political Mugging In America

Let's not cheapen the principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community by abbreviating Democracy. Don't dictate the rules of conduct for dissent before there's even a platform or you'll just alienate people, which will mean that you are a Bush enabler and ally. With Kerry as the nominee, he's going to need an awful big tent and not some warm fuzzy little pup tent of non critical companionship.

[Zhade]

106. You're just confusing the rabid followers with facts.

Now, I'll say there are many DUers here who are not fanatical in their worship of Kerry. Their minds remain open. Many, in fact, acknowledge that they are only voting for Kerry against b*sh, and are not thrilled about it.

The problem arises when some supporters press the myth that Kerry is some kind of liberal saint. Yeah, he voted for many progressive things. I'm cool with that. His last few years of votes have been less than wonderful, in my opinion (which, of course, I am entitled to both have and share if I desire).

Many of the most ardent supporters throw terms like "freeper" "turncoat", even "traitor" at people who raise legitimate concerns about Kerry. This is quite detrimental to the democratic process - if a person brings something up, and it's conclusively debunked (e.g. the "intern" nonsense, which I never believed was true), that's one thing. But to simply attack when a concern is raised strikes me as a very Republican thing to do.

We're never going to change this country if we naively assume that all our problems with disappear under a Democratic administration. History should have taught us that lesson already, but I fear it's one we may have to relearn.

[flaminbats]

76. I'm sooo sorry..nothing wrong with merely running away my friend

don't be sad, be happy..as you well know, name-calling can also be cool! :headbang:

But some just feel too important to get those hands dirty..others hear this shit from Republicans everyday and the last place we'll take it from is our own Party :hippie:

So as a former Dean supporter and a Kucinich voter, I'm raising my hand whether you like or not! :evilgrin:

[GumboYaYa]

79. Give it up and get over it.

If anyone on here is really concerned about anonymous posts on an internet message board and let's that distract them from working to get rid of Bush, I have three words for you. GET A LIFE!

[Dr Fate]

89. But what about Bush enablers outside of this board???

Who are acting just like the GOP & media in trashing Democrats. We need to know that we have a 3 against one fight on our hands.

[WEagle]

97. what about who?

please explain if you make a distinction between questioning something and trashing it? It all sounds pretty nebulous to me. Could you be more specific?

[mzmolly]

81. hmmmmmmm

:nopity:

[LynneSin]

84. I have a name I'm gonna call all you Kerry supporters.....

WINNERS!!!!

[NNN0LHI]

99. If it don't kill you it only makes you stronger is my belief n/t

[Zhade]

104. Or "fools" with no knowledge of current events "define" progressives.

See, the blade cuts both ways, blm. Your statements can be reversed and directed right back at you.

Like you can define who a progressive is. Hah! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

[Hippo_Tron]

105. I've been sick of it since Iowa n/t

[RogueTrooper]

107. I've never been called names as a Kerry supporter

Personaly, it was the people who use their support of a canidate as a cover for personal attacks and the spreading of vile innuendo who make me sick. I am eternally gratefull that so many of them no longer choose, or in some cases, can post on DU anymore.