Dean will not get the Nomination. Let’s Adjust to That Likely Outcome

[WiseMen]

The DU is home to many devoted and well intentioned supporters of Governor Dean. Unfortunately, most are being kept in the dark by the Dean Campaign. The campaign knows that there are a number of reasons that make it unlikely that Dean will end up getting the nomination of the Democratic Party. One key reason has to do with Dean’s weakness as a candidate. Another has to do with the survival of the Party itself.

1. Dean is fundamentally a weak candidate who was given an early break.

The campaign is well aware of the fact that Dean got off the ground because the presumptive leader, John Kerry, allowed him to spend 1 1/2 years going up and down NH quietly disparaging his character and record ("Insider" "out-of-touch," "tool of washington lobbyists," etc. ) and building a pro-Dean/anti-Kerry base.

Kerry was urged by his Campaign manager to respond strongly to Dean from the early days but refused to sign-off on attacks, which would have hobbled Dean early by nailing him to his anti-welfare, anti-environment, Corporate Tax-Break Vermont record.

Kerry’s IWR vote was not a crippling issue until Dean's jumped onto the strategy of co-opting the anti-war movement and using the IWR vote to further discredit Kerry in the harshest of terms.

The cable networks, the talk-radio shows, the varied right-wing channels became a big echo-chamber trumpeting Dean’s rise and diminishing Kerry effectively accomplishing the principal Republican objectives.

But, Dean’s rise was based on tactical campaign maneuvers not on fundamental strengths. Dean has huge credibility problem in the area on national security and has a shallow grasp of most domestic policy issues.

Kerry's late decision to criticize Dean won't have much impact. But something much more ferocious awaits Dean after IOWA and NH whittles down the field. That is what Dean is afraid of, not what is happening now. He is squealing now to forestall the rumored big guns.

2. The Clinton wing of the Democratic Party intends to stop him.

The Dean people continue underestimate the profound concern among senior Democratic leadership that a Dean electoral disaster will be so great as to cripple the Party for a generation. Ego prevents Dean from realizing how dangerously weak he is.

Significant money and expertise is being pumped in the Clark campaign. Endorsements are being lined up nationally. The Clinton wing views Dean as (whether wittingly or not) the candidate of the RNC. Dean is effectively functioning as a surrogate for Bush and the quiet Clinton anger at the Republicans and the Bush Regime will soon be turned on Dean. Clinton teams are already organized to evaluate the threat Dean represents to the Party and to take action as necessary.

Regardless of what happens in IOWA and NH, a strong Clinton-backed Clark effort will shape a 2-man race, starting Feb. 3rd, which Dean has little chance of winning. This 2-man race will continue in state to state battles through the primaries. Clark is being kept out of the fray till the 2-man race is setup, to allow others to go after Dean will Clark takes the high road. But once the 2-man race begins Clark will not accept Dean attacks without an immediate and fierce response. The free ride will be over.

In a 2-man battle with Clark, Dean will be crushed. He won’t be able to depend on Big-media help him by undermining Clark, the way they undermined Kerry. In the South the small-town media will favor Clark over Dean. Clarks past support of republicans will neutralize Rove’s efforts to attack Clark on behalf of Dean via surrogates such as Schwarzkopf .

The preemptive and surprising Gore endorsement of Dean was the signal: there is a storm coming, and without some extraordinary backing Dean is going to be swept away. We should start getting used to it.

[corporatewhore]

1. and you for get about the progressives

who are steaming because of deans masquarding as a liberal
And i think there are alot of people who find him extremly arrogant and misleading

[WiseMen]

4. Kucinich and Kerry were the solid progressives, but sidelined by Dean

[dkf]

14. So you think progressives are going to vote for an ex-military General?

I thought they were leery of the MIC?

[mike from ri]

32. Clark is well positioned to take on the MIC

(military industrial complex) because he knows it the best.

progressives will follow Michael Moore and overcome their stereo-types

go Wes.

[dkf]

58. Are you sure he wants to?

He was on the corporate board for several defense related companies:
(I'm not trying to say he's another Dick Cheney, just that if he sold this stuff, he must see a need for it in Govt)

Article used to be here but is now unavailable:
http://www.nwanews.com/adg/story_National.php?storyid=43245

After the Army, Clark signs up as businessman

Doors open for retired general

snip

"Clark was looking for a job in investment banking. And Warren Stephens, chief executive officer of Stephens Inc., the investment arm of the Stephens Group, wanted to become a player in aerospace and technology.

At the time, Stephens Inc. was deeply involved in Northrop Grumman Corp.’s $13.4 billion acquisition of TRW, which would create the second-largest defense contractor in the country. Warren Stephens saw that as a foot in the door of an industry in which it had little history. Clark might swing the door open, he thought.

snip

Stephens formed a new subsidiary, SCL LLC, specifically for aerospace and defense consulting. Clark was the only employee, Acxiom the only customer. Acxiom agreed to pay Stephens $300,000 a year. Clark’s cut of that is unknown.

snip

Clark serves on the board of advisers of Time Domain Inc., an aerospace- and-defense-minded wideband communications company in Huntsville, Ala. The company develops radar that can see through walls and a next-generation global-positioning chip that can create invisible security bubbles around cell phones and other handheld devices.

--he was also on the board of Entrust, an internet security firm with government contracts and on the stockholders committee of Messer Griesheim, a German industrial gas manufacturer.

[okieinpain]

242. I'm a dean supporter, and the only problem I have with the

dean is bad/dean is good argument is, a lot of the haters act like their guy will be immune to attacks from bush. you have got to be living in lala land to think that the stories won't come out about whoever the dem nom is.

[bowens43]

98. Michael Moore

has his head planted firmly up his ass on this one. I will not vote for Clark and no one in my sphere of influence (friends , family etc granted it's about 5 or 6 people) will vote for Clark. The man has been trained to seek military solutions to political problems. I associate with dozens of liberals and progressives , the majority say that beating bush is not a good enough reason to put a general in the white house. Clark ,as the Dem nominee, will have the effect of moving the party even further to the right and moving those on left out of the party. I will enthusiastically support any of the candidates EXCEPT Clark.

BTW, Clark IS the MIC

[mike from ri]

109. sounds prejudiced

what about General Washington, our 1st prez?

[bowens43]

118. What about him?

Did you vote for washington? Neither did I and I won't vote for this product of 30 years of military indoctrination either. To oppose evil is not to be prejudiced, that argument is one we often see on that right wing extremest site.

[ochazuke]

128. "Only Nixon could go to China"

In the same way, an ex-military man has the credibility needed to carry out peace-seeking policies instead of being rushed into war out of fear that the right-wing opposition will make political points out of "softness" on the enemy.

[bowens43]

130. Unfortunately, Clark's recent 180 degree about face

in his political philosophy destroys any credibility he may have once had.

[Justice]

134. I'll Take Clark's Political Philosophy Any Day

I am sorry that you don't support Clark, but appreciate your right to make a choice.

Clark's political philosophy is squarely in line with mine. He is extremely intelligent, with a global view, with on the ground experience negotiating with foreign countries and leaders. He has experience with running large organizations and budgets.

He will make a wonderful President.

[bowens43]

144. NOW his political philosophy is squarely in line with yours.

Less then two years ago it was squarely in line with bushes. He was either a liar then or he's a liar now. Or maybe he wasn't a liar, maybe he just has extremely poor judgment. No one makes such a radical shift in such a short time.

[Scoopie]

166. Get real

Clark was only giving credit to Powell - if the truth be known - and Bush was along for the ride.
I don't consider someone who voted for Clinton twice and Gore once as "squarely in line with the Bushes."

[bowens43]

178. Pretty straight forward if you ask me

May of 2001:
"I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Paul O'Neill - people I know very well - our president, George W. Bush. We need them there."

Then in January 2002:

"I tremendously admire, and I think we all should, the great work done by our commander-in-chief, our president, George Bush,"


Just Powell? Hardly.

He
Voted for Nixon
Voted for Ford
Voted for Reagan
Voted for Reagan again
Voted for George H. W. Bush

Nixon and Reagan are arguably the two most corrupt men ever to occupy the White House.

How can we trust a man who either believed in these people or had such poor judgment that they didn't see them for the scum that they were?

[amyforclark04]

211. Can you explain to me how someone

could vote for Ford?

Ford was not elected into office, so no one could vote for Ford. But Clark did vote for Carter.

[bowens43]

220. No Clark voted for for Ford.

Ford was appointed after Nixon resigned when that term was up, he then ran for the office of President of the United States against Jimmy Carter in 1976. Clark as we know voted for Ford in that election and for Reagan in the next one.

[TLM]

195. Which philosophy is that? The current one...

or the one he had two years ago when he was going to repuke fundraisiers to say what a truly great leader reagan was and how glad he was hat W and his crew were in the whitehouse?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

245. What recent 180 degree turn? I must've missed it.....

Sure you don't have him mixed up with Howard Dean - "King of the flip-flops?"

[Scoopie]

165. Where do you live?

I don't know a soul who thinks like that!
Anyone, like Clark, who believes in affirmative action, environmental issues, a woman's right to choose and any plank that borders on universal health care is NOT moving the party to the right. Jeepers!
Clark's "just right" - the right mix for most of us.

[bowens43]

181. Of course he will.

First of all, we have no idea what he believes. Secondly the only reason to run the general is to appease those who believe that the Dems are weak on defense. The net affect of having a general on the ticket will be to bring border line republicans and right leaning independents into the party, the net result of that will be a move further to the right. that will drive out those on the left. Remember too, that we are not likely to regain control of congress. Whether or not Clark actually believes the things that he says is irrelevant, they won't happen.

[TLM]

201. Exactly CLark would lose because that's the fight the pukes want

they want the campaign to be about who is the best warior, who is the strongest on defense. The pukes want the whole election to be about defense and military strength because that's where they can take out any dem, and Clark plays right into that hand.

If we play that game, we lose.

We need someone who comes at this from a domestic perspective, like Dean or kucinich. And sicne kucinich doesn;t have a snowballs chance in hell, Dean is it. Dean is the one who can attack Bush on every front, not just defense. And Dean can attack Bush on defnse not by trying to be bigger and tougher, but on being smarter and having better judgement. He can attack Bush on having bad policy that has made us less safe.

Dean is not falling into the typical role that Bush wants to run against and they're scared. Not only that... Dean is the only guy with the support base and funding base needed to take Bush on.

It took the general almost a month to raise a million bucks... it took Dean less than 11 days.

[bearfartinthewoods]

204. how do you really know what he believes in?

because he says so? what if he's lying. how would we know?

[TLM]

217. What if the people attacking him are lying...

how would we know?

[lariokie]

246. Not to sound flip.................

but just because General(as in Top Brass)Clark says he is for "affirmative action, environmental issues, a woman's right to choose and any plank that borders on universal health care" doesn't mean much if it is taken in the context of his love affair with the Pig Party and the current "president"--who, by the way, told us HE was a Compassionate Conservative who did not believe in Nation Building and wanted to be the Education "President".

If I told you I am from the Pentagon and would like to take a peek into your computer files to see if you have been hacked by the Axis of Evil, would you believe me?

[JVS]

185. Moore may have other interests.

I could see a Clark candidacy raising the status of the greens

[TLM]

203. Good point... had not thought of that.

Clark as president would mean the massive green shift... out of the democratic party. Lots of folks on the left do not want a military guy in the white house and would leave the party.

Another reason CLARK WOULD LOSE!

[lariokie]

248. Excuse me.............

?????????

[Boo Boo]

268. The man has been trained to seek military solutions to political problems.

Total. Unmitigated. Unsubstantiable. Horseshit.

The military does not, has never, trained its personel to seek military solutions to political problems---whatever the f*** that's supposed to mean. Sounds like little more than reactionary hyperbole to me. The military trains its personel to fight and win Wars. End of story.

You're claiming that Clark perfers military solutions to political ones, all evidence to the contrary. Which leaves me having to choose between the rantings of an obvious reactionary, and the historical record---not to mention the man's own writings, statements, etc.

Sorry, you lose.

[TLM]

189. Yeah like saying Cheney knows the defense contracting business

so clearly he is the best man to reform it... right?


More desperation.

[TLM]

193. Dean has never claimed to be a liberal...

It is only folks who try to attack him who make this claim.


And the fact is despie all the hate of so called Kucinich supporters here on DU that's directed at Dean for not being a real liberal like DK... one of DK's big claims to fame is pulling republican votes with his anti-choice position. Yet he flip floped on that to pretend to be more progressive than he really is for the presidential run, and his supporters have no problem wih that at all. So if DK's progressive supporters were willing to vote for a guy with a record on choice as disgusting as DK's simpy because of a last minute flip flop before running for the nomination, I have no doubt that they'll be happy to support Dean when he gets the nomination.

[lariokie]

247. Who will Dennis support...............

in the general election if he doesn't get the nomination? Do you suppose he will vote for Bush because he doesn't like Dean, or Kerry, or.............? Follow your leader in the general election. After all, he is still God.

[dkf]

2. Incredible!

You criticize Dean's domestic policy knowledge as shallow and then tout Clark.

You've gotta be joking right?

[WiseMen]

3. Clark's Knowledge is fairly shallow. Clinton Teams do His Policy Papers

But, that is not the point. John Kerry's credentials and expertize
far exceeds both Dean and Clark. But, he failed to play the game and an new game is afoot.

[sventvkg]

97. You are out of your mind....

All the true progressives I know DO NOT TRUST CLARK...Flat out...
I personally like him and I think he's genuine, but my serious lefty friends do not trust him one bit....

[ozone_man]

155. I would say your friends have pretty good judgement.

And you trust Clark why? Personally, I think he is a neocon rolled out as a last ditch effort to stop Dean.

[Kahuna]

182. A lot of progressive do trust Clark and are supporters...

Many of them crossed over from Dean, Kucinich and Kerry. They will continue to do so. How do I know? There are several messages posted on the Clark blogs everyday from former Dean, Kucinich and Kerry supporters. Every day. Sorry to disappoint you.

[TLM]

205. Really thats odd because every day on the Dean blogs and boards

More and more Clark supporters are coming to join up with Dean as they realize they've been scammed by Clark.

Some of these folks had no idea about Clark raising money for republicans or working as a defense lobbist... and when they learn the truth they are so upset at being lied to by Clark.

Sorry to disappoint you, but this is why Dean is beating Clark even in OK.

One big mistake Clark made is letting it out that Clinton was pushing him from behind the scenes... most of the military hawks who liked Clark, HATE Clinton. So not only will Clark drive off the liberal base of the dems, but the hawks he thought he'd pull want nothing to do with Clinton's chosen.

[Myra]

225. It could be anybody writing those blogs...

But it's still good to hear.

[lariokie]

249. Well, that clinches it then!

I mean if you found former Dean, Kerry, and Kucinich supporters on a Blog page then there is no question that a mass exodus is in play!

[BillPhi]

227. So the "true progressives" have spoken, eh?

I'm sorry, but all the "true progressives" are responsible for putting Bush in office in the first place due to their irresponsible and immature votes for Nader. They are also too childish to admit that this is the truth, sticking to trite arguments like "it wasn't Nader's fault Bush stole the election" and "Gore took votes from Nader". Those same "true progressives" are now backing Dean, and will run away from him screaming and crying once Dean starts to tack to the right.

Wesley Clark was against the war in Iraq as far back as 2002. He testified to Congress on the matter. I don't recall Dean being there for those hearings.

[eileen_d]

5. As a Clark supporter, I disagree with you.

You lost me after the second sentence: "Unfortunately, most (Dean supporters) are being kept in the dark by the Dean Campaign."

And it goes downhill from there.

Those are my two cents, which is all I'm willing to spend on this...

[Tom Rinaldo]

190. Another Clark supporter who disagrees with you

Like eileen above. You are way over the top in my opinion, both in how you describe his chances and his campaign. Nothing like needlessly ruffling feathers to advance one's cause. I think Dean is the legitimate favorite to win the nomination. I think Clark has a realistic fighting chance to take it instead of Dean.

Major portions of the Party "Establishment" are perfectly willing to throw in with Dean if they think his momentum will keep building. What happened with that slate of NJ endorsements is a good early indicator of exactly how that works. So was Gore for that matter. On top of that, many Party regulars are either honestly impressed or intimidated over the intensity of support Dean has won to date from grassroots followers. They can see what frontally opposing that movement has done to Kerry in New Hampshire.

Clark has to honestly show that he can win a strong following of his own, and campaign effectively before most regulars would support Clark over Dean at this stage. Clark is making a good showing of doing just that, but he has a lot of ground to make up. Clark might be a unity candidate ONLY because he has run a clean campaign, and has built a solid base of supporters. Clark has to prove that he can compete WITH Dean, not just AGAINST Dean. None of the other Democratic contenders even has a chance of doing that.

[worldgonekrazy]

6. You have GOT to be kidding me!

You are really far gone man. Dean has populist appeal and a wide support base. To say that he may not end up with the nomination is all well and good (after all, a lot is yet to come), but to insinuate that his front-runner status fell into his lap is absurd. I have only one question for you: Do you believe your own lies about Dean? I used to think your ilk knew they were full of it, but now I am beginning to wonder if fanaticism has not taken its toll.

[WiseMen]

10. Campaign has Appeal and Support Base. Dean in New to Movement

The movement is something much bigger that Dean. Dean join the
activist community for the first time last year. It is impossible that all those good people know him well. I have been involved in
the progressive and activist movement for over 20 years and I know
that while support for Dean is energetic it is not deep -- base on solid understanding of the strenght of Dean's commitment to ideas.

Have I missed something. I have many friends and colleagues who are Dean supporters.

[mouse7]

36. "Have I missed something...many friends... are Dean supporters."

Looks like you missed something and your friends and collegues didn't, actually.

Sounds like you have some smart friends. You should be glad they let you hang around. Maybe you'll pick up something from them.

[WiseMen]

40. I will Support Dean if He is Nominee. That is not what is going down

Objectively, the best prepared candidate is Kerry.
But that is not likely either.

[mouse7]

44. Your friends think you're wrong. Listen to your friends.

You're friends sound like smart people.

[mike from ri]

I think he is almost exactly right

dean's support is enthusiastic but not wide or perhaps, deep.

dean campaign is a movement type campaign. usually do not last. witness perot phenomenom. (yes he dropped out but movement had already peaked and was declining)

[mouse7]

80. Most disagree

You don't generate those types of donations from Dems without having committment from the contributors.

There a lot of loyalty to Dean because there was quite a while where he was the ONLY person with mainstrean appeal that was standing up to Dumbya, putting his career on the line in the process.

I think it means more that Dean stood up to Dumbya to many in some ways because he's a moderate. Dean made criticising Dumbya safe for mainstream political thought again.

[mike from ri]

112. deep, maybe. broad no.

the dean phenom is cult-like. intesne loyaty by a core of adherents with little mass appeal to the general elctorate of 100 mill voters.

[Demeter]

174. I've said it elsewhere, I'll repeat it here

Some people cannot tell the difference between a fad (or cult) and a revolution.

Dean is no fad.

[lariokie]

254. Wait and see.............

before you go writing Dean obituaries. If you are so sure, how about YOU try raising $50 million in $70 donations. That's just in the past six months and only the folks who sent him money. This isn't a train bub, this is a steam roller.

[tameszu]

269. Sad to say, but Bush and the RNC did it in 2000--avg. contribution $55

I love what both Dean and Clark have done with empowering people and using the Internet, but raising a lot of money in small contributions does not a revolution make. There are a lot of uninformed folks out there.

[lariokie]

253. Bingo Again!

You da man (or woman, as the case may be)!

[sventvkg]

104. oh yea it's only enthusiastic and not deep..Can you say 40 Million?

Give me a break...There is a huge movement and dean is at the center but it's not all about Dean...BAsically we WANT BUSH OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT....The BASE is very angry and they are putting their money where their mouths are....

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

138. "cult-like movements"... now you've done it

This is a common pattern of a Clark supporter when they get on a Dean thread.

They bring up various statement why they claim Dean's massive lead isn't really a lead, or Dean's massive fundraising money isn't money, or massive database of supporters aren't really supporters.

Then when shown those arguments have no merit, they call the Dean campaign a CULT.

Get this. Dean has more support than Clark because Clark waited until it was SAFE to criticise BUSH to get into the race. Clark didn't enter the race in the bad old days when nobody dared criticise Dumbya. Clark waited until DEAN cleared the way for others to criticise Dumbya until he stepped out of the shadows.

People are loyal to Dean because he stood up when nobody else would and spoke truth to power. He's not the most progressive candidate in the field, but he has a hell of a lot more personal courage than most of the field. People respect that.

For all of Kerry's flashing medals in people faces, when Kerry could have shown courage and saved thousands of lives, he ducked under his desk with Gephardt, Lieberman, and Edwards, looked at opinion polls, and ran away from the responsibility to stop an illegal war.

People respect Dean becasue he risked his career not for what was popular, but for what was right. That's not a cult. That civic responsibility. Dean simply did what a good citizen is supposed to do.

[edzontar]

141. What the mouse said!!!!

I agree.

Count me among the Bush-hating, hard-leftist, Saddam-loving, destructive, deluded, cancerous, cultlike Dean supporters!!!!

[WiseMen]

148. What Did Dean Risk. He was at 1% in the Polls. Trippi said he had to.

I believe that is reported in the Public Media. Does anyone have
a link?

[JVS]

187. I guess name recognition is only a factor when Clark is doing poorly?

[mouse7]

223. Trippi wasn't campaign manger then. Not till Feb 2003.

ohhhh. I'm so sorry. Thanks for playing though.

But we have some lovely parting gifts for you...

And what did Dean risk?

Dean was set as a "middle of the road moderate" for a bid eventually for US Senate in Vermont. Dean would have been untouchable to run for Jeffords' seat after Jeffords retires. Jefford is either 68 or 69. The minute Dean announced he was against the war, Dean put that all in jeopardy.

[lariokie]

256. Link to what?

A link to your fantasies?

[JVS]

186. Preach the TRUTH!

:yourock:

[lariokie]

255. Strike Three!

They're out! Wahoo, you gotta arm on you Mr./Ms. pitcher!

[bearfartinthewoods]

196. where do you get 40 million????

: eyesroll :

[TLM]

207. 40 million is the total war chest Dean has so far for this year...

He's raised more money in one year than any democrat EVER.



Oh but he's a weak candidate... :eyes:

[lariokie]

260. Now it's more than $40 MM

See www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/01/elec04.prez.dean.fundraising/index.html And it's virtually all from little guys and gals like you an me in small bills so Ashcroft can't track it.

This guy has some warts no doubt about it. But he can somehow get folks jazzed and that is precisely what we need! I'll vote for Saddam before I would sit on the sidelines just because my favorite didn't win the Demo nomination.

[Scoopie]

167. My friends are smart

and none of them support Dean. ;)

[lariokie]

252. Very Good!

Touche!

[lariokie]

251. Yep..............

you've missed something.

[mike from ri]

11. dean's populism is latte populism

no appeal to middle America.

even a million inter-net users such as those who have signed onto dean's inter-net campaign, do not comprise the 50 million votes needed to win. dean's support is intense but narrowly confined.

[BillPhi]

228. Ah, the "movement"!

It's like a Simpsons episode: "We love the leader. We love the leader. Leader! Leader! Leader!"

Reality check: It's always about the candidate, never about the movement.

On another note: How different would history have been if the GOP said "Reagan for governor of California??? But he voted for FDR!"

Stupid.

[mike from ri]

7. exactly correct and as it should be

Dean is already sinking -- see post elsewhere (not by me) re the latest American resch grp poll in NH.

Clark is already rising (see same source)

NH voters are independent and will resent the perceived sense of smug front-runner-ism that has now shrouded the dean campaign. This will be a target for that state's notorious and proud volatility.

i see the same dynamic that benefited McC and Hart in prior years.

[Gore1FL]

16. but the gap is like 25%

that is a LOT of space to make up before the NH primary, and it is clear that Clark will not get an IA bump, as he has decided not to devote his resources there.

The test will be how SC goes. That will be a tough nut to crack for anyone if Dean comes out of NH and IA with half his current lead.

I suspect that 2 of three candidates (Lieberman, Gephardt, and Kerry) are gone after NH and IA -- Though only speculating, I would think Clark would be most likely to get most of Gephardts money if he shows well in NH. I think Kerry's supports would mostly end up with Dean. I am not certain the Lieberman has money or supporters...

[mike from ri]

22. its not the absolute numbers, its the directions

primary polling is extremely tricky especially in these days of answ. machines and cell phones.

absolutes are not important; it is the direction. Clark rising; dean falling; Kerry falling.

[Gore1FL]

39. true to an extent

but we are talking a matter of weeks before the IA caucus and the NH primary if Clark doubles his numbers and hits 24% and Dean loses 12%, he still wins. Additionally, you assume that the rise in Clarks numbers are reflective in and of themselves as a trend. This is demonstrably not the case as seen here:

http://americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/dem/

[mike from ri]

52. meteoric rises were experinced by McC and Hart and Eugene McCarthy

I don't have the hard numbers in front of me, but I believe that clark's position now is no worse than the position of those other candidates at the same time in their resepctive election cycles

[mouse7]

69. Internet will probably reduce chances of that

The average voter isn't finding out all they are going to find out about candidates in the last week before a primary like in years past. Voters have has candidate positions for most of a year available on the net.

It's not impossible, but it will be very tough. Just not a lot of undecided left for massive swings.

[Gore1FL]

99. I can only speak about Hart, as i remember that 1984 well

He came in a suprising second in IA. That may happen for Clark, but he is not actively campaigning there and Dean and Gephardt are the ones to beat there.

[mouse7]

115. So do I.

It happened because the media didn't focus on the Primaries until like the week before the vote. Most voters didn't look till then.

With the net, the party base is already fully informed along with about half the voters.

Half the voters are knowledgable for a longer period of time. The rest are their clueless selves.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. SC is in the South -- Clark is from the South,

and that's a big plus for him. Dean plans to talk about Jesus but I don't see that helping him. It's no secret that Dean rarely goes to church.

[Gore1FL]

53. AR south is different form SC south.

and currently Dean is leading in SC (albiet ever so slightly). the outcomes of IA and NH are going to tips the scales significantly both from the standpoint of candidate momentum and number and alignment of those that resign from the race.

If Edwards drops before SC, his support will likely go to Clark, for example.

[mike from ri]

66. dean talking about jesus

is like mike dukakis in his tank

[Scoopie]

169. Do you really think...

... that if Dean wins Iowa and NH that he'll win South Carolina?
Ha! South Carolinians will vote for someone else just to spite those "damn Yankees." I'm really not trying to be a smart a**, I'm being serious here: just look at Bill Clinton.

[mike from ri]

8. well, not exactly correct

I amend my endorsement of your post to state that you are slightly incorrect about one detail. I see an early clark break-out in NH: an outright win in the granite state a la McC

[Gore1FL]

9. While the nomination is certainly still up for grabs

And it is certainly possible that Dean will not get the nomination, I fundamentally disagree with your points.

If Dean is a weak candidate, he wouldn't have what seems to be a huge chunk of the Democratic Base behind him. To 'blame' his success on someone else's inept campaign doesn't wash.

Secondly, Clinton has already said he will not endorse a candidate during the primary/caucus season. Therefore the "Clinton Wing," should it decide to take the course you suggest, would not at all be the "Clinton wing" as they would be defacto going aginast the espoused strategy of Clinton.

Finally, how is a Gore endorsement a sign that Dean is weak? If Clinton does endorse Clark, as you suggest he (or his people) will, does that inherently spell doom for Clark?

Having not decided on a candiate to support in the MO caucus yet (I need to see who survices IA and NH) I can find reasons to support either Clark or Dean as well as others in the field.

Without supporting documentation for your claims, and in light of polling which reflects quite differently of Dean vs Clark in the Primary and Caucuses in some Southern states, I can't say you convinced me.

There are plenty of reasons to support Clark, who I assume is who you are supporting based on your post. Dean being unelectable is not one of them.

Dean has made similar comments about being the only electable candidate. So has Lieberman. I suspect Clark has as well -- if not that is your posts point. Each assertaion is, at best, bizzare speculation.

Thae candiadte I support in the Caucus is gonig to have to do better than "no one else is electable". That line is an addmittance of being the lesser of two evils.

It may as well be "I suck, but I don't suck as much as these other guys". It is not energizing. It is not convincing, it is self- depreciating, self-destructive, and benefits no one but the real problem -- the current commander in Thief.

If you want me to vote for Clark, then tell me why I should vote for Clark. If you need to explain to me why I should not vote for the each of the 100 million citizens eligable to run, it is going to be a long night and a lot of wasted bandwidth.

[eileen_d]

12. Well said. Thanks n/t

[WiseMen]

13. I know for a fact that Experts Committed to Clinton are in the Background

working for Clark on requests that appear to come from Bill.

[eileen_d]

15. LOL - Clinton conspiracy theories

are sooooooo 20th century.

Care to provide any names?

[WiseMen]

17. This is not a secret. Why do you think Dean "wink, wink" asked DNC to Help

It is an inside joke. I could easily provide names. Some of the more
public ones are quick discovered by checking media reports and commentary. But there are numerous "accademics" at work for
Clark at "Clinton's" bequest. Again. this is not a secret to the
campaigns. Just not officially acknowledged.

[eileen_d]

20. When you put "Clinton" in quotes

are you admitting that you have no proof for what you're saying?

"There are numerous academics at work for Clark at Clinton's bequest." I don't doubt that people associated with the Clintons are working on Clark's campaign; what bothers me is your assertion that Clinton is some sort of puppeteer in the background pulling all the strings. So go on, prove it. I've got popcorn.

[JI7]

21. agree

there are people on kerry's side who worked for clinton. and i'm a big supporter of clinton so there is nothing wrong with it comes to him. and kerry himself talks to clinton at times.

[mouse7]

38. I think there's Clinton people on pretty much all the campaigns. n/t

[mike from ri]

48. but watch the real clinton insiders

[eileen_d]

54. If only I knew their names!

Like I said... I've got popcorn. Show me the money.

[mouse7]

82. Who are "the real Clinton insiders?" n/t

[mike from ri]

122. start w Charlie Rangel

who inspired Hillary for NY Senator and who has now drafted the General.

[WiseMen]

25. I am talking about People I worked with for 15 years

[eileen_d]

31. OMG... I'm not performing the Inquisition here

Just asking.

As someone else said in this thread, there are plenty of reasons to vote for both Clark and Dean that have nothing to do with the "smoky backroom" theories you've presented. I'll leave it at that.

[KittyWampus]

150. Rahm Emmanuel From Chicago

he's a great Clinton Democrat who hopefully will play a role in the National Party in the future.

[Gore1FL]

18. Now that is a waffle

"I know for a fact...that appear to come"

That is like saying "I promise that I can probably..." or "you have my word that I might..."

[WiseMen]

23. I Guess You Know what happened to Will Pitt. Please Don't Push Disclosure

[mouse7]

26. No.. please tell us happened to Will Pitt

We're all ears.

[Gore1FL]

30. What?

His boss was sent a letter from an idiot who misrepresented the facts.

What does that have to do with your statements assuring everyone that there MIGHT be Clinton involvement?

I can assure you that their MIGHT be involvement from Queen Elizabeth.

In either case, what does this have to do with someone writing a letter to someone's boss?

[mouse7]

41. Oh, that one. Gotcha. n/t

[mike from ri]

27. it may be a "waffle", but

there is an apparent growing alignment between those close to the clintons and Clark. how else is Clark doing so well in $ this Q?

[eileen_d]

28. Uh... could it be Democrats donating him money?

Perish the thought!

[mouse7]

46. Could be Republicans he raised money for giving him money, too.

I imagine there's a fair amount of both.

[eileen_d]

51. Cheap shot

I imagine Republicans are pretty busy donating to Bush and Cheney.

[mike from ri]

73. agree, that was a cheap shot

clark spoke at a repub function to promote the UN and other international isntitutions (unfortunately, not a receptive audience). he never actively solicited $ for the gop

[Gore1FL]

102. It was hardly cheaper than the thread's intial post.

but, agreed, both are cheap shots, and neither are supportive of any candidate in any meaningful way.

[WiseMen]

29. You can take that to the Bank

[Gore1FL]

35. They all are getting cash from Cllinton supporters

Dean set a record this last quarter. did all of those donations come from people who voted for Dole?

[WiseMen]

45. Lieberman, Kucinich, Kerry, Gephart, Edwards?? Not getting the money

[mike from ri]

47. dean has tapped into dems not affiliated with party establishment

as well as others who are not dems at all.

but Clark has obviously tapped into the Clinton donor network

[bowens43]

160. I supported Clinton

now I support Dean as do all members of my family (parents, voting age children, siblings and their spouses).

[mouse7]

24. You mean like Maria Eschavara, Clinton's Dep. Chief of Staff?

Oh, that's right, she's a Dean Campaign Co-chair, isn't she.

[Justice]

135. And Bill Clinton, Albright and Berger?

Who have lent time to coach Dean on foreign affairs?

[tsipple]

200. Warren Christopher Sure Was Smiling When He Introduced Dean

I'm pretty sure I remember Warren Christopher as Clinton's Secretary of State.

And who's that guy Tony Lake? :7

[mike from ri]

19. vote for Clark because he can transcend the cultural divide

. . . that threatens to isolate us dems on the margins of American politics.

voters do not dislike Dem specific policies so much as Dem intangibles: cultural hedonism, obsessive secularism, a lack of toughness, catering to spec interests, individual permissiveness, Clinton's personal peccadillo's, gore's lack of self-grounding, general over-intellectualizing.

Clark's bio, military experience, sense of self-sacrifice, heroism, emotional attachment to country, pragmatism are the answer to this distaste.

[Gore1FL]

33. Perhaps

But McCain's bio, military experience, sense of self-sacrifice, heroism, emotional attachment to country and pragmatism didnl;t help him much in 2000 against Bush.

[mike from ri]

37. because that was in the republican primary contest

The GOP is a hierarchical insider top-down party.

the more diverse Dem party is capable of nominating Clark.

but the key reply to you, Gore1FL, is who would win a general election: McC v. W. B4 a general electorate the answer is McC. He would have had the broader appeal.

[mouse7]

50. Clark will end "individual permissiveness, cultural hedonism"????

Is Wesley Clark going to put padlocks on our bedroom doors?

Uh-oh.

[mike from ri]

60. no, but Clark will appeal to voters who

would otherwise not be receptive to dems.

there are swing voters that Clark can reach that most dems cannot.

[mouse7]

64. Yeah, the Republicans he supported in the past.

I'm not saying he's a neo-con, though. I'd never say that.

How far he is from an Olympia Snow-type Republican is a legit question, though

[moz4prez]

what the hell is your idea of a republican anyhow?

He wasn't a registered Republican, he subscribes to the ideals of the Enlightenment, and thinks America should uphold those ideals. He addressed an audience at a Republican fundraiser two years ago, and a week later gave an address at a Democratic fundraiser. Why must you toss about vague accusations???

[mouse7]

90. No more Zell Millers and John Breauxs

I'm tired of the DINO influence on the Democratic Party

[mike from ri]

103. thanks for defending the General

[edzontar]

145. HUH? "The ideals of the Enlightenment"?

Which migth include "Secularism," intellectualism," and "personal hedonism," eh?

How much do you know about the 18th-century and the purveyors of the "Enlightenment.?

Wincklemann, Kant, Voltaire, et al?

Ever take a history class?

[mike from ri]

heavan forbid, our party should attract some repubs

what is so bad about bringing some mod reubs over to our party?

[mouse7]

86. Nothing if they are voters

We have enough moderate Republicans elected as Republicans. We don't need more Zell Millers and John Breauxs. Dems need progressive candidates.

Tired of all the political discussion in this society being on the right side of the political spectrum.

[Gore1FL]

95. Nothing

There is an anti-Dean argument somewhere on this thread that all of HIS support is coming from crossovers.

I am getting confused as to what is and what is not a reason to not vote for Dean.

[LouisFC]

234. Olympia Snowe

Having grown up in Maine, I will say that Olympia Snowe has done an enormous amount for the poor and working poor. She has stood her ground on a number of issues vital to this segment of the population and given the opportunity I would proudly vote for her as I did when I lived in Maine.

Her vote on the Medicare Bill is one of the few times when I have been disappointed in her judgement.

[wakfs]

136. Wait just a minute

"Cultural hedonism, obsessive secularism... individual permissiveness..."

Those are some of the very reasons I vote Democratic!
I would have a difficult time supporting a candidate who didn't represent if not possess these characteristics.

[edzontar]

143. So, you are sayng vote for Clark because...

He's an anti-intellectual, anti-hedonist, anti-secularist....?

You just lost me, pal.

[Jerseycoa]

161. Whoa, stop right there

>cultural hedonism... individual permissiveness... over-intellectualizing

No way. Wes Clark is not a judgmental, parochial, and narrow-minded anti-intellectual.

To the contrary, he is himself a broadminded, worldly, and sophisticated intellectual.

He would never approve this message. Nuh uh.

[bowens43]

221. So you suggest we become more like republicans to win?

No. Afraid not.

[DemBones DemBones]

34. I disagree with your statement that says

"If Dean is a weak candidate, he wouldn't have what seems to be a huge chunk of the Democratic Base behind him."

He has gotten a lot of people enrolled in meet-ups, excited about the cause, etc. But are they a "huge chunk of the Democratic Base"? Some of his supporters come from the Democratic base but many are new voters: young voters voting for the first time in 2004, people who have never voted before, people who are registered Republicans or registered Greens or Independents. There are GOP operations that encourage Repubs to support Dean by giving money and voting for him in the primaries, crossing over to vote in Dem primaries. But if he gets the nomination, they will not be supporting him next November. They're only supporting him now to select our candidate for us.

Dean has completely turned off a lot of Democrats like me with his arrogance, his lies, his poor record. A lot of other Dems aren't paying attention yet and are likely to only see his campaign unraveling. not the glory days when he seemed unstoppable. It's very likely that someone else will surge in the primaries and get the nomination. I certainly hope that happens because I will not be able to make myself vote for Dean.

The Dark Horse Cometh. . . Dennis J. Kucinich for President 2004

[mike from ri]

43. and it is not huge

dean's support is not "huge". dean has perhaps 500,00 log-ons many of whom were just curious or have moved onto other candidates (alot are discovering Clark). 500,000 does not equate w 50 million. it will take 50 million votes to beat bush. dean has an enthusiastic core. but he is a cult candidate who cannot transcend his narrow base.

I support Wes, but liked your analysis.

[Gore1FL]

59. His narrow base of 37%

n/t

God I feel like I am defending Dean, and I am not.

I'm sorry, but bottom line is the arguments on this thread are still why I shouldn't vote for Dean, and al;l of them are unconvincing.

Tell me why I should vote for Clark, or Kucinich or whomever for reasons other than speculation on who may or may not be supporting him.

"Dean can't win" is an arbitrary and unsupportable argument. Tell me why someone else will win and why the should win and you'll have a much better chance of convincing this undecided voter.

[mouse7]

72. Really... Clark ending hedonism isn't the best closer line

Having platform planks like ending individual permissiveness and hedonism won't fly too well here at DU

Matter of fact, we're kinda pro-hedonism here.

[mike from ri]

123. it's not about the platform

it is about the underlying unstated cultural themes.

i think that part of Clark's appeal is not issue specific. indeed this is a characteristic of all prez winners and all great leaders.

[moz4prez]

142. who's pro-hedonism?? who is WE

God wanted inequality, not injustice.

What Mike from RI is talking about is DEBUNKING or at least UNDERMINING a popular conception of Democrats having loose morals or ambiguous values. I don't know if that's even the case, I highly doubt it, but that's probably what he was getting at. I think he made himself fairly clear, anyhow.

You might not realize this but Americans sometimes have a bit of a Puritan streak and Republicans have seized upon this. They've used it to their advantage, and, it follows, to our loss.

[edzontar]

146. So let's form the Clark-for-Pres Anti-Sex League?

Bring back the temperance movement.

Hey you homos, get back in the closet!!!

What in Gawd's name are you talking about....I feel like I have enetered the Twilight Zone.

[Gore1FL]

49. In NH only declared party members can vote in the primary

Republican or Independant cannot participate unless they change their party declaration.

In other words, there is no cross-over possible in the primary, unless people actually go to the trouble of officially changing their party. That seems to be an extreme measure for a minimal impact.

[mouse7]

55. Are you SURE about that?

I thought the opposite is true. I thought people could pick up the ballot of their choice in NH.

I could be wrong. I think we need to get a NH person to post the real answer.

[mike from ri]

57. mouse7, I agree w respect to independents

i am campaigning for Clark in NH on weekends and I understand that we are targeting independents as is lieb.

[Gore1FL]

62. yep

http://www.state.nh.us/sos/vote.htm

<Snip>

When registering to vote, you will not be required to register as a member of a political party (republican or democratic) -- you may register as an undeclared voter. However, while all registered voters are allowed to vote in a general election, only party members can vote in a primary election. (emphasis mine)

<Snip>

[mike from ri]

68. but it is easy to affiliate for that day only

thus many independents vote in party primary and become members for just that day, . . . i think

[mike from ri]

56. i don't think it is so difficult. i think it is easy for independents.

to vote in the party contests in NH. independents lifted McC

[mouse7]

61. I thought I remebered that

I seem to remember "cross-over" voting being a factor in previous analysis of NH Primary.

[mike from ri]

70. right

[Gore1FL]

87. Independants can

2) If you are a registered member of a party, you may change your registration at any primary, however, you will not be allowed to vote in that primary. Undeclared voters may declare a party and vote at any primary. The law allows an undeclared voter to declare a party at the polls, vote the ballot of that party, and then change their party affiliation back to undeclared simply by completing the form available from the Supervisors of the Checklist at the polling place.

This does beg the question does the 25% gap between Dean and Clark represent independant voters who plan to change their party affiliation for one day? That is over two independants for every Clark voter. That seems high. If true, however, it sort of torpedoes the point of Dean not having mass apeal, doesn't it?

[Gore1FL]

63. Well it is easy

If they change their party affiliation in time. I would consider changing my party affiliation a pain in the ass, and certainly not worth the one-vote impact it would make.

[mike from ri]

71. i think it is an easy instanteous process

at the primary voting itself. you just sign two little cards at the polling place itself. these cards afilliate you and then disafilliate you restoring your indy status.

[Gore1FL]

75. Not according to the site I just linked.

The last day to change your party affiliation for the 2004 Presidential Primary is October 31, 2003

http://www.state.nh.us/sos/vote.htm

[mike from ri]

78. i admit, I'm not precisely sure. will look into.

but i still think there is a same-day alternative.

[Gore1FL]

81. Feel free to look

but I posted the rules stated on the States web page.

[Gore1FL]

89. Indies is how you said, apparently

I posted the reference above.

[mike from ri]

96. yes, a close reading show that "undeclared" can easily change

at the polling place:

Undeclared voters may declare a party and vote at any primary. The law allows an undeclared voter to declare a party at the polls, vote the ballot of that party, and then change their party affiliation back to undeclared simply by completing the form available from the Supervisors of the Checklist at the polling place.

[jumptheshadow]

65. You have nailed it

Just who is this "Democratic base?" It sure seems to have left a lot of long-time liberal Democrats behind.

[mike from ri]

76. you mean dean has left a lot of dems behind?

I find it hard to follow the trhead sometimes. if that is your view, I agree.

[jumptheshadow]

84. Yes, Dean's "base" is very shallow

And it's another example of the journalistic "sheeple" factor. Dean supporters claim they are "the base;" a couple of pundits picked up the terminology, and whoosh, suddenly all over media America Dean is energizing the Democratic "base." Dean's "base" is computer literate, youngish, and suburban. The real Democratic base -- city dwellers, the working poor, minorities, socially conscious women, Jews, gays, longtime Democratic voters, even unions -- are quite likely to still be undecided or supporting another candidate.

[mike from ri]

88. yes, most of the base is undecided and many will gravitate

to other candidates including, especially, clark.

[mouse7]

94. Only 17% is undecided in NH

If Kerry (who is currently in 2nd) got every single undecided voter in the latest poll, Dean would still win.

[mike from ri]

100. if dean kept his support which is soft.

i kbnlw this form canvassing for clark in nh. yes, my evidence is anecdotal but compelling.

[mouse7]

111. A lot depends on if there is a Kerry collapse

If Kerry collapses, Clark picks up most of the support. Then things are closer for quite a while longer.

[mike from ri]

113. I do agree w you once in a while

[kerrygoddess]

266. Doubtful

It's doubtful that Kerry will collapse. As much as others don't want to admit it, he is gaing momentum daily.

[Jerseycoa]

164. Yes

I've questioned the "base" thing all along. I think there is a measure of self-delusion on the part of the Dean campaign on this question of the "base." The traditional Democratic base never left the party and hasn't needed to be brought back into it. Granted, they do get credit for bringing new voters into the base, if all goes well.

[kerrygoddess]

267. Base it not what it seems

I know of many Kery supporters who are on Dean's email lists and with more than one user name. I'm sure this is true about "Dean" supporters from other campaign's as well.

Dean's numbers have barely grown at all. Look at the facts, the growth is not there and Dean is losing supporters daily.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike from ri]

74. i do not think he is a republican

just realistic about the superficiality of the dean phenom

[Gore1FL]

77. I don't think he is a Republican

I think he honestly and earnestly supports Clark.

He just is not putting forth a good argument to convince others already not committed to do so.

I need more than "Dean Sucks" to throw my support to a specific candidate. If "Dean sucks" did work, it would have to be for more plausable reasons than those presented.

[mike from ri]

83. this is not a "dean sucks" arg

i come back to clark's ability to combine the essentials of dem policy with a broad appeal to what the clark campaign calls "a new american patriotism."

what do you think of my "transcend the cultutal divide arg" made elsewhere?

[Gore1FL]

92. I am referencing the initial post of this thread

Which is clearly, a "Dean sucks" argument.

[mike from ri]

101. I understand, but i respectfully ask you

to consider my arg.

[Gore1FL]

105. I appreciate your argument

and am taking it to heart. No problem there!

[mike from ri]

116. thanks

BTW, i assume u focused on the specific official language i cited in the sub-thread re cross-over voting by indies.

also, what is your logo? are u a chessehead? or a sponge?

[Gore1FL]

119. I am a sponge!

17 more years of payments left on my undersea pineapple!

[Walt Starr]

79. Fine, that outcome insures one thing for me

2004 would become the first general election I sit out, ever.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

93. Who are you to tell Walt Starr goodbye?

He's been around DU for years and is a very nice guy.

[mike from ri]

107. I'll tell u who i am:

a loyal Dem who does not threaten to sit out the general election against bush in the event that my candidate doesn't win. I am loathe to think of dean as our party's nominee but if that is who the Dem party selects than i will do my best to see him elected over bush. is it to much to expect reciprocity?

[bowens43]

157. Yes.

Blind loyalty to the party, any party, does that party a disservice. I will not vote for Clark under any circumstances. To do so , would in my opinion, be a violation of my principles and the principles for which the party traditionally stands.

[jumptheshadow]

91. Hope that's still your sense of humor?

And that you're still that funny guy who is poking fun at the excesses of the primary discussions.

[mike from ri]

108. let us hope so

a threat to sit out if our respective candidate doesn't secure the nomination is poor sportsmanship and worse: encouragement to the repubs.

[Gore1FL]

117. I agree

but I can't get mad at "Enronomics" Walt Starr.

Every candidate so far has said, implied, or agreed in silence that he/she was the electable one in the party. In many ways, Walts frustration reflects that argument. I think that is true of many of the posters here who have made a decision.

In some ways it is a credit to be so squarely for a candidate that initial emotions would dictate such a response.

In the end, I'd be suprised if more than 0.5% of the active members here actually failed to participate, (or participated in support or a non-Dem candidate)

[moz4prez]

106. And the world turns . . .

[mike from ri]

121. threatening to sit out the general is out of bounds

don't u agree

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

158. Party Uber Alles?

No thanks. There comes a time when one has to draw the line and say 'Enough is enough'. I draw the line at a general with a record of supporting the most vile republican administrations of the last 40 years and who has been a Democrat for only 3 months.

[JVS]

191. No

[quaker bill]

114. Another unwise post from the usual source

As much as you would posit otherwise, the voters will have a say in this matter.

You consistent lack of clear thought in regard to the campaign renders your nickname less than apt.

Rumours of Dean's demise have been posted daily for months now. Each has turned out as credible as yours will be.

[mike from ri]

120. "the voters will decide" indeed

that is why dean hasn't collapsed yet. he will only collapse after the votes are cast. He does have staying power until the votes are cast.

i never said i expected dean to fizzle b4 the voting.

[quaker bill]

212. A poorly considered reply

40+ million dollars, 280,000+ contributors, 550,000+ supporters, and a 20 pecent lead in the polls. Could this be the voters speaking?

However, far be it from me to deprive you of your fantasy life. You can still dream, for a bit longer...

[edzontar]

124. For Clark to win, he shall have to defeat Dean in the primaries, thus...

The endless procession of posts like this from Clark supporters and supporters of other, even weaker candidates.

In a couple of months, when this is all over, we shall see who the real Dem loyalists are.

[izzie]

125. I just hate to get into this, I do like Dean but,,,,

Money people will win the day. I mean big money or that is how I think. For some reason this being poor Rep. seems to be what the big guys think the Dem party should be. I am for going to the grass roots of the party. Last election I heard that over and over. Both parties are alike.

[mikehiggins]

126. Let the voters decide

This endless debate is pointless.

When you get a chance, go out and vote.

If Bush gets reelected it may be the last chance you get.

[Killarney]

129. A post I can agree with!

Threads like this are ridiculous. Let the voters vote and then unite against GWB.

[retyred]

127. A well thought out post

and right on the money, gore endorsing dean was the death knell for dean, gore sent the party a clear message that he wasn't in favor of the party because of their love for Clinton by sending the message over and over again that he wanted to be his own man and refusing Clinton's help at least twice.

Folks blame the DNC for leaving gore out in the cold in 2000, but that was gores choice, he tried having it both ways by playing off Clinton's 8 years while at the same time not wanting to link himself with Clinton or the party that was still backing Clinton.

The DNC already felt dean was not a team player from the start by attacking out the gate and after gore gave dean the thumbs up it was clear both dean and gore were sending the same message that gore tried to send in 2000 and the party will not play this game this time any more than they did the last.

dean has and will continue to put up a good fight but without the party behind him 110% dean will lose. dean has burned a bridge that needed to be crossed before he got there.

It's politics folks, you can't change it from the porch, and you aren't going to change it by attacking the enemy and "YOUR" perceived party leaders at the same time, you have to get in the door, and without the key that ain't gonna happen.


retyred in fla
“Good Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[Gore1FL]

131. If that is the case, it is too bad Gore didn't endorse Bush

That would have clinched it for the Dems for sure...

It is hard to believe that the endorsement of the person who recieved second largest vote total in the history of the US would be so politically debilitating...

[ima_sinnic]

133. well, knowing all that should make you feel great!

your hatred of Dean is no secret so you should be thrilled to know that he is going to lose. Somehow you never sound very upbeat, though, only hateful about Dean.

[retyred]

177. I 'm sorry if what I see as the truth offends you but

While it's no secret that I don't like dean, the reasons are many, and while I do hope he loses the nomination, I would hope against all odds he would win the GE. I just don't see that happening for not only the reasons stated but IMO I don't believe dean can beat bush, period.

deans vision of change for the party is admirable but as I said he made it the focus of his start and pissed off the ones needed for him to get the key. No one wants to help the one calling for their head on a platter and we're seeing that now with the party doing much of the anti-dean rhetoric and making it a tough row for dean to hoe.

As for me not being very upbeat, I am very upbeat about Clark and have posted my enthusiasm many times on the pro-Clark threads, and I have defended Clark from negative attacks many times, so to insinuate I'm only here to dis dean is wrong.

I have been here since right after selection 2000 and I voted for and defended gore even though I was very disappointed by his poorly run campaign. And sad as it was to learn, I learned from gores defeat what it takes to win in todays political arena. First and foremost, you have to play the game.

dean is right....the party does need to be changed, and that can only happen from the inside, and to get inside, you have to play the game. IMO deans obsession with changing the party would override any real change in policy since the change he seems to want is right of center, he governed this way and there's no reason to believe he wouldn't run his presidency this way. While I would like to see change in the party it is certainly not one of a conservative liberal or moderate republican nature.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[ima_sinnic]

216. Dean is very responsive to The People

Should he be the next president I feel confident that you will find his administration and policies to your liking. Just because he is a "centrist" or "moderate" does not mean he is also not progressive. He is enlightened, humanitarian, and ethical. Many magnitudes better than BushCo. I am in hopes that he will bring the national focus back to the priorities of domestic issues.

[retyred]

240. I've never said dean wasn't an improvement

Christ lieberman would be an improvement, I'm saying that at most the improvement will be minimal at best, deans focus is at changing the party and proving he intends to change it by playing moderate politics with a moderate agenda.

That along with the threats he's stated to those already holding positions within the party, I would look for him to run not just against bush but also against the DNC which is already evident by the piss poor reception he's received so far from the DNC.

Right now there is nothing the DNC can do to stop dean from getting the nomination other than let the voters decide and continue their disapproval of dean as a nominee, but if he does get nominated he can expect minimal support from the party at every level.

We saw this when gore tried to fight bush, there was no party support in fact the party laid down and let bush say and do whatever he wanted, in fact my wife and I both tried to help gore during the recount in any way we could, but our local headquarters were closed down and refused to even return our calls, after going to Miami and contacting party members there we were told that the party was not getting actively involved with the recount effort, but were letting the system run it's course through the courts.

After gores concession speech, we tried to volunteer to help with the efforts to expose the fraud and again we were told the party was letting the courts do what was need to be done and that the party was focusing on local mid-term elections and only needed help in that area.

Beating bush is not going to be easy even with full party support and money, but unless dean can somehow mend fences with the party and somehow assure them that sweeping changes within the party aren't going to be his focus, the party will let dean lose rather than risk sweeping change.

I don't like dean, I don't want to see him get the nod, but I could live with him in office and will vote for him if given the nod, he alone can not beat bush and that is the bottom line, and alone is what he'll be unless he changes his direction yet again.

IMO one way to do this is to stop attacking the other candidates. Fight back, but don't fight first. And stop Attacking the party. Focus on the positive, not the negative.

First and foremost, I want bush out, Clark can do this, Clark can also create change at a level that will matter most to the people which will then force change within the party, and do this by focusing on the American people first.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[farmbo]

132. Clark will win...Resistance is futile...prepare to be assimilated. Not!

What a chuckle:
"The Dean people continue underestimate the profound concern among senior Democratic leadership that a Dean electoral disaster will be so great as to cripple the Party for a generation. Ego prevents Dean from realizing how dangerously weak he is."

Where to begin?

The Democratic Leadership HAS ALREADY crippled the Party for a generation. They're the problem; not the solution.

The rest of this vanity post is just goofy: Clark's nomination is inevitable...prepare to be assimulated...resistance is futile!

Clark is a brilliant man and a good candidate, but his nomination will assure a Bush victory. His fatal miscalculation to take federal matching funds (a whopping $3.7 million!?!) means he will be legally prohibited from spending money from April through August as the $200 million Rovian mudslide cascades down upon him.

Where are the grownups in his campaign?

[Patriot_Spear]

139. Look Wise Men, this is really VERY simple...

IF your candidate can beat Howard Dean in the primary, then let him do so. However, these 'gloom and doom' predictions on Dean's electability have absolutey NO IMPACT on my voting choice.

None.
Nada.
Nil.
Zero.
Zip.
Zilch.
Kein.
Non.

I see these 'commentaries' as low level attacks against Dean; meant to sow discord and doubt.

The bottom line: If you can't beat us in the primary to win the nomination, it is a foregone conclusion that in reality it was YOUR candidate that has an electability issue- not Howard Dean.

[stickdog]

140. Dean is the class of the field. Clark is the handpicked candidate of

the neoliberal globalist elite.

And Kerry self-destructed.

[JVS]

194. Annoyance to the enemies of the people!

death would be to much, don't you think?

[jmaier]

206. Wow.

I've never been called a neoliberal globalist elite before. This is news to me and the over 10,000 contributors who supported Wes Clark's $1m challenge. I guess this "elite" group is rather large.



Wes Clark. He will make an extraordinary American President.

[PATRICK]

147. kind of wild-

Perhaps "possible" outcome would have been more considerate. From there the dogmatic apporach skips past some extraordinary insider credentials to reveal what Clinton is doing behind the scenes and how awesomely powerful that is. I take note that the Clintons have been fairly generous to many candidates, many who went on to lose big as like or not. Somewhere it is implied the Gore/Clinton rift is evidence that our last President must obviously be backing Clark.

This is one post that needs not just challenging but rethinking. A discussion of the two man race and personal strengths and witnessess(still conjectural until the votes are counted) would be dull stuff, but it is all we have.

We are blessed/cursed in this party with no great monolith or shibboleth that will scatter enemies to your candidate like chaff before the tempest. That is why the goading right wing corporate media has as much pull as anyone in the Party organization- if not more. It ironically does some disservice to the candidates who must rise and fall on their own. We always see in our party(sometimes even in the other)that money and influence can't make the lesser man win. Only a savvier and luckier campaign can offset someone in a fairly level field. Think of a primary with our past Presidents(pretend they never were presidents before) and think who would win with their respective personas and organizaitons and message. Carter, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton. Throw in FDR although that is getting a bit dated. In our time, who would win?
And imagine our anxieties if he did! It would be Clinton or Kennedy probably. Whatever the polls none of the top four have the character of also rans yet. All would have given some past presidents and strong candidates a run for their money.


Nothing is certain except possibly in retrospect. I hope only for two things. That the candidates can get out their best fairly for the electorate to see- and that electorate gets a fair perspective on each. You don't necessarily have to have great revelations of the negative to get the same results.

Then we vote. Because of the competition and the stakes it is nervewracking, but that changes nothing except our blood pressure.

[WiseMen]

151. A Dean Nomination is Not Feared by Big-Media or Republicans

In fact it is viewed as the best of all outcomes. There would be
a high-ratings GE with the odds favoring Bush (in there view).

Some have argued that it has not been accidental that Dean was
give maximun prominence in the race at a certain point in time.

It may be counter-intuitive, they may be wrong but believe me the right-wing wants Dean.

[CivilRightsNow]

149. Good job...not

Trying to subvert the masses and all.

Let the people decide, stop pushing your propaganda of negativity down their throats. Educate, dont pontificate.

[WiseMen]

154. Facing Truth about how Media and Political Power Works is NOT Pessimism

Giving into a Bush 04 victory is pessimism. We should all be
fierce and happy warrior regardless of the Nominiee. Bush is
enough reason to fight.

[Hep]

152. Raw Dung will replace pizza as the favorite food among youngsters

You heard it from DU first!

[JVS]

192. Who'd a thunk it?

[Padraig18]

153. May I borrow your crystal ball when you're done with it, WiseMen?

Whistling through the cemetery, while your candidate implodes... :eyes:

[WiseMen]

163. I support the Democratic Party against Bush, Whomever the Nominee.

Unfortunately, you need about 20 years of practice to use my
crystal ball. There must be other crystal balls available that come
with a quick-start option. Check Ebay.

[Padraig18]

168. Yours is due for a tune-up.

Because it's malfunctioning badly. :P

[Cheswick2.0]

156. maybe you should submit this to Truth Out

I don't think it will fly here.

[JNelson6563]

175. I think TO learned their lesson

Running attack pieces on Dem candidates ain't such a ho tidea. ;-)

Julie

[Zomby Woof]

159. ah yes

One of my favorite voices of reason in the campaign to stop Dean. :thumbsup:

[Larkspur]

162. Clark is a horrible campaigner and that's one reason why Clinton

hasn't endorsed him since the Gore endorsement. Clark's poll numbers are descending because he can't live up to the media hype that he entered the race with. Clark also made major tactical errors that a Clinton endorsement won't help with -- like losing the AFSCME endorsement to Dean.

Al Gore made a great choice. Dean is a great campaigner and a fighter. Clark is boring on the trail. I saw him on C-Span and the general was doing a good job trying to put his audience to sleep.

[shivaji]

170. The Dean/Clark Feud will NOT be resolved here on DU

Very few, if any, minds will be changed by reading DU posts.

Dean will vanquish Clark in the real world of actual voters voting.

The reasons are many, but I will list just a few:

Dean has much more experience running campaigns. Clark has ZERO.
Dean has won every election he ever ran in. Clark has ran in ZERO elections.
Dean has won SIX times straight. Clark has won ZERO.
Dean has picked the best and brightest campaign team. Clark is
recycling Clinton leftovers.
Dean has the most energy in his campaign. Clark's best hope is to steal a few votes from repugs. Problem is Clark will lose 10 times
as many votes from a de-energized base than he hopes to steal from repugs.
Dean coorectly opined against attacking Iraq without full UN support and since no link has been proven between 911 and Saddam. Clark was first for Iraq war as a CNN analyst. Then he waffled and turned against.
Dean has the endorsement of the most important democrat so far, Al Gore. Clark can't get endorsement even from his retired 4-star general colleagues/bosses after spending a lifetime in military. Even his Arkansas buddy Bill Clinton will not endorse him.
Dean has instituted a state wide health care system. Clark is still reading books on what a health care system is.
Dean has actually balanced state budgets. Clark is still reading books on what a budget is and how to balance it.

[BillPhi]

230. Oh Get Real!

Let's assume that this race comes down to Clark and Dean:

Wesley Clark will win because he doesn't have "a hole in my resume" regarding foreign policy. Dean does; indeed that quote belongs to him.

Wesley Clark will win because the budget he balanced while SACEUR was roughly 3 times that of Vermont's.

Wesley Clark will win because he is on record as being against the war from the beginning, documented by his testimony to Congress and the two books he authored prior to entering the race.

Wesley Clark will win because he has raised money at the same pace as Dean, despite only being in the race for three months.

Wesley Clark will win because he has not separated the Democratic field into "us vs. them" as Dean has.

Wesley Clark will win because he was responsible for the health care of every soldier under his command, giving him practical and real experience in how to administer health care.

There are many other reasons why Wesley Clark will win. The insults and venom that is spewed by Clark's fellow Democrats is outrageous, at least until I remember that it's mostly coming not from the "Democratic wing of the Democratic party" but rather the "Green wing of the Democratic party". The Greens and the Democrats are two separate parties, of course, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[shivaji]

241. Happy New Year U2....but I must point out some flaws in your post

Clark did not "balance" budget while SACEUR.....Clark was required by law to spend not a single penny more than authorized by his bosses. Dean had the option of raising taxes or borrowing money both of which options Clark DID NOT HAVE at his disposal.

As for the health care issue, Clark was simply following whatever medical facilities and budgets were assigned by the military high command. That is in no shape or form as instituting a STATE WIDE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM which had to paid by taxes, and was not commanded down to Dean, but instead was at his own instigation and support.

[Hep]

171. Yes, let's ignore all the impressive facts

The 130,000+ contributors, the leading in the polls, the fundraising success. Let's ignore all that and ASSume he's going to lose the nomination.

[Raya]

219. Be Honest. Do you remember a candidate who more people felt will loose GE?

[bowens43]

222. Yes

Bill Clinton

[Hep]

238. Be honest?

Have I ever cared what chicken littles who think they have special powers think? Nope. Will I ever? Nope.

[Hep]

172. dupe

n/t

[Myra]

173. I've been adjusted to that outcome for weeks.

And I'm going with the candidate who vows to enforce
voting rights for all Americans.

[Hawkeye-X]

257. Clark fails to understand voting rights

PAPER TRAILS PEOPLE!

Clark fails to mention on his speech regarding the paper trails for voters, and also fails to mention the Rush Holt bill.

:eyes:

Hawkeye-X

[TexasSissy]

176. Okay. I'll adjust to that.

Actually, I already HAD adjusted to that. I believe wholeheartedly that the candidate that I support, who really IS the best person among the candidates to lead this country, will win the nomination.

He's not as loud, he's not as grumpy, he's not as rich as Dean, and he's not as controversial (and therefore makes for good political pundit shows), but his supporters are out there, like the cars on a train.

Chug, Chug, chug.....all the way to the voting booths. Quietly and unobtrusively we will cast our votes, and the joke will be on the pundits who "called" the race as early as October 2003.

[Don Claybrook]

179. Sorry I'm late to the thread

I just thought I might be able to buy some of the primo stuff you're smoking, it being New Year's Eve and all. I've been pretty high before, but I never completely lost touch with reality, you know, like smelling colors and tasting sounds and thinking Dean won't win the party's nomination, that sort of thing.

How long does it take to wear off, by the way?

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

184. high on the smell of money, honey

15 million this quarter, Raised in the most populist means possible. Yeah, I'm giddy allright . At the prospect we actually will be able to TAKE THIS COUNTRY BACK!!!

[Capn Sunshine]

180. gotta go with "WTF are you smokin' ??" on this

I suppose if you locked Will Pitt in a room with two dozen monkeys and a word processor and deprived them allof sleep by playing high-volume speeches of Joh Kerry, they might eventually write the Bible

or a similar post to this.

Wake UP, man! Prepare for the REAL WAR! :nuke:

BUSH IS THE ENEMY, NOT HOWARD DEAN!

[TLM]

188. HAHAHAHA Can we say desperation....

Dean is not a strong candidate... well I can think of another 15 million reason that you're wrong. In fact the reason you're all in a tissy and posting this crap is that Dean is about to break yet another fund raising record... while Kerry has to mortgage his home.


"Kerry was urged by his Campaign manager to respond strongly to Dean from the early days but refused to sign-off on attacks, which would have hobbled Dean early by nailing him to his anti-welfare, anti-environment, Corporate Tax-Break Vermont record."

Sounds to me like Kerry made the right call on that one, since putting out ads that lied about the situation to the very people living in that situation would only backfire. Hard to sell someone who got back on their feet and got a decent job thanks to Dean;s welfare reform that Dean was against them. Also hard to tell folks who saw Dean protect more land than all VT governors before him, pass strict clean air laws, and slow sprawl to a crawl that he was anti-environment.

Sounds like you're mad at Kerry for not lying about Dean.


"Kerry’s IWR vote was not a crippling issue until Dean's jumped onto the strategy of co-opting the anti-war movement and using the IWR vote to further discredit Kerry in the harshest of terms."

Kerry's IWR vote was crippling the moment he cast the damn thing.

And if his vote didn't do him enough damage, his flip flopping afterward really sealed the deal.

[windansea]

197. Clinton wing of the Democratic Party intends to stop him

yep...and you don't need a crystal ball to figure this one out

Clarks rope a dope strategy is well thought out...

Dean and Trippi are about to find out how the game is played in the major leagues

[many a good man]

198. Question about Clinton Wing Thing

Now obviously HD made a name for himself by opposing the party leadership who refused to vigorously take on Bush* and led to a disastrous midterm election. Obviously there's a battle for control over the direction of the party. Obviously many Clintonites adore Clark but...

What evidence is there that Clinton hates Dean and wants him stopped? What is it about Dean's policies that are so inimical to those of the Clinton White House?

Clinton pioneered the "Third Way" movement and helped Dems regain power. It was a successful strategy for that time and place, despite the lingering problems caused by deregulation and neoliberal trade policy. How do we know that Dean isn't right that NOW is the time and place to reject the triangulation/accommodation strategy?

Personally, I don't see that Dean is offering all that much of a break from Bill Clinton's record. Fiscal responsibility. Incremental expansion of access to health care and education. Internationalist foreign policy objectives. Containment of Saddam and focus on OBL.

For a man I don't find particularly charismatic, Dean has energized a lot of Democrats. Even more than Clinton, I would dare say, at least based on contributions and volunteerism. Whatever his faults, the guy has MOJO. I am very curious about what the Big Dog's private ruminations are about the Dean phenomenon...

[Raya]

209. Hey, I got here late. But I would love to know Billy's take on Dean too

[many a good man]

236. You might be interested in this Blumenthal article...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1114376,00.html

He was a senior advisor to Clinton and wrote the book The Clinton Wars.

There are two threads started about this article:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=48705

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=47750

[Tom Rinaldo]

199. Overstating a case is usually a foolish thing to do

At the very best that is what you have done here. Dean is the favorite because he has earned the support needed to be the favorite. It's a short primary cycle, bandwagons do exist, and it wouldn't take long for one to really get rolling if Dean continues to do well through a few weeks of primaries. You know I support Clark, and I think Clark has a reasonable chance to win. That's as far as I will go down that road with you. Why minimize the impressive accomplishments of Dean and his supporters?

[TexasPatriot]

210. bravo

Dean's supporters have run a good campaign - and it remains to be seen if there is a ceiling to Dean's support. In the mean time - it's silly to make assertions like 'get over it, so and so is out'

[Myra]

202. I've seen how Clark and Dean respond when provoked

Clark is composed and in command.
Dean is petulant and flippant.
It should be interesting watching the two men match wits.

Gotta love that West Point debate team!

[robbedvoter]

208. Who took the risk to oppose the war whan it wasn't fashionable?

These are the voices that Mark Fiore heard in 2002 (with one thrown for comical effect).
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/dissent.html
There's a candidate at the end - and it's not HD! I remember and collected every article on the war in 2002 - never heard of HD.
As for adjusting to the truth Wise men btings here, the solution is in my sig line (no, not the baby)

[genius]

213. I hope not because it would mean four more years of Bush.

THere are a lot of stupid Democrats following him around. Let's hope they wake up before they vote.

[WiseMen]

215. WiseMen Strongly Supports Dean IF He becomes the Nominee

I believe Dean's support is sincere. The campaign strategy and execution as well as the Media dynamics naturally leads to the strong position Dean is currently in and they are right to be excited about their success.

Dean has been a solid Governor and could likely make as good President as many.

The challenge is really to the Party leadership, who are now evaluating (a bit late to be frank) the likely result of a Dean nomination and what step to take as necessary.

[shivaji]

214. If I see 1 more time "Clark is more electable" I will throw up, because..

Clark will steal very few votes from the repug side.
Our most respected president Truman made that eminently clear
when he said "when given a choice between a republican and a republican lite, they (republicans) will vote the republican every time".

But what the Clark voters forget is that dems will lose 10 times more votes because Clark does not and can not energize the base voters like Dean can. All Rove has to do is show snipetts of Clark praising Bush*co and the base voters will wonder why they should drag their butt from the couch in front of the TV and go vote for this guy who is praising the heck out of Bush, and who is nothing but a repug-lite!

[Duder]

218. Don't worry

Dean has the nomination locked up.

[Gloria]

224. Not necessarily if he keeps gaffing, as he has done again...twice.

They used to talk about Clinton "parsing" every word. Well, the anti-CLinton Dean is not parsing, but "backing and filling" an awful lot lately.

He seems to have a statement for every other candidate that he has to go back and defend.

Dean is beginning to turn my stomach. He doesn't seem to know when to shut up and what the effect of his words may be.
He's giving the GOP so much fodder, it's ridiculous.

Gore "lied," was the meme in 2000. At the rate things are going, you can see Gore and Dean, joined at the hip, and both "liars". It's "deja vu all over again"....

[jsw_81]

226. "Dean will not get the Nomination. Let’s Adjust to That Likely Outcome"

What color is the sky in your world?

[Hawkeye-X]

258. probably

brown...

Hawkeye-X

[burning bush]

229. Ok, "Wisemen" But If /When Dean DOES Get The Nomination -

Will you come back to this forum and kiss some Dean supporter ass, er, I mean apologize?

[BillPhi]

231. That won't be necessary.

Dean will not win the nomination. After campaigning for two years, he really should have more than 20% or so of Democrats on board, non? Spin away if you must, but you are welcome to Clark's camp when the nomination is won.

My last post on the subject.

:boring:

[Hawkeye-X]

259. Uhh..

No, I won't. Clark has zero chance whatsoever to win the nomination.

Many people have pointed over and over again.

1) Clark is boring - he made me fall asleep watching CSPAN in the middle of the day. I only woke up because my dog was busy licking my ear.

2) He doesn't really inspire/excite the base. He's been a Democrat for only few months. Dean has been a Dem for more than 30 years.

3) Rove has more ammo on Clark than Clark having more ammo on *.

4) Remember Truman's quote? "A choice between a Republican and Republican lite -- Republican every time"

That's all I gotta say...

Hawkeye-X

[TexasSissy]

232. It's suprising how many people think

that an early lead is the end all and be all. As if they've totally forgotten how often the early leader fizzles out. This is true in the nomination process, as well as the general election.

Wait until the general election...all those who support calling the nomination at this early date will be crying up a storm at the media calling the election for Bush before any votes are cast for that, as well.

[Walt Starr]

233. I've adjusted to the proposed meme

I donated to Dean's campaign. This is the first time I have ever donated to a candidate in the year before the election.

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raya]

237. Dean NEEDS you Money. Has to Spend 5-to-1 to Win

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raya]

243. This analysis looks more reasonable by the newscast

[lariokie]

244. Self Destruction

I watch in Shock and Awe, to borrow a phrase from our favorite war mongers, as the Democratic Party chews off its own foot rather than be caught with it in its mouth. That was a very thoughtful piece of punditry there WiseMen. You tell it almost as though you believe somone will fall for it.

The Clinton-Wing as you have described it has already fallen on their swords with Lieberman. If indeed Dean has all those blemishes you suggest, one need not look far to see that Clark has him trumped in that department. I believe it was Clark who has voted Republican in the last 3 of 4 elections.

You underestimate the Dr. But I won't belabor the point because the likelihood of me changing your mind is probably as good as yours is in changing mine.

But that was certianly a fine stab at it. Here is what the Bushies think about it all (taken from Time, Dec. 31):

White House and campaign officials say they are not concerned about the Democrats drowning out Bush as the rhetoric from the primaries and caucuses reaches its crescendo in the next three months.

For one thing, Bush's official events will command a spotlight, and they won't cost his re-election treasury a dime. And right now, the Democrats are attacking each other with such ferocity that Bush hardly has to weigh in on their records

[Walt Starr]

250. Let's get brutally honest, shall we?

First of all, there isn;t anybody on the fucking face of the planet capable of calling this one yet. Yeah, right now Dean is number one and it looks like Clark is number two. If history tells us anything about the fucking Democratic Party, that doesn't mean bullshit.

For all the fuck we know, Al Sharpton could be at that podium come the convention as our nominee. Stranger shit has gone on in this party, Clinton being an obvious example.

So don't tell me who the fuck "will" and "will not" be the nominee because I've met those people with crystal balls and tarot cards who do "psychic readings" and I know for a fucking fact nobody can tell me shit about what's going to happen in the fucking future. For all the fuck we know, Kerry could end up in a small plane crash and Lieberman wins the nomination because of some letter that shows up afterwards and gets read at the man's funeral.

It's up in the fucking air right now. Nobody knows with absolute certainty who the fuck will win the nomination, so I am not adjusting shit.

[Sensitivity]

261. Two Weeks to Go Clark still down Dean going Strong

[NV1962]

262. One hyphenated word in response: "grass-roots"

I don't believe I can honestly claim a "legitimate" backing for "my" preferred candidate, without honestly acknowledging the success of Howard Dean in galvanizing support for his project.

I certainly happen to believe that Wes Clark presents the strongest ticket - but it'll be a cold day in hell when I forego the essence of democracy in an appeal to "logic" - just to "prove" the validity of my choice.

Let's leave democracy doing its work: likelyhood and electability aren't determined by spreadsheets, but by the collective of individual citizens voting with their feet and their wallet.

Howard Dean isn't "dead" - nor is democracy. We'd better prove at least one of those two right!

Now, forget all I said and just support Wes Clark. :evilgrin:

[kerrygoddess]

263. Very interesting

Wisemen

This is a very intersting post and your insight about Clark/Clinton is insight that I too, have heard from other sources.

I'm a Kerry supporter. I feel that John Kerry is the most qualified and electable candidate. He has a solid background of standing up to special interest unlike Dean who claims to want to but has a career of supporting special interest.

Special interest partisan's on both sides of the fence may be concerned about Kerry's platform to end special interest. This theory makes sense given the knowledge that Clinton never really stoood up to special interest, nor did Gore.

With Clark or Dean in the White House it will remain the same old, same old. Special interest comes first. I hate to see this perpetuate on and on.

Clark's platform was provided by Clintonite's and contrived from Kerry's. Dean is weak on the issues and is running for Dean not to give power to the people.

I strongly urge everyone who cares about the fate of our nation to take a good long look at Kerry and his stance on the issues. Put the war vote aside and look at what he HAS done for our country and what he has to offer.

[WiseMen]

264. Welcome Kerrygoddess. Great input here. How do you think Kerry can

overcome the Official Story.

[kerrygoddess]

265. Well that's just it, it's not the official story

The official story is spin against Kerry.

"An ancient said, "The mouth sould be used for eating rather than speaking," because there are taboos about what can be said; "the mouths of the masses can melt metal," because words have nuances that can be twisted." - Thunder In The Sky

Kerry is by far the most electable candidate.

What we here on the internet percieve as a strong base for other candidates may not be the actuality of the movement for other candidates on the ground where still the large percentage of the voters does use the internet to forge decisions about candidates.

Kerry's strength is in his stance on the issues and everyday more people wake up to his message and hear his call.

It is wrong to put strength behind media spin so early in the game or to heed the call of some who say that the race should be over because one candidate has pushed ahead. There has been in nearly every race for the White House a frontrunner who falls behind and one who comes from behind to surprise the masses.

I am no campaign advisor but I feel that John Kerry is overcoming the official story and the "other" story is crumbling like a piece of old dried up bread.

[Terwilliger]

270. The Clinton wing of the Democratic party?? You mean Republicans??

:eyes:

[WiseMen]

271. Check Latest Polls in NH and National: Operation On Track

I don't know whether it is best for all but, as I said when I first
posted this, there is a operation under way that most Dean supporters do not grasp, but need to reconcile with soon. Otherwise, the damage to the party could be catastrophic.

[Padraig18]

272. We hear and obey, O' Wise One...

Whatever... :eyes:

[WiseMen]

273. We all have to Deal with it. Lot of what's going on pretty distrubing

[Padraig18]

274. it's only disturbing to non-Dean supporters, and not even them always.

This whole 'gloom and doom' scenario is laughable for one fundamental and undeniable reason: no one knows what what will be on the voters' minds come November--- no one. Let DEMOCRATS make the decision about who we want to lead our party, and not some irrational fear of *, a mortal and thoroughly beatable man.

[kerrygoddess]

275. That is the point

Dean would like all democrats to choose him. Not all democrats want to choose Dean. The rally behind the frontrunner is already showing it's signs of weakness and there are many, many reason. Wisemen is pointing out yet one of them.

Many in the know members of the democratic party are fully aware of the scenario that Wisemen has shared here. Only Dean supporters with closed minds discount it, as they discount other viable candidates.