Dean Can't Win

[maxanne]

As always, TT is right on. :D

[Bombtrack]

1. what's this like the 5th time this has been posted?

[maxanne]

3. sorry

I've been away at a funeral for a few days.

I'm biting back a wicked rude reply.

[Padraig18]

2. Hehe!

:P

[Jack_Dawson]

4. Jokes aside, it's true

WILLIAM SAFIRE: "....frankly I'm all for Dean. I want to see him
become the Democratic nominee because I think that would be a McGovern
candidacy. I think that would lead to a Republican landslide." (11/07/03)

My opinion: I agree. It's just one of many, many quotes by conservative pundits along the same lines. Funny...haven't seen equivalent quotes about a Clark nomination.

[maxanne]

5. who

really gives a rat's rectum about what William Safire thinks? He's a right wing tool.

[Bombtrack]

9. republicans give a rats rectum what he has to say

the kind who have money and the ability to vote in a primary, whether it requires them to become independants or not(which many of them already are registered as).

[Padraig18]

15. So?

BFD...:shrug:

[Bombtrack]

21. a sabotaged primary is a BIG FUCKING DEAL

and you're indifference to it, along with all the dean-supporters indifference, or denial to it, is pretty awful

[Padraig18]

24. Get a GRIP, man!

I live in an open primary state. YOUR only worry is that the people who vote won't vote for YOUR guy. :eyes:

[Jack_Dawson]

28. Why aren't pukes encouraging their own to vote CLARK?

Find me one instance - ANYWHERE - where pukes are trying to tilt things in favor of Clark. ONE instance!

Is it just a coincidence it keeps happening w/ Dean. C'mon folks you can't be that naive, can you?

[Padraig18]

30. Quit calling us naive, #1.

We're not. Has it ever occured to you tghat moderate Republicans don't LIKE Bush, and are looking for a moderate Democrat they could support? :eyes:

[Jack_Dawson]

33. Clark can win mods, Dean can't

[Padraig18]

34. Garbage!

Dean's campaign ALREADY has moderates, independents, Greens, etc. . "Waiter, reality check for the Dawson party!" :eyes:

[maxanne]

52. that explains

why so many Republicans in my area are working for the Dean campaign.

:eyes:

BTW - the guy who is heading up the local Clark campaign is a Republican.

[bowens43]

54. Win the battle

and lose the war, no thanks.

[Melodybe]

51. So true, Dean balancing budgets means a lot to repubs

ALL of my repub friends actually LIKE Dean. Not in the he'll lose to Bush way, either, they will actually vote for him.

[Bombtrack]

31. no that isn't true, any major candidate would be better than Dean

althought Gephardt wouldn't be much better, the others are leaps and bounds better equipped to take on Bush, and are better people period

[Padraig18]

38. Purely YOUR *o-p-i-n-i-o-n*!

Opinions are like anal orfices--- everyone has one, and they all stink. :eyes:

[Bombtrack]

47. who's "opinion" do you want about physics, Steven Hawking or Carrottop?

Prominent republican operatives in the media and elsewhere are professing a desire to have Dean nominated. These include mostly peoples who's job it is to get republicans elected. Most of them(the republican political apparattus) are successful, as evidenced by the republican parties poltical dominence in America, despite the fact that there party as I'm sure we can all agree, is bad for regular Americans.

The theory of many Dean-supporters, that it's mass reverse psychology and they would actually prefur a different candidate(which they never tell you who it is), makes almost no sense. Republican audiences of republican voices aren't going to help people other than Dean get the nomination, they're going to , and are, helping Dean

[bowens43]

56. They have you snowed.

Even if they don't Clark isn't an option. If the choice is between bush and Clark , it doesn't really matter who wins.

[bowens43]

55. Evidence?

no?

[HFishbine]

29. What is there to deny

other than inuendo, insinuation, and unsubstantiated speculation?

[maxanne]

20. if we're so concerned

about what the poor monied Republicans want, than why don't we just vote for Bush?

[Bombtrack]

25. we shouldn't allow them to chose their opposition

that's what Hannity gets to do.

They don't want to face Kerry, Clark, or Edwards

and they'd even rather face Dean than Lieberman

but nominating a middle class income tax raiser with other huge flaws like Dean or Gephardt is doing them a huge favor

[Myra]

10. Er, that's sorta the point. The right wing tools are pulling for Dean.

Big time. Ted Koppel, Wm Safire. Every "pundit" on...Hardball.

Red flag, much?

[Jack_Dawson]

12. LOL

Totally. Why don't people get it? It's right there in front of you.

[FubarFly]

27. Ah, I see you've fallen for the

double mojo reverse spin major juju psych-out.

:eyes:

[bowens43]

59. Nope. Not a red flag at all.

No candidate has the widespread support that Dean has. Some Democrats seem to forget that we don't need the votes of the Republicans to win.


BTW if you really believe that these guys aren't afraid of a Dean candidacy I have some ocean front property in Kansas you might interested in.....

[Padraig18]

6. Safire has no crystal ball.

He has no better idea than I do whether or not Gov. Dean can win.

[Bombtrack]

13. is your job politics? Do you know 50 percent of the prominent pollsters

and strategists who matter most? People like Saffire, or people like Carville and Begala on our side, do tend to have a better handle on these things than even the average politics junky

[Padraig18]

Meadow muffins

But, if we take your theory, why doesn't Kerry drop out now? According to the POLLS he as less chance at becoming our nominee than I do.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. and that is why the cartoon is so funny

Clarks Supporters don't get it.

[OrAnarch]

8. I agree, we need a leader strong on terrorism and foreign affairs...

Lets pander as far right as possible, skip the general, and go straight for asking people in the Bush administration to run for us! Then we will never lose!

[Jack_Dawson]

14. Except Clark plays well w/ others, unlike Bush & Co.

[maxanne]

17. yep

He sure does. That's why the board is filled with members from "Generals for Clark." :eyes:

[Jack_Dawson]

22. Generally, Generals are Republican

And the republicans Clark answered to didn't care for his whole "saving 1.5 million Albanians" thing. So...I guess if you want to take their side I can't stop you...

www.clarkmyths.com

[maxanne]

26. you're right

generals are Republican. They vote for guys like Nixon, Reagan, and Bush.

[Jack_Dawson]

32. Cool we agree

Generally, Generals would not vote for Clinton (twice) and Gore. OH that's right, unless they've been lifelong Demos they are DINOs. The enlightenment revisited.

[OrAnarch]

18. Exactly...He's soft on people!

With the treasonous liberals around us, we must also pander on that right-wing issue too like all the other issues his candidacy panders on.

[Democrats unite]

23. You forgot Dean & company also.

eom

[bowens43]

60. Really?

That's not what his coworkers say.

[Bombtrack]

16. yeah, those far-right politicians like John Kerry

if a guy who gets a 4 from the ACU is far-right, there is no word to describe how warped your ideology is.

I just use Kerry as an example. because other than Lieberman, none of Dean's opposition is really to his right

[bowens43]

58. Good plan!

Who better to run against bush then Cheney or Ashcroft? Somebody contact these guys!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. why no same opinion on clark

whether you want to admit it or not the conservative media has already determined that Dean is currently the bigger threat ...if clark were to win the nomination you will see the exact same attacks on clark...i am surprised that as liberals we are so very credulous as to believe that somehow william safire is writing something that benefits liberals

[Jack_Dawson]

36. GOP is afraid of Clark

That's why they keep saying they want Dean. Has there been one (1) instance of the conservative media saying they would rather face Clark?

[bowens43]

61. ROFLMAO!!

yeah, that's it.

[maxanne]

50. we liberals aren't

I don't find most Clark supporters to be liberals.

[ima_sinnic]

43. the repukes don't have a clue about Dean

Let them think he is "another McGovern." see this article from back in July to see how they have their heads up their rear ends: Why Howard's Not George, by Mike McArdle
Supplement that with 1972--Muskie, Wallace & McGovern for an even more complete understanding of how the situation with Howard Dean cannot begin to be compared with the campaign of someone 31 years ago. Absolutely everything is different. The reason repukes ARE repukes is that they can't see beyond their little black & white safe worlds where everything happens the way it always did. They want Dean? They're gonna get Dean & be better off for it.

[bowens43]

53. Of course not, they're not afraid of Clark.

Clark is an insignificant blip on the radar, Dean is a WMD heading right down their throats.

[FubarFly]

11. Hehe

I love Tom Tomorrow.

:loveya:

[tedoll78]

19. Dean can indeed win.

Gore states equal 260EVs. Dean's nomination would pretty much lock-up most of the northeast and the west coast. Of the Gore states, Dean would need to concentrate on:
OR/NM/IA/MN/MI/PA.
It's of incredible benefit that Nader isn't running as a Green. This 1/2/3% will help immensely in holding-onto most of those states. Dean's NRA credentials will help with most of them also.

We then should focus on these states that Bush barely won, worth 30EVs: OH/NV/WV.
If we win any two plus the Gore states, we win the whole thing.
(I would consider Florida, but I don't trust Jeb any more than I can throw him.)

- Ohio is economically wrecked. Tons of job losses in the manufacturing sector. And again, the NRA wouldn't be breathing down our neck.
- WV isn't doing so hot job-wise. And Dean won't be labeled an enviro-whacko like Gore. And once again, the NRA will be neutered.
- We should milk Yucca Mountain in NV for everything it's worth. Also keep in mind that Las Vegas is one of the nation's most rapidly-expanding metropolises in the country.. a good GOTV operation there is essential. Senator Harry Reid's re-election is looking really solid right now; the GOP can't find a good candidate against him, which could really demoralize their base in this state.

But we should also force Bush to spend time and money in the South. Which is where some campaign trickery comes into the picture. It's not illegal, but it is shady and will require tight lips within the Dean campaign.

We fake interest in certain southern states. Those states are:
FL/LA/AR/TN.
Here's how we fake the Bush team out:
- The campaign "leaks" false polling numbers once in a while showing the race there too close to call; this will trigger doubt in the Bush team's mind, and more resources will be directed there.
- The VP nominee spends 1/3 of his/her time there in those states, as a decoy. The media will be following that person everywhere (s)he goes, and will help convey the idea that we aren't ceding these areas.
- The campaign carefully coordinates the release of video publicity footage of its workers and volunteers supposedly "swarming" these states. Registering voters, going from door-to-door.. that kinda thing. If the Bush campaign sees us doing this, they will feel the need to at least match it.
- We advertise on TV nominally. A small budget. And we claim that money that would otherwise go to TV ads is instead going to GOTV operations.
- We let residents of these states take their areas into their own hands. The Dean campaign has been extremely successful with ceding power to local control. That way, if these residents are well-organized, we actually have a shot at one or two of them.

For the 9 states above, we need a world-class GOTV operation. George Soros and ACT is concentrating their millions on GOTV ops in 19 of the closest states, so that will help. And if Dean is the nominee and this pattern of him bringing new people into the voting process holds, we could see 3 or 4 million brand new voters at the polls next year. (I have the distinct feeling that this election will be another 50-50 deal, and that those few million voters will make a difference.)

The Blue and Reds are returning from post-9/11 unity back to their polarized states. Bush's approval rating as an average across the country is only high because the red states keep it from sinking. If we remove the solid Red States from the average calculations, his approval/re-election average sinks like a stone. And what's more, recent polls show independent voters wary of re-electing Bush - Good news for whomever our nominee is.

I honestly think that Dean can win this whole thing. Certain conservative elements of his record, the probability of new voters participating, the help of Soros & ACT, , a fired-up Dem base (allowing Dean flexibility to pursue the Mushy Middle), the certainty that Dean's campaign will be better-run than ours in 2000.. things aren't as glum as many would paint them to be. Gore was 10 to 15% behind Bush for most of 1999 and 2000.. we can do this.

[CreamyGoodness]

37. Why do some Democrats insist on believing GOP tools?

Yeah, we should all listen to Safire and other GOP mouthpieces and simply abandon the Democratic frontrunner, who happens to be an experienced, winning campaigner and who has the greatest amount of grassroots support and has successfully raised the most money and who has successfully attracted hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of disaffected voters back to the Democratic Party.

Yeah, we should all do what Safire says and commit political suicide.

[Padraig18]

39. They listen to them because they say bad things about Dean.

And they don't support Dean, ergo, they WANT them to be right. I call it the "Tooth Fairy" syndrome..

[FubarFly]

41. Pundititis:

The condition of being so worried about what other people think, that you stop thinking for yourself.

And yes, I believe it is an illness. :-(

[Padraig18]

42. It's rampant here at DU.

:shrug:

[FubarFly]

40. Welcome to DU, CreamyGoodness

:hi:

Another voice of reason is always welcome around here.

[Jack_Dawson]

44. By all means, vote for Dean

And enjoy another four years of Shrub.

[FubarFly]

45. Are you aware that your bellicose tactics may actually

hurt Clark? You don't win over potential supporters by implying that they are ignorant. Is this the kind of behaviour you are employing in the real world? You do want to defeat Shrub, don't you?

Sometimes I wonder...

[Jack_Dawson]

46. Shrub is Evil -

We must defeat him. That's why I want to put forth the strongest candidate possible. Nothing against your guy. I actually do like Dean. I just find it suspicious so many freepers are excited about facing him. You have to admit it's a little weird. Can you find one instance where the GOP media is excited about facing Clark?

Sorry if I come across as "bellicose" - I just have strong opinions as do Dean supporters. It's nothing personal. Happy New Year!

:toast:

[FubarFly]

48. Happy New Year to you as well.

Unlike most Dean supporters, I think many freepers are truly ignorant. That is why they are freepers. ;-)

If they think that Howard Dean is going to be a "McGovern type" pushover, then pity them. There are a lot more weapons in our arsenal then we have shown as of yet. This fight is something I take very seriously and I would not be supporting Dean if I wasn't absolutely convinced he could win. We have proved the naysayers wrong so far, and we will continue to do so.

And for the record, I think Clark is also electable.

Peace.

[CreamyGoodness]

49. Clark is a non-entity to FReeper types

Check out some of these comments from actual FReepers regarding Clark. Note that they don't seem to fear him at all:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1049215/posts

Clark Is to Get Matching Funds Of $3.7 Million

<article snipped>


To: visagoth
Talk about a waste of money. Any clown can run for president and we, the taxpayers, have to foot the bill.

2 posted on 12/31/2003 6:13:18 AM CST by Terry Mross


To: adam_az
I had no idea he was running.... I guess thats what the mainstream media will do to you.
This is from his website:
LaRouche is the only qualified candidate for U.S. President with a political movement representing what Franklin D. Roosevelt referred to as the "forgotten man," who is now facing ruin in the ongoing Global Depression and the Neo-con drive for perpetual war.

Great place for a good laugh.


7 posted on 12/31/2003 6:42:04 AM CST by visagoth (If you think education is expensive - try ignorance)

To: visagoth
He should put some money towards getting that Siamese eyebrow separated.

13 posted on 12/31/2003 8:58:20 AM CST by SpinyNorman


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1048596/posts

Clark cites Ark. values in South 'True Grits' trip has Clinton clip

To: GailA; WKB; bourbon; dixiechick2000; Hurricane; wardaddy
Clark, the first Democratic presidential candidate to stump in Mississippi in months, spoke to about 100 people in Jackson's War Memorial building.
"About" 100 people? That's all? How big a building is the War Memorial building in Jackson?

I'm trying to calculate his support. I'm thinking it's small.


4 posted on 12/30/2003 6:20:27 AM CST by onyx (Your secrets are safe with me and all my friends.)

To: GailA
The little Weasel was in Birmingham last night and I didn't know until today.

The Gen’ral

I‘d say that you’re invalid,
Even though you served.
The Clintons really like you,
That’s why I am unnerved.
You seem to be a sissy,
Too light in your old loafers.
I’d say it seems for Bill and Hill,
You’re just one of their gofers.
Retired your stars and that is best,
For you’ve not got a clue.
I’d vote for Sharpton, Gen’ral Clark,
Before I’d vote for you.

Conspiracy Guy 12/17/03

11 posted on 12/30/2003 6:50:17 AM CST by Conspiracy Guy (No words were harmed during the production of this tagline.)

[bowens43]

57. There are worse things then 4 more years of shrub

and a general who has been a democrat for less then 3 months is one of them.