Did I Just Hear Richard Holbrooke Explain Kerry's Iraq Plans Right?

[TheStateChief]

Watching Hardball a little earlier and Richard Holbrooke corrected Chris Matthews not once, but twice, to insist that Kerry isn't going to remove any troops from Iraq. Instead, he went into some detail about how Kerry is going to put control of the US troops in Iraq under the control of a foreign coalition and he then used Kosovo as his example of how Kerry intends to set it up (ostensibly to attrack foreign participation).

This is disappointing on a lot of different levels if true (and after Kerry publicly requested that the new Spainish PM reconsider removing their troops, I have to believe it is), but I know Holbrooke is a key Kerry advisor and I don't think he would go on TV and just fly solo.

[Melodybe]

1. I agree if that is the plan. Sorry we can not go in there, blow the place

up and then just leave. Look I did not support this war but we have a responsibily to the decent Iraqi civilians living there. If we leave now, then the Shittes will just take over and impose fundamentalist Muslim ideals on the entire nation. That means women get no rights and anti-American schools to boot.

I beg of you to think about the good things Kerry has done. He was not my first choice but he has been kicking ass lately and he is our only hope now. America will not last another 4 years of these scumbags. Look at the damage they have done in 4 years, they have made this country ripe with bigoted assholes. Just look at the county in Tenn, they think it is ok to ban gay people entirely. We can stop this, but we have to work together.

Kerry may not be your ideal but he has a good record on the environment, he outed Iran Contra, he helped us get out of Vietnam, and he stood up for Gore in 2000. Kerry may bring us back to the status quo of Bill Clinton but consider the alternative.

Bush 2004 = Nazi USA 2004

End of story.

[Jacobin]

38. Hmmm.

"We can't just go in there and blow up the place and then just leave"

On its face that statement is completely reasonable and very responsible.

On the other hand, the reality may be that we are considered infidels and that they do not want us there and will continue to creat havoc to eject us as invaders and occupiers.

Keep in mind that we DID just go into Vietnam, blow the place up and leave. And as soon as we left the country began healing and now appears to be quite peaceful and prosperous.

I think the highly vaunted sense we have of ourselves and the estimation that others just can't do without us has some racist roots and some serious ego issues that we as a nation need to deal with. I don't think these thoughts are very rational in the world, although it is pleasant to contemplate that we are somehow "indispensable".

Peace

[Feanorcurufinwe]

2. Holbrooke used Kosovo as an example of how a multinational effort

can be seen as having more legitimacy than a unilateral one.

[jfxgillis]

3. Yeah, well, if it's disappointing, deal with it

Things in Iraq are so fucked up, Kerry will be damned lucky if he can IMPROVE it to something like what Kosovo is now.

[kera]

4. About Kosovo just for your information

At least 15 people are now known to have died and 250 injured in violent clashes that erupted across Kosovo between ethnic Albanians and Serbs.



Clashes were reported on Wednesday from Mitrovica in the north to Urosevac in the south and Pec in the west as NATO peacekeeping troops scrambled to quell the outbreak.

"
Angry mobs
United Nations Kosovo police veteran Derek Chappell described it as "a very dangerous situation...very large scale."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/80E2825A-0BDD-44E8-B289-664C075...

[Jai4WKC08]

6. Been going downhill for about 3 years now...

Perhaps jfx should have said, "Kosovo like it was before Bush fucked that up too."

[nicecakes]

15. I missed the bush screwups in Kosovo

They must have sliped in under the radar. What were the screwups?

[Jai4WKC08]

17. What has Bush done to screw up Kosovo?

Nothing. That's the problem--he's done nothing.

It has always been a fragile peace, enforced by NATO troops (US included) and all the Bush administration has done is back away from NATO committments. Left the troops there, but no sustained engagement with either party, or with our NATO partners.

NATO has been the bedrock of our relationship with Europe for over 55 years, but this administration has no serious use for foreign alliances except so far as they advance the Repub political agenda.

[MessiahRp]

33. Very well put (eom)

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. True and that's exactly the same thing he did in Israel...

ignored it for 18 damn months. He let Clinton's 8 years of peace negotiations go up in smoke in 18 months......and look where we are now. Bush is a useless piece of shit...a waste of good air. IMCPO

[Jai4WKC08]

5. You heard right

But that's always been Kerry's position, hasn't it?

I know it was Clark's plan too. In fact, he specifically modeled his strategy after the Bosnia/Kosovo peacekeeping effort. Which, if you recall, Holbrooke was instrumental in setting up. I'm seeing a very real foreign policy team here.

Not sure what you were expecting...

[Leilani]

7. I thought Clark's plan was a little different

Put all civil & ruling authority in international hands (NATO), but keep US military under US Command.

Americans go beserk if our military is under foreign command. Does anyone remember when a soldier refused to fight under UN auspices, & he was courtmartialed?

There was a huge flap. But I don't know Kerry's plan.

[Jai4WKC08]

9. To tell the truth...

I don't know much more about Kerry's plan than what was posted here (only heard pieces of what Holbrooke said), and I was reacting more to not withdrawing forces right away, but forming a coalition for the overall effort.

But I did happen to be listening earlier today to Clark's Iraqi strategy, as presented at SC State Univ back in November. He proposed forming a coalition for the occupation and reconstruction, similar to what was done for the Balkans in 1995, with military command under NATO.
http://www.videos4clark.com/vidclips/SC_11_6_seg2.WMV

You're right about the perception that US forces don't serve under foreign command. But that's not the reality, and much of the flap over the soldier who refused to fight was pure Republican anti-Clinton propaganda.

I was in the 32nd Air Defense Command back in 1985-87, and had we gone to war, our units fell under the command of the 4th Allied Tactical Air Force, commanded by a German general. We trained that way, and our units did alerts under 4ATAF control. It's been that way for a long time, but it just never got tested until NATO went to war in Kosovo.

[Leilani]

10. Thanks Jai

for the clarification.

You're right about the anti-Clinton propaganda. We have to be aware of everything the repubs will throw at us.

[R3dD0g]

36. The no foreign command is just pure R bushit

During Operation Market Garden in WWII the XVIII US Airborne Corps (82nd & 101st airborne divs) were under the command of Gen Montgomery.

There are other examples too numerous to count. Nobody ever refuted this Repuke lie and it's now accepted as fact.

edit typos

[kera]

8. see

I hate to disappoint you but the situation in Iraq cannot be compared to that of Kosovo although there is some similarity with Kurdish situation . Both want Independence and are very happy to get help. Nationalism can be dealt with in only one way..

[peacehomosapiens]

11. Kerry & Holbrook

Which was is that, Kera?

[peacehomosapiens]

12. Kerry & Holbrook

I meant to say which "way" is that, kera? (about nationalism)

[kera]

25. living the country after loosing the war

[kera]

26. i meant leaving the country after having lost the war is the only way

I know of unlsess things have changed

[peacehomosapiens]

13. Kerry & Holbrook

I also heard Holbrook say that there is no difference between Bush and Kerry in regards to Iraq? What? I can't believe it. I think that Kerry will follow Bush's policies once he gets into the White House and the CIA gets a hold of him,just like it happened to Clinton with his China policy. What we need is another Zapatero like Spain. I think Kerry is going to cause us to loose big time. The man was Dean but the Clinton's with their friends in the media used Dean's "scream" in Iowa to derail him. After all Kerry and Bush are "Skull and Bones" one of Americas highest secret societies. The Clinton's also went to Yale. And Yale has always been the number one Ivy League recruting ground for the CIA. First Bush Sr. (CIA director and Skull and Bones), then Clinton, then Bush Jr. and now Kerry (Skull and Bones). We are screwed!

[sandnsea]

14. Dean's was the same too

Since we're there, we have to finish the job in Iraq. How is that different from Dean's position?

[IndianaGreen]

18. Kucinich is our Zapatero

Dennis will bring the troops home and not try to "Vietnamize" Iraq like Kerry and Bush will do.

If you guys wanted peace, you should have voted for Kucinich instead of Mr. Electable!

I am voting for Dennis in the May primary.

[Dhalgren]

21. Me too (in June primary).

I am sorry if this upsets people, here, but the whole idea of "finishing the job" is total bullshit. We are ingaged in a massive, on-going crime in Iraq. "Finishing the job" means more crimes and a completion of the major crime. If the US does not quickly end this adolescent belief that only we "the mighty, white, Americans" can save the day for these (or any) benighted "darkies", then it won't really matter who is president. "Anybody But Bush" has to mean someone different from Bush - and not just in certain, targetted domestic issues, but across the board; different in every way. All of these areas and issues are interconnected - domestic, foreign, economics, security, healthcare, education, freedom and liberty, justice - all connected. If Kerry is just going to continue Bush's policies, just do them "better", then he isn't really ABB, at all. Now, go ahead and kill me.

[Karmadillo]

16. I didn't hear Holbrook say there was no difference re: Iraq.

The policies of Kerry and Bush would seem to be significantly different inasmuch as one wants to create a genuine international coalition to try to salvage the mess Bush made while the other wants to continue with a unilateral disaster.

By the way, the last I checked, the Clintons weren't exactly loaded with "friends in the media", so you may be a little off base in attributing Dean's fall to their machinations.

[TheStateChief]

23. How will the lack of public support internationally change under Kerry?

Can someone please explain to me how the war becomes any more legal under Kerry? Also, do any of you really think that the 90% of the rest of the world's population that is against the war are going to suddenly be for it if Kerry is president? Kerry may change the minds of some governments, but I don't see how he changes the minds of the people without withdrawing the troops and ending this mess.

[sangh0]

29. You are confused

While many were opposed to the INVASION of Iraq, there is not nearly as much opposition to restoring sovereignty to the Iraqis. You are conflating opposition to the invasion, with opposition to the occupation.

Most European nations would be happy to help occupy Iraq. They just don't want to do it under a US flag. They want to do it under the UN. Bush* has refused to give the authority to the UN. Kerry has said he will give the UN the authority to handle the occupation and the subsequent return of sovereignity

on edit: I just read an article in another thread that perfectly reflects how some nations distinguish between the invasion and the occupation:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&u=/afp/20040318/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_poland_weapons_040318165536&printer=1

Poland 'taken for a ride' over Iraq's WMD: President

"In a first sign of official criticism in Poland of the US-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites), President Aleksander Kwasniewski said that his country had been "taken for a ride" about the alleged existence of weapons of mass destruction in the strife-torn country.

"That they deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride," Kwasniewski said Thursday.

He argued however that it made no sense to pull US-led coalition troops out of Iraq. "

[Blue_Roses]

20. Oh, come on

I heard the exact same interview and that's not exactly how it was put.

[BootinUp]

27. At this time

A cut and run policy from Iraq for Kerry, would be the surest way to another 4 years of Bush. A clear majority of Americans believe we must restore order and not let it degrade into haven for more terrorists training camps like Afghanistan. By International Law it is also our responsibility.

[goodhue]

19. that has always been Kerry's position

I got over disappointment some time ago and moved on to anger. Eventually I may make it to acceptance and/or resignation but for the moment I'm still stuck on anger. March 20th I'll be marching in the streets in support of bringing our troops home. There is still plenty of time for Kerry to alter his position if enough pressure. Take it to the streets!

[AntiCoup2K4]

22. PNAC's plan called for a permanent military presence in Iraq

The PPI plan (a.k.a. PNAC in a shiny new wrapper) is what Kerry's pushing, so why expect to hear any different from him (or his designated spokesman).

Of course, if things get ugly, Kerry could always deny Holbrooke's statement with "that's not our position" .

[OKNancy]

24. No you are wrong

This is Kerry's statement about his Iraq plans straight from his website:

As President, John Kerry will immediately lay out a concrete plan for the transfer of power to the Iraqi people. This plan will provide a reasonable timetable for a rapid turnover of power to Iraqi authorities. Engaging the Iraqi people in rebuilding their country and shaping their new institutions is fundamental to the cause of a stable, peaceful, and independent Iraq that contributes to the world instead of threatening it.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AntiCoup2K4]

39. Voice in my head?

enough with the personal attacks already.

[AntiCoup2K4]

34. Isn't that what Bush is claiming right now too?

Funny how a number of Iraqi's said the "car bomb" yesterday was actually an American missile. Mark my words, there is no way in Hell the troops will be pulled out this summer, next summer (regardless of who wins in November) or any other time in the near future. PNAC/PPI's plans demand a permanent military base and Iraq is the centralized location where it will be located.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. It is false to say that Kerry wants a permanent military presence in Iraq

It is simply wrong. A false and misleading statement.

[AntiCoup2K4]

37. I didn't say Kerry did.

But the criminal fascist bastard writing his foreign policy does. So maybe Kerry better disavow himself from the PPI/PNAC bullshit.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

40. You implied it.

I have the feeling Kerry is a lot more worried about beating Bush right now than he is worried about appeasing extremist leftist idealogues.

[VoxPopuli]

31. Kerry and the Dems

A friend just turn me on to this site. So this is my first time. I think there is no difference in choosing between the two millionaires Kerry and Bush. Except more and more socialist governments in Europe are supporting Kerry. I think it's time we stop calling ourselves liberals or even progressives, and start calling our selves what we are, SOCIALISTS. The old Democratic Party is dead and is always trying to catch up with the GOP. Let's tell the people the truth, Socialism is not a bad word. For the United Socialist States of America! For the United Socialist World!

[MessiahRp]

32. As much as I hate this war

We can't just pull out. If we pull out now Iraq will be a mess. We should stay in but put forces under NATO control and work with other countries to stabilize and then get the UN to come in with NATO firepower behind them. We also need to give Iraqis more say in their reconstruction.

One thing we need to do though is get Bush's ass out of office. The fact that he won't let other countries (other than those who helped us invade) have access to the oil pretty much shows that this war was about controlling Iraqi oil and is a huge sorespot with the Arab Nations.

We need to divest ourselves from controlling their oil assets immediately.

Rp