Did Kerry really win Nomination? Did Bush in 2000?

[NaderIsMyHero]

I really got to wonder if the parties don't decide who will get the nomination and the caucuses aren't just a put-on. Dean was on a huge roll this year. McCain was very popular for the Rep. nomination in 2000. Both seemed like a shoe in. This makes me wonder even more for this years nominee: http://www.nukefreezone.net/archives/000140.html

These voting machines were suppose to be ready for the caucuses by order of Supreme Court but they weren't. Can't help but shake the feeling we are being hearded like so many cattle....what say you.

[liberalnurse]

1. It has crossed my mind.......

but I'll just have to live with it.......there are indeed similarities. I'll never know the truth......but I can live with it within my own party....but then what will happen in November?

[onehandle]

2. Yes they won their nominations. nt

[Dr Fate]

3. The media pumped up Dean as well as McCain...

...do you have any real proof of any of this?

What about Kerry states w/o machines?

There were no touch-screens to speak of for McCain v. Bush primaries...

[NaderIsMyHero]

4. Never said it was definate.

I was just asking what you people thought. With or without voting machines they could still put their guy in there. Who is going to challenge their own parties nomination and ask to see the paper trail. Maybe I'm paranoid but after seeing the way Bush has gotten away with 9/11 why shouldn't I be paranoid?

[Dr Fate]

9. "Bush has gotten away with 9/11?"

Do you mean to say that he got away with preventing the attacks?

His defense record will be scrutinized by Kerry, make no mistake...

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. There was most certainly media manipulation involved

Actually some of the same lies were used against both Dean and McCain. "angry". "short tempered". "insane". "meltdown" etc.

Oddly enough, both were also opposed to the corporatist nature of their party.

[surfermaw]

15. McCain is a slacker finished next to last in West Point Class

That is the last thing we need is another arrogant man like Bush, and that is exactly what he has, the only thing he has going for him is that he was a Vietnam Vet. who was captured, and God bless him for that, MCCain is shallow.

[mobuto]

21. McCain is right on a number of important issues

including CFR, No Child Left Behind and MediCare.

But as for being arrogant, the guy wanted to be President, leader of the Free World. Its inconceivable that any Presidential wannabe would be anything other than arrogant.

Moreover, it seems doubtful that McCain was next to last in his class at West Point, given that he never went there. He graduated from the Naval Academy.

[Desertrose]

6. moooo-oo-oooo

It was all pretty well set up ahead of time...Dean got a little too popular and a little too uppity, so Clark was brought in as a spoiler...worked well,too...next thing we know Kerry is on a roll and Dean was dissed by the media-need I say more? Edwards was never given a fair chance really and they just absolutely cut Kucinich outta the whole thing.

I knew last summer it was gonna be Kerry as the annointed one...he'll put a dem face on basically the same crap that goes on already...no real changes and you watch ...it will be damn intersting to see what happens to the voter turnout when folks realize there ain't a big difference between the R & D again this election......

[surfermaw]

14. Are you republicans still backing Clark, sound like that might

be the story?

[KittyWampus]

20. How Many Absurd Statements Can We Find

1.Dean got a little too popular and a little too uppity

A LOT of Dean's support was based on Name Recognition and the Glowing, Unquestioning Media Coverage he recieved for months on end. He lost because he went negative in Iowa then gave an outlandish and unacceptable Concession Speech.

2. Clark was brought in as a spoiler

Clark was brought in by a Draft Movement. He was playing to win.

3. Next thing we know Kerry is on a roll

Kerry won Iowa and got the Momentum and milked the heck out of it. The same thing Dean & eveyone else tried to do. Kerry had great ads, didn't go so obviously negative as Dean and Gep. Oh, Kerry also has a solid Liberal record which Dean did NOT have.

4. Dean was dissed by the media.

Dean made so many gaffes that went unchallenges leading up to Iowa. Good God, the Media gave Dean a freaking Do-Over on his Osama statement.
Dean had been warned that his wife's absence would hurt him... he COULD have had Judy do a few Photo Ops along the way.
Dean's outlandish Iowa Concession Speech was totally beyond the pale. If Dean didn't want to made a laughing stock... he COULD have just given a NORMAL Concession speech.

5. Edwards was never given a fair chance

Edwards was given glowing media coverage after Iowa and especially after Clark dropped out and the attacks centered on Kerry.

6. Absolutely cut Kucinich outta the whole thing.

So far the only thing that isn't silly. Please note: Clark was largely ignored except when he was getting trashed. At least Dennis didn't get abused the same way Clark was.

7. Kerry will put a dem face on basically the same crap that goes on already.

Sure anything you say.

[Nadienne]

23. About #6

Is it better to have no coverage than it is to have negative coverage?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

7. Yes the entire political system is a plot to keep your hero out of power.

[Josh]

8. McCain was NOT a shoe-in -

he was just the media darling. Everyone acknowledged that Bush had popular support and a war chest that couldn't be competed with.

[Dr Fate]

12. And not one single Repug. Radio Jock endorsed McCain...

...in fact, Rush, Boortz, and all the clones went into overdrive smearing McCain as a "Liberal"...

Almost every Republican I talked to in GA bought it too- "McCain-no way- he's a Liberal..."

The points dont add up- I doubt Kerry did anything like what is being suggested in this thread...

[JI7]

10. iowa caucus was not voting machines

in iowa people had to openly declare who they are supporting.cspan even showed the process live in 2 of the caucuses.and also, there are exit polls which help. in 2002 most of the elections won by republicans did not reflect what polls had shown. but they also didn't do ANY exit polls that day which would have helped us to determine exactly what was going on. like the wisconsin poll which showed kerry ahead of edwards by double digits was done before edwards endorsement and the debate, and the exit polls showed those things helped edwards.

[Dr Fate]

11. "Nader is my hero" has admitted this all pure speculation...

In an answer to my post above...

It's pure speculation- a conclusion with no facts and a weak analysis...

I dont believe Kerry "stole" the primaries. The suggestion in this thread that "...Bush did it, so that means Kerry would do it" is also not supported by any facts.

Kerry does not have a record of lying & fudging elections- Bush does...

[Nadienne]

18. I think I missed the part where anyone said

"...Bush did it, so that means Kerry would do it"

If Republicans have a good reason to want Kerry to win the nomination (which might be the case - Kerry is easily portrayed as wishy-washy) they could orchestrate his nomination, by means of BBV and media manipulation. If there is a conspiracy that led to Kerry's nomination, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kerry's at the head of the conspiracy...

[surfermaw]

13. I got to wonder if there are some republican here

Republicans in democrat clothing are you?

[wyldwolf]

16. sour grapes

Kerry won. Deal with it. He was leading in the polls every place he won.

Unless all the polling entities were "in" on the scam... :eyes:

It just keeps getting thicker and thicker... NaderIsMyNERO! (If Nader draws enough progressive votes to let Bush win again, will he fiddle while America burns?)

[John_H]

17. No Kerry stole it!! And Nader really won in 2K. Let's all vote for him!

[Nadienne]

19. Maybe the subject of this thread should read

Did Kerry really earn the nomination? Did Bush really earn the nomination in 2000?

:)

[leyton]

26. Kerry earned it in my opinion.

He stuck to his campaign, didn't drop out when things were looking bad towards the latter half of 2003. And he got the votes, which is really the only thing that counts.

[Nadienne]

30. He did the hard work.

Sure. I don't dispute that. But, in my opinion, other candidates also worked hard.

You could say that a middle-of-the-road candidate is more appealing to the general masses than, say, someone who wants universal health care for all, etc, etc... appealing because the middle-of-the-road candidate is "electable" (after all, there really are people who aren't in favor of protecting everyone's right to health).

And you would probably be correct.

But I cannot say with 100% certainty that the corporate power in this country did not somehow manipulate public opinion to give us ...

Well, my theory goes like this:

Dean's popularity rose, with the help of the media. And with it rose the "Anybody but Dean" branch of the party - particulary in the first couple of states. They voted for Kerry, giving him the boost he needed to keep the lead - especially helpful to him were polls saying he would beat Bush.

Much as I would like to believe that Kerry and all he stands for is the sincere choice of the democrats, sorry: I think we are being manipulated.

Though, for the record, this is not to say "Don't vote for Kerry." This is to say, "Let's not be naive, here, folks." Let's have our guard up. Let's not start sneering at those who have concerns.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. The failure of people to deal with reality had led to the overmedication

of America.

Yes Kerry won the nomination. As for Bush winning the Republican nomination, I wasn't paying close enough attention to the Republican primary but this endless shit picking and whining is absolutely useless.

Yes..Dean seemed like a shoe-in until any actual votes were cast...then, he himself gave a speech making him appear to be a SHOE OUT...then he DIDN'T EVEN GO to the next several states while the candidates that are ACCUSED of NOT being grass roots were ON THE GROUND meeting with people...it seems HUMOROUS to me that the GRASS ROOTS guy BUSSED people INTO Iowa to fill his speeches while the NON grass rooters actually MET WITH IOWANS.

Dean was a victim of his own poorly organized, overly expensive, amatuer campaign with people in Vermont struggling to pull a power play with people that were FAR more seasoned in NATIONAL campaigns than his home spun manager in VT.

I will agree that the media didn't help after the scream speech, but THAT speech was in itself just another misstep by DEAN who was the frontrunner at the time but COULD NOT RESIST getting up in front of his faithfuls and playing from the UNDERDOG script...much like many who post here (not ALL...I NEVER SAID ALL DEAN SUPPORTERS SO STOP SAYING THAT) Dean got a little too much of that underdog crap wound into his identity to speak like the frontrunner he WAS when he was.

So...please do us all a favor and get in touch with reality.

The reality is not all votes were computer...he LOST in caucus states as well as he lost in optiscan states as well as he lost in Diebold states.

[oasis]

24. Dedicated, hard working Democrats won the nomination for Kerry. They are

the ones that will win back the White House. Those who wish to get on board are welcome to do so.

[Nicholas_J]

25. In 2000

McCain was only a popular "shoe in" prior to the actual nominating process beginning, as was Dean in 2002-2003. Onvce the actual caucuses and primaries began in 2000. McCain rapidly began to fall in popularity once he actually had to compete against other Republican running. THe last time that McCain was actually considered a show in was late December of 1999, and things started falling for him shortly after the first primaries. Same thing with Dean. WHile no one was actually formally campaigning hatrd, but simply had their hat in the ring, Dean did well. A soo as others began to formally campain on the ground in the primary states, Deans lead eroded away as qickly as Mc Cains did.

[LividLiberal]

27. I was paying attention. Kerry really did win the nomination. Bush in 2000

I'm not sure about because I was paying more attention to Gore back then. But in 2004 Dean looked like the front runner until actual voters came into the picture, then it became a Kerry landslide.

[sangh0]

28. So did the parties decide the elections is Spain?

Just like McCain in 2000, and Dean in 2004, the Popular Party had the lead in the days leading up to the election and looked like a shoo-in. But then, the Socialists won.

So, did the Socialists really win?

[Dark Angel]

29. Nice name

not.