Who have the Dems betrayed besides antiwar lefties?

[eridani]

Unions--NAFTA and WTO

Women--welfare 'reform'

Blacks--racist 'War on Some Drugs'

[ugarte]

1. In order to 'betray'

there has to be a commitment to begin with.

[eridani]

6. Can you say New Deal, or Great Society?

I knew you could! None of that went as far as real lefties wanted, then or now. But it counts as commitment anyway, IMO.

[sangha]

46. Neither of those two were "anti-war"

I don't know why some anti-war leftists seem to think the Democratic Party has a commitment to their cause.

[Ysabel]

105. pro-war then...?

are you saying, sangha, that the democratic party is a pro-war party...?

is that what you are saying...?

[Dr Fate]

114. I think he's saying that DEMS should be pro-defense...

...I know thats what I'm saying...

[JohnKleeb]

2. umm eridani

Everyone is betrayed in Welfare "reform" and the war on drugs. You know many kids are on welfare. I agree with your spirit man but its not just those two groups that were betrayted by the war on drugs and Welfare "reform" that said I agree with you on your point.

[eridani]

3. I know that

This was an attempt to get comments on an ignored post in the Who Is the Democratic Base thread.

The point was that the betrayal is about more that lefty 'purists,' which was sidestepped in that thread.

[corporatewhore]

5. blacks latinos and the poor are targeted by the po po for drugs moreso

than suburban white kids

[JohnKleeb]

10. thats what I meant

"welfare reform" is something the blue dogs, I dont know if y'all have heard of them wanted, welfare reform is an oxymoron and one of the reasons I dislike Clinton.

[corporatewhore]

4. GLBT-the fact that gay marriage is even being questioned

[LoneStarLiberal]

7. We're Hostage To Our Diversity

The Democratic Party is a centrist party...has been since 1976. When Jimmy Carter won in '76, it sealed the fate of the left wing of the party.

When the left wing of the party spoke and got Walter Mondale, he got his ass handed to him on a platter. Ditto with Dukakis. It is worth noting that neither of those guys were really "lefties," but were left in relation to the emerging centrist stripe of Democratic candidates.

What started in '76 found its second breath in Bill Clinton who won in '92 and '96. Another Southern centrist Democrat.

Now, everyone here is going to have different opinions about just exactly who the Democratic Party's "base" is, and it's going to be tough to back any of it up with any kind of convincing statistics.

The reality of the situation is this: You rely on your base to win. In that sense, all of us, be we conservative Dems, moderate Dems, or liberal Dems, are the base. Why? Because if any of us bolt the party, we lose to the Republicans. It's just that brutally simple. Call it whatever makes you feel good about it, but at the end of the day it's pure two-term* George W. Bush enabling.

We're hostage to our diversity and our opposition and I'm not convinced that having tug-of-war battles over who's more Democratic is going to benefit any of us or our party. But it's definitely a discussion worth having.

[eridani]

8. Dukakis and Mondale were wusses, not lefties

Allowed Rethugs to frame the debate, and ran campaigns that said essentially "Vote for a qualified technocrat."

[edzontar]

9. Seniors--at least the ones who voted from pukeboy's Medicare bill...

Oh and let's not forget every citizen of the nation by voting for USA Patriot, etc.

That betrayed the whole basis of our constitution, in fact.

[hedgetrimmer]

11. wow... you totally stumped the masses with the USA Patriot Act votes

[edzontar]

12. Yeah--PATRIOT was a very bad ACT and only a handful of Dems--including DK

Are off the hook on THAT score....

Betrayal of the nation, of the very principle of human liberty--other than that --NO FUCKING PROBLEM!!!!!!

[edzontar]

13. According to what i read here, "Anti-war lefties" (like me)

Are no longer considered DEMS by many folks here...

We are all "to the left of Mao," or something like that.....

[Desertrose]

14. me too...kinda sucks doesn't it?

we work our tails off for a dem candidate and are treated like we are fools or worse....

I can just as easily become an independant again & no one would miss me....only reason I registered Dem was to vote for Dennis in our primary.....don't need to be a Dem for the GE....

:shrug:
DR

[WilliamPitt]

16. "I can just as easily become an independant again"

Welcome to the point of Base vs. Not Base.

'Base' means never going independent. Ever. 'Not Base' is someone who can abandon the party "easily" for things as mundane as comments on an internet forum.

But I repeat myself.

[edzontar]

19. You do indeed repeat.

I've voted straight Dem my whole life.

But you see fit to threaten me personally here....not very nice.

[WilliamPitt]

21. Where on earth did I threaten you?

[edzontar]

24. Call it a "muffled" threat--"I'd get you if i could..."

It is not exactly civil discourse to suggest you are keeping "files" on people....

Look, I have every right to come here as long as I am allowed to, and I am not the only person who has noticed this tick to the right.

Maybe we are all nuts..anyway it is a valid question to ask--"What if this doesn't work?"

[WilliamPitt]

26. Where did I suggest I was keeping files?

Ye gods! Threats? Keeping files? I read certain things in certain places and they jump out at me when those things crudely insult people I consider friends. If you don't like them, fine, that's you're right...but I'm in awe that you attack this place with such bile and keep coming back. I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Files? Threats? Get over yourself, hoss.

[edzontar]

28. YOU attacked ME!!!! You reference supposed insults...well isn't that

What YOU are doing now?

Call it bullying, if you like that better....

[WilliamPitt]

29. "Supposed" insults

It would take me 42 seconds to compile a pretty damning collection of links detailing your "supposed" insults.

I'm threatening? Bullying? Keeping files? No. I'm calling you, pal, on your love for leaping nimbly from website to website, posting insults about this place over there and somehow thinking it has no bearing on your presence here. It has a bearing on your presence here. If you hate this place so much, as your over-there posts clearly indicate, why do you come back?

"DU is nothing."

[edzontar]

30. I don't keep track of people online. I have a life.

I would say that tracking people on line comes dangerously close to stalking, which is a form of intimidation....

I have never seen you anywhere else online but here, except one place, maybe, and only once.

As to your "friends," I am not exacly sure who they are, but I would guess that any one of these exchanges could be characterized as a 2-way street.

I would also guess that you have probably insulted some peoplel I am friends with--but I never thought it appropriate to get into a public flame-war with you about such things


(on edit)

Really--this is the sort of stuff that should be discussed in PM or something--do you really think that we should be slinging about here?

[WilliamPitt]

33. This is what you call tracking

Going over there to see what all the fuss is about.

Reading thread after thread filled with names of people who still post here. Said threads are filled with really nasty attacks against this place.

I say, "Holy shit, that's pretty weak. How can they still post on DU after putting this crap up here?"

After figuring out what the fuss is, I leave.

Tracking? No. Memory.

Whatever, dude. It is what it is.

[edzontar]

35. Time for this exchange to end.

I have addressed my concerns to Admin.

You really should calm down about whatever is bothering you.

[sangh0]

49. LOL!

edzontar's 1st reply to Pitt claimed thet Pitt had threatened him and he then went to claim that Pitt was tracking him, and now he wants Will to calm down.

I had heard that the Democratic base was excited, but I didn't realize they were upset at being tracked!

[WilliamPitt]

50. "I didn't realize they were upset at being tracked"

...or held responsible for their behavior.

[edzontar]

57. EVERYONE should be held responsible for their behavior.

I agree with that one.

[edzontar]

56. SangLOL,,,,,,

I'm so surprised to see you getting into this.

Thanks for your support.

[Djinn]

100. I'd be a little creeped out by that too WilliamPitt

I also post on other sites and on the one we don't mention here - while I personally take the opinion that the admins of any site are entitled to do/say whatever they like and consequently only (occasionally) refer to certain posts rather than this site as a whole and am happy to still post here even though my politics are quite further to the left than is the prevailing view here, I would definitely feel really uneasy about someone searching other sites (that they themselves don't seem to like) for incriminating evidence about me - not that they'd find it - but it kinda is stalking

Edit: as for "held responsible for their behavior." seriously - people surely can say what they like on other forums - as long as they don't break the rules here what's the prob? I also don't really get posting here if you think nothing good about DU - but I'll keep posting elsewhere for certain subjects (I/P gets a bit hot here for my liking and I find I can discuss it elsewhere without the flamage - is that REALLY a problem) and post here on other stuff and don't expect to have to answer for that to anyone anywhere

[edzontar]

122. Thanks--I am just sorry that this exchange ever had to happen...

To the extent that i played a part in it-- I apologize to my colleagues.

[Desertrose]

22. Now, Will....

its not just comments on an internet forum...please....give me a little more credit than that.

Since I have been Independant my entire life up until a few months ago to vote for Dennis Kucinch- I guess I am not even in this equation....I have always voted Dem however....so dumping the "abandon party" trip on me doesn't apply ... by your definition I was never part of the "base " in the first place, so who would care or miss me...?

I say "easily" because this is about more than being a "base dem" or an Indy or Green or socialist or whatever label you choose...its about making some changes in the what is happening in this country.

My concern is getting a better man in the WH than Bush...we may disagree on who the best man is, but please don't doubt I want * O U T...OK?

Peace
DR

[WilliamPitt]

23. Peace indeed

Can you help me figure out where I threatened Mr. Zontar?

[Desertrose]

25. Uh...I think these posts are getting all twisted

I think your two have something going that I do not want to get in the middle of...I was replying to your post to me about my considering switching back to Indy...perhaps edzontar thought it was to him...I honestly dunno...you were replying to me, right?

Hell... I'll leave it to you guys to figure it out...I have a half finished book waiting for me...

good luck...maybe a time out for you guys or the ignore function might be of help??
O8)

Peace or whatever comes close :)

DR
angel edit

[WilliamPitt]

27. Nah, I'm just looking for some help

I'm threatening people and keeping files. News to me. :)

[edzontar]

62. "If I was able to, I could post..." etc, etc.

Call it bullying....apparently this stuff is OK here now, though....

[pop goes the weasel]

31. shame on you, William Pitt!

I have voted Democratic in nearly every election I have ever voted in, and I have been voting since 1980. I have also supported the most leftward candidate in every primary I have ever voted in. But I am not about to pledge my undying loyalty to the Democratic Party regardless of who is being run. Just because someone calls himself a Democrat and gets the party's nomination does not make him worthy of my loyalty any more than W calling himself president and wrapping himself in the flag makes him worthy of my loyalty. I am part of the base of the Democratic Party, and as such, I decide who is worthy of getting my vote. But I might stay home, or vote Green, or Socialist, or do some other "independent" thing if the party's candidates take my vote for granted and say and do as if they were Republicans. Right now, I intend to vote for all the Democratic candidates on ballot in November. But I reserve the right to tell any of them to take a hike if I perceive no vital difference between them and their opposition.

I'm not saying by this that there is no difference between Kerry and W, but I am beginning to wonder what that difference is. I am not a Kerry primary supporter, so he has to convince me still that I should be happy to vote for him. If he can convince me, I will convince others. He isn't doing a stellar job of that right now. And that is why our party loses elections. Because of the attitude that the party owns our votes and our effort. One would think that after 2000, the party leadership would realize that it can't take left-wing votes for granted. If it hasn't learned this lesson, and ends up losing again because left-wing Democrats either sit out the election, vote but don't campaign or donate, or vote for a 3rd party candidate, I don't want to hear the same whining that was projected against the Greens after 2000. The party has to consolidate the base. And I am part of that base, but I am not feeling the love. I will go where I am appreciated.

And what of the people new to the Democratic party? You seem particularly dismissive of them. Is this some sort of disease within the party? Locally, our county chair treats with contempt anyone who has a history of voting independently. Way to not convince them to join us permanently, I say! I thought it was just him, but maybe it is some horrible virus that Democrats are especially prone to.

[WilliamPitt]

34. Yes, shame on me

again.

G'night.

[Nazgul35]

36. It's not about the Party working to earn your vote...

don't you know....

It's about falling in line and behaving yourself....

the base seems to be code for "people who will take anything the party dishes out -- usually in a bent over position"

Fall in line or we'll label ya....and than you'll be sorry!!!

Cause we all know that the Dem Party of today looks exactly like the Dem Party of the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, etc....

It's our fault we are not the base anymore! We are bad people! We forgot that being the base requires loylaty 100% of the time no matter what the candidates feed us....and when they lose, it is all our fault too....

See, those who like the idea of an elite power structure will of course suggest that we should all fall in line, but they foget what made us the base....

skilled and great names in the Democratic Party produced policies that helped great sections of this country's population, and in exchange for that help, we rewarded them by continuing to vote for them....and a bond was formed. Trust was established...

But when the party leaders forgot what it was that drew us to the party to begin with...when soft money rotted our party from the head and we drew back out of revolsion of the parasites that now swarm over the carcus of our rotting leadership....we are labeled as the problem...

So we all need to suck it up and get in line....

Makes sense doesn't it?

:shrug:

[revcarol]

53. Bingo!!"When the party leaders forgot what it was that drew us to the

party in the first place":thumbsup:

Oh, boy, have they forgotten!! LABOR totally betrayed by the WTO, NAFTA,GATT,...The Democratic Party has ALWAYS been the party for labor, aqnd not just union labor, labor of everyone including Republicans!!Just ONE example.

I have voted Democratic for 42 YEARS, and I feel that THIS IS NO LONGER MY PARTY. They have moved away from justice for all,help for the less fortunate, basic living and health care for seniors, racial inclusion and opportunities, fostering the ability of people to get out of poverty with job training and grants for college...

I feel like a married woman who has worked at two jobs all her life-at home and at work, raised her children superbly, and is now being left by her husband(the party) for a younger glitzier model who doesn't have a brain in her head and has never worked a day in her life.

The party has ABANDONED US, not we, it.

So I am going to stay out of the personal flame war and work for PROGRESSIVES. If a progressive happens to be a Green or independent, so be it.

[zoeyfong]

98. true.

[greendog]

81. 'Base' means never going independent.

....mindless, unquestioning Dembots, in other words?

[no name no slogan]

69. I left before, I don't want to leave again

I joined the Democrats in 1987 when I was a college student in southern MN, largely because of Paul Wellstone, who was a college professor from southern MN. I was previously involved in the peace movement as a high school student, and Paul showed me that the Democrats were open to my views, and that it was okay to be involved in civil disobedience and still be a loyal Democrat.

I left the party in the early 1990s, underwhelmed by Clinton's lip service to liberal issues, and his "welfare reform" program. However, I still worked on several local campaigns for candidates I knew would be strong progressives once elected.

I came back into the party in 2002 after Sen. Wellstone's death, and BushCo's new imperialist world domination plan. I have busted my ass since last year to get Dennis Kucinich's message of New Deal domestic policies and non-imperialist foreign policy out to the world.

I am still not convinced that Kerry should be our nominee. Every time he opens his mouth, he seems to say more things that alienate me. I will vote for Kerry, but he will not get one penny of my money (I'm unemployed) or one hour of my time, which will be spent working to get other Democrats elected.

[WilliamPitt]

15. It's interesting

how you seem to purposefully misrepresent things to get all riled up.

I'm actually amazed you have the gall to show your face on this forum. I'd post evidence to suggest that your words towards certain people who made this place possible should make you ashamed to enter their house, but because of the fights that behavior like yours has caused, I can't.

Sufficed to say, I'm amazed you have the gall to show your face in the house of those you've happily pissed on.

But hey, you're the victim, right?

[edzontar]

17. I do not show my face here..I show a Zappa face

But thanks for showing YOUR true face for all the community to see.....

[WilliamPitt]

18. Whatever that means

I'm Muhammad Ali. OK...

[edzontar]

20. It means you chose your words poorly...and you are not the King

Of the World.

(on edit:) And you really should not threaten--or ALMOST threaten-- people on line.

PD--I am not the founder of the Motehrs of Invention, either.

[bitchkitty]

103. No, you're not.

And you might be the most popular guy in the school, Will, but just want to remind you, edzontar has every right to be here, and telling him that you're surprised he "dare show his face" is sickening to me. This is not a fraternity, this is not a private club. This is a forum for ALL Democrats, even those (like me) who are completely disgusted with the direction the party is taking.

I enjoy edzontar's posts, and I hope he continues to dare show his face.

[GabysPoppy]

39. Take it from where it comes from

We have a group of people who have taken it upon themselves to determine who the "good dems" are. In addition they have been deciding who can call themselves the "real progressives" too. Follow closely and you will also learn who are the "good Jews" and who are the "good Blacks". If you want a good laugh or should I say a good cry, they will also decide for you whether you "deserve" your avatar or not.

Bottom line, they are no different from the present resident in the white house with their "my way or the highway" air of superiority. Extremism is the same regardless of the pajamas being worn.

I believe they must come to this house now and then just because they have no mirrors in their own house. How else can you admire and flaunt your superiority. The benefits of singing to the choir only lasts but a few minutes when the sound of the monotone becomes so boring and the song remains the same.

[wyldwolf]

42. And that sums it up

You just said quite eloquently what I would have said in a much nastier tone - because that is how I've come to feel about BOTH fringes of the political spectrum - left and right.

I would ask when one of them is going to trademark the terms "progressive" and "liberal" so only they can approve who can call themselves one.

[edzontar]

59. I thought it wan't permitted to talk about "that" forum here...

I guess it really is OK, but only if you attack it...

The "Good Jews" and "good blacks" stuff makes nor sense, of course...

[GabysPoppy]

63. Of course it wouldn't make sense to you

If I remember correctly, you once had some Jewish friends back in grade school.

[edzontar]

64. Well well, THAT old attempt at slander

nt

[GabysPoppy]

68. Not an attempt, it's the truth

I still have it in black & white

[Djinn]

101. wouldn't worry about it

My family background is apparently all a lie as well??? I don't know what happens when we die but if I get to see my grandparents/great grandparents etc again I can't wait to tell them some of the conversations I've had done here on terra firma

[AntiCoup2K4]

96. What do Kerry's speeches have to do with Led Zeppelin?

...when the sound of the monotone becomes so boring and the song remains the same.

[edzontar]

104. Bye bye, Gabby!!!!!!

nt.

[Djinn]

107. Na Na Na Na - Na Na Na Na - Hey Hey Hey - Goodbye!

:evilgrin:

[JohnLocke]

112. Nice.

Disgusting...

[JohnLocke]

113. ....

[edzontar]

121. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood....

Maybe we'll see a cleansing rain of falling houses....

[JohnLocke]

123. You celebration reveals much about you.

[edzontar]

124. You are so correct, Mr. FDR.

It reveals that I have a dislike for people who accuse me of anti-semitism to gain "points" in a stupid argument.

See you at the "otherplace"--?

[JohnLocke]

125. I've never accused you of anti-Semitism.

[edzontar]

132. True--I was not referring to you...but the other person did...

So I was glad to say...Bye Bye

[Djinn]

131. JohnLocke, really?

when someone gets tombstoned I'm of the belief that the admin's also found that poster's comments to be waaaay off ball - I doubt my politics line up with the mods/admins much (coz they don't seem to line up with many people's) yet I can manage to express my point without offending anyone enough to get banned from this forum. Am I going to be sorry that someone I personally found offensive is banned..No - and given your robust debating in the I/P (I disagree regulalry with you but wouldn't want to see YOU banned, it's good to have people to disagree with, who wants to sit around passionatly AGREEING with people all day) I find it a bit odd that you find me quoting a song THAT offensive

Edit: As for what it reveals about me - yep I also have a problem with being accused of anti-semitism (bizarre in my case really) not by you because like I said you can argue without being offensive - so can I - that's why we're still here and other people designated as "disruptors" by the site admin have been banned. THAT's all it says about me

[Walt Starr]

47. tainted love

[wyldwolf]

41. Oh, come on!

This is called a persecution complex - something that drives people who occupy the fringes of the political spectrum. I see it on the right all the time and, lately, on the left.

I think if you don't like what you get, you should not dish it out first.

And, to you personally, I'm not sure you know what a real threat is. I would feel a little better about these exchanges if the wounded party would at least produce evidence of these "secret files" and "threats."

[edzontar]

45. Fringes are relative to where one decides to put the "center"

In a very conservative society like the US in 2003, the "Fringe" is pretty much the standard left position as it equates to other countries.

As to the threat--which I characterized as "muffled"---the bullying intent seemed real enough to me....and is all-too characteristic of an attitude that we have seen before from a small but noisy element in the community...

[BigMcLargehuge]

55. like a handfull of Dean supporters who helped make GD2K4 unbearable

for the last five months? The same ones who behaved on this board like schoolyard bullies then cried everytime someone disagreed with their extremist position? The same ones who racked up a couple of hundred discussions in the mod forum over the last three terms, and as a testament to the tolerance of the moderating staff, didn't get banned? The same ones whose behavior forced the implementation of several new draconian rules that made everyone suffer through the primaries? The same ones who cried "conspiracy" as soon as the reality of the American political process sprayed Round Up on Dean's grass roots? The same ones who cried mod bias everytime one of their uncivilized posts was deleted? The same ones who started their own discussion board so they could fantasize about a Dean presidency beginning in 05 while simultaneously bashing DU at every opportunity? The same ones who assert that they'll vote 3rd party in 04.

It's fucking sad that we even have to suffer through this discussion. We're all supposed to be working towards the same overall goal, restoring America's democracy, but it's way to easy to piss on one another like children raised by competing wolf packs.

There's room for everyone, left, right, and center, at the Democratic pot luck supper, but don't come to the party with no dish then complain about the menu.

[Rowdyboy]

70. Hallelujah, brother and pass the

fried chicken."Don't come to the party with no dish and then complain about the menu". Its just plain tacky!

I post in several forums and would never dream of bashing one in one of the others (and no, FreeRepublic is not one of them)

[wyldwolf]

65. We're not referring to other countries, are we?

We are in the General Discussion: Campaign 2004 forum so we're referring to AMERICAN politics (unless other countries have a candidate in this race.)

It is your opinion that the "Fringe" is pretty much the standard left position as it equates to other countries. Any examples?

[edzontar]

66. I''d say the PDS in Italy, for example--and the various parties like the .

Greens or Ulivo...they include Center-left and Left people.

Of course there is also the Communist Rifondazione...which is further left...

Or the Socialists in Spain...who are a center-left party

Oh and by the way, my point was that politics in general have moved further to right in the US than they have in some other countries...by which i mean the CENTER has moved right in the media, parties, etc.

This is not a very controversial opinion, i don't think...

[wyldwolf]

67. All this is well and good and I applaud your knowledge of world politics..

...but we are discussing the US, so it really isn't relevant.

As I said, those on the fringes of the political spectrum have a persecution complex. I see it on the right all the time and, lately, on the left.

[corporatewhore]

32. Military Families-givng bush permission to use their loved ones

they arent always anti war lefties

[eridani]

37. What the Republicans do with their crazy people

You know, the ones who think that one of these fine days, all of the true-believing little lambs of Jesus will just disappear into heaven, leaving all the unsaved ones to fight it out at Armageddon. Why, they welcome them with open arms, and once in power, actually throw them a few bones like Asscrack and the Defense of Marriage Act. And those people are the reasons the Rethugs lead the Dems in ALL fundraising categories, including the under $50 set. They don't get into the rooms where decisions are made to outsource their jobs, but they get attention, and a good deal of care and feeding.

What do the Dems do with their crazy people--you know, the ones who merely want universal health care, an end to exporting our jobs, and an end to a foreign policy based on kicking other countries in the teeth first, and negotiation later? Ignore us, and in general act very unhappy whenever any show up at local Dem organizations.

So, we were talking about the 'base' as opposed to the finicky unreliable people who are too pure for their own good. What the DLC has for its union base is NAFTA, WTO and disappearing work. It has welfare 'reform' for its female base, and skyrocketing incarceration (and consequent disenfranchisement for being felons) for its minority base. Being the base apparently means that you let the leadership keep on doing this shit and vote for them anyway.

Something is not making sense here.

[eridani]

38. So, when are the Dems going to start acting in the interests of their base

This year, maybe?

[wyldwolf]

43. I'll ask again but still don't expect an anwer ...

define what their "base" is?

[eridani]

77. It's at the top of the thread. Duh.

Will Pitt started the thread by asserting that the Dem base was unions, women and minorities. So if the Dems are answering to this base, why do the unions get WTO and NAFTA, women get welfare 'reform,' and minorities get increasing political disenfranchisement due to the War on Some Drugs?

[Dr Fate]

40. Lets end this nightmare...

I'm tired of all this- lets END this nightmare - the Bush administration does not need to be in power- Democrats will do better.

[MadHound]

44. LOL, your faith is touching, misplaced but touching

The best that we can hope for from the Dems is a kinder, gentler screwing. Kerry is already stating that he will continue and expand the war.

Sorry, but the whole Clinton presidency turned me into a cynical SOB. It wasn't his dalliances that got to me, hell I could care less. It was the 'Pub policies he enacted, you know, welfare "reform", NAFTA, the '96 Telecom Act, the list is endless.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

51. I miss the kinder, gentler screwing

It made me feel like they really care

[no name no slogan]

87. Yeah, at least we got the reach-around, huh? (nt)

[Dr Fate]

76. History, not faith guides my assertion...

Or did you forget the "Golden 1990s?"

I know I will never forget Bill Clinton and that, foward moving great era.

I think Kerry will move us forward in this country, not back to the 80's...

[MadHound]

99. Ahh, the "Golden '90s"

Sure, I remember those days with great clarity. I remember welfare "reform", NAFTA, the advent of unconstitutional soft money contributions corrupting both parties and our government. I remember the '96 Telecommunications Act, which is taking away our voice. I remember the appearance of that new class of people, the working poor. I remember the unprecedented ratcheting up in the War on Drugs, stripping away even more of our civil liberties. I remember the WTO and GATT. I remember the gap between the rich and the rest of us reaching record proportions. I remember a stock market boom, propelled by a high tech bubble. I also remember what Clinton did to burst that bubble, what with "free" trade and H1-B visas. I remember a president claiming to be a Democrat, but ruling like a corporatist.

I remember.

I remember that in what was supposed to be a time of plenty, the reality was that the ordinary person was barely able to stay even, much less get ahead.

[Dr Fate]

109. Uh-huh. Tell that to the average voter, pal.

EVERYONE I know VOTES, and EVERYONE I KNOW was better off in the 90's. EVERYONE.

Everyone- except you and the kids in the drum circle.

All you are here to do is trash the Democratic party- not my scene, Daddy-O.

[Kanary]

110. Here's one who WASN'T "better off", and there are MANY

I guess you'll level more disdain at me for telling it like it is/was:

The DEMS hurt the poor mightily during the 90's.

Maybe you don't know any poor folk, or maybe they just don't appear on your radar.

Truth DOES NOT = trashing.

At some point, we must actually begin to look at the messes the Dems have created, if we want to strengthen the Party.

Kanary

Another Delusional Diehard for Dennis!!

Kucinich 2004!

[Dr Fate]

111. I must have known different poor people then- I'm from the South...

And I saw nothing but improvments in the economy.

I saw our run-down down-town area become totally revitalized by mostly small businesses...

I had 2 or 3 pt. time or full time jobs at any given time in the 90's. Now I have none.

I grew up a pretty poor kid myself, so I know what it means-and it's one of the reasons I'm a Democrat...

Sorry, it is trashing to me, at this point in the game. I'm not going to let people trash all the hard work from Democrats like me...

I'm backing Kerry, no one else.

If you want to debate the great Clinton years, do it with right-wingers.

[corporatewhore]

115. "kids in the drum circle"

well at least we are not mindless sheep in the herd greedy buisnessmen in office or the kids in the sweatshop because of neoliberal tradepolicies

[Dr Fate]

116. I always prefered the guitar myself...

...somtimes the drums would just go on & on & on & on...I would be like- "Can we play a SONG!???!!"

The 90's were a fucking blast, no doubt.

I know I'll never forget it...

[slinkerwink]

52. They've betrayed the pro-choice movement with their vote for

the stupid partial birth abortion ban.

[Jacobin]

54. They've betrayed their country

By sitting back and allowing, no, assisting the RW junta in destroying all that is precious about this country.

They are complicit.

[Zolok]

58. The dems betrayed me twelve years ago

by not nominating Paul Tsongas for President....
ME THEY BETRAYED GLORIOUS ADORABLE CENTRAL TO THE PROCESS ME-EEE-EEE!


www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[tinanator]

118. paul is dead

you can tell by the album cover

[redqueen]

60. Can't generalize

There is no faceless entity called 'The Dems' any more than there is a faceless entity called 'The Mexicans', 'The Blacks', 'The Jews' or 'The Gays'. Every group is made up of many individuals, with diverse views and records.

Some Dems are certainly complicit in the raiding of the treasury and the continual selling out of our democracy. Others not so much. But by generalizing you de-humanize a group. The Democrats are people, and yes, many MANY of them are sold out whores, but that goes for nearly every group given ANY amount of power.

We all need to quit sniping at each other and just get our asses to work. All this sniping is making that work HARDER. It's counterproductive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. OK let's examine where the REAL FUCKING came from

Unions--NAFTA and WTO

You'd have to be deaf dumb and blind to think that WTO and NAFTA destroyed the unions. They didn't help, but what really killed the unions, specifically the AFL-CIO was lack of funding. That lack of funding was precipitated by the 18 states that voted for right to work laws on their state ballots. Those 18 states were able to accomplish that by convincing people they could get union representation without PAYING for it.

It would be really nice to have this conversation with lefties that actually HAVE some legislative memory and were drinking out of a cup when all this took place.

I guess it's a bit too much to ask you to bother to learn your legislative history before you shoot your mouth off and blame it all on the Dems.

The last third party "lefty" candidate we had (Nader) actively resisted the unionization of his own workforce at Public Citizen and hardly paid a living wage to his full time workers so maybe one needs to practice what they preach.

Women--welfare 'reform'

Actually, women were hurt because so MANY of them are single mothers and not necessarily by choice. Welfare reform WAS a poor model but after we lost congress, there wasn't much hope of clean-up legislation...which was indeed attempted.

Blacks--racist 'War on Some Drugs'

Again, STATE LEGISLATION also plays a huge roll in this one as different states have different sentencing laws. While the WOD is racist, go to black communities and ask them if they want NOTHING done about drugs...I think you'll be surprised.

[eridani]

78. From Rethugs, obviously

with the DLC types being accessories before and after the fact.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Wow a one line response to a post that had to do with POLICY what a shock!

Nice understanding of legislative history that you demonstrate.

Please tell me what the FUCKING DLC BOOGEYMAN'S role was in passing right to work laws that were on the STATE books?

Is there a DLC policy paper you can cite?
Is there an RTW advocate on the DLC you can reference?
Did the DLC promote RTW laws in any states to your knowledge?
Any info at all or just a typical knee jerk response?

Can you? I know it would take more than one sentence and GOD FORBID an INFORMED opinion...but DO make an attempt.

[eridani]

83. Did the DLC have fighting those things as a priority?

Ever? Didn't think so. Dems dominated the South when those laws were put on the books. I suppose they were happy to get the jobs from the 'spoiled' union members in the NE. But then they themselves turned out to be 'spoiled' compared to Mexicans, who are in turn 'spoiled' compared to Chinese. This race to the bottom has certainly been supported by the DLC. Why else would Clinton and Gore have used up so much of their political capital on NAFTA and WTO?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. The laws were not PUT on the books, they were put on the ballots

They were ballot propositions.

I suspect Clinton and Gore used up their political capital because trade has always been a Democratic party position. The manner in which it turned out isn't good and needs fixing, but that doesn't mean that trade in and of itself is bad.

[eridani]

85. People were trading long before there was NAFTA and WTO

So it's bogus to say that a set of rules by, for and about empowering corporations at the expense of labor and the environment is necessary to conduct trade.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

86. Yes and there were problems with abuse and exploitation even then

but continue to blame the Democrats for everything that ills us if it suits you.

[eridani]

88. I'm blaming for failure to fight them

not for being the sole cause.

[SendTheGOPPacking]

71. Better question:

Who have the antiwar lefties betrayed besides the Dems?

Unions? Women? Blacks? The poor?

[sangh0]

72. The anti-war lefties have betrayed the poor

.

[SendTheGOPPacking]

74. Thanks. I'll edit to include them.

[corporatewhore]

89. i am poor and anti war you see it is the poor who fight the wars which dem

vote along with repugs with

[JanMichael]

82. That's the truth. Easy Liberalism: Socially "Liberal", Economically...

...Conservative.

As in "I got MINE (MOOOONY) now fuck off, oh, and bring me back a nice latte. Now where was I? Oh, I just hate conservatives, they...".

Wasn't it Stan Goff that said something to the effect of, "American Liberals are just guilty Conservatives, I'm neither"?

Even if he didn't it sums it up nicely.

[drfemoe]

73. This little "Dem"

betrays his entire Party >>

Posted 3/24/2004 3:35 PM
Ga. Sen. Zell Miller blasts Kerry at 'Democrats for Bush' rally
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Bush-Cheney campaign Wednesday unleashed its most famous Democratic booster, Georgia Sen. Zell Miller, to make the case that presidential candidate John Kerry advocates policies inconsistent with some of history's most popular Democratic presidents.
Miller, a Georgian who is the lone Democratic senator to back publicly President Bush's re-election bid, criticized Kerry in a speech announcing his leadership of a national "Democrats for Bush" effort. He was joined by a handful of lesser-known Democrats, but the campaign said it would release a more comprehensive list in the coming weeks. ... more @
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-03-24-democrats-for-bush_x.htm


Reading about that stool pigeon might encourage every member of the base, sub-base, supra-base, uber base, lefty, middy, righty, and any and all shades of progressive straight to the polls to vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate. The hypocrisy of an elected public official endorsing the opposing Party candidate sickens me. Is that normal?

[Dr Fate]

93. He is the sole exception, not the rule.

No one at DU supports Miller...

[Cheswick2.0]

75. antiwar centrists and anyone who believes in the idea of "just war".....

Teachers, anyone who believes in civil liberties including centrists and righties....

the list goes on, but it's not all democrats who betrayed those groups. It's the DLC money sucking jags who voted for the IWR, the patriot act, the lousy perscription drug bill, cuts in overtime pay (or those who couldn't bother to show up), NCLB etc.......

[JanMichael]

80. As a Party "WE'VE" dropped the ball so hard our collective broken...

...toes need Socialized medicine. But we've moved so far to the center that there's little hope for that outside Blue Cross declaring bankruptcy.

Personally I'm ashamed of myself for not being more apoplectic during the theft in 2000...It may have well been the straw that broke the back of our weak experiment at Social Democracy.

Hello Corporatist Militarism...

Failed, I think that's better than "Betayed".

[HEFFA]

90. Teachers and students nationwide!!

NCLB must die! It didn't pass Congress on its own. George and his minions created it and pushed it, but the Dems never took a stand until it was too late. Furthermore, not nearly enough of them (including the current candidate of the party) have taken strong enough stands against this poorly designed, underfunded, and misdirected legislative program.

[mandyky]

91. I am not TOTALLY anti-war

I could have been talked in to Iraq had I been given the truth. I feel the Dems have "betrayed" independent Dems. We'll see what happens, but I'm not confident about Kerry.

[Dr Fate]

92. I'm a DEM AND an Anti-War Leftie who is supporting Kerry...

...I dont even know what most DUers are TALKING ABOUT anymore...What is this idea of throwing out all strategy and attacking Democrats?

I want to support Democrats, like we used to do on DU in the old days...

[Zorra]

94. Democrats haven't betrayed anyone.

It's the conservative corporate whores that are infiltrating the Democratic Party who are betraying us.

Zell Miller, Professional DINO

[shivaji]

95. Middle class tax payers

and I define middle class as a family of 4 with
family income between 35,000 & 95,000 dollars.
Adjust accordingly for smaller or larger families.

[Dr Fate]

97. You are mistaken- Kerry is for middle class tax cuts....

This is all garbage about DEMS betraying anyone...

Since you did not provide his REAL position, I will:

Provide Tax Relief to Middle Class Families
John Kerry has the courage to take on the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. However, he believes that we should keep the middle class tax cuts that Democrats fought for in 2001 and 2003. Specifically, he wants to protect the increases in the child tax credit, the reduced marriage penalty and the new tax bracket that helps people save $350 on their first level of income. He strongly disagrees with Democrats who want to repeal these tax cuts because it would cost a typical middle-class family with two children an additional $2,000. These families are often already struggling with higher health care costs and higher state and local taxes. In fact, John Kerry wants to give more tax breaks to the middle class with new tax credits on health care and college tuition. These tax cuts are part of his plan to restore the economy and cut the budget deficit in half in four years.

[tinanator]

102. disenfranchised black voters in FL

quit kidding yourselves. that aint even the tip of the iceberg.

[Dr Fate]

108. That's an untruthful statement- Katherine Harris did that, not Democrats.

n/t

[tinanator]

117. bull not one senator stood up for them and the cbc

so dont call me untruthful.

[Dr Fate]

119. Democrats did not disenfranchise any voters- that is untruthful...

Only NOW do you narrow down your statement to "Senators did not stand up..."

Before you made the untruthful remark that DEMS were going around stoppping minorites from voting...

A pretty slick smear, but an untruthful one.

[tinanator]

126. i call it bipartisanship

and treason. you call it what you want.

[Dr Fate]

127. Did you even vote for Gore?

????

[tinanator]

130. why do you ask?

Is that relevant to the "discussion"? No, its not. Are you up against a wall? I think so. Dr Fate is a really cool golden age character. If that is the basis of your login, you should see my Kirby Dr Fate drawings.

[Kanary]

106. DEMS more than betrayed... they shafted those needing housing

The HUD budget has been cut 63% (!) in 25 years.

Now, if the DEMS were really serious about reducing homelessness and poverty, in all of that 25 years they would have been able to bring themselves to SUPPORT Hud, at least at some point in there. After all, the DEMS were in power at different times during those years.

This is a very clear reason why poor folks don't swallow the BS... they KNOW the Dems aren't there to help them.

Kanary

Another Delusional Diehard for Dennis!!

Kucinich 2004!

[Kanary]

128. And the fact that not one person here even sees this as important

shows just where the Dems hearts are.

TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, folks...... that's a lot of time the Dems had to stop bleeding HUD dry.

Kanary, so sick of the whole mess

Another Delusional Diehard for Dennis!!

Kucinich 2004!

[zulchzulu]

120. Hey! Let's Play Simplistic Broad Brush Stereotype!

NAFTA and WTO does provide trade. It's not all bad. The Women "welfare reform" jab is hardly all to blame on all Democrats. The Blacks "war on drugs" thing is not exactly the truth either...

I know! Let's vote for a third party and really get things fucked up!

Yunno why? Cuz' Karl Rove would love it that way.

[Redleg]

129. Painting with an awefully god-damned big brush, aren't you?

You say "The Dems" as though they are some lock-step, single-minded organism.

[Skinner]

133. This has gone on long enough.

I'm locking. And I'm locking it's twin "Who have the antiwar lefties betrayed besides Dems?"