ok how we can expand the base to include lefties and old school cons

[corporatewhore]

Just say no to corporatism and free trade no one likes their job going to china .You will appease the hardcore green leftie types because it will be seen as a blow to us imperalism and would make all the human rights/environmental activists happy.You will make indigenous peoples rights groups happy they are not to keen to see corporations steal their land. you will make the union base happy they really dont like freetrade you havent seen anger until you have seen a steelworker who hates the entity that puts his job in danger so much he participates in direct action along side a black bloc you will make the family farmers happy they dont like it when the gov't gives big Agri business a bill of rights.You will make the buchananites happy because they dont like it when larger entities usurp local gov.You will make the lou dobbs republican/Buy American types happy.You will make the ordinary american worker happy not even a freeper likes it when their job goes to india.

[JaySherman]

1. I aleady oppose corporatism and free trade.

And I don't consider myself a hardcore green leftie type. :shrug:

[corporatewhore]

2. i was trying to point out lots of different types would be happy

from socialists to lou dobbs they all say free trade sucks!

[JaySherman]

4. Sounded like you were saying

that only extremists from either end oppose free trade. Not that I took offense or anything. But I think there already plenty of people in between who oppose free and corporatism because they realize it's screwing them over.

[corporatewhore]

6. lou dobbs and family farmers are not extremists

[JaySherman]

8. I met a few rather extreme family farmer types

when I lived in Ohio. There were also quite a few who were very liberal too. Terry Nichol's brother would be a good example of a right-wing extremist who's into organic farming and all that. Dobbs I would call a former extremist who has woken up to truth.

Point is, I don't think it's possible to generalize either way.

[Leilani]

5. I think most people are against free trade

except Wall Street, financial types, & corporate types.

[JaySherman]

9. And moron freeper-types

who are too ignorant to realize they're getting screwed.

[tinanator]

11. and their pet politicians

who somehow still get the support of, well, you know...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. It really depends on how you go about it

While people HATE shitty paying jobs, people who work for Wal Mart in poor communities or comparable stores will be told they are going to be laid off and the democrats are the reason...

if you are a liberal and you really give a shit about the working poor, you would carefully parse your plans, as the manner in which it will be presented to the masses is that Democrats are going to cause us to lay you off.

I am not saying the position of the Clinton admin was correct on this...all of the Democratic nominees have said we need to address our trade agreements and we do..fair trade is an issue, I agree.

[legin]

7. After the election, win or lose, split the party into two

it's the only thing that works.

When Zell Miller, probably on behalf of the right-wing of the party, stamps his feet the Democratic Party goes running and dumps Dean.

All the left-wing gets is abuse. The right-wing are better at playing up their importance as the tipping point between winning and losing.

This way, for governing purposes, you form a coalition of the two parties, which means that if the centrist and right-wing want power then they have to come grovelling to us on their fucking knees.

[legin]

Look at the Labour Party in britain

there are probably some real genuine left-wingers in that party, but they count for absolutely nothing because as soon as they complain about anything it's "if you say things like that the Conservatives will get into power, do you seriously want that ?" i.e. the usual crap we get here.

The left-wing of the Labour Party just get dragged rightwards and end up signing on for stuff that in their normal right minds they wouldn't even consider.

[legin]

19. In trying to be everything to all people,

you end up being nothing to everybody.

You can't run on a single clear idea in the Democratic Party because whilst it may good for a section of the party, it will upset probably a larger section. Therefore the idea will have to go through the process known as 'the death by a thousand quailifications' and end up coming out the other end devoid of any meaning and upsetting to the entire party as opposed to just a section.

To consider a practical example of just one issue here, the I/P issue:

Q1: Where can a freeper post in exactly the same style as he posts at frerepublic and knock up over a 1000 posts so that when he moves upstairs into the other forums people think that because he has a 1000 posts under his belt he can't be a troll.

Q2: Where do good, decent, left-wing posters go when they get sick of life and they want to get banned from here.

A: The I/P forum, because the powers here want to keep a balance on this issue, they seem to prefer to have two sides down there, and what you get a solution that pisses off everybody. You could build quite a healthy talkboard of just banned DU pro-palestinian I/P posters. The banned pro-israel ones like union4ever are wandering around New York telling everybody how anti-Semitic the DU is. What you get is the worst of all worlds and that is just one issue, and is what happens when you try to get two mutually conflicting ideas existing under one roof.

The final irony is that I was just over at the ConservativeUnderground, the CU, and their Yassin Assassination thread was in places more liberal than ours in LBN.

[legin]

24. And isn't it a bit weird

for the centre and the right to call for a united strong front against bush* when every so often usually one of the best posters on the board wanders down the basement and gets sucked down the black hole that's down there, with no complaints whatsoever from anybody up top.

And it reflects what happens in the non-internet world too. Cynthia McKinney dumped on by a Democrat who is going to vote for bush*, Georgia turned from Democratic to Republican, and still under the 'big tent' Democratic Party Zell has the power to dump on Dean. Cynthia's replacement gets free holidays in israel whilst Cynthia toys with running Green which annoys the 'big tent' Democratic Party who were too spineless to support her when she was in trouble.

I thought I was disorganised.

And what is the Democratic Party Platform on I/P by the way, does anybody know the specifics ?

Probably best to go for one of the standard weapons of the 'big tent' fudge, don't talk about.

[legin]

20. Is it actually useful to lump under one roof

two sets of people who have absolutely nothing in common with each other ?

We don't have a mixed DU-Freerepublic because it is pointless. You can see in real-life, we now have another DU springing up because it reflects reality, it just is.

All the happens when you mix people together who don't get on is that they spend their time rubbing each other up the wrong way.

[legin]

26. Another thing that is interesting

Unless I missed it somehow, Kerry's silence on the Hamas leaders murder is postively deafening. Even the fucking poodle condemned it. Whilst Kerry can pick this particular time exactly to put the boot into Chavez.

People talk about unity but that feels suspiciously like the two fingered gesture to me.

[ACK]

10. Time to get flamed -- Claiming the Middle

The important thing is to reframe the language. We need to learn the lessons of past victories. We seem very good as liberals and Dems in figuring out what we did wrong but never seem to capitalize on what we do right.

Raise money like Dean -- small contributors rule and free the party from the corporate money noose.

Use the new media like Dean -- Make a central part of everything a campaign does for organization and grassroots.

Organize on the grassroots level like Wellstone -- Grassroots campaigning is the way to build the base up without whoring the party out.

Talk like Clinton -- He spoke to people in a way that they not only could understand but could not ignore.


1. Anyone getting paid for work hates the idea of someone else getting a check for doing "nothing". Reframe the debate completely. Dukakis had the right idea about this. Workfare along with business sponsored retraining programs and a bit of childcare support would take care of this. Make the infrastructure stronger, help retrain workers for jobs in their areas, and NOT tick off the common man working for a living. Welfare "reform" is a sham but the debat has to be reframed completely.

2. Americans unfortunately like their guns. Talk about gun safety to bait the extremists Repubs and the NRA into a fight but never, ever, ever, ever talk about gun bans on the national stage. Just because it plays in the city does not mean that is winnable national issue.

3. Take a pro-capitalism but anti corporate corruption/anti corporate welfare stance. Talk about the corrupt execs. Talk about working with businesses and environmental groups on green issues. Talk about the lack of competition in terms of media consolidation. Back the real bastards into a corner. If the businesses work with the EPA for a change, praise them. If they don't, you have all the ammo to call them out. We live in a capitalist society and the vast majority of the working class like it this way. They dream of making it big no matter no small that chance is. Talk about giving everyone the chance to make it in America.

4. Paint the school voucher program as being bad for both public and private schools because it is. Anytime a private institution remains on the tit of public funding it is open to regulation eventually. For the public schools, it is bad because they do not get the money that instead goes to private institutions that the government by the people for the people have no control over.

5. Healthcare reform has to be painted with the brush of giving small businesses the opportunity of providing healthcare to its employess while reducing overall healthcare costs which is a benefits to all businesses small and big. Any system that places a major burden on small businesses or does NOT decrease overall healthcare costs will go down in screaming flames in a capitalist society like we live in. It is sad and wrong and true.

6. Talk about the people's money in terms they can grasp in a soundbite. Talk about fiscal responsibility and paying the bills and not charging our way into oblivion with reckless tax cuts. Talk about how the balanced budget in the '90s help fuel economic growth.

7. Never, ever, ever talk about raising taxes or let a rollback of some nonsense tax break for the rich get painted as raising taxes. We have to be absolutely fanatical about this.

8. Wrap ourselves in the Bill of Rights the way the right wraps themselves in the flag. Let the Constitution and our founding fathers be a mantra to appeal to the patriotic majority fighting for the rights we deserve in a free society.

9. Never, ever, ever, talk about our military ever being anything less than #1. Is it bullshit? Yes, but the wimp tag kills for the common man. Talk about helping military families and improving benefits for the soldiers on the ground while cutting worthless weapons programs off at the knees.

10. Reforge the language of the discussion in patriotic terms and a populist voice while pushing a left of center agenda aimed squarely at the people for the people. Reclaim the language of the debate. It is about making the American dream a fair proposal for all Americans not just the fortunate sons of the few.

How do we win in the South?

Some repeat language but this is from my Slashdot blog.

Listen I have lived in the South my whole life. Dems lose by closer margins in the South than in many other Republican dominated areas.

So, how can a Progressive Dem politico win in the South. Do some research about the governor race in LA and look at Mark Warner and then think about these points.

Listen you admit you are for a woman's right to choose and then shut up. The fundies will not vote for you anyway.

You are for hunters. Half of your PR photos in the South be you with a shotgun in your hand beside a nascar racing car.

Pump up the volume on tax credits for the working poor and closing loopholes for those rich folks who don't want to pay their taxes.

You talk about conserving nature for future generations of kids to enjoy. Talk about keeping the water clean to fish in and places for people to hunt.

Talk about connecting people to jobs. Getting folks off of welfare and into the workforce in a real way, a compassionate way. Dumping folks with no hope just makes no sense.

Talk about targetting education spending to those rural schools that have been left out and unfunded for too long.

Talk about small business initiatives and getting tough with corporations that want to run rough-shod over the small towns.

Talk about helping out family farmers with loans and subsidies to protect them because all the foreign farmers are protected the same way.

Talk about fiscal responsibilty and the need for the government to pay its bills and not borrow and spend its way into debt.

Wrap yourself up in the Bill of Rights and talk about getting government out of their personal lives.

You wrap progressive politics around a populist voice.

If you want examples look up Mike Warner's campaign in VA. He aimed his message at the people and in a Repuke dominated state came up tops.

[JaySherman]

12. No flame here. You hit it.

Fortunately or unfortunately. It's all about framing the debate. And by framing I DON'T mean Repug-style lies and distortion ::flame suit on::. Claiming the middle will be what wins or loses 2004.

Have you ever considered running for public office, BTW?

[corporatewhore]

13. Someone in our DK campaign said think Guthrie or cash not jello

[legin]

14. Great post again ACK nt

[w4rma]

15. That is a very very good list. I have one (and only one) suggestion.

Guns for protection should be included. Many folks, particularly in rural areas - far away from police stations, who own guns are not hunters, but want a gun for their protection/self-defense. I think that this also must be kept in mind when talking with likely gun owners.

[ACK]

17. Good point

Have to add that.

My mom kept a gun around becaus we lived in the woods and the neighbors got robbed. A shotgun.

[Leilani]

21. That is an excellent analysis!

I have always believed the majority of Americans agree with Dems rather than Repubs, but it is the rhetoric that kills them.

Your post proves this on a number of issues; the message needs to be reframed, but not the policies or goals.

May I address 2 cultural/wedge issues? On the fight for gay marriage, vs Defensive Marriage Act, stress that Dems are for equal rights for all people. Most Americans feel this way, but gay marriage is contentious.

Religion/Faith has tied up some Dems. Nobody should have to go around proclaiming beliefs which are not real. But Wes Clark handled this issue very effectively. He said he had studied all the major religions of the world, & they all had 1 thing in common: help those less fortunate than yourself. He said Dems believe this principle. It shows the hypocrisy of bible thumping Repubs.

[ACK]

22. Wrote that before the whole gay marriage issue came up...

How to frame it?

The way to present this is that we don't want the federal government mandating the institution of marriage. It is an issue best left up to the states and the courts to decide. The only time the federal government should come in is when there is an obvious infringement upon equal rights and civil liberties.

Why?

Considering the foul hateful mood of the federal legislature it is best to let this battle be fought state by state or you might up losing the entire farm with some nonsense admendment that will just have to taken out in a few decades when cooler heads prevail.

What do I believe? (can be different from what a candidate can or should say)

My personal belief is that marriage is a cultural and religious institution. The government should not be in the business of confirming such institutions. In the eyes of the law, there should only be civil unions. That keeps the church and state and culture from clashing on such issues.

_

[Leilani]

25. I agree completely!

On the framing & your personal opinion.

What is so ironic is that Repubs used to be the party of keeping their noses out of people's private issues. Now the parties have flipped.

I believe most people believe in privacy, & want the gov't to stay the heck out. And this also gets into civil liberties issues, which you discussed above.

[genius]

16. Tell Kerry to stand up for Hugo CHavez.

This is a big issue. Opposing CHavez is like opposing democracy. When did Kerry decided to become a Bush Yes-man? He needs to fix this-fast.

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. No, he doesn't.

Kerry IS standing up for the democratic process, which Chavez is currently trying to thwart.

[sangha]

30. Way to keep on topic!

I guess there aren't enough Kerry threads to discuss this issue in

[JI7]

18. i don't know, many pro nafta are pro choice, pro gay rights

many anti nafta are anti gay and anti choice. i know many republican women who vote democratic because the republican party is anti choice. they tend to either support nafta or just don't care for the issue at all.

[QC]

23. Embrace the working class again.

Since the Vietnam era, many on the Left have viewed the working class as ignorant reactionaries. (This attitude is on daily display at DU, where even the most exquisitely sensitive liberals feel perfectly free to dismiss millions as "rednecks" and "trailer trash," though they would sooner choke on their latté than ever say any other ethnic slur.)

Not surprisingly, people are generally reluctant to vote for those who accuse them of being knuckledragging fascists, so we lost a lot of voters for that reason, and also for the fact that our trade policies are pretty much indistinguishable from the GOP's. (After all, both parties favor so-called "free trade," which in practice amounts to little more than job exportation.

It's like Fred Harris said, "You can't have a mass movement without the masses." And, I would add, you can't get the masses on your side if you consider them a faceless, dirty, dangerous mass of others.

[ACK]

28. Bless you ... thanks

That sums it up so well.

I am so tired of hearing the noise about the sheeple and the ignorant shallow masses ruining the country.

Until we speak our progressive minds in a populist voice, we are lost.

Gore won the popular vote.

The people are not all knuckle dragging fascists.

It is time we remember that it took decades for the Republican thinktanks to tone their message and pound it into the white working class males of America.

It will not happen over night but we have to move in the new media and grassroots organizations to make our point in a way the people of America and in the media cannot ignore.

[QC]

29. Thanks!

[corporatewhore]

31. well not all the Left the anti-globalization left marches side by side

with the union members and small farmers.Like i have said left or right nobody likes their job going to india