TIme to stop the attacks on the liberal Democrats. The Party needs us.

[genius]

There are way too many attacks here on progressives. Progressives are the heart of the Democratic Party. Today, FDR and JFK would be wondering if they were welcome. The Republican Party wins, not by going to center but by going to the right. Likewise, if the Democratic Party distances the left, it is guaranteed to lose in November. The Democratic Party needs to reach out - not to purge potential Democratic voters. I'm willing to bet that most of Nader's votes come more out of anger to the purging than out of support for Nader. It's time the Democratic Party started to remember that people want a difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Kerry was doing fine in the debates, thanks to the influence of Kucinich and Sharpton. Now that the debates are over, he seems to be moving closer to Bush in his positions. He needs to stop this slide to the right. The Republicans won't help Kerry. Only the Democrats and the left will put him in the White House.

[Terry_M]

1. You got it all wrong.

We're a bunch of left extremists that must be ignored, and later blamed if Kerry loses.

[wyldwolf]

2. There are far more attacks on moderate democrats here...

FDR and JFK were not as liberal as many would have you believe. But that ground has been covered so much it is tiring.

What I think you are calling "progressives" are NOT the heart or base of the democratic party.

[sleipnir]

3. NO, the attacks will continue now and after Kerry loses

The core of the party is sadly now centrists and right-leaning Dems and they will need scapegoats to blame Nov's loss on, and who better than true Progressives who "refused to get behind Kerry", or whatever canard they plan to throw out at us.

[wyldwolf]

4. The core of the party has always been moderates

And it is also obvious that DU has a number of people who aren't clear on what "liberal" or "progressive" actually means. If they did, they'd know that Kerry is one of the most liberal senators in the party.

No, I see it playing out this way: If Kerry loses, the faux progressives here will say we should have run a "real" progressive like Howard Dean.

A direct question to sleipnir: Why are you sure Kerry will lose. Is that what you want?

[genius]

6. FDR, JFK, RFK were all far to the left of Kerrry's current positions

It's time for Kerry to get back on board.

[wyldwolf]

7. The operative word here is "current" right?

Typically, you cast aside 30 years of service for several positions in the past couple of years.

Comparitively, ALL the ones you mentioned had various positions to the left and right of each other. What you are doing is picking a few pet issues near and dear to you then defining "progressive" or "liberal" based on those issues.

[genius]

8. Right "current." Now is when Kerry needs to unite the party

Positions, like his current one on Chavez, will only help to split the party. I know he has potential based on his past record but I see him blowing it.

[wyldwolf]

9. No, he will not blow it...

The party is united as never before. You may have an issue with his position on Chavez, but I guarantee you the average dem voter couldn't care less about it.

We at DU are a bit more knowledgeable on the nitty gritty of current events because we make it our business to pay real close attention. The average dem voter does not and cares about one thing above all: Defeating Bush!

[genius]

11. Unfortunately a lot of strong Democrats are talking of voting third party.

It's not just Nader who is the beneficiary but the Natural Law Party and the Peace and Freedom Party. Where I live, there's also a "Rock and Roll Party."

Because Diebold has guaranteed Ohio to Bush (a gurananteed reality unless VCIAA passes)amd because Kerry may lose California to rigged computers, any rise among the third party candidates will be used to make people believe the rigged results are legit. Kerry's only hope is a landslide with the left uniting with the rest of the party.

[wyldwolf]

88. I'm watching Hardball right now and they're talking about the ..

Democratic Unity dinner last night.

Clinton. Gore. Kerry. Dean. Many others in attendance.

Former Dean campaign manager just said, "the democratic party is united like I've seen them before..."

So, tell me, who are these "strong dems who are talking about voting third party?"

Your conclusion is based on hypotheticals.

[tinanator]

112. deluded

kerry is pissing away would be voters like nobodies business. I might have had misgivings about voting elsewise until he piped up against Chavez. You can be absolutely damn sure that MANY hardcore lifelong Democrats (and I dont mean me, but ones I personally know) despise him if only for his recent record, which when actually looked at has everything in common with Bush. There aint nothing hypothetical about what is so easily predictable, we have been down this path so many times before. Republican lights cant beat Republican darks. Its called win-win if you are the power brokers who choose the candidates.

[wyldwolf]

134. deluded? Let's examine you're reply

kerry is pissing away would be voters like nobodies business.

We're talking about democrats, not would-be democrats. The party is unified. If those who have never really been in the party want to withhold their vote and pout, enjoy yourselves.

You can be absolutely damn sure that MANY hardcore lifelong Democrats (and I dont mean me, but ones I personally know) despise him if only for his recent record, which when actually looked at has everything in common with Bush.

See, I knew you were referring to people you "personally know." :eyes:

[tinanator]

136. youre free to live in whatever dreamworld you choose

but youre making eyes about people who go way back in the Democratic Party who make me look like the president of Kerry's fan club.
Fair warning.

[wyldwolf]

137. ok, I'll live in this dream world...

... Democrats have shown a rare ability to unite behind Kerry...

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/8278386.htm?1c

Dean's endorsement of Kerry, sealed with a hug, came hours before Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter joined them and other former top Democrats in an extraordinary display of unity at a star-studded fund-raising dinner.

Democrats said the event, which set aside years of personal disputes and shifting political tides, was a testament to the party's determination to dislodge President Bush.

The coordinated fund-raising and celebrity dinner reflected a unity and resolve to defeat Bush that political experts say is remarkable, especially for a Democratic Party that in past campaigns has carried nomination fights onto the floors of its summertime conventions.

"It is unprecedented that they've shown so much unity by the end of March," said analyst James Thurber, director of the Center for Congressional and Presidential Studies in Washington.


http://www.ktok.com/script/headline_newsmanager.php?id=276927&pagecontent=nationalnews&feed_id=59

"This is the most remarkable unity I've ever seen," said Carter, who received a sustained standing ovation from the crowd of over 2,000. He spoke not just of the party's single-mindedness to defeat Bush but also urged Democrats to band together against independent candidate Ralph Nader.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25805-2004Mar26.html

and source after source after source stating voter turnout was heavy in the earlier primaries.

Sounds like a lot of people like our chances.

[tinanator]

127. youre watching hardball and doubting the statements of others?

great source of info there.

[wyldwolf]

135. The sources on Hardball were great sources of info...

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. What Kerry did before the Coup does not matter.

Believe me, I'd much rather have the 1972 Kerry on the ballot. But that man would not have voted for the Patriot Act, the Iraq War, one of the tax cuts for the rich, or skipped out on other crucial votes that he might have turned against Bush had he bothered to show up.

That John Kerry would not have endorsed Ariel Sharon's brutality, nor would he have ever implied approval of the attempted coups in Venezuela.

The guy who has upheld the corporatist fascist PNAC agenda is the one who is on the ballot. If he wouldn't stand up for what was right in the last three years, what makes you think he will do so if elected?

[genius]

14. I think he was misguided and afraid

I think that if he is in a position of leadership he will do better. But, unless Congress turns Democrat, I don't expect to see much - especially judging from the way he's talking now.

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. "Misguided and afraid" just ain't gonna cut it

This is a guy whose supporters promote him as the expert on the duplicitous nature of the Bush Criminal Empire. Well, as an expert on those assholes myself, I can say that I instinctively assumed Junior was lying every single time he opened his mouth from day one. Kerry should have assumed no less. He knew exactly what he was voting for and he did so anyway. And that's why I don't expect a sudden return to liberalism from him or any other DLC sellout.

[genius]

24. We need to educate him. I still think there's hope for him.

It's the idiots he's surrounded himself with that are feeding him mis-information on a daily basis. Some of his own delegates are right-wingers who opposed him until he was winning. How about if we start a letter-writing campaign telling him to get rid of these right-wing nutcases who are corrupting his thinking.

[Zhade]

139. But if his thinking is already corrupted, won't such letters be pointless?

They'd be screened out before Kerry ever saw them anyway.

[wyldwolf]

89. On the contrary, it does matter...

..and he obviously has the stamp of approval - the way he steamrolled through the primaries.

The voters spoke.

[freeforall]

99. The voters, under the influence of

the media, spoke.

Still amazes me that Dean, who is progressive, and was well ahead, got trashed by the media in January and everybody swung to Kerry.

It seems to me that the people are too afraid to be progressive - try someone with a fresh outlook.

Will it be Bush -- or Bush-lite in Nov?

[wyldwolf]

106. ahh. blame the media...

... for people not voting for your guy! :eyes:
..and Dean is less of a "progressive" than Kerry. If either of the two is Bush-lite, Dean fits the description more.

[tinanator]

113. what makes you think the people voted for him?

this faith in the process cracks me up. BBV is just a fantasy, right?
Nobody in this great country would ever rig an election, right? The media doesnt sway people so much as it prepares them for their fate.

[wyldwolf]

132. Oh, ok, the primaries were rigged!

bwahahahahahahahaha!

The DNC hooked up with Diebold!

bwahahahahahahahahaa.

[Zhade]

140. It was likely Dean's call to break up Big Media that killed him.

Corporate media's not going to stand for anyone breaking up their profitable little empires.

[WilliamPitt]

10. Hm

FDR: Internment of thousands of innocent Japanese, possibly LIHOPed Pearl Harbor.

JFK: Several assassination attempts of Castro, stiff-armed the Civil Rights movement because working with them interfered with his legislative agenda, assassination of Diem, coup in Iraq, coups in South America, and let's not forget Vietnam.

RFK: One of the most prominent 'Red hunters' in America before his (some might say convenient) conversion pre-1968. Instruemtal in planning the assassination attempts of Castro, assassination of Diem, coup in Iraq, coups in South America, and let's not forget Vietnam.

I wish DU had been around starting in 1934. It'd be funny as fuck to see how few 'liberals' in our histoory can pass through the eye of the needle around here.

[genius]

12. About RFK

He also worked for Joe McCarthy. I think it was, in part, his conscience, that made him turn around and become such a strong opponent of everything for which he had once stood.

Everyone makes mistakes. Kerry's done a lot of good and yet, he supported the IWPR, U.S.A.-PATRIOT, NAFTA, and Homeland Security. I am working hard to convince people they can trust him and this distancing of the left is not helping.

[Constitution]

84. Give the man a break, you two.

RFK was one of the greatest leaders of the movement against the Vietnam War and he would have been the best President ever if the Republicans had not killed him. Everyone goes through a journey. You need to look at what they become at the end of that journey.

[JVS]

101. That end of the journey thing is what some have against Kerry

They don't like what he's been up to lately

[genius]

103. It creates a credibility problem. He needs to assure the liberals

that he's on their side.

[tinanator]

114. actions are louder than words

and his deeds were nothing but cowardly.

[Padraig18]

15. The radical left wants to be the tail that wags the dog.

In return for their 5% of the electorate, they wants to dictate the party's entire agenda for the 35% of the rest of us Democrats who are NOT radical leftists.

Fuck 'em!

[LandOLincoln]

17. Hear hear! I'm seeing less and less difference

between the far left and the far right, and I'm sick of their constant whining and attempts at emotional blackmail.

OTOH, I think it was monumentally fucked that DK wasn't invited tonight. Whose brilliant idea was that??

[genius]

18. We're about 45% of the electorate. Do a reality check sometime

Go to a rally. Go to a Democratic CLub. Go to a State Bar seminar. A great many people, including those who supported Kerry because of his believed electability, are among those you classify as the far left. The Republicrats have hijacked our party and are doing a disservice to Kerry and to his campaign. Most of the people running the party and a lot who are running Kerry's campaign are to the far right of Kerry. They may very well hand the election to Bush.

[Cuban_Liberal]

Oh, horseshit.

Only someone who was severely mathematically-challenged would believe that the far left makes up 45% of the electorate in America in 2004. Maybe 45% in some place like San Francsico, or Cambridge, or Madison, but not nationwide.:eyes:

[sangh0]

28. I knew the far left is often illogical

but 45%!!! That's just delusional

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. I know; time for Thorazine and Haldol delusional, even...

:shrug:

[genius]

45. Talk to your neighbors. Mine all want universal health care, etc

All the left issues are what most people want. 45% is actually an underestimate. Go out with a list of everything Dennis stands for and you'll find that those who oppose what the left stands for are in a very tiny minority. Those opposing the left are the ones whose votes are too few to count.

[blondeatlast]

58. Where do you live? It makes a difference.

I live in Arizona; my neighbors don't see things the way I do, as a general rule.

[genius]

104. I'm in the most Republican part of the most Republican county in CA

Amazingly, I keep running into liberals everywhere I go. If there are liberals here, I bet there are a lot more in the liberal areas of the state.

[sangh0]

59. Uh-huh. That's very interesting. Could you say more?

and could you wait a minute while I step back quietly? Don't worry, I'll be right back

[wyldwolf]

90. Universal healthcare is a mainstream democratic issue

... nothing "far left" about it.

[Phelan]

142. until one does the math ;)

[wyldwolf]

144. well, then, do the math and show us?

[blondeatlast]

47. Say whaaaaaat?

Gimme a citation--I'm a DK supporter, but I'm getting pretty tired of those in my range who think the party MUST cater to them.

I'll work within the party to bring it to the left, TYVM.

[Adelante]

73. blondeatlast

I love your name and your common sense. :)

[5thGenDemocrat]

40. Darn right, Padraig

I wouldn't give a good goddamn if the Dems had nominated Tom Johnson, Andrew Johnson or Lyndon Johnson nor Howard Dean, Dizzy Dean or Jimmy Dean. I am a Democrat and I will vote Democrat in November, just as I always have since I was old enough to vote.
Frankly, I don't care what Kerry's position re: Chavez is, what his vote on Iraq was or whether Martians had implanted a radio receiver in his head. All I care about is that he isn't the Cheerleader-in-Chief. He carries our standard and that's good enough for me.
John
People who want to piss their vote away on Nader or the Natural Law Party are welcome to do so. This used to be a free country and I encourage them to vote their conscience -- so long as they're sure they can live with that conscience following next January's inauguration.

[VelmaD]

44. Wait a minute...

define "radical leftists". I'm pretty far out to the left when you get right down to it. In a perfect world I'd be a communist for pete's sake. But I'm also a pragmatist and the most loyal Democratic voter you'll ever meet.

So watch it with the "Fuck 'em".

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. I don't think he meant that the way you took it, VelmaD

The way I read it, it meant if you want to control the party's agenda, show the electoral strength neccessary to do that; I took it as a 'fuck a tyranny of the minority' comment... :shrug:

[Padraig18]

66. You're right, C_L. Sorry, VelmaD!

I'm just becoming quite annoyed at being beaten about my political head and shoulders by a small minority of the party who absolutely demand that we do it their way. Our party is a polyglot, with left, middle and right wings, and currently the moderates have the upper hand. As such, the moderates should be shaping the direction our party takes this year.

That's all I meant, VelmaD.

[VelmaD]

69. Ok, we're cool now

:hug:

A point though. I wonder if the moderates are really the majority of the party either or if they're just the majority of the money.

I'm also frankly very leery of "moderates" who used to be republicans. Remember I'm from Texas and my party here has been overrun by "former" republicans who don't really believe in the ideals and principles the Democratic party was founded on.

[Padraig18]

70. I'd be shell-shocked, if i lived in TX.

I really don't know the answer to your question, VelmaD. :hug:

[blondeatlast]

61. So right, but there are many who aren't pragmatists on our side.

I want DK represented on stage and at the platform, but many just don't see beyond their candidate to the ultimate goal of defeating the BFEE.

That's where the frustration comes in. Perhaps what we DK supporters ought to be doing is building up support for his issues.

[blondeatlast]

41. How very true.

They are young, Will, they will learn.

[greatauntoftriplets]

46. Not true.

The older I get, the farther left I move. I am 54.

[redqueen]

50. ^5

:yourock:

[blondeatlast]

51. I have as well--but I also become more pragmatic.

Bush is the enemy.

[no name no slogan]

97. Me three!

In college in 1988, I actively campaigned for Dukakis during the primaries.

These days at 34, I find I've become a lot more cynical and a lot more left than I used to be. The more I see this country fcuking over the people that build it every day, the angrier (and more active) I get.

[dae]

108. Add me to the list as well. Does this make it a consensus?

:)

[Redneck Socialist]

124. Thank you Will

"I wish DU had been around starting in 1934. It'd be funny as fuck to see how few 'liberals' in our history can pass through the eye of the needle around here."

That's funny as hell...and very true.

[no name no slogan]

So was Nixon, for that matter

Nixon talked about a national healthcare system, funded by the government. He also talked about giving the poor $1000 per year to get them above the poverty line.

He also started the EPA and signed Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act into law. And he was considered a moderate Republican at the time.

Fast forward to 2004, where even mentioning such ideas as a Democrat gets you either burned at the stake or summarily ignored by the party elites.

It boggles the mind to see how far to the right the Mighty Wurlitzer has moved the entire political spectrum and debate. Unfreakingbelievable.

[genius]

54. Did you ever think we would be calling Nixon a leftist liberal?

By the standards of those trying to kick the liberals out of the Democratic Party, Nixon was an extreme leftist fringe liberal.

[mike_c]

20. no, one like Dennis Kucinich....

But Why bother arguing about it. There's always the Green Party if the Democrats don't want us, and if we're as uniportant as you suggest, it won't really make any difference anyway. Except to those of us who still want to vote without holding our noses....

[wyldwolf]

91. No, there's always the green party if the dems don't bow down and...

... and kiss your ass.

[genius]

105. The Peace and Freedom Party is running Leonard Peltier

If I were into protest votes, which I'm not, he's preferable to Nader.

[genius]

5. Kerry has the potential to be great. If he'd stop blowing it, he'd win

His main problem is that he needs an advisor who knows that Fox News sometimes lies.

[sleipnir]

107. No I don't want Kerry to lose, but I'm a realist in some ways

I believe that Americans want Kerry and will vote for him and he will win the Pop vote, but will lose due to either the Electoral college or he'll get Diebolded. I think honestly the two will go hand in hand. I don't like Kerry that much but I want him to win, I just don't see it happening. There's no way the Bushistas are going to give up power, unless it was a landslide victory which Clark would have brought.

[Cuban_Liberal]

16. No, you guys need to learn basic arithmetic

You make up maybe 10-15% of our party ---max --- and the remaining 85-90% are moderates and conservatives. Why should you dicatate the direction of the party?

[redqueen]

21. In response to this and Padraig's statement above

I must ask, who is demanding that we dictate anything?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought we just wanted a damn seat at the table. Is that really so much to ask?

[Cuban_Liberal]

25. YOU are a reasonable person, redqueen.

I've read your postings, and yes, you want a seat at the table; I have no problem with that. Sadly, far too many on the left want to go back to the post-1968 Democratic party, where the left was blatantly over-represented in decision making, etc. . Those are the people I think both he and I refer to.

[redqueen]

32. Okies

Works for me!

I just want something... anything... to restore the faith the left has demonstrated.

C'mon Kerry, throw us a bone or two! :)

[Cuban_Liberal]

53. No problem.

I support universal health care, e.g., as does any sane person. I think NAFTA is deeply flawed, and needs to be reworked. I think we need to get out of Iraq, etc. . I think what separates the left and the middle is far smaller than it appears here, i.e., it's not so much what we need to do, but how we should do it. :)

[blondeatlast]

67. Too much to expect for a bone to be thrown--let's push Dennis'

issues. WE have to do it--the DNC isn't going to.

The issues are why Dennis remains in the race. He wants his time on the stage and his name in the platform. I plan on seeing that he gets both!

[redqueen]

115. That's why I'll be lobbying for those resolutions tomorrow as a delegate

for Kucinich at my county convention. :)

So yeah, I pretty much accepted LONG ago that the DNC didn't want to have anything to do with actually reforming anything for the better.

[genius]

30. Thank you. Well said, Redqueen.

You're absolutely right.

[redqueen]

33. To be honest

I think even the fringies that go third party serve a noble purpose.

To wit, they influenced FDR's wildly successful takeover! :D

Thanks, fringe leftists! :yourock:

[sangh0]

36. It depends

I thought we just wanted a damn seat at the table. Is that really so much to ask?

It depends. If the positions you (and by you, I don't mean you specifically. I'm referring to anyone who wants a seat at that table) want to advocate from that seat at the table are ones that will help the Dems attract votes, then they will be happy to give you that seat. However, if the positions you advocate result in your have nothing to bring to that table (ie "votes") then my advice is not to expect any such invitations.

I'd also like to point out that this applies to everyone, including Dems. I'm a loyal Dem but I'm not going to be invited to that table unless I bring something to it. Not having influence, power, or a following, I have nothing to bring.

[blondeatlast]

71. There's a platform to be built, and the reasonable DK supporters

(as I like to think I am) want a piece of it.

UHC is a viable, winning issue. That alone would make me happy, and that's the issue I fight for the most. I want the DNC to seriously consider it, bring thier marketing skills to selling it. It could be a winning issue as long as its dressed up right.

[sangh0]

111. I have to agree with you

I think UHC is a winning issue. I would hope that someone would make a central issue and show the party that it will get votes.

[JVS]

62. Too much to ask. Get over it

;-)

[redqueen]

63. LOL

:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:
:cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr: :cry: :grr:





changed yer mind yet? ;)

[blondeatlast]

65. That's why those of us on the left of the Party need to focus

on the issues.

Why do you think Dennis is still in? He has to know he's out of it, but he wants to push his agenda.

Instead of us dragging the nominee down, let's push DK's issues up--straight to several planks in the platform. A concerted effort can help tremendously.

[Padraig18]

68. Exactly.

You'll gain not a single sympathetic ear if you tear down the presumptive nominee and call those who supported him knaves and fools; however, if you push your issues in a positive manner, as DK is doing, you may well find broad support for many of them--- universal healthcare, fair trade, etc. .

[AntiCoup2K4]

23. Guess you better change your name then

Since you just admitted you are no liberal.

[Cuban_Liberal]

26. No.

I simply refuse to equate 'liberal' with 'fringe left'.

[genius]

48. So do you think Bush and Scalia are liberal?

It's important to be using the same dictionary.

[Cuban_Liberal]

56. WTF?

What in God's name would make you even ask such an utterly ridiculous question? :wtf:

[mike_c]

27. and if we're so numerically unimportant, why should you care...

...if we vote for a third party candidate who better represents our perspectives? I presume you won't be moaning about Nader or the Green Party candidate if Kerry loses in a squeaker?

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. Nope, because I never have.

Check any of my posts-- you won't find me in the 'piss and moan about Nader' group.

[genius]

34. Then I guess you're glad Bush is in the White House

If Nader hadn't run in 2000, Bush wouldn't have been able to steal the election. The attitudes of the neo-conservative Democrats, or whatever they really, are going to guarantee Bush another four years.

[Cuban_Liberal]

38. No, I'm not glad.

And you opinion of the cause of the 2000 coup d'etat is just that--- an opinion. I hold a different one.

[redqueen]

35. Gotta give you props for that!

:loveya:

[Cuban_Liberal]

43. Thanks.

It's intellectually dishonest to blame Nader, when ignoring the other, more obvious problems in the 2000 campaign/election. :)

[Zhade]

141. To be fair, I read it differently.

I got the impression that Genius meant that Nader's run made it easier to hide the theft, at least for a while.

I'm pretty sure, based on past posts, that Genius is aware of the reality of the 2000 Coup.

[SendTheGOPPacking]

22. Keep in mind there is always a shift to the center before an election

[no name no slogan]

37. But that old "center" is now considered "fringe lefty"

Any candidate who even MENTIONS core Democratic values from even 20-30 years ago is belittled and/or ignored. Who would have thought, even 20 years ago, this (ostensibly) pro-labor party would be in favor of such a destructive trade policy as NAFTA? Or against a federally-funded universal health care program-- something that has been in the platform for 30 years?

Like I've said before, this party has slithered so far right in the last 12 years that it makes Tricky Dick Nixon look like a bleeding heart liberal in comparison.

[SendTheGOPPacking]

76. Oh I agree. I was responding to the original posters comment that

Kerry was doing fine during the debates and now seems to be shifting more to the right. Whil nothing specific was mentioned, I don't think, I only pointed out that in every campaign there is a shift to the center in order to win the election. (votes) It's just not unusual.

I'm a frustrated lefty myself, and I think that right turn has been been taking place for longer than 12 years, more like 25 maybe, or since Reagan.

[redqueen]

39. Is there?

I mean, it's logical to think that way, given that I was born in '69 so missed all the lefty stuff...

but, what about the FDR platform? I mean... all this time I've been laboring under the impression that FDR campaigned center, then went left after inauguration ... now today I find out he actually incorporated planks from the socialist party into his platform!

I mean, if this is wrong, then please someone let me know... this floored me!

I really shoulda gone to college, eh? :silly:

[sangh0]

64. If you're referring to our earlier discussion, you may be mistaken

I'm not sure if you're referring to our earlier discussion, or if you're referring to someothing someone else said, but as far as I know, the socialistic programs that FDR co-opted from the Socialists were not incorporated into the DNC's platform. (I could be wrong about this. It's AFAIK)

[redqueen]

121. Yeah that was what I was referring to

Just makes me more curious to know how it all played out, really. Thanks for the clarification!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. I think BOTH should lay off each other

The hallmark of SANE policy is debate. Leftists have something to contribute as do moderates.

People constantly claim progressives have the moral high ground, but one could argue whether they had the moral high ground in the 50's and 60's with their humane FORCED sterilization programs which inadvertently affected minorities worse than white folks.

Unintended consequences are indeed possible from wherever you find yourself on the political compass. Welfare fraud is an unintended consequence on a social program designed to provide a safety net, much like Al Queda is an unintended consquence of empowering extremists to fight your wars for you.


Isn't it in everyone's interests to partner up against a HARD RIGHT TURN?

[redqueen]

55. Reading what you said about that crap from the 50's / 60's

reminded me of something Dennis said... something about the eagle needing both wings to fly... it's cheesy but it's true! :)

Checks and balances, right? No side of anything is ever right about everything all of the time. Ever. I think it's an immutable law, but it hasn't been proven yet. ;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Exactly.

Checks and balances.

I don't want congress to become an echo chamber for either side and we both know authoritarian governments spring from both extremes...

I'll take a healthy mix of lefties, moderates and conservatives...heck even the extreme right wasn't WRONG about Randy Weaver's family's death although I still feel Weaver was contributory.

[nomaco-10]

52. I'd be really interested in some of those here....

definition of the "left". Do you only mean Nader? I don't think so, I think there are many here that think Kucinich and Howard Dean qualify in your minds as being the "lefties", you just won't come out and say it, but anybody reading between the lines knows exactly who you are referring to. Therein lies the problem. I also think alot of you think that those of us that opposed the Iraqi war or protested the WTO and NAFTA are perceived as those "lefties" that are trying to take the party away from you moderates. I opposed the Iraqi war, but I felt it was necessary to go into Afghanistan, so that blows that theory all to hell.

The true feeling of many on this board seethes just beneath the surface. Speak up, you're certainly not a bashful group of people.

Here lately when posters throw out the word "leftie" it's more than apparent it is done with the same kind of vitriol that the repubs use when they snarl up their face and call us "liberals". I remember when being called a "leftist" was a good thing, silly me, I just thought it was the opposite of "right wing". Personally, I'm more worried about the Lieberman and Zell Miller wing of our party at present.

Nice post genius. Thanks.

[Hav]

60. .

"Time to stop the attacks on the liberal Democrats."

After you...;) joke

I would have also considered many more here being "liberal Democrats". It seems now that a more or less small group has taken that label exclusively for themselves.

While I think that we have to find a way to come together, it is my persuasion that it has to come from both sides. I understand when the "far left"(I hate using these descriptions) wants to believe that this Democratic Party doesn't represent them. But they also have to understand that the Dems can't win elections and achieve anything by being far left. It is simply not true that they make up something like 45% of the electorate.
They should also understand that a Kerry Administration would be by far more likely to somehow please the demands of "leftists" than the current Bush Administration. That should be a no-brainer.
You can choose a third party but we all know that this will hardly give you any chances to see your goals achieved.

[youngred]

72. The party needs us

its the people in the party who forget that at their own peril...

I will support the party, but I need something in return other than animosty and kow-towing to the worst interests of the country. Some people here need to realise that they need our votes (aparently 2000 meant nothing to them) and that we DO make up heart and base of the party.

[Padraig18]

74. But you also need the party.

That's the other half of the equation no one wants to remember, it seems to me; without the Democratic party as a vehicle, there would be little hope of ever achieving your agenda, because the only other viable political party isn't going to help you at ALL...

[genius]

77. No we don't. I've done the math and the party needs us.

There are enough people who agree with the progressive issues that we could take our votes and walk and form a new Democratic party. The remaining Democratic Party would be smaller than the Green Party. The trouble would be convincing everyone who agrees with us to jump ship and they wouldn't jump to a third party. However a name like "The Real Democrats" and some major players shifting to the more progressive version of the party would probably be all we'd need. Of course, the Republicrats who have stolen the leadership of our party would be smart to reach out and include us so we don't do something of that nature.

[Padraig18]

78. That's utterly absurd.

Lay out your impressive 'math' on that absurd claim. If you left, you'd be larger than the Greens, but about the size of the Libertarians--- maybe. :eyes:

[Hav]

79. rofl

I think you don't understand how the large majority of the population or most Dems feel.

[blondeatlast]

82. Or we could push our issues from within, as I do.

We are not gonna get an end to NAFTA, UHC, a Supreme COurt that will uphold the Constitution, etc. from the current administration.

We might get it from the incoming one, if we push hard enough and prove DK's issues to be winners (amny really are).

Choose your own course, but this lefty is staying a Democrat.

As the bumpersticker said--"Vote Democratic--the ass you save may be your own."

It most decidedly is this year.

[Constitution]

83. I'll jump. I assume these are plans for after the November election.

You've said you are planning to vote for Kerry if he gets the nomination. But, as for the Democratic Party, that looks like a workable plan. I'm fed up too. I've had it with the conservatives who think they have the right to speak for the rest of us.

[youngred]

86. I know I need the party

which is why I'm a Democrat (duh)

The point is instead of alienatinga nd attacking the left perhaps it would be beneficial to.....I dunno....WORK WITH THEM????

Only through working together can we beat the pubbies...stupid infighting only helps Bush

[Padraig18]

116. You're intelligent enough to see that.

Sadly, many self-proclaimed pillars of liberal thought and emlightenment here at DU don't want to work within the party, but have chosen to berate the rest of us as Philistines, and worse.

Just proves that you're smarter than they are, Zach. :)

[youngred]

118. Nah, not phillistines

just misguided ;-)

There is really only one option in finding a balance between one's idealism and one's pragmatism. I know the vast majority of what I wish will not be seen in my lifetime, but I can try for as much as I can get, and the best way to do that is to work from within the party to change its direction and prevent any further reactionary slides from the likes of Bushie.

Thank you Paddy :-)

[blondeatlast]

75. Push the issues, then, instead of feeling victimized.

That's what this DK supporter will do.

[DaveSZ]

80. Kerry is a liberal democrat

Or so I thought...?

Obviously he's no Kucinich. :)

[Constitution]

81. Kerry is liberal. The trouble is his advisers are not.

Genius is right. I also know lots of people heavily involved in the Kerry campaign who are almost right-wing. Why are they working for him? How much influence do they have?

[AntiCoup2K4]

93. Kerry has completely sold out to the DLC, which is now owned by PNAC

He's well aware that those surrounding him are right wingers. Why should that bother him, as he's spent the last three years voting their agenda? Which is the same as Bush's agenda.

[wyldwolf]

94. which is nothing but a tall tale created by far leftists

..Kerry has a blue ox named Babe, too.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

95. He has NOT spent the last three years voting their agenda

There are exactly three votes you can claim that about...today for instance he voted against the FETUS BILL OF RIGHTS.

[Groosalugg]

96. You're right.

He has sold-out. He did vote with Bush on a many of issues, including: The Iraq War Resolution, the Patriot Act, and others.

[wyldwolf]

98. which others?

[SendTheGOPPacking]

100. That's only 2. Where are the many others?

[genius]

102. Homeland Security, part of the tax bill , NCLB, and previously for NAFTA

Also, his statements about Chavez are undemocratic and pro-corporate. He has a credibility problem with the left and he cannot address that by moving to the right.

[wyldwolf]

109. He has a credibility problem with the leftist purists...

...but that is ok. So does everyone.

[youngred]

119. Now that's really fair

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

131. More fair than saying, "He has a credibility problem with the left "

:eyes:

[genius]

128. He has a crediblity problem with the workers and civil liberties advocates

Also with the voters rights advocates. I'm voting for him anyway. But he needs to address the issue.

[wyldwolf]

130. Show me where said organizations have expressed reservations?

[genius]

133. Why do you think that unions only belatedly supported him?

They have a problem with his stance on NAFTA.

[wyldwolf]

143. Again, Show me where said organizations have expressed reservations?

[wyldwolf]

110. You're assuming these issues are "undemocratic."

When did YOU make that decision for the rest of us?

[ibegurpard]

120. Probably the same time YOU made the decision for the rest of us

that they ARE.

[wyldwolf]

129. What a lame Pee Wee Herman comeback

I've made no judgement as to whether they are or not.

[youngred]

87. That's what I'm doing

and why is one post considered the sum total of my feelings on the matter?

85. how many of these threads are we going to have?

I actually agree with you.
Stop the attacks on liberal Democrats.
But stop the attacks on moderate Democrats also.

The best way is to make energetic progress in the good. Quit giving energy to these denominational disputes and look at the big picture.

Both sides of this supposed chasm need to do this.

Geez, do you people just like to argue? Is that what it is?

Argue with Bush then.:)

[wyldwolf]

92. many many more...

..until someone archives them in one place so we can refer to them for the people who just want to keep whining.

[mzmolly]

117. The attacks on all sides need to STOP! This is no time for bullshit

we have a battle to win here!

This is a time when families have to come together. It's like the family that has been fighting for years, then suddenly a rele comes down with a serious illness and all is put aside while that person heals.

We can get back to rambunctious/entertaining/stimulating dysfunction later on folks ;) Now is simply NOT the time.

[IrateCitizen]

122. But, but... it's so much more fun to focus on the 20% we disagree...

rather than the 80% on which we actually find convergence!

These kinds of threads are so pointless, it makes me shake my head in bewilderment why they continue to pop up, day after day.

Then I think about the title of this post I just made, and it occurs to me once again.

[mzmolly]

123. I agree, and they are popping up from both sides of this silly debate.

Let's get on with it folks! *sheesh*

[Hav]

126. .

I'm really frustrated as well that several here would rather let the chance pass that several of their goals could get realised when the candidate doesn't stand for 100% of the things that they believe in.
Instead, the alternative would not only not give them any of their goals, but it would also lead to a deterioration.

125. mzmolly, wyldwolf, irate citizen

Thank you.

[Uzybone]

138. Rubbish

Yeah JFK and FDR were more liberal than Kerry or Gore or even centrist Dean. :eyes: What crap.