I take issue with this forum...

[AmyStrange]

no offense to anyone posting positive threads, but I don't really see a whole lot of constructive post here.

What I mean by constructive are post that help get Kerry elected. The meetup post are ok and so are the polls and donate now post and news about Kerry and the election, but none of them really help get Kerry elected.

What I'd like to see more of are post about local mailing list or yahoogroups where we can get together and decide local strategies or maybe discuss strategies here or talking points about what folks might ask us about Kerry while we are out campaigning or voter registration strategies and letter writing ideas for the local newspapers.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you could all fill in the blanks if y'all wanted to help. For my part, here is an excellent yahoogroup for Kerry here in Washington state:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WA_Kerry_2004/


d

[genius]

1. I think that some anti-liberals are turning off part of Kerry's base here

Kerry's been my second favorite candidate from the beginning. But these anti-liberal threads almost make me feel like packing up my vote and going elsewhere. Kerry's campaign needs to discourage all the anti-liberal nonsense I see in this forum.

[JohnKleeb]

4. yeah its bothersome I know

I wish Kerry's campaign could do something about it but I dont think they can but if my indidvual concern matters, I know youre a DK fan and believe me theres no one I admire more, but heres my philo, I believe he should stay in the race and influence the platform. Kucinich and Kerry both rock. I am sorry the other lefties have to deal with this.

[AmyStrange]

5. I don't want the anti-liberal nonsense stopped...

personally I don't care for it either, but rather than get rid of people, create a forum strictly for bashing. It would draw all the flies that usually congregate in this forum away to that forum.

Maybe create a group specifically just for those banned. They couldn't visit any other forum but theirs, but those who weren't banned could visit, but only if they donated a dollar a month to the DU. That would be a very entertaining forum and probably bring in some cash for the DU,

d

[rucky]

65. THAT'S WHAT THIS FORUM IS

Bashing.

GD is where it's at, if you want constructive discussion. It's not like Kerry's off limits over there (just Kucinich).

[wyldwolf]

50. when did you decide what "liberal" and "anti-liberal" is?

Show me, please, some "anti-liberals" on DU (with adequate number of posts to be sure they're not disruptors)

I don't think you can.

[genius]

70. Look at some of the titles in this forum.

Or have someone read them to you.

[wyldwolf]

72. I believe it is you with the problem of perception

[JI7]

2. well, this IS just mostly discussion board

with people from around the world on here. so it's not very helpful to use this board to organize and other things. you can use it to inform others of places they can go and things , but it's mostly just discussion here. i'm sure many on here are part of groups that actually do help in strategies and other things though.

[AmyStrange]

3. Then what's the point of this forum than?

I have no prob with discussion, but there is a lot that could be discussed involving strategy, but mostly I see cheerleading and bashing.

The bashing is interesting but not constructive and the cheerleading reminds me of us Deanies in December and look where that got us,

d

[JI7]

6. i think that is what this forum is mostly about

it's a place for people to just talk about whatever they want, and usually it's because they are either very happy about something or angry about something.

[incapsulated]

7. True

I don't know of anyone that organized their Clark, Dean, Dennis etc. meetups and stuff on DU.

Occasionally, some of that is done here, especially when there is something coming up that people want everyone possible to be aware of, like a fundraiser or something. Or plea's for donations.

But, really, right now it's just yak. There will be a lot more to discuss once the campaign gets into full swing. We're kind of in limbo now, before the convention, before Kerry picks a running mate.

[AmyStrange]

8. I learned about meet-up here...

and about Dean back in June of 2002 here and chatted with local folks about war protest and meetings etc. so now you know someone who got info here. It can be done except more folks are interested in releasing testosterone than ideas,

d

[incapsulated]

10. Well...

Although that's true, there is the Kerry blog.

I haven't been spending much time here, myself. I've got my own bb to run and any fundraising activities I've been involved in are wrapped up with ex-Clarkies for Kerry type of thing.

It's really up to the hardcore Kerry people to post info, as far as I'm concerned. I'm totally out of any Kerry loop, myself. I'm just now thinking about doing stuff for Kerry, directly, and what I've read about the meetups isn't encouraging. I'll post anything I can here that's relevant, when I get more involved.

[AmyStrange]

17. I would like to get a link to...

your bb. You can certainly send this to me PM if you want.

W'all just need to get off all this bashing stuff. It doesn't help get BUSH OUT,

I own a Seattle4Dean yahoogroup and we're switching over to helping get local dems and Kerry elected.

d

[AmyStrange]

9. The DU Lounge is mostly about that...

but this forum is about getting Bush out and bashing don't help in THAT respect. I think bashing threads should be moved to the main General Discussion forum - BUT, that's just MY opinion,

d

[JI7]

11. it's partly about getting bush out

people have different ideas of how to get bush out and sometimes they conflict and that's how the arguments start.

[AmyStrange]

13. Those discussions should hashed out in the GD forum...

or the "POLITICS and CAMPAIGNS" forum.


This forum should be strictly about getting BUSH OUT,

in my opinion,

d

[AmyStrange]

15. In lateral response to post #12 (BigMcLargeHuge)...

Bashing folks is not a (Getting Bush Out) GDC2004 discussion, but an ONGOING "Politics and Campaign" discussion which will has been going on LONG before this election and will GO on FAR BEYOND this one,

that's what is meant by "Politics and Campaign" - in my opinion,

d

[blondeatlast]

52. There are plenty of strategy threads, you just have to cut through lots o'

crap to find them.

[BigMcLargehuge]

12. the Politics and Campaigns forum is designed for campaigning

and might be better for fundraising and setting up meetings

[AmyStrange]

14. I disagree...

that forum is for "general" discussion of "Politics and Campaigns".

THIS forum is about getting BUSH OUT and how can you say that fundraising and meetings and strategies and talking point isn't about getting BUSH OUT?

d

[no name no slogan]

16. You should take this up with the mods, we can't do anything about it

and if you don't like the forum itself, there's no gun to your head forcing you to go here...

:hi:

[AmyStrange]

19. ?????

how does your post help futher the discussion?

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

18. it's easy

I can say "fundraising and meetings and strategies and talking point isn't about getting BUSH OUT?" because I used to moderate this forum. I guarantee that experience puts me in a better place to understand the forum than you because I've participated in it from the inside out.

The politics and campaigns forum is better suited to organizing and fundraising while THIS forum is better suited to analysing and discussing events RELATED to the campaign.

[incapsulated]

20. Wait...

"The politics and campaigns forum is better suited to organizing and fundraising while THIS forum is better suited to analysing and discussing events RELATED to the campaign."

Isn't this the politics and campaigns forum?

:crazy:

Edit: Ok, now I know what you mean, lol. I've gotta get some sleep!

[AmyStrange]

21. Exactly...

"THIS forum is better suited to analysing and discussing events RELATED to the campaign."


How are posting gatherings and talking strategies about Kerry NOT RELATED to THIS campaign?

And, how is political discussion concerning bashing people RELATED to THIS campaign? How does THIS help Kerry?

d

[incapsulated]

22. I guess this is a catch-all forum

For any non-specific campaign related issue. Including Kerry bashing.

So, what happened to the "new rules"? :shrug:

Honestly, though, I'm a one forum kinda gal. If I had something campaign related to say, I would say it here, as many others have.

[BigMcLargehuge]

25. right, but that's different than trying to organize out of this forum

GD:C04 moves waaaay to fast to effectively organize out of as everything about the campaign ends up here (and usually bursts into flames).

[incapsulated]

27. That's a good point

Although I know we Clarkies have managed to keep a thread going long enough to get a message out. But we tend to look for Clark threads, and Kerry threads are the majority.

I don't really use DU for organizing purposes, though, myself. Unless it's a general shout-out about something. There are plenty of forums and blogs dedicated to organizing issues.

I guess Amy feels there should be more legitimate strategy discussion going on here. She may have a point, but people will post what they want to, you can't make them do that.

[AmyStrange]

38. no but you can certainly move post...

that bash people to the "politics and campaign" forum. Bashing people isn't what Kerry about. Bashing people seems to be what general "politics and campaigns" are about. I don't think bashing people should be part of the Kerry campaign. This should be more about talking and discussing strategies and arganizing as it SPECIFICALLY pertains to the Kerry campaign or just GETTING BUSH OUT.

How does bashing people get BUSH OUT?

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

39. perhaps you've made a mistake with your browser

I think the site you're looking for is:

http://www.johnkerry.com/

[AmyStrange]

43. No I didn't...

the whole point of this board from the very beginning was figuring out how to GET BUSH OUT. Check out Skinner's article about the first seven days of the DU Underground if you don't believe me:

the "First Seven Days Underground" by Skinner:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/01/010127_7days.html
mirror: http://www.seattleactivist.org

Helping get Kerry elected is part of the overall plan which includes discussing strategies and organizing and anyone who was here from the beginning knows this is true. How does bashing people get Kerry elected?

d

[AmyStrange]

28. mostly because...

this forum is where the MOST people hang out (other than the DU lounge) and that's why people who ar dissing people for OTHER campaigns (past and future) other than this one KNOW they can be heard - in other words, they get to grind an axe and get away with it.

And worse of all is that some regular folks here are arguing that those axes are considered part of THIS campaign, but at the same time think that strategies that help GET BUSH OUT this year shouldn't be part of THIS forum???

((((HUGz)))) to all the "real" GET BUSH OUT folks,

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

30. so then you're suggesting banning all who speak ill of Kerry

or support the other candidates running (last time I checked there were still a few)? Let me just make sure I understand...

[AmyStrange]

35. banning people?

where do you get THAT from any of my post. This is a board with different forums. This forum is about GETTING BUSH OUT.

Bashing people should be moved to the "politics and campaigns" forum, because bashing people isn't about HELPING KERRY, it's about "poilitics and campaigns" in general,

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

37. THIS isn't a forum about "helping kerry"

this is a forum for discussion of the GENERAL ISSUES related to the Democratic Campaign. Not specigically the Kerry campaign.

[AmyStrange]

41. so I can post threads about getting Dean Elected as President?

bashing people doesn't help any democratic candidate.

"Bashing people" threads should be moved to "politics and campaigns" and helping get BUSH OUT is the most important thing. Getting local dems elected helps Kerry too.

Bashing folks don't... not in THIS campaign anyway,

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

42. yes you can

Dean is still on the ballot in several states yet to have their primary votes cast and tallied.

[AmyStrange]

45. No you can't...

not without being bashed anyway.

Besides, which states is he still on the ballot?

In my opinion, they are legitimate post as long as they don't bash other candidate's supporters.

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

23. that is irrelevant to your original post

where you chastized everyone in GDC04 then made the following suggestions:

What I'd like to see more of are post about local mailing list or yahoogroups where we can get together and decide local strategies or maybe discuss strategies here or talking points about what folks might ask us about Kerry while we are out campaigning or voter registration strategies and letter writing ideas for the local newspapers.


This is the sort of stuff that gets organized in the Politics and Campaigns forum. Yes, this is General Discussion: Campaign 2004, this is where discussion of the Bush/Kerry race occurs. This is not the place to organize for Kerry, that's in the OTHER forum.

Whether bashing Kerry or lamenting the actions of "leftist dems" or whatever is conducive to the Kerry campaign is arguable, but this is where those arguments take place.

If you want to organize, use the Politics and Campaigns forum. The added benefit is that your posts will probably stay around longer because THAT forum doesn't move so quickly.

[AmyStrange]

24. I disagree again...

"Politics and campaigns" is for general political and campaign discussion and strategy.

THIS FORUM is for specific "political and campaign" discussion concerning getting BUSH OUT THIS YEAR,

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

26. whatever

read it however you want.

[AmyStrange]

31. Whatever?

What's your point of posting on this thread than?

Are you saying you want to keep all meeting announcements and talking strategies FOR the Kerry campaign OUT of THIS forum, but bashing should be allowed?

Just curious more than anything.

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

32. my point of posting on this thread

was to offer you a helpful pointer to a forum at DU better suited to organizing for John Kerry. But, apparently, what you REALLY seem interested in is encouraging the banishment of all who disagree with you with regard to the tone of discussion in this forum.

I tried to explain myself, you didn't listen.

Whatever.

[AmyStrange]

34. banishment?

I never said banish people.... I was suggesting this forum should be for HELPING GET BUSH OUT. More group notices and talking strategies would be MORE helpful than bashing people. Bashing people post should be moved to the "Politics and campaign" forum because bashing people isn't about the Kerry campaign, but about campaigns and politics in general,

d

[BigMcLargehuge]

36. you certainly asserted banishing people

allow me to refresh your memory (emphasis added by me)

this forum is where the MOST people hang out (other than the DU lounge) and that's why people who ar dissing people for OTHER campaigns (past and future) other than this one KNOW they can be heard - in other words, they get to grind an axe and get away with it.

And worse of all is that some regular folks here are arguing that those axes are considered part of THIS campaign, but at the same time think that strategies that help GET BUSH OUT this year shouldn't be part of THIS forum???

How do you suggest they NOT GET AWAY WITH IT? I saw your suggestion of a banned poster brawl pit. Can't have one without banned posters....

Look at the topics in this forum, virtually every one is some analysis of the Kerry campaign, some of it is positive, some of it is negative. Notice too that the title of this forum is "General Discussion: Campaign 2004" not "Kerry Campaign 2004" or even "Get Bush Out" although that is the general reason for ALL the forums here. This forum is for discussing all facets of the Democratic campaign, both positive and negative, no matter how much it irks you.

[AmyStrange]

40. No I didn't...

is this the only forum on this board?

I said threads that bash people should be moved to the "Politics and Campaigns" forum. How is THAT banishing people?

d
(EDITED in to on and post to threads)

[AmyStrange]

47. What irks me...

is that the bashing threads force out the useful threads. If you moved those threads to the "PandC" forum, this forum would slow down enough so organizing campaigns and thoughtful discussions could be developed.

And yes this is ultimately a GET BUSH OUT forum AND board, no matter how much this may irk YOU. It's WHY it was started,

d

[JNelson6563]

51. Waht irks me is

with all the time yoiu spent whining on this thread about htis forum not meeting your specifications is you coulda registerd 10 voters.

It's a DB, not real life. Ugh!

Julie

[AmyStrange]

53. At 10pm at night?

what are you talking about?

d

[JNelson6563]

56. It was an example of better use of your time

At ten o'clock at night I'd be more likely to be printing the Voter Reg apps for another time, likely some letters for my party business etc.

The point bein gyour whining here is a waste of time, as counter-productive as what you are criticising. As will be the posts you write making excuses and/or arguing the point, thsu proving it.

Julie

[AmyStrange]

57. You could say that about 99% of the post in the DU...

why pick on my thread specifically?

I'm not whining so much as trying to get more strategic and organizational discussions posted here in THIS forum and less bashing of people who aren't specifically ABB just yet - which WON'T help GET BUSH OUT. Isn't THAT what you WANT also?

And don't forget, you are proving your own point also,

((((HUGz)))) for your kind and thought provoking analysis,

d

[AmyStrange]

48. And most of the positive post that move fast...

if you read them rather than just look at the titles... you'd see the reason most of them move fast is because of the merciless bashing of either or both candidates and their supporters within that thread.

And if you look around even more, you'll see some meetup and organizing post. Are you saying that we should help keep the bashing threads (that don't help dems change the white house and congress) going, rather than advocate for more organizational and strategic discussions that frown on name calling and strive for the healthy discussion that helps (rather than curtails) putting more dems in the US government for THIS CAMPAIGN which will help GET BUSH OUT and GET KERRY IN.

Not for ALL "politics and campaigns" (forum), but for THIS specific campaign (season) 2004 (forum).

((((HUGz)))) for helping the discussion along,

d

[mikehiggins]

59. When did THAT happen?

I wasn't aware that gd:c04 was for "specific" anything, except the 2004 campaign. And thinking Kerry is something of a dead fish is not exactly being "anti-liberal".

People can be anti-Bush without being particularly pro-Kerry for a whole world of reasons, starting with Skull and Bones and their shared Yale heritage up to NAFTA and the vote on the IWR.

Maybe I misunderstood your complaint but I don't think there is much to be gained by trying to get everyone on DU to march to order now that we have something of a "party line" to follow. Kerry has no claim to being a messiah of the Left. About the best that can be said about him is that he isn't George Bush. Claiming he is the best the Democrats can or could do requires a "willing suspension of disbeleif" far beyond that needed to think Star Treks space ships can travel a multi-light speeds.

Kerry is what we have been saddled with and it is only hope, at this point, that keeps many of us from drowning our dispair in huge amounts of alcohol. That's not "anti-liberal", that's just political realism.

But thank you. Its been weeks since I felt insprired to rant over the primary results. It feels real good. Liberating almost. Cool.

[AmyStrange]

62. I'm not exactly happy with Kerry either. Dean was my first choice...

but GETTING BUSH OUT is job one and bashing people who are not 100% ABB is a waste of time and won't help get Kerry elected - which was one of the points of this thread.

Thanx for adding your thoughts though (and your rant of course)

d

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. To some degree you are correct

But posts that inform about Kerry and counter the things being said that try to paint him into a corner DO help to get him elected.

Countering myths is very important as all the AL GORE rumors taught us. That is not to say that there are not other effective actions to take and you are filling a void by doing that now.

Hugs

[AmyStrange]

33. I'm not against those post at all...

but how does bashing people help Kerry?

I'm not talking about bashing Kerry personally or Bush, but bashing folks who post here in the forum. How does that HELP Kerry?

d

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Generalizing never helps

but recognizing who is a teamplayer and who isn't can be useful...as long as it isn't with a generalized flamefest thread

[AmyStrange]

46. true...

the flamefest threads are the ones I mean more than anything, but it seems sometimes more people are interested in the flamefest than helping to get Kerry elected,

d

[mouse7]

49. No Burger King logos here. You don't get everything your way.

If you want a political message board designed exactly the way you want it, feel free to start your own message board.

Otherwise, deal with what the donations of others is supplying to you.

[AmyStrange]

54. ?????????

how does this further the discussion?

d

[Trajan]

55. It DOESNT end the discussion ..

It REFUTES it ...

Please: .. go on and on about how displeased you are about what we do or dont do ... No one is stopping you, obviously ....

Isnt freedom wonderful ? ...

[AmyStrange]

58. hahahahahaha

like I'm the ONLY one posting on this thread.

But, I still appreciate your most insightful response.

d

[mouse7]

60. Amy, you hven't donated a dime to DU

You have no justification for your position to complain like this. You just want to tell the people who are financially supporting DU what to do with their money for you.

I haven't either. However, I'm not starting huge public threads telling people all the people who do what they must for me.

You're doing nothing to support DU. Keep quiet and be happy someone else is willing to pay your share and allow you participate for free. Or start your own website and run it anyway you like.

[AmyStrange]

61. Actually I have...

and also much time on my DU "unofficial" Slang Dictionary:

http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/

I was sending money every payday to the DU for me and someone else for over six months last year, but had to stop because money was getting tight, but I plan on starting up real soon again.

Thanx for bringing this to everyone's attention,

d

[rasputin1952]

63. I don't think that a star has anything to do with whether a person...

can say much on this board. You can add to that, that there a few who request that a star not be placed by their names for various reasons.
One more thing, there are quite a few that have sponsors as far as donations go. Many of those at this site are hard tapped for money these days, and can use whatever help they can get.

I am not trying to be partisan here in any way, but the whole notion of democracy is to allow people to have their opinions, and I find it exceptionally graceful of the administrators not to define people by their ability to donate, or the # of posts they have. Everyone is new at one time or another, just as most people are broke one time or another.

O8)

[mouse7]

66. I think that's true, at same time, there is a "biting the hand" issue

I think it's related to the tone to me personally. It seems to me like those who aren't contributing should take a more "suggestion-oriented" tone. There's a point that is reached after a while that those not kicking in should be less condemning. A statement like Amystrange made that "I don't really see a whole lot of constructive post here" is pretty strident and demanding.

Amystrange is pretty much demanding a redesign of the whole site. That's a lot of work to demand from other people, especially when you aren't helping the cause.

If someone really doesn't like the forum that much, why stick around?

[AmyStrange]

67. Because I like the people here mostly...

and I mostly suggested in this thread that people spend more time helping to GET BUSH OUT and less time bashing folks whom are not exactly 100% ABB, because bashing won't help GET BUSH OUT.

What "exactly" is wrong with that anyway?

d

[mouse7]

69. No... you "mostly" demanded the whole site be redesigned

Are you planning to fly cross country and help code all the format changes you are demanding?

I thought not.

What you did was demand a hell of a lot of work and claim the site was mostly worthless if people didn't follow your orders.

You see all that site traffic here? Yes, you like all that site traffic. It isn't here because the whole site is wrong.

[AmyStrange]

74. Nope... wrong again...

yes I did suggest a separate forum for mud fights with banned individuals, but most people see this as too much work and a potential for trouble and I can see their point.

THIS thread was NOT about that nor did I ever suggest THIS forum be reworked. You are talking about ALL of DU, but I AM NOT. I am only talking about THIS forum and THAT is what you are WRONG ABOUT - BESIDES your claim that I have NEVER donated to the DU, which you were WRONG about to begin with.

I only suggested that more folks discuss organization and strategies and less about bashing people. Again what is wrong with that?

Thank you for your effortless tirade about what you see as right. I do appreciate that (honestly I do),

d

[rasputin1952]

71. Please understand...

my post had nothing to do with you.

I find it in bad taste for the donation star to be brought up; just as I think post counts are a poor way to judge an individual. I posted that so that others might also read it and perhaps take note.

In no way, was I singling you out, with the exception that you brought the point up.

I wrote that as a member of DU, not as a moderator, I appologize for not making that statement, I usually do in situations like this.

O8)

[dpbrown]

64. There are separate forums for activism and politics

This forum is for discussion.

Perhaps you should propose a "Get Kerry Elected" activism forum or something like that.

[AmyStrange]

68. Because...

this forum is already about the campaign in 2004 and GETTING BUSH OUT is the major reason this forum is here. Remember, campaign is both a verb and a noun. Discussions about organization and strategies for THIS campaign are the verbal aspects of this forum.

It seems folks here are more interested in bashing folks whom are not exactly 100% ABB and that is not constructive. I take issue with that and thought I would point it out, but it seems from almost all the post here in this thread that bashing is more fun and more important than helping GET BUSH OUT.

Just my opinion, but thanx for your suggestion. Yours was probably the most constructive post in this thread so far.

d

[rasputin1952]

73. The mission is to get bush out of office...

I have put in many a hard hour trying to get people together to do just that. I agree that you are trying to get bush out of OUR WH, and do not agree that you are demanding changes in this forum. You are attempting to bring people together, and this is a noble thing.

There will always be some who will declare that, "Every Silver Lining has a Cloud". There is still a long way before the election, and much work must be done to bring all of our forces together.

The main thing is, Kerry, or anyone else, can not be all things for all people. There will always be disagreements and unhappy people. Those people will find themselves more detrimental to getting bush out, than they will ever know.

I wish people could readily come together, but we are a diverse party; and respecting those with differing views is part of the territory. I would like to think that who look for division will come around, but I will not hold my breath for too long.

O8)

[AmyStrange]

75. Thank you...

for atleast trying to understand where I am coming from. It is DEEPLY appreciated,

d