If Kerry wins, it will be thanks to us anti-war lefties

[genius]

We were the ones who brought the atrocities of the Bush administration to the attention of the public. It was we who showed the public that there were significant numbers of people opposed to Bush. We're the reason that people like Clarke are finally having the courage to speak up. Without us, everyone would be talking about how Bush is a great war president and how Kerry doesn't have a chance.

A little gratitude instead of attacks would be nice.

[sangh0]

1. Keep telling that to yourself and anyone who will listen

but I will continue to think that people like Richard Clarke, John Kerry, etc had plenty of courage years before you ever learned to boot up your computer.

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. John Kerry hasn't shown courage ONCE since 12/12/2000

Hopefully that will change in the near future or we are all fucked.

[Sparkly]

35. Oh?

He voted against the $87 billion, used Bush's "Mission Accomplished" photo-op in his own ad early on (and raised the issue of Bush's service with "I know something about aircraft carriers for real"), usurped "bring it on," told Rolling Stone he didn't expect Bush to f-- things up and called Republican attack dogs crooked liars... That's off the top of my head.

He may not have been my first choice or yours, and we all owe much to Dean, but I hardly think it's true that Kerry "hasn't shown courage once." Last night he stood up as the new leader of the party, with the faith and expectations of everybody who was in that room, and everybody who wants Bush out, on his shoulders. This is a crucial fight with high stakes and a glaring spotlight of scrutiny, and plenty of people criticizing every move he makes, literally. That alone takes A LOT of courage, in my view.

[sangha]

40. It's the propoganda

The initial post is not an argument. It's just propoganda. Because propoganda relies on emotional impact to do it's persuading, making a reasonable argument like "Kerry isn't brave enough, and hasn't done enough to attack Bush*" is not good enough. Propoganda requires stronger statements than that in order to arouse people's emotions. That's why they most misportray everything as black and white (like Bush*). That's why it's "no courage", and not "not enough courage"

IMO, it's deceitful

[chickflick]

2. So who is attacking you?

[newyawker99]

70. Hi chickflick!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

7. Thanks for yours

[leftistagitator]

4. When we win

it will be because the entire Party came together and fought back. The anti-war left is a strong backbone of supporters who the Party owes its gratitude to, especially for taking * to task on topics the mainstream Party was afraid to touch, but no single faction of the Party is powerful enough to claim credit for the coming victories of our unified front. We all rely on each other, without the moderates liberals can't win, without liberals moderates can't win. The combined forces of the DFA and the DLC will be enough to defeat *, as long as we work together without getting too divisive.

[Scoopie]

5. Then why is it afraid to tackle national security?

Anti-war is one thing, but having the right plan for the REAL war on terror (not Bush's misdirected one) is another.
I haven't seen promise, yet.

Be assured, however, that I won't vote for Bush - ever - in fact, unlike most of you, I've had the great pleasure of voting against him three times: once in the Republican primary of 2000 where I voted for McCain, once in the General Election where I voted for Gore and again in the 2004 primary where I voted for Clark.

I will, however, reserve my final judgment on the basis of who Kerry picks as his Veep, before I make plans to write in someone. Kerry's OK and was my first (all-be-it reluctant) choice before Clark came along.

[TankLV]

38. This is true, also.

nt

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

8. Yeah

And of course the tactics of the quisling "centrists" who just wanted to get the Iraq War vote out of the way so they could talk about a prescription drug benefit was SO effective in the 2002 elections, wasn't it?

[wyldwolf]

9. your post is a sideshow with no relevance to the thread...

...but still plays into the overall circus threads "genius" has been starting.

[ibegurpard]

10. Sideshow? perhaps.

Irrelevant to the thread? waaaay off the mark.

[genius]

11. ibegurpard is correct unlike someone who's being insulting and obnoxious

He's also relevant to the topic. I wonder what the real purpose is of the people here who go around insulting the activists for daring to point out the value of what we've done for the party.

[wyldwolf]

14. Response to #10 and #11

The title of the thread is "If Kerry wins, it will be thanks to us anti-war lefties."

It continues:

We were the ones who brought the atrocities of the Bush administration to the attention of the public.
It was we who showed the public that there were significant numbers of people opposed to Bush. We're the reason that people like Clarke are finally having the courage to speak up. Without us, everyone would be talking about how Bush is a great war president and how Kerry doesn't have a chance.

A little gratitude instead of attacks would be nice.

Not only does he NOT provide one example or ounce of evidence (not surprising) but assuming that the democrats wanted to get the Iraq vote out of the way to focus on healthcare - and that is the reason for the losses in 2002 - is completely off topic, completely false, and irrelevant as to whether "anti-war lefties" will be responsible for a Kerry win.

[Kanary]

50. We activists are insulted

because it's no longer "cool" or even OK to be anti-war.

Once Kerry's nomination was assured, with his clear view that the war will continue, it did more to shut up the anti-war efforts than most of the bleating from the right.

It took me a while to realize this was why the protests on March 20 this year were smaller than last year, and why there were NO Kerry people in evidence.

Scary business.

Kanary

[diamondsoul]

53. OT- HEY! Are you not checking your PMs

or just not speaking to me anymore??:(

On the topic- "Once Kerry's nomination was assured, with his clear view that the war will continue, it did more to shut up the anti-war efforts than most of the bleating from the right."

That just blows my mind! If anything it should have made it even stronger, imo, but then maybe us sane folk are becoming a minority.

[Kanary]

56. "Maybe us sane folk are becoming a minority"

Didn't you get the memo? Just be quiet, support Kerry and send him $$$.

Don't think any other thoughts except... getting "behind" Kerry.

I've seen enough behinds, thankyouverymuch, and Kerry's is no different.

Kanary

[diamondsoul]

65. ROTFL

yeah....and besides, Dennis' is much cuter!:evilgrin: :hug:

[Kanary]

68. Thanks for the reminder -- I'll have to check that out on Saturday..

"Hey Dennis, could you pleeeeez turn around for just a brief (hehehe) second?"

Geeeeeez, Kanary.... :)

Say g'night, Gracie...

Kanary, who has to wash her mind out with soap......

[AntiCoup2K4]

15. How is it a sideshow and a circus to state an obvious fact?

...Mainly that it's us lefties who have been the only ones with a spine in this goddamn party for the last three years while the goddamn DLC was doing to Junior what Monica did to Bill.

[wyldwolf]

16. again

Not only does he NOT provide one example or ounce of evidence (not surprising) but assuming that the democrats wanted to get the Iraq vote out of the way to focus on healthcare - and that is the reason for the losses in 2002 - is completely off topic, completely false, and irrelevant as to whether "anti-war lefties" will be responsible for a Kerry win.

[genius]

19. How about the IWPR? How about USA-Patriot? How about Homeland Security?

We were the ones marching in the streets and we were the ones who brought out the fact that Bush was a bad guy. The news media didn't do it. Neither did the Democrats who were too afraid to speak against Bush except behind closed doors in Democratic forums. We are the ones who gave the cowards in the Democratic Party the courage to stand up to Bush. We are the reason America is questioning Bush. I'm planning to vote for Kerry but he wouldn't be where he is today if he had not listened to US. By the way, I've been a Democrat all my life and it's the lefties who are the ones who are standing up for the real Democratic values - not those who are calling themselves Democrats while selling us out to the Republicans. Real Democrats know that.

[wyldwolf]

22. Before all that, there were people discussing it in the media...

..and online.

All this whiney "real democrat" rhetoric is getting so tired.

So, show us examples of how "the (far)lefties who are the ones who are standing up for the real Democratic values."

[genius]

25. You're standing up for the news media?

They are Bush's biggest backers. One of the few exceptions is Greg Palast and he knows he can't get the truth printed in the American media.

[wyldwolf]

28. Yes

Unless all the press that was given about Bush's prior 9/11 knowledge, the missing WMDs, and latest coverage of Richard Clarke somehow hurts our cause.

But I expect reps from the finges of the spectrum (far left and far right) to whine about the evil unfair biased media.

And why do you keep ignoring my calls for some sources of proof for the things you claim?

[TankLV]

39. Precisely.

Can't refute the truth.

Some people choose to "remember" it with their own glasses.

[mzmolly]

17. Now wouldn't Clark fall into the category that genius refers to?

He spoke out against the war also...

[genius]

21. Yep.

That's who it's so stupid to ostracize the left. There are a lot of us.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr Fate]

12. I'm an anti-war Leftie who supports Democrats across the board...

And I take credit for all of these things too. I helped organize protests in my small GA community...

But now my strategy has shifted to getting people to the polls in November.

The strategy does not include constant attacks & smears on Kerry...

I am for DEM unity- I am ready whenever the people who still go after Kerry for every little thing are ready...

[genius]

24. The left isn't attacking Kerry.

However some people who claim to support Kerry and who are less liberal than Kerry are attacking the left.

[Dr Fate]

27. I could care less WHO is attacking Kerry...

Be it the GOP, media or anyone else who plans on tearing down what I have worked for...

If they choose to attack Democrats/Kerry, then I will oppose their efforts...

[wyldwolf]

29. post after post, YOU either attack moderates or whine...

..about mysterious attacks on the far left by moderates.

[mzmolly]

18. I think you can say that about the *anti-war lefties* who vote for Kerry.

Other anti war lefties don't deserve thanks, for something they don't desire, right? I protested the war and will vote for Kerry. But, I don't feel I should be thanked as I am doing so for selfish and ideological reasons.

Dean and others however, do deserve our collective thanks! :)

[blondeatlast]

20. You definitely have a point. Thank you (even if I am included in the group

[MercutioATC]

23. Like gratitude for Dean's contributions instead of attacks?

You, of all people, have no business complaining about attacks. Your attacks on Dean ,somebody who has turned out to be instrumental in this race (do you see Edwards' or Clark's face on Kerry's internet fundraising graphic?) were particularly nasty and demeaning.

I agree with your premise, but you're certainly not the person to be making the argument.

[dolstein]

30. Actually, it will be thanks to the people who vote for him

NT

[dogman]

31. Finally someone gives Wes Clark his due!

I thought only Clark supporters realized this.

[wyldwolf]

32. think he is referring to Richard Clarke... and I doubt...

...he would give Wes Clark any credit. Wes Clark is one of those "bush-lite" folks he loves to complain about.

[dogman]

33. Ha-ha

Ya think?

[genius]

44. Get your attacks straight and stop falsely stating people's positions

It looks as if you are referring to me as I posted the original message. I have never said anything aginst Wes Clark. In fact, I have also been pretty positive on the subject of most of the Democratic nominees.

As for the left, those of us who expressed our opposition to the war are the left and there are millions of us here in the United States. We were strong enough that we even convinced the centrists of our position. So don't belittle us and don't pull the same number as the news media and claim that our numbers are smaller than they are.

The thing that helped Kerry was that we knew he was a liberal at heart and we saw how good he could look with a little coaxing from Kucinich and Sharpton. Dean showed that it was okay to stand up and attack the center. It wasn't his attacks that cost him the nomination, it was a combination of his record (which did not seem as liberal as his words) and the fact that an attack on Bush's Iraq war policy will probably carry more weight in November if it comes from a war hero. Kerry needs to keep listening to his liberal supporters rather than letting the conservatives (some of whom are unfortunately working on his campaign) drag him back to where he was at the time of the IWPR vote. It's important that the conservatives and centrists don't get away with trying to convince people that they got Kerry the nomination because they did NOT. We did.

[Zhade]

34. "A little gratitude instead of attacks would be nice."

Keep dreaming. Some of Kerry's supporters don't give a fuck about those of us who rightly criticize their Chosen One.

Come to think of it, I don't think KERRY gives a fuck about us, either!

[TreasonousBastard]

36. Still licking your wounds?

What's the point of this sort of thing?

Kerry won. others lost, and there were a lot more people than self-described "anti-war lefties" involved.

I'm not all that sure just what that means anyway. I'm anti-war, and I'm pretty much a leftie, Socialist even, but somehow I suspect I don't have all that much in common with your crowd.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Anti-war sentiment was not the exclusive province of the 'lefties'

I'm very much center-left, overall, but I opposed the war; I also know MANY Democrats to the right of me who also opposed the war. The 'lefties' should get no more credit for their opposition than anyone else.

[TankLV]

37. Ya got that right!

There were even some here on this thread that were bemoaning us and Dean for daring to be so "controversial" and "critical" and "blatant" - said "we'd turn off voters" in the mushy middle or some other such crap - and they are - in this thread - still trying to claim otherwise.

[sangha]

41. Dean did lose the mushy middle by being too critical

Booth he and Gephardt sealed their doom by running a multitude of attacks ads against each other. They both went down, and Kerry and Edwards benefitted from their more positive campaigning.

[TankLV]

47. You do have a point.

The people decided to go with someone other than the Dr. I was one of them. Glad I didn't make up my mind till the last instant. His "I have a scream" spectacle really turned me off - I felt very uncomfortable for him watching it - like a drunk making a fool of himself when you know otherwise they're a decent person.

But the main point is that the Dr. was the one who made it acceptable to not only disagree with but to dislike bunkerboy publicly. He was not the first, but he had the most influence on the eventual discourse.

Glad all the former candidates are now in the "big tent" and working to defeat the usurper who stole OUR White House.

[Hav]

43. .

Here is your crown, Napoleon.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

46. Kerry was arrested protesting the Vietnam war.

I knew someone who tried not to serve in Vietnam. They came across the country to arrest him and then he spent a month in the brig before being shipped over there.

We, on the left, are the activists. He's not going to win without us.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WI_DEM]

49. Absolutely!!

Thanks for stating it. The Anti-war people were out in front while some politicians were afraid to stand up to Bush because of his immense "popularity".

[dolstein]

51. No, it will be thanks to mounting US casualties

The fact is, mounting casualties and lack of progress in Iraq are what's likely to cost Bush support at home, not the screeching outrage of the anti-war left.

It was the same thing in Vietnam. The war protestors didn't end that war. What ended the war was the military reality that, short of going nuclear, the U.S. couldn't win.

[WI_DEM]

52. to say that the anti-war movement had little to do with

ending the Vietnam War is revisionist history--even Henry Kissinger has acknowledged that the anti-war movement was pivotal in raising the consciousness of the country and escalating a debate on why we were in Vietnam. Of course the mounting casualties had a major effect as well but the anti-war movement sowed the seeds and was as influential as the civil rights movement was in bringing about necessary change in US policy.

[sangh0]

54. Do you have an argument, or is making it up a hobby for you?

to say that the anti-war movement had little to do with ending the Vietnam War is revisionist history

ONE BIG PROBLEM

He didn't say that the anti-war movement had little to do with it. He said they didn't end the war.

[WI_DEM]

61. ok, Sangho

They didn't end the war but they had a great deal to do with the war ending and mobilizing American political opinion which did indeed lead to the end of a politically unpopular war.

Your comments all along this thread are often very personal "or is making it up a hobby for you". I would suggest trying to debate a person without making it a grudge match--in the long run you may win more points.

[dolstein]

55. I think the anti-war movement ended the draft and LBJ's presidency

But it certainly didn't end the Vietnam War. The Vietnam war stretched into Nixon's second term. McGovern campaigned on a platform of ending the war in 1972 and he lost badly.

[sangh0]

57. And polls at the time found a majority supported the VietNam War

they just didn't support HOW it was being fought. They preferred that we "fight to win"....IOW they wanted to escalate, not pull out.

[WI_DEM]

63. I respect the civility of your debate

but I also think that the anti-war movement also contributed to turning public opinion against the war and while it is true the war stretched into Nixon's administration--he was elected in '68 with a "secret plan" to end the war and did infact, begin de-escalating American participation in the war and bringing troops home.

[Nederland]

58. Does that go both ways?

i.e., if Kerry loses, can we blame you?

Just wondering...

[Kanary]

59. You already have.

Over and over and over and over and over and over.............

Notice yet how well it's strenghtened the party??

Kanary

[Nederland]

60. That would be difficult

not to mention impossible, seeing that the election hasn't happened yet.

[Kanary]

62. I repeat, you already have

In many, many..... hell, COUNTLESS threads

Along with threats, too.

Yeah, I'm really noticing all the strenghtening it has accomplished.

Kanary

[Nederland]

66. I repeat--its impossible

Its impossible to blame Kerry losing the election on anti-war lefties until we actually have an election and Kerry actually loses.

[CabalBuster]

64. ...but ain't voting for Kerry n/t

[Piperay]

67. I think it will be thanks

to a tanking economy but if it due to anti-war lefties...THANKS! :-)

[Lexingtonian]

69. LOL!!!

That's a pretty funny one!

You know, I'm collecting material for a political joke book. Can I take this one?

Thanks!

[no name no slogan]

71. Don't look here.

The joke is over here.

[WillyT]

72. That's Right, Baby !!!

So don't go pissin me off!!!

LOL!!!

:hi::evilgrin::hi: