Today, I refused to sign a petition to put Ralph Nader on the ballot

[bluestateguy]

Some shaggy looking woman, who looked like it had been awhile since she had a shower was gathering signatures, and asked me to sign. I refused, and I look forward to doing it over and over again.

[seg4527]

1. way to keep the democratic process alive and healthy ;-)

eom

[KC21304]

4. I know I feel a lot healthier because Nader ran in 2000.

Fool me once etc.

[Renew Deal]

28. Actually, part of the democratic process is

having the right not to sign the petition.

[Gman]

120. Refusing to sign IS the democratic process

and Nader struck out!

[billybob537]

2. Good

He's not here to help. I think the Bushstappo put him up to it.

[Rowdyboy]

3. Thank you

I urge everyone interested in dethroning Shrub Bush to do the same. I certainly intend to.

[ulysses]

5. complete with the usual stereotypes!

Nice job!

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Yeah, we all know what third party and indy types

are like. :eyes:

[ulysses]

9. it's just so much easier to demonize

what you can characterize as "stinky".

Frankly, I very much doubt that the poster had any such encounter today, no matter the grooming characteristics of the supposed petitioner.

[mdmc]

No need for them, right!

Onword Democratic soldiers.

[mdmc]

64. No need for them, right!

Onword Democratic soldiers.

[kodi]

35. yeap, so truly easy to demonize those with whom one disagrees

.

[IndianaGreen]

36. As long as you have the politically correct avatar

you can nearly say whatever you want. This is a spin off of the political label. As long as a politician had a "D" after his name, he would be beyond reproach. Remember how many of us were berated for daring to criticize Zell Miller in 2002?

[ulysses]

40. can I assume that this is sarcasm?

:) If so, please show me where I've made a generalization about an entire political group at anything like the base level of the "leftists don't take baths" thing.

[kodi]

43. yes, it was

curmugdeons are like that, doncha' ya' see?

the problems i have with a few of my fellow travelers who lean left are not of a personal grooming nature.


my marxist doctrine comes from a careful analysis of the works of this guy.

[flpoljunkie]

6. And in which state did this occur, blue state guy, if you don't mind my

asking?

[flpoljunkie]

42. Checked your profile and see that you hail from Texas, bluestateguy.

Nader is trying hard in Texas. I wonder what kind of reception he is receiving; I hope many like yours.

[Guaranteed]

126. I'd have to say that Kerry doesn't have much chance of winning Texas.

Even if video was released showing Bush molesting small children, Texans would still vote for him.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestateguy]

11. Ahem

For example in this thread you refer to the woman collecting signatures for the ballot petition as:

shaggy looking woman, who looked like it had been awhile since she had a shower

I'm the one who saw her, not you. That was my judgment. Trust me, I see plenty of men who look that way too, and I have said that here. I fail to see how my description of this woman, which made no reference to anything having to do with her being woman, is "sexist".

On another thread, about Dr. Lenora Fulani's alleged (and unproven) anti-Semitism, you referred to her by the B-word. Your post was appropriately deleted by the mods for its sexism.

Whether its Ann Coulter, Dr. Laura or Lenora Fulani, or a host of white male conservative facists I will pull no punches in my denunciations of bigoted, mean-spirited people such as them. If you want to debate whether or not Fulani is anti-Semitic, fine.

I am troubled by the language you use when it involves women. I don't know if this is a pattern, or if I just happened to stumble on the only two posts of yours in which this has happened.

I promise you this, if you look at my almost 6000 posts you will find far more frequent and harsh denunciations of white male conservatives than of any female.

We must all be on guard against misogynism and sexism, which is all too often found (and sometimes encouraged) in our popular culture.

When it comes to the policies of our government, I couldn't agree more. That's why I oppose Ralph Nader and his doomed efforts to win the presidency and siphon off votes from the popularly chosen nominee of the Democratic party. John Kerry will protect a woman's right to choose, enforce sex discrimination laws, support equality for gays and lesbians and make gender equality a priority of his Administration. George W. Bush will do none of those things.

[jumptheshadow]

33. Hurrah

>>That's why I oppose Ralph Nader and his doomed efforts to win the presidency and siphon off votes from the popularly chosen nominee of the Democratic party. John Kerry will protect a woman's right to choose, enforce sex discrimination laws, support equality for gays and lesbians and make gender equality a priority of his Administration. George W. Bush will do none of those things.<<

Bravo. As a lesbian who has supported gay organizations for decades, I equate third party gays with the Log Cabin Republicans. They both have a passion for self-destruction and munchkin intellects.

[WitchWay]

91. There's no hurrah there...

Don't be so enocouraging of this poster. If you read carefully (see below), he avoided answering to this last bit. He weasles out of it by saying that he is supporting government policies. Personaly, I find it rather condescending and misogynistic for him to assume that he knows what's best for women in general.

We must all be on guard against misogynism and sexism, which is all too often found (and sometimes encouraged) in our popular culture.

When it comes to the policies of our government, I couldn't agree more. That's why I oppose Ralph Nader and his doomed efforts to win the presidency and siphon off votes from the popularly chosen nominee of the Democratic party. John Kerry will protect a woman's right to choose, enforce sex discrimination laws, support equality for gays and lesbians and make gender equality a priority of his Administration. George W. Bush will do none of those things.

[mouse7]

12. Don't see you on threads calling woman using "bastard" man-haters

Lots of women using curse words to describe male opponents with four letter words. I don't see you racing to call them man-hating. I don't see men here racing to call them man-hating.

You know what. I think they used the language they used because they are involved with a political opponent/rival they don't care for. Nothing more.

I think there's a few women on this site that need to quit calling political allies "sexist" and "misogynist" at the drop of a hat. It's getting old.

[Zynx]

10. God bless you. You did a great thing.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

15. Nader's not even a Democrat in name

or anything else. He is opposing the Democratic candidate, which has the effect of supporting Bush.

I'd rather be a realist.

[bluestateguy]

17. How did you guess? You got me.

Yes I am a DINO. A reading of my past posts will show that I supported Joe Lieberman, suppoted the war in Iraq and that I always refer to the Oval Office occupant as "President Bush".

:eyes: :eyes:

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. That's great but I take issue with part of your post....

"who looked like it had been awhile since she had a shower". How many times have we as Democrats been accused of being filthy and looking like we needed to bathe? This is standard practice among the Right wing. I think they got it from Rush. I agree, down with Nader...but let's not fall into Limbaugh-like generalizations. :hi:

[mouse7]

18. There's some "beyond-the-pale" non-grooming in anarchist movement

There is the "missed-a-shower-look-rumpled" thing, and then there is the "I refuse to ever groom because non-grooming fights the man somehow" anarchist look. These people don't "miss" a shower. They don't take them. Intentionally. Their hair is not uncombed, but matted-up so badly it would literally have to all be shaved off. We won't go into the smell here. I've seen these people. I've seen these people gather for meetings. It's not accidental. They are all doing it. Intentionally.

God help all you kids if this is the next "in-look" that Seattle is going to impose on the rest of the country.

[corporatewhore]

25. where have i seen posts decribing dirty stinky leftists/activists?

oh yeah thats right Freeperville!!!!!!!

[G_j]

26. the Archie Bunker fan club?

:shrug:

[mouse7]

29. Fine, you share a closed meeting room for 3 hours with anarchists

I was in nursing school program until my messed up neck forced me out. I had no problems taking care of ALL of the needs of my patients in hospitals and nursing homes, with all that entails.

In my younger days, I went through the CS chamber in basic training, and more recently have been gassed at protests. I dealt with all that fine.

I had a problem with the how gross the anarchists were. It was worse. It was disgusting. I'll never go to an event in a closed room they will be attending again.

[WitchWay]

53. GROSS, DISGUSTING?

I think WAR and IMPERIALISM are disgusting. It's disgusting how JOHN KERRY is acting tough on terror and the war, and tough on Chavez and acting JUST LIKE BUSH!

I think the Democratic Party is becoming disgusting by shutting out the peoples voice to push the corporate agenda.

I think the Democratic Party who is running a WAR TIME PRESIDENT WHO IS AN IMPERIALIST is disgusting -- cuz make no mistake -- that is ALL ABOUT death, disease, destruction, poverty.

I think JOHN KERRY is GROSS and DISGUSTING -- all his wealth, stock options, mansions made by cutting down trees, polluting and destroyting the envrionment, causing destruction. I think that their stock options are disgusing, and agribusiness is disgusting. John Kerry's excessive wealth is gross and disgusting.

ARISTOCRATIC RULE (in this day and age!) is something that I find filthy, disgusting and gross.

Its' GROSS that in this election there are two elitist aristocrats running that are BOTH selling this country out through shitty trade deals.

CORRUPT POLITICIANS and their corporate donors are disgusting.

I think its Gross and FILTHY that democrats take corrupt, filthy CORPORATE MONEY that makes them have policies that screw all of us over, and make them corporate representatives instead of human representatives.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WitchWay]

86. A chief extremist?

Wow! Extremist? Sorry you find it extremist to be anti-war and imperialist, and be disgusted at a candidate who has policies that are destructive.

I sincerely DO CARE about what happens to the American People and that is why I have a HUGE problem with unifying behind a candidate who has not opposed this War! The American People need to make demands of our politicians, not be sheepishly cowered behind unity pledges and silence.

My goodness! I'm not into letting politicians get away with war and imperialism, things like that. I don't want a country that destroys the world, that kills people, that risks our own security, even -- for the greed of a few. And this isn't happening in just the Republican party. So, sorry if you think my distate for things things is extremist.

Suddenly, now that Kerry runs as a "war-time" president type -- alot of people are shutting up about their opposition to the war. All of the sudden, the war is not a priority. Now, people who are opposed to the war have become extremists, idealist, purists, "far left", etc. What the hell is going on? It's totally ridiculous, and it speaks volumes of why I must be so critical of the direction that this party is taking.

[mouse7]

90. You're further left than Chomsky now. That qualifies as extremist.

Noam Chomsky saw the benefits of Kerry over Dumbya. If you are so far out on the fringe even that message doesn't reach you, you are too far outside the political spectrum to care about.

Your efforts are so far out they are utterly futile. Your efforts will only help get Dumbya re-elected. Expect any and all efforts to get Dumbya re-elected to be met with strenuous opposition.

[WitchWay]

98. No. You're an extremist...

Actually, I've never liked Chomsky or his analysis, and I question his authority/motives. I don't think Chomsky is on the up and up, so I find Chomsky's arguments on this matter irrelevant also. I don't consider Chomsky "the left" -- actually, I don't even think a line from left to right is a very valid way to describe people's political viewpoints. I hope anyone's political thought is more complex than that!

Well, if my efforts are futile (and I hope they are not) that means that the democratic party isn't working. Then, I will happily go where I am not derisively treated as too fringe to care about.

It's your sort of unproductive attitude of not holding candidates to democratic principles, that will cause the greatest harm to the democratic party.

[mouse7]

102. Here's the REAL damage your extremism is causing

Want reality? In Oregon, not only were low income disabled people on medicare like me stripped of prescription drug coverage, they even stripped low income people of mental health medications. 11 people living in my HUD building lost their leases within 3 months of that coverage ending because they lost the ability to function in society without their medications. 11 people in one apartment building homeless or institutionalized. THAT'S the damage that Bush is causing.

Without your extremist purity crap, that wouldn't have happened. Gore would be President now, and at least the people who have nothing would still have a little bit of a social net beneath them.

I'll be damned if you surburban extremists are going to pull that shit from your condos on us with nothing again.

[WitchWay]

107. Shutting up is what causes REAL damage

Gore would be president if he took the presidency he won. He won it, and for some reason "lost" it. Hell, maybe there was a backroom agreement that Bush would win, or maybe the Dems didn't want the war that the oil industry plotted in Iraq or the bad economic downturn.

By the way, the democratic party never lifted a finger to take care of the scrubbed voter list. I blame Gore and the Democrats. And what about 2002? Nader wasn't around and the Dems still lost. You need to blame the Democrats for these problems, because it's the fault of the DNC. Without criticism, no one is held accounatable for bad strategy and losing elections.

Hell, I was homeless a couple years back. I haven't had any health insurance in ages. I grew up with a poor single mother who was schizophrenic, and life is just fucking hard and miserable for the mentally ill and their families in this society no matter which fucking administration is in office.

Without demanding action from our officials, and sticking to that without backing down -- NOTHING CHANGES and things get worse. So, no, I think shutting up and unifying again and again and again (as the party slips rightwards) is terrible strategy to effect political change.

[mouse7]

110. Doing what neo-cons want is what causes real damage.

Neo-cons want the left splintered and screaming at each other. Progressives know a united party is strong and will advance progressive causes.

You are following the neo-con marching orders. They are very happy to have you doing EXACTLY what your are doing.

[ulysses]

112. "Doing what neo-cons want is what causes real damage."

Truly said.

[WitchWay]

116. Letting the Democrats BECOME NeoCons causes the real damage

Yeah - I'm sure NeoCons are happy with "progressive internationalism" too - cuz it's the same old imperialism in a brand new democratic disguise.

By the way, did you know that NeoCons started out as liberals, but who wanted "tough" foreign Policy...basically socially liberal hawks -- doesn't that sound familiar? Alot like how Kerry and the Democrats sound now. So, you are arguing to unite behind the Democratic Candidate when the whole party is endanger of basically BECOMING NeoCons, themselves?

I'm sure these NeoCons are happy that everyone is banding behind a candidate who is not pulling us out of Iraq, and who supports free-trade and "progressive internationalism".

Getting beyond dualistic thinking, the Dem party isn't all what its' cracked up to be. Pressure from the electorate is the only way to change the party to address people and not corporate concerns.

This Unity or the Evil Bush will Win -- is the way the Corporatists who control the party get away with more and more.

[mouse7]

118. LOL! Yeah... there's tons of socially liberal neo-cons

Ashcroft, Falwell, Delay...

It's so hard to avoid confusing Rick Santorum and Barney Frank, too. We've gotta get those guys to wear nametags to help us out, huh?

[WitchWay]

133. YEP

Unbelievable...but those neocons that you are railing against were once (EGADS) socially liberal HAWKS. As I said, does it sound familiar?

[The Magistrate]

103. Nonesense, Ma'am

You seem to feel the diagnostic of whether the Democratic Party is working or not is whether or not it agrees with you, so that if it does not, it is not working.

Many others have a different view, and feel whether it is working or not depends on other considerations. Some might even venture to feel that if you are in disagreement, the Party is working well. That would be a prevailing view among persons interested in winning elections, for example.

"We would have had Socialism long since, if not for the Socialists."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[GreenArrow]

142. Extremist?

You're sane and rational. You're awake. You're aware and sentient. You are in the minority.

[mountainvue]

139. And you're voting for whom?

[WitchWay]

141. Who I'm Voting for

Right now, I'm supporting Kucinich. I'll decide my November vote later, because Kerry is only a presumed nominee right now, not an acutal one. there's a convention. Kerry will have time to make commitments and to try to make some positive changes in his platform. So, we'll see.

I'd almost given up until I realized there is a window of opportunity (the convention) when Kerry can become a better candidate. So, to be fair I'm waiting to see what happens.

If Kerry gets the nomination, but won't oppose the war, patriot act, and offers some compromise on his platform to be more in line with where this party ought to be -- It's time to go to Nader.

I'm not making commitments to a party that uses Bush Scare Tactics in order to avoid making commitments to the people. No, thank you!

[bluestateguy]

143. Karl Rove sends his gratitute

All the white male conservatives are hoping you vote for Nader too.

[mouse7]

34. Anarchists are not leftists or progressives.

They are only interested in tearing down as much of society as they possibly can.

There's a special breed of anarchists running around here that most of those special ones I just mentioned fit into that want to eliminate all technology and return humanity to being hunter-gatherers.

Yeah, they are real fun to have meetings with, because they show up specifically to ensure that meeting DON'T take place in activities they are involved in because they don't believe in meetings. Yep. Meetings are "the man." Gotta tear down the man.

I'm not talking a consensue process. I'm talking "rules are against mankind's natural state... since you have to have rules to have meeting, you can't have meetings."

Big Fun.

[corporatewhore]

108. Wow such a talent for smears and stereotypes

Actually Consensus based descion making is an anarchist organizing principle. bmy experiences with the local anarchist collective in organizing actions has actually been quite positive .They give every one equal voice there is no one whose opinion matters more (unlike in certain circles i know...) They get the stuff done they runa free art school in the innercity and work with americorp on learning and practising urban sustainablility but what ever

[mouse7]

113. Wow, such a talent for not understanding actual situation

I have no problem with consensus-based decision making. I'm fine with that. I've worked in such situations plenty of times in the past, and never had any issues. More than happy to work that way in the future.

THESE anarchists had a problem with consensus based decision making. It is based on rules. All rules are unnatural contrainsts on freedom and should be eliminated. One guy was basically doing all the talking for them, and that was that as far as they were concerned. No meetings. Meetings are the man. Rules are the man.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

68. self-deleted n/t

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Killarney]

16. Good!

:)

[cryofan]

19. PPPPHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTT!!!!

Whew! That one will clear the room!

Now, where was that petition signing location? I gotta sign that petition....

[IndianaGreen]

20. You have the right to sign or not sign a ballot petition

I have been seen some people boast in the internet about their actions when they ran into another person that was gathering signatures to put a third party and/or independent candidate's name on the Presidential ballot in November. The comments range from "I refused to sign the petition" to the one I saw last week where the individual was proud of himself for having berated and harassed the person collecting the signatures.

Let's make a couple of things clear. We all have the right to sign or not sign a ballot petition. None of us have the right to prevent others from collecting signatures or from signing ballot petitions.

I have gathered signatures to put candidates on the ballot, more recently to put Dennis Kucinich's name on the Indiana May primary ballot. I take a very dim view of people that interfere in this protected activity, whether they have a "D" or an "R" after their name.

For more information:

Introduction To Federal Voting Rights Laws

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro.htm

[Auntie Bush]

21. Right...but I ran into a lot of Republicans and

even a few Democrats (Dean supporters as I live in Vermont) who wouldn't sign my Wes Clark petition. Hard to convince people they aren't voting for him. We as a nation need more education on voting in general.

:puke: Nader's on C-Span now. I'm going to bed before I get sick!

[IndianaGreen]

22. I would have signed your Wes Clark petition

as I have done many other times, not so much because I may support a candidate, but because I believe the voters should be given as many choices as possible.

It is tough to get candidates on the Indiana ballot, even Democrats (particularly challengers), compared to nearby states such as Illinois.

[WitchWay]

56. Thank You for Your Post

I agree. Nice posting an dthoughts.

I don't think that anyone collecting signatures would want someone who doesn't support it signing it, but they have every right in this democracy to do so, and just don't sign any petition that you don't want to. Period.

Besides harassment -- I have also seen people, like on this very thread -- who are advocating illegal fraud by proposing that people sign with false= signatures to disrupt the process. It is illegal to advocate this, and illegal to participate in this.

Besides that it is despicable. I think anyone who engages in this sort of illegal disruption shows that they, in fact, really don't understand or appreciate democracy.

[mouse7]

62. You're an enemy of the Democratic Party.

You called Kerry "gross and disgusting." We don't need the "thanks" or "thoughts" of people so driven to harm the Party and it's candidates.

[IndianaGreen]

73. There is a whiff of Stalinism in the air

"enemy of the party"

"enemy of the people"

Show trials

Public confessions

What can we expect from those that justify voting for the PATRIOT Act?

[mouse7]

76. I'm "Stalinist" because I want to beat Bush, huh?

Thanks. Now I know the lengths you'll go to get Dumbya re-elected.

[IndianaGreen]

81. Strawman argument

We all want Bush to be defeated.

[mouse7]

92. There's only one way that will happen. Electing Kerry.

You're claims to any other course is sheer foolishness.

If you want Bush defeated, you're going to have to stop all the extremist purity talk and support the only coalition that can defeat Dumbya, that's Kerry.

[The Magistrate]

94. Still, My Hoosier Friend

There is some difference in focus, and intensity of intent.

Some seem willing to divide the effort, claiming that defeat of the criminals of the '00 Coup is not enough, that it must be coupled with other things, and, in the pinch, may be sacrificed to the effort to achieve such things as reform of the Democratic Party, or of the electoral process. That is a profoundly destructive attitude, in my view, that if widespread would bring great benefit to the criminals of the '00 Coup. It seems to me worth strenuously opposing.

Persons who advocate for Wrecker Nader, and wish well for his efforts to secure a ballot line, cannot be said to be giving the defeat of the criminals of the '00 Coup a very high priority, for the effect of Wrecker Nader's candidacy would be the same as it was previously, namely an increase in the relative strength of the Republican vote in contrast to that for the Democratic Party. No effort for Wrecker Nader can be viewed, in any way, as an effort against the criminals of the '00 Coup. That, put bluntly, is beyond honest debate.

"One war at a time is about all we can comfortably handle."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[ulysses]

131. well, no.

No effort for Wrecker Nader can be viewed, in any way, as an effort against the criminals of the '00 Coup. That, put bluntly, is beyond honest debate.

Not all worthwhile efforts are electoral, and neither are all crimes. While I may not agree with or support Nader's run this year, the man is still saying a lot of things that need to be said, and that aren't being said within the system save for Kucinich and, to an extent, Dean. I'll take all the help I can get in beating not only Bush but his ideology.

"One war at a time is about all we can comfortably handle."

Apologies to your comfort and that of whoever said that originally, but that's a luxury that I don't think we can afford. ymmv.

[The Magistrate]

134. Well, Sir

In the present circumstance, it does seem to me that the first need is to evict the criminals of the '00 Coup from office. The greatest possible further deterioration of the situation is certain if this is not achieved; no material progress is remotely possible if it is not achieved. Wrecker Nader, by working to preserve the criminals of the '00 Coup in office, does nothing whatever to defeat their ideology, but works instead to preserve its grip on power. The fact is, my friend, Wrecker Nader is not helping you; he is the practical ally of a political force we both consider to be the worst of our enemies.

The quote, by the way, is from Old Abe, in connection with the Trent Affair early in the War of Southern Treason, when some in his cabinet urged a belligerent stance towards England in that matter. It does embody, beyond that, a sound strategic outlook: one must concentrate on multiple enemies in succession, neutralizing the most threatening first, and one must adjust objectives to the means available to attain them, for to seek an end beyond one's available means is to ensure defeat. In this case, to seek reform of the electoral system, and particularly to employ the device of proclaiming the essential identity of the two major parties in attempting this, is to seek an end beyond the available means, and to do so by attacking not the most, but the least threatening opponent. It is a course of abject bankruptcy.

"For the Snark was a Boojum, you see...."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[IndianaGreen]

136. Hello, Magistrate

Nice to see you again. I fear this thread has gone off in several different directions.

The author of this thread, bluestateguy, posted the following comment at about 10 PM tonight that I think should put to rest many of the concerns that were raised when this thread was first started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x482692#483947

[The Magistrate]

138. He Spoke There Very Well, My Friend

He is clearly a much nicer fellow than me....

[mountainvue]

140. Who didn't vote

for the Patriot Act? List please.

[IndianaGreen]

149. My candidate Dennis Kucinich voted against PATRIOT Act

and I will be voting for Dennis in the May Indiana primary.

A better question is who will repeal PATRIOT Act in its entirety, and who will bring all of the troops out of Iraq without Vietnamizing that conflict.

Who will say "NO" to Israel and the Occupation of Palestine?

[mrbill]

23. if you are a resident of texas.....................

.....and voted in either the democratic or republican primary, you would be ineligible to sign such a petition.

so in essence you saved the "shaggy" woman some time.

[RichM]

24. Ugh.

:silly:

[Jane Austin]

27. All they need is a bunch of Repubs to sign it. :(

n/t

[flpoljunkie]

46. Not in Texas, they can't...according to AP article on MSNBC website...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4312689/

The first target is Texas, where Nader needs 65,000 signatures in a 60-day period from voters who are not participating in the Democratic or Republican primaries.

“It won’t be easy,” Nader told reporters at a news conference.

As an independent candidate, Nader won’t be eligible for up to about $18.6 million in government funding for the primary season, Federal Election Commission spokesman Bob Biersack said. And his failure to capture 5 percent of the vote in 2000 — he got 2.7 percent — also prevents him from receiving taxpayer funding in the general election.

Nevertheless, Nader said he won’t back off from his latest campaign for the White House even if the major candidates are tied in polls going into Election Day, a scenario that led many friends and former supporters to urge him not to run again.

____________________

Ralph Nader is one bitter, deluded son of a bitch.

[Jane Austin]

122. That's good to know.

Thanks.

[Hippo_Tron]

144. NO it's not...

Texas isn't going blue this election. If Nader gets on the ballot there's a better chance he'll park his ass there until the election is over.

[Jane Austin]

145. I thought I meant

It was good to know that a lot of Republicans couldn't sign Nader's ballot petition in Texas.

[Piperay]

31. Good and I hope

one day someone will ask me because it will give me a good opportunity to tell them exactly what I think of repug Ralphie. :puke:

[tinanator]

37. ever sign one in the past?

just curious.

[sadiesworld]

39. Good show!

[FauxNewsBlues]

41. Perhaps I could sign one

It will say

George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, D.C.

Nader is taking money from Bush's donors. Perhaps Bush should sign Nader's petition in solidarity.

[The Magistrate]

44. An Excellent Idea, Sir

False signatures will consume the resources of these wreckers, and render less likely their success in getting this agent of reaction on a ballot....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[WitchWay]

54. Magistrate

You are advocating ILLEGAL ACTS. That is not okay or acceptable. You should be ashamed.

Don't ADVOCATE Fraud -- because that is exactly what you are doing -- advocating an ILLEGAL ACT of FRAUD.

[mouse7]

60. People who find Kerry "gross, disgusting" shouldn't give advice here

Your words, not mine.

[ulysses]

67. here's a thought

How about we maybe let the admins decide who should "give advice" here. They've gotten pretty good at it.

[mouse7]

70. Here's a better thought

10% of the big money donations Nader is getting are from those who have given big money to Dumbya and the neo-cons. Why? Becasue the Nader campaign benefits the neo-cons so much.

I'll remind people how much all this extremist purity whining helps Dumbya, and you deal with that truth.

[ulysses]

71. tough talk from the mouse!

I'll remind people how much all this extremist purity whining helps Dumbya, and you deal with that truth.

:eyes: How about you just hit "alert" where you feel necessary, Torquemada, and let the mods and admin sort it out, as they've repeatedly asked?

[IndianaGreen]

72. Perhaps you should direct mouse7 to the ACLU's page on Voting Rights

which can be found here:

http://www.aclu.org/VotingRights/VotingRightslist.cfm?c=32

[ulysses]

74. I should, but you just did.

:D

:hi:, IG!

[IndianaGreen]

75. I never ask people their party's affiliation when I register them to vote

Like me, there are many DUers that have participated in voter registration drives in the past, as we are doing this year. It wouldn't occur to any of us to ask people their party's affiliation when we register them to vote. It is also inconceivable for any of us to throw away the voting registration of those that do tell us that they intend to vote for a candidate we disapprove of.

I think that's the difference between a liberal and an authoritarian, isn't it?

Hi back to you, ulysses! :hi:

[mouse7]

79. I know you want to post anything you want free of criticism.

It doesn't work that way. You post the extremist purity rants, and expect them to be critically examined and shown for the tripe they are.

[IndianaGreen]

82. You shouldn't use ATA forum for a personal soapbox

as you did here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x15981

[mouse7]

88. it not "my soapbox" to hold you to same rules as other DUers

If you cast insults against people, you're violating DU rules.

[ulysses]

84. ROFLMAO!

Friend, I've been here for a long time and freely taken my share of criticism. :D

[mouse7]

93. Expect more.... a lot more. n/t

[ulysses]

97. I'll do that.

:D

[The Magistrate]

101. It Is Always Charming, Ma'am

To hear self-proclaimed radicals urge adherence to law; it produces the same sort of double-take that a nobleman calling for revolutionary anarchy does.

Electoral petitions are routinely signed with names ranging from Mickey Mouse to I. P. Freely, as the overly earnest are legitimate objects for amusement to their fellow citizens. The great majority of signatures on ballot petitions are ruled out of order in some way, and that is just one reason many are. You will search in vain for prosecutions resulting from the practice. Indeed, they would be impossible, for no one knows who signs, and no one is ever asked, at least in my experience, to provide identification in any form when approached by a circulator. Where prosecutions for fraud occur is where there is evidence the circulators have signed names themselves, and this can be provided by hand-writing and ink analysis, as well as sloppy work, such as copying an alphabetical list procured by organizers.

It does not bother me in the least to suggest such a mild form of sabotage, aimed at witting agents of the worst elements of reaction in our polity, which is precisely what supporters of Wrecker Nader are in the present circumstance. It would be equally legitimate to stand near the circulator, for instance, and remind people asked to sign such a paper that the only ones who will benefit by it are the criminals of the '00 Coup. Everyone has a right to speak their mind openly on such questions, after all, wherever they might happen to be. Certainly no one has a monopoly on speech at a particular street-corner, nor do persons have any right not to be argued with and opposed when they express their views.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[WitchWay]

121. so it's illegal but you think you can get away with it

and that makes it okay according to your conscience. that's pretty despicable.

your assumption that you can get away with advocating illegal conduct in a publicly accessible forum, though, is just plain irrational.

unless, since you obviously think it should be legal, you are engaging in civil disobedience. wouldn't MLK be proud if he could see you today!

[The Magistrate]

137. Conscience, Ma'am?

It has been a long time since anyone who knew me well accused me of that particular blemish. In a matter of serious conflict, what is advantageous is to be done, and what is disadvantageous is to be avoided. The degree to which this is realized is the measure of a person's seriousness.

"Revolution is not a tea party."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[bluestateguy]

124. I oppose fraud

My right to not sign is a part of the democratic process of gathering signatures from people who are at least sympathetic enough to sign a petition to putr someone on the ballot. I will not sign, never ever, to put a Green on a ballot. I will criticize those who do, that is also my right. I would hope that people don't sign, just as I hope people won't vote for Bush in November, but I will support their right to do it.

I will not support, and I will condemn, efforts to "sabatoge" as you say the signature gathering process. I will urge others not to sign, but I will also respect the rights of people to gather signatures free from violence or acts of fraud. Even the lady I spoke of in the original post.

I hope I have made myself clear.

[IndianaGreen]

132. I totally agree with you on this, and I am glad you clarified the issue

I will not support, and I will condemn, efforts to "sabatoge" as you say the signature gathering process. I will urge others not to sign, but I will also respect the rights of people to gather signatures free from violence or acts of fraud.

The issue was never the choice you made about the ballot petition, a right that is guaranteed to you under the Constitution, and that all of us should defend.

Thank you.

:grouphug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

45. I'd sign one today, if asked.

I believe that anyone who meets the Constitutional requirements for whatever office should be allowed to be on the ballot after meeting minimal, non-oppressive state requirements. We are a participatory democracy, and trying to keep someone off of the ballot simply because they're neither a Democrat nor a Republican sends a bad message, IMO.

Having signed his petition, however, I would also continue to work my butt off to defeat both Nader AND Bush.

[ulysses]

47. Good God, man! This is a Nader thread!

You trying to get your evenhanded ass killed in here?

;-)

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. LOL!

Some fellow officers have told me (in jest) that it's a tragedy that I'm even-handed, rather than a jack-booted thug. I guess that's my Achilles heel.:P

[The Magistrate]

48. Why Make Work For Yourself, Sir?

Signing such a petition, given your intention to work for the wrecker's defeat, is rather like tossing a few handfuls of sand on a dirty rug you intend to vacuum. The easiest way to work for the wrecker's defeat is to not cooperate in placing him on the ballot....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cuban_Liberal]

50. It's a matter of principle, Your Honor.

I believe in the right of any citizen to participate in our electoral process, and believe the same should be encouraged, rather than discouraged. I am also a deputy voter registrar in my county, and I will register anyone to vote, regardless of their inclination toward partisan affiliation.

:)

[The Magistrate]

52. Regarding Your Official Duties, Sir

Your attitude is commendable: you would be wrong indeed to refuse the franchise to any elegible for it, even your worst opponent.

In your private capacity, however, your attitude does not have so much to recommend it, in my view. You have, in that capacity, a perfect right to be partisan, and in this present situation, that would seem to me the most adviseable course. Commitment to principle is highly over-rated as a guide to action.

"An election differs from a civil war only as the bloodless surrender of a force outnumbered in the field differs from Waterloo."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[WitchWay]

58. Commitment to principles is Essential

Commitment to principles is essential. If more democrats were commited to principles, the party would go a long way to win over voters who are independents and republicans (unhappy with Bush), and even Greens.

Part of the failure of the Democratic party is attitudes such as you propose, that principles are over-rated as a guide to action. A party must have principles and must respect American Democracy before partisanship.

Principles are of the utmost importance. A party without principles will fall into corruption.

[mouse7]

61. You're committed to hurting the Democratic Party

You called Kerry gross and disgusting. Your words, not mine. Your words should be understood in that light.

[WitchWay]

66. Am I?

The democratic party is doing a fine job of hurting itself. Look at 2002, for an example of that. I'm hoping that will change.

I feel that criticism is important. I called Kerry gross and disgusting because he is pro free-trade and imperialism, and he voted for IWR and won't come out with an immediate exit strategy for the war. I think War is gross and disgusting. It kills people, and I also think depleted uranium is disgusting.

Maybe this will change at the convention. I hope so. Then, he might clean himself off and he won't be so dirty in this respect.

I critisize Kerry because I think that at the moment, he lacks principles. I think that if Kerry had better principles, it would serve the party well.

But, I think principles are important. That is why I hope that people will demand principles and ideals in general, and express outrage whenever there is corruption.

If everything is fine with Kerry, he should be able to weather criticism (especially from the left, don't you think?) just fine, no problem. No one should have to "hush" criticism of him, if he is a strong candidate where there is nothing to criticize. On the other hand, if there is legitimate criticism to be had, it should be expressed so that Kerry might address it and more accurately represent the party.

I don't believe that criticism "hurts" the party. Criticism and Debate helps democracy, in my opinion. The same argument of "unity" behind Kerry, is like the argument that the Republicans used about "unity" behind the war. Either way, it is closer to fascist behavior to democratic behavior.

[mouse7]

69. Every word you write helps Dumbya and the neo-cons.

Kerry IS the nominee. Every criticism you make helps the neo-cons. Every word you write make the neo-con movement stronger.

There's a reason that 10% of the big money donations Nader is getting are from people who have made big money donations to RePublicans. The tactics you are using help get neo-conservatives elected.

You couldn't be more helpful to the neo-cons if you were a Bush volunteer.

[WitchWay]

80. But who are you helping?

Who are you helping by promulgating Unity propaganda that is dangeroulsy close to fascism?

Yet...There is a convention, and there will be policy discussion there. Hopefully, the democratic party can chose a better path than the one it is on, there. I hope the democratic party doesn't keep shutting out Kucinich because of their corporate domination.

I don't want to hear tired, fearful unity propaganda used to 'shush' me. Sounds like "support our troops" or some sort of nonsense. We better unify, or else! Or else what? We might make some PROGRESS or demand real representation or make a point that we want to stop this egregious war.

If the democratic party can't let people debate, discuss and critisize -- you've got a hell of alot more worrying to do than worrying about the NeoCons. (By the way, check out Progressive Imperialism -- its the new Dem version of PNAC! If you are so worried about imperialism, take a look no further than your own party!)

Nader doesn't accept corporate contributions. Only individual contributions under $2,000. He's getting republican money because he actually really does have some republican support. I have some conservative family members who voted and will vote Nader. Nader has support from all over the political spectrum, so take a look into his demographics from the 2000 exit polls.

Where is Kerry's money coming from by the way?

[mouse7]

99. The old "if it not pure, it's facism" line?

Yes, yes, yes, we've all heard you extremists screaming that only extreme left wing putity isn't facism. It's bullshit.

Want reality? In Oregon, not only were low income disabled people on medicare like me stripped of prescription drug coverage, they even stripped low income people of mental health medication. 11 people living in my HUD building lost their leases within 3 months of that coverage ending because they went off the deep end and lost the ability to function in society. 11 people in one apartment building homeless or institutionalized. THAT'S the damage that Bush is causing.

Without your extremist purity crap, that wouldn't have happened. Gore would be President now, and at least the people who have nothing would still have a little bit of a social net beneath them.

I'll be damned if you surburban extremists are going to pull that shit from your condos on us with nothing again.

[IndianaGreen]

130. "you surburban extremists are going to pull that shit from your condos"?

I'll be damned if you surburban extremists are going to pull that shit from your condos on us with nothing again.

Speaking of broad brush generalizations, and an inaccurate characterization at that!

:puke:

[The Magistrate]

105. Part Of Your Problem, Ma'am

Is that you imagine what you feel are your principles are those of many other people. Therefore, you imagine that if the Party urged everything you urged, that it would speedily receive a tremendous increment of support. But clearly, this is not the case: if it was, political figures would be tripping over themselves to claim to be the standard bearer for your views, as doing so would be likely to propel them into office. In fact, for a political figure to speak as you do, and address issues in the manner you do, would be to accept certainty of defeat at the polls. The overwhelming preponderance of the people do not agree with you, and actively reject the views you espouse.

"I am a man of principles, Sir, and chief among them is flexibility."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[WitchWay]

57. I like your principles

I appreciate your respect of democracy and your work of registering voters from all over our political spectrum!
I think that its totally cool. The more people, regardless of affiliation, who are politically involved and active, the stronger our democracy will be. That is something that I believe.

[mouse7]

63. An endorsement from you is an insult here.

We don't need approval from those who find Kerry "gross" and "disgusting."

[WitchWay]

146. There's no need to oversimplify and twist things

In context from my original post (since you keep CONSTANTLY taking it out of context) -- I refered to how I think that Kerry is Gross and Disgusting in terms of his wealth (which when one has too much weatlh, I find it gross in disgusting). I was using this as a rhetorical response to a post that attacked anarchists as being "gross" and "disgusting" (contrasting Kerry to anarchists who most likely are involved in various forms of activism). In context, I was challenging notions of how we think of wealth as clean, wholesome, and acceptable when I believe it to be just the opposite.

Kerry can divest of his wealth in many ways, if he wishes. I hope he does, and donates at least a good portion to just causes. Until then I will find him (because of his excessive wealth and lifestyle) gross and disgusting, just as I do wealth in general.

Your shallow tricks to misrepresent, oversimplify and take out of context what I said show you are not willing or able to engage in real debate/discussion with me. And there is one more example of your sort of "discussion" that I think is unfair and disengenous:

No one has any control or power over what I say here or elsewhere on this board. So, do not twist and confuse separate issues and falsely and maliciously implicate that I intended an INSULT to another poster concerning an unrelated matter. I do not appreciate this, and I find it harassing. You are engaging in tactics of ostracism, social bullying, and belittlement. If you wish to have a discussion about something with me, do so directly and fairly. But, I will not tolerate the sort of immaturity that is apparent in your current posting.

[mouse7]

147. Twisting things? For God's sake, it not even John Kerry's money!

99% the money in that family belongs to his WIFE!

John Kerry is worth a few million. Teresa is the one with the massive fortune. John Kerry has no control, and has no business controlling his wife's money

So now John Kerry is gross and disgusting because his wife has money?

Rove loves having you on his team. Only a Rove devotee could have created such twisted logic.

[WitchWay]

148. Thank you

For bringing the discussion back to me. I appreciate that.

I realize that Teresa is the one with money, but I don't know how Kerry can separate herself from his money. My spouse and I don't think of our money as "separate". Maybe its different for the upper classes.

Wealth generally comes from:
1) environmental destruction(such as corporate agribusiness)
2) labor (often off the backs of others, often cheap labor)

I won't go into funny banking and stuff like this, for that's a complicated middle man, that doesn't change the essense of the roots of wealth.

Wealth also comes from power and using this power in ways that cause economic rewards. Power is often a form of violence (physical, emotional, psychological), in some capacity or other (whether against labor, environment, populace, foreign countries).

So, when someone is using the environment and the time/energy of others to a decadent degree (which causes others suffering and ruins the environment due to selfishness) -- I DO find that disgusting and gross. Kerry (and/or Teresa) can divest of their wealth, as I said.

Kerry could donate his excess wealth to organizations that can help to rectify some of the damage that has been created by his excess wealth. It could be donated to environmental organizations and organizations that further socio-economic justice. If he spent his excess wealth in this way, I would not call him gross or disgusting.

[RichM]

51. Hey, maybe if you beat her up, you could be a big hero on DU!!

Or maybe you could have gotten a bunch of hoodlums together, & tried to harrass her? You know, you could take her leaflets away by force, and throw them away, while she was crying. Then you could come to DU and brag about it, while all the "liberals" here would cheer for you.:eyes: :silly:

DU's Nader psychosis is 100% for fools - of which there are many here. Your assertion that the woman was "shaggy" and that she hadn't had a shower recently -- this is rightwing bullshit, even if you're not aware of it. If DU had more class and dignity, this thread would be full of indignation against the stupid thuggishness of your post.

[Forkboy]

55. Well we know how he feels about people who vote for Nader or Bush

if they die he wont care.It's the way of the New Dems!

[IndianaGreen]

65. All that bravado will disappear when the poster gets a visit from the FBI

DU Admin will also be put in legal jeopardy for implicit support of a conspiracy to thwart, restrain, or otherwise disrupt a protected activity under the Voting Rights Acts. I do believe there is a DU rule about advocating law breaking.

Remember when the Freepers went bonkers and carried a campaign to get the waitress at Chuy's fired because she called the police on the Bush twins for trying to get booze with a fake ID? That sort of harassment pales when compared to what happens when there is an organized effort and a conspiracy to violate federal election laws and people's First Amendment rights. This really gets complicated if the person collecting signatures and/or the person signing petition are members of a racial minority or have English as a second language.

I will reiterate what I said earlier on this thread: We all have the right to sign or not sign a ballot petition. None of us have the right to prevent others from collecting signatures or to keep them from signing ballot petitions.

For more information:

Introduction To Federal Voting Rights Laws

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro.htm

Frequently Asked Questions

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/misc/faq.htm

[IndianaGreen]

78. People should refrain from using bigoted, sexist, and misogynist language

The problem with this thread, which was obviously intended to be a "Atta boy" vanity post, was the poster's unfortunate use of language.

People should refrain from using sexist language that has historically been used to oppress women, that includes the "B-word" as well as language that is clearly intended to be a put down of women. e.g., ugly, smelly, "fish," or fat.

No one has called anyone on this thread bigot, sexist, and misogynist. What has happened is that the use of language that is considered to be bigoted, sexist, and misogynist was strongly challenged.

[mouse7]

83. Refrain from using bigot, sexist, misogynist insults on threads

There's rules against insulting people here at DU. Calling people sexist, misognists, bigots IS AN INSULT and against DU rules. If you have a problem with a post, please inform the mods and the moderator will decide if there is a problem with the post.

You are not to make that determination.

[IndianaGreen]

85. Speak for yourself

A Kerry avatar does not give you the right to accuse everyone you disagree with of "helping Dumbya." Does the word "McCarthyism" mean anything to you?

[mouse7]

87. Inconveniece the facts cause you is outside my realm of concern

The fact is that reThugs are giving Nader big money because they know the money they give Nader helps Dumbya just as much as if they had given it to Bush himself.

If you aren't helping elect Kerry, you're helping re-elect Bush. The personal pain that fact causes you is your issue, not mine.

If you are going to promoting things that help re-elect Dumbya, expect to be challenged on your actions regularly.

[IndianaGreen]

95. Promoting sexism and misogyny is to "help re-elect Dumbya"

I thought I give you a dose of your own argument.

[mouse7]

104. I pity people dealing with real sexism and misogyny you are mocking

You're making a mockery of real sexism and misogny.

My mom was raped by her boss late one night at work 25 years ago. She couldn't even file a complaint right away because she was a single parent and would have lost the only source of income in the household. When she did get another job, the police refused to take the report because they said it was too late to do anything at that time.

THAT'S real sexism and misogyny. This crap of yours on these threads is making a mockery of the real harms women have dealt with and continue to deal with.

[bluestateguy]

109. Evidently I'm the real sexist

Some people have really damaged feminism over the last 20 years with a victimology that Camille Paglia calls "infirmary feminism".

[bluestateguy]

89. I speak my mind. I stand for something

I don't play the political correctness game. I simply don't. People who don't like my views can either debate me or lump it.

I stand for something, and when people criticize it, I just dig in further and reaffirm my sentiments.

[IndianaGreen]

96. "I don't play the political correctness game."

How about some more sensitivity on the issue? Language is important, and the use of language to put down women, minorities and GLBT people should be condemned.

[bluestateguy]

100. Free speech is a little more important than "sensitivity"

You have not convinced me or anybody else that my comments in the original post were "sexist", and now you seem to be suggesting that I am making racist and anti-gay remarks.

Ralph Nader's presence in this election only allows the people in positions of power to continue promoting racism, sexism and homophobia for another four years. I will not contribute to his efforts by signing to put him on the ballot. Others may feel free to do so, though I will not. Part of the democratic process that allows me the right to sign, also allows me the right to not sign and to criticize those who do.

[mouse7]

106. Ohhhh... your poor virgin eyes.

You've never seen the seven words you can't say on television before, and it's destroying you, right?

Spare me the theatrics.

[ulysses]

111. *snarf*

You go publically whining to the mods about how poorly you've been treated, then talk about others' "theatrics"? :D Poor thing.

[mouse7]

114. You need to discuss insult rules with DU mods if you disagree.

I've been through too much and too many real world struggles against all the problems you say you care about to have the insults that those who really earned such charges through really despicable actions now thrown at me so cavalierly.

[ulysses]

115. oh, give it a fucking rest.

I have a pretty decent handle on DU rules, thanks. For fuck's sake, hit alert if you have a problem. And grow some skin.

[mouse7]

119. Apparently, you don't

DU rules about insults are clear. There's nothing in said rules about growing rhino skin. Maybe when you learn that, people will feel they can give the subject a rest.

[tinanator]

125. do those rules reflect smell commentaries?

save me ratman

[ulysses]

127. no, I suspect that I do.

The prime directive is pretty much "hit alert and let the mods deal with it". That that seems to not be enough for you is a personal problem of yours, not mine.

[tinanator]

128. is that speaking your mind when you dont respond to questions?

hit and run. ever signed a Nader petition?

[bluestateguy]

129. No

I would not be eligible anyway under Texas law, as I voted in the party primary. Hence, my refusal was symbolic, much like Nader candidacy.

[NoPasaran]

117. bsg, if you voted in the primary

you couldn't sign the petition anyway. Only voters who did not vote in either party's primary are eligible to sign petitions to get independents or third parties om the ballot in Texas.

[katieforeman]

135. You're my hero!

[ronnykmarshall]

150. Bravo!

I have yet to run into any Nader peeps yet. But I'll be sure to do the same.