Clinton was unelectable

[mkultra]

Bloodied badly in primaries
Bad poll numbers against Bush Sr.
Image issues
After successful war in Iraq

Please read
http://www.worldandi.com/public/1992/june/cr6.cfm

[wyldwolf]

1. Yep! Great article...

I wonder how a 1992 article shows up twice in a day?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=48933

[mkultra]

2. by magically being posted twice

[quinnox]

3. But problem is Dean ain't no Clinton

If it were on a scale here is what it would look like, at the top:

Clinton

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<about a million more dots>

Dean

[mkultra]

6. well

obviously not to you hes not. Hes got passion and drive though and that counts for allot. Which is evidenced by the high voter turnout and his strong numbers versus all Dem's.

[RaRa]

18. Clinton absolutely OOOZED charisma

I like Dean, but I can't think of ANYONE in politics right now that has a way with the public like Clinton. I'm a Clark supporter, but even the general (good looking and likeable as he is) can't hold a candle to the magical combination of intellectual meets Bubba kind of charm that Clinton's got.

[quinnox]

26. Yep

Clinton was charm personified.

[virtualobserver]

27. that charm only netted 43% and 48% in his two wins

Dean will take it to the next level.

[Octafish]

4. Clinton owes his pension to Ross Perot.

Were it not for Head Rot Parrot, the bastid Poppy would've been a two-termer.

[mouse7]

8. Damn, you are desperate

You'll rage against Dean, Clinton, or anyone else to try to slash to slightest advantage for Kerry.

What's next, damning the Kennedys and FDR for not being up to Kerry's example?

Guess what. By the time you Kerry supporters are done, the slash and burn campaign you guys are executing will have you as popular as Sherman was in Georgia in his March To The Sea?

[mkultra]

11. maybe Kerry should cus more

Just an idea

[Octafish]

25. Desperate to keep Dean off the ticket...

... because Dean's presence means four more years of Bush.

BTW: Sen. Ted Kennedy endorsed John Kerry for President. Kerry modeled his own career after Ted's big brother, President Kennedy. Check out when Kerry and JFK went sailing together:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061503.shtml

[virtualobserver]

28. Whereas Kerry's dead in the water campaign would somehow blossom

against Bush?

[mkultra]

9. Ross Perot's turnout

Considering the shift in percentages received by Perot from 1992 to 1996, i believe that the Perot vote was actually a slight majority of left leaners.

http://www.australianpolitics.com/usa/elections/96-92electoral-college.shtml

[Hippo_Tron]

19. Debateable...

The talking point is that Perot took away votes from Bush and Clinton as well.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mkultra]

7. you do realize

that he swamps everybody in the polls and he is moderate.

[DemDogs]

23. Try making a first impression twice

Dean has cast his lot. He has metamorphed whenever it has been politically pragmatic, but this is the big leagues and if you true-Dean believers think he will win as a moderate, you are not thinking logically about this. Just like this silly now-he-follows-Jesus stuff, he will always be haunted by his radical answers and demeanor when he got your support in the first place (remember that Dean? The rest of the country does, and Rove has it on tape -- over and over again.)

[virtualobserver]

31. Bush will have to survive Dean's attacks as well

anyway, why would these people who are getting their asses kicked by Dean be any match for the all powerful Rove.

[wyldwolf]

10. Perhaps you can better demonstrate how this applies to Dean..

..by taking it point by point:

Bloodied badly in primaries

Don't Dean supporters think the primaries are going to be a cake walk and the nomination will be all but sealed after Iowa and NH?

Bad poll numbers against Bush Sr.

Most poll badly against incumbants this early in the game

Image issues

Most of the country - and still many dems - know nothing about Howard Dean or any of the nominees.

So, really, give us the Dean comparison.

[mkultra]

13. ill try

Bloodied badly in primaries

Don't Dean supporters think the primaries are going to be a cake walk and the nomination will be all but sealed after Iowa and NH?

I think that although Dean has it in the bag for the primaries, that he is being savaged by the other candidates(and handing it out) as Clinton was. Many outsiders have mentioned the negativity of attacks in this primary and my reference to being bloody simply refers to that dynamic.



Bad poll numbers against Bush Sr.

Most poll badly against incumbants this early in the game

Deans current numbers against Bush seem to be a bit unconvincing to some Dem's

Image issues

Most of the country - and still many dems - know nothing about Howard Dean or any of the nominees.

The same applied to Clinton, thus the cause of his low pre-election polls. By image problems i refer to the questions of integrity that have been brought. Specifically, the "only major candidate to oppose the war from the beginning" comment and the misspoken attack on Kerry over Farms.


If you read the article i think you'll understand better what im trying to say.

[wyldwolf]

17. You didn't get the job done

I think that although Dean has it in the bag for the primaries, that he is being savaged by the other candidates(and handing it out) as Clinton was. Many outsiders have mentioned the negativity of attacks in this primary and my reference to being bloody simply refers to that dynamic.

But that wasn't how the article applied "Bloodied badly in primaries" to Clinton. Clinton struggled early on in the primaries. Again, many Dean supporters don't see that happenning to Dean.

Deans current numbers against Bush seem to be a bit unconvincing to some Dem's


So was Reagan's to Carter's and Clinton's to Bush. Incumbants USUALLY have the advantage. This isn't peculiar to Dean's campaign.

I have read the article (read it early this morning the first time it was posted.)

Lots of that article could be applied to several of the Dems.

All in all, Dean's situation (or how it is percieved to be by Dean supporters) really doesn't resemble Clinton's.

[mkultra]

33. Seemed like i addresses it

But that wasn't how the article applied "Bloodied badly in primaries" to Clinton. Clinton struggled early on in the primaries. Again, many Dean supporters don't see that happenning to Dean.



Many Democratic strategists and party activists think he may be able to regain some of his credibility among his party. But many others fear that his candidacy has been so badly damaged during the early primary process that he will find it nearly impossible to slough off his considerable negatives in a climate of widespread voter cynicism, suspicion, and anger toward all politicians.

In over three decades of political reporting, I cannot recall a time when some of the Democratic Party's senior strategists and adviser have spoken with such brutal candor about their likely nominee and his perceived weaknesses



Deans current numbers against Bush seem to be a bit unconvincing to some Dem's


So was Reagan's to Carter's and Clinton's to Bush. Incumbants USUALLY have the advantage. This isn't peculiar to Dean's campaign.

Which is exactly why i feel this line of criticism is unfounded.

[wyldwolf]

35. This is the very first time I have heard or read of a Dean supporter...

...saying "that his candidacy has been so badly damaged during the early primary process that he will find it nearly impossible to slough off his considerable negatives in a climate of widespread voter cynicism, suspicion, and anger toward all politicians" or...

...that Dean will have a hard time in the primaries.

First time.

I think you're trying to conform Dean's situation to match the article.

[ochazuke]

12. Clinton was not unelectable. Article is wrong.

Clinton had the common touch. The voters accepted his affairs with Ms. Flowers and possibly others. There was only a short time (around December-January, 1992) that it looked like he might not be electable.

Certainly his election was in doubt all along, but that is a different thing.

Whomever the Democrats nominate, he must have that common touch that all presidents have had, which the chimp has in spades, and which candidates like Kerry, Dean, and Lieberman do not.

[mkultra]

16. interesting point

Good point. I feel that he does have a touch for the common folk which is what continues to make him a winner in this primary. His disgust for the Bush administration is a quality of commonality. Like Bush's cockiness and Clinton's assured nature. Clinton's touch never seemed particularly charismatic to me but he was seen that way by the numbers of people he swayed. also a possible similarity with Dean.

[BeyondGeography]

14. Apples and oranges

*Clinton started out left-of-center and moved to the center.

*Dean started out in the center and moved left-of-center.

*Clinton's from the South.

*Dean's from New England.

*Clinton came from a state with a large minority population.

*Dean comes from a state that is 96% white.

*Clinton was the most sure-footed politician in modern times.

*Dean shoots from the hip and has a penchant for self-inflicted wounds.

*Clinton took his lumps and did not divide the party.

*Dean apparently likes to dish it out but not take it. Result: divisiveness.

Etc., etc.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. That article is spot on, but

There is NO comparison to be made between Dean and Clinton. NONE. Not even CLOSE. Clinton was poor. Raised by a single mom until she married a drunk. He was in the middle of the Civil Rights movement. Everything he has, he worked for. He's a Rhodes scholar and a BRILLIANT politician. Clinton can speak "off the cuff" better than anyone I've ever listened to and was a great president. He was actually elected.....twice.

Dean won't even come close to being elected. He was raised on Park Ave. and the Hampton's. He has been living the silver spoon fed life trying to portray himself as Mr. Mid-America, every day person who knows what it's like to wonder where his next meal will come from. I could bet he's never had THAT worry. He was Governor of one of our SMALLEST states. He lies and thinks it's OK to lie to the American people. He's more comparable to someone else who I will not name, but you know who I'm talking about.

[BeyondGeography]

20. This is an interesting point

Why do we want to run one rich kid against another? We squander an opportunity right there to draw a cultural distinction against Bush. Aristocratic origins per se shouldn't disqualify Dean, but we lose the military service issue as well against AWOL with Dean. So we're left with two rich kids who avoided Vietnam instead of AWOL (remade as Flight Suit Boy) vs. Clark or Kerry. Add to the fact that Dean actually wants to raise taxes on the middle class (which will forget how it is being screwed by Bush once they realize what Dean is proposing) and we really look elitist.

[in_cog_ni_to]

29. Right.

It's a better comparison between Bush and Dean than Clinton and Dean. THEN, compare Clark and Bush....whoa. I know the WH doesn't want the American people to make that comparison because Clark will shine SO much better. They know it too. Clark and Kerry both can shove the aircraft carrier down the shrub's throat. AWOL? hehe! Clark will slaughter him on that, Kerry too. Intellect? Well...that goes without saying. :) How they were raised? The American people will relate to Clark. He was poor growing up, like Clinton and unlike Bush and Dean. Then we can move on to foreign policy. Clark has 34 years experience and will show the shrub knows NOTHING about it and we already know Dean has no experience. As for Clark having domestic experience, he has a Masters degree in economics, is undoubtedly smart enough to run our country. He's brilliant. Clark is by far the best candidate to put up against the brainless wonder.

[mkultra]

32. not worried

I'm not worried about the candidates being rich. I think the draw for me is that he has said directly that he wants to take the country back from the likes of Falwell. Raising taxes is necessary and can be pulled off as long as the blame for it is placed on GOP borrow and spend tactics. As far as military service goes, i don't really care. Id rather have civilian in office as my personal preference. I think i would probably dodge the draft to. I never believed in Vietnam and i don't support the draft(WWII was different) so that doesn't bother me. The only thing i don't like about him is his comment to Kerry. I hope it was a mistake. Other than that, i don't really object to anything controversial he has said.

Osama does deserve a trial
Kucinich is not a major candidate(i like him though)

Dean holds number of ideals i like and he is moderate enough to draw the swing.

[DemDogs]

21. Clinton ran on hope not anger, was helped by Perot

He and Perot had the same criticism about the economy, although different solutions. Clinton was warm and positive and charming. No one who was old enough to remember thought that he was unelectable in the South and Midwest -- and he wasn't. We have truly unelectable this year as a possibility, and we need to look to Clinton's strengths and unmask the truth about where we need to go as a party.

[Hippo_Tron]

22. I think that Republicans secretly liked the him...

I mean he seems like a layed back relaxed guy, probably would be fun to hang around with him.

[mkultra]

24. they where

definitely jealous of his machismo

[BeyondGeography]

36. Gingrich had a secret crush

on the Big Dog.

[SheilaT]

30. Too many Dean bashers assume

that the Dean supporters arrogantly assume he'll get the nomination and win the election and are sitting around gloating. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We're working very hard and take nothing for granted. We're writing letters to voters in Iowa and New Hampshire and will write letters to voters in other states in a couple more weeks. We're going by the dozens and hundreds and maybe even thousands to Iowa and New Hampshire and knocking on doors and asking people to vote for Howard Dean.

Now I realize that the supporters of other candidates are doing some of those things also, but the simple fact of the matter at this point is that there are many, many more Dean supporters doing all these things.

And we're not just going to slack off if Dean does as well as we hope in Iowa and New Hampshire. We'll continue working just as hard until he gets the nomination, and then we'll be working very hard in the general election campaign.

And I remember all too well how Clinton was considered utterly unelectable by all the pundits and inside the Beltway types almost up until the evening of election day. Anyone who dismisses Dean as being unelectable is simply wrong. And anyone who dismisses Clark, Kerry, or Edwards as unelectable is also wrong. (Personally I don't see any of the others as realistically electable, but that's just my take and I could well be wrong.)

The very worst thing that's happening is all these threads simply divide us and are going to make it very hard to unite behind the eventual nominee.

So for everyone here who sincerely wants Bush gone in '05, STOP BASHING OTHER CANDIDATES. Post all the positive stuff you want to about your guy, try to persuade us that your candidate is the one we should all vote for, but STOP ALL THIS FIGHTING NOW! (This is your mother speaking, okay? Now say you're sorry and go clean your rooms)

[mkultra]

34. Yup

I agree

Electable

Dean, Kerry, Edwards, Clark,

Everyone else is just not strong enough