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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 12:59 PM
Original message
A plea for civility
I was a member of DU for almost two months before I posted anything, and was a reader/lurker for a year before that; I spent that time period familiarizing myself with the issues, the various forums, etc., and just getting an overall 'feel' for the place. In the past month, I have noticed a disturbing and dramatic increase in the number of 'flame-bait posts' and scurillous, ad hominem attacks on bothour candidates and their supporters/defenders. With that in mind, I would like to submit my own thoughts, as follow...

To those who criticize experienced 'career politicians'--- Sen. Kerry, Sen. Edwards and Congressman Gephart--- for being "Beltway insiders" (if not worse), I would ask you "Why is in-depth knowledge of governmental processes neccessarily a BAD thing?. In the event that we are successful in recapturing the White House and either one or both Houses of Congress, would you prefer that the new President's legislative agenda be shephered by those knowledgable of the process, or those who are ignorant of it? Would you wish his advisors and counselors to be learned and wise in the ways of power, or neophytes?"

To those who criticize General Clark, I ask you, "As one who has by most credible reports served this Republic well throughout his adult life--- dilligently, honorably and wisely, forsaking until late in life far more lucrative pursuits in the private sector--- why must you demonize him?. Is the ONLY 'acceptable' public service performed OUT of the uniform of our armed forces? Has this Republic no legitimate need for armed forces, and do those who have devoted their lives to armed service have nothing of value to contribute to this Republic when they return to civilian life?"

To those who criticize Congressman Kucinich, dismissing him as merely a 'flake', or a 'leftist', I say, "Today's 'flake' may be tomorrow's 'visionary'--- history is replete with examples of this very phenomenon!. Every party needs a moral compass, someone who reminds us of that we should endeavor to be what Lincoln called 'the angels of our better nature'. Regardless of what you think of his 'electability', can you honestly dismiss or marginalize him as 'unneccessary', or is your dismissal of him more venal and self-serving in nature, intended to shut away someone who uncomfortably reminds you of your DUTY to your fellow man, when you would prefer simply to be expedient?"

To those who would dismiss Ambassador Braun because of her all-too-human foibles, I ask, "Have you truly listened to her message of decency and compassion, and of the need and DUTY to care for those who are far too often 'out of sight and out of mind? Have you forgotten her FIERCE moral courage as a Senator, confronting the evils of racism and economic bigotry?"

To those who scoff at Governor Dean, and call him "a hothead", or "the governor a small, insignificant state", I ask, "Is there no place for righteous indignation in our party? Why should we NOT be angry at the theft of our right to self-governance, and at those who committed the theft? Have you forgotten the election of 2000 so quickly? Are not the States, including the very one he governed for 11 years, the 'laboratories of democracy' and often times better suited for developing new and innovative approaches to old problems which beset this Republic even to the present day?".

Any omission of any candidate by name is not meant to be disrespectful, but is done solely in the interest of verbal economy. That said, can we not return the tone of our debates in this forum to one of CIVILTY? Can we now advance our preferred candidate by confining ourselves to positive statements about them, or by raising LEGITIMATE issue and policy differences WITHOUT the needlessly inflammatory or perjorative verbiage and rhetoric? Aren't we mature enough to do that, at a minimum, or must we imitate the Repugnicrat freepers, and continue this pointless and ultimately destructive and divise pattern of decidely UN-civil discourse and 'flame wars', and ensure the re-election of those crypto-fascists who have already fired the opening shots in the war to extinguish our rights as sovereign, self-governing citizens of this Republic?

Thank you. :)
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ok, I'm no longer undecided:
Padraig 18 for president!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Two problems:
I wasn't born here, and even if I had been, you'd have to wait andother 16 years. But THANKS! :)
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RandomUser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well said, Padraig
As always,
:yourock:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thank you!
:hi:
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Ishoutandscream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. What a beautiful message
Very thoughtful. I am a Clark supporter, but will support whoever our nominee is. We need to take this message to heart. Thanks for your thoughtful post.

James
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thank you, James!
It is our duty to ourselves and our posterity to utterly roll back the forces of evil which threaten our Republic, and it is our party which lifts the shining beacon of hope to a weary and troubled America.

ABB in '04! :)
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. an echo from dKos
-- snip --
Today I got an email from a prominent writer at a prominent opinion mag. He has started an anti-Dean blog, and wanted to start a "debate".
I declined, and in the process, formulated a new policy.

It is clear that our nominee will be either Dean or Clark. No one else has a shot. Therefore, I will not criticize or point to criticism of either of those two candidates. Each one of those guys has his plusses and his cons, and each one of them can beat Bush. That's all that matters.

I sincerely suggest you footsoldiers in the Dean vs. Clark flamewars start reconsidering your tactics. Stick to being positive about your guys. Don't gleefully point to every anti-Dean or anti-Clark smear coming from a wingnut or mediawhore. You are doing their bidding.

We are all on the same team, and the time to "merge the tribes" is just a month or two away. We need to start coming together for the sake of the party and our country."

-- snip --

i'd moderate this with the following -
I still feel it's important to leave the doors open to other options regardless of polls and campaign funds available. We dont know what's going to happen before the first votes are cast. We dont know some skeleton wont be exhumed, much less some candidate saying something colossally stupid (it's happened before) - and considering our ugly history, let's all hope all our candidates stay safe through the primaries.

So lets try and be positive for ALL the candidates. If you want to ask about Kerry waffling between hawk and dove - there is a way to do it without hacking everyone off. The clark staffers managed it. We can too. There are honest questions that can be posed - and i dont mean flamebait in a patronizing way - that can draw contrasts or ask questions. We can be civil.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well said!
:hi:
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. good job
I reserve the right to bring up issues I have with any candidate, however I will not do it in a manner that could damage all our chances next november.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. We must change that thing about "only native born citizens"
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 02:12 PM by Rowdyboy
being president. You have shown more understanding of the spirit on America in your time here, than many people far older than you.

Thanks, Padraig. You're a straightup guy (that's straightup-not straight!). Plus, your essays are beautifully written.

:toast:

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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. I concur.
The call for civil discourse is always timely, and the left needs as much unity as it can muster against the impulse to fascism.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kick - excellent, Padraig!
ABB!
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. Damned well put!
n/t
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. kick
:kick:
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks

I appreciate the sentiment, and have tried to live by the sentiment.

I then read some horrible threads by people that are just trying to be hateful and feel the need to set the record straight. Thanks again for this sentiment - we should all rise to this level.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thank you, all!
:hi::dem:
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petrock2004 Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. i'm not just bookmarking this thread...
i'm saving what you wrote on my computer.

i haven't been here for a very long time, but i think i've avoided doing any candidate-bashing - probably because i just don't pay enough attention, lol.

the way i avoid most of this negative crap though is that i don't really watch the televised news (except when a republican bird is singing on CBS about the 9/11 report, yay!) and i also just basically try to ignore all the bad things people say about each other's candidates. take it all with a grain of salt i guess. the things i argue about are issues.

i think gen. clark would be an absolutely wondeful president, but at the same time, i think ANYBODY would be wonderful at this point. so if everybody just ignores the karlmonster and sticks to their convictions, i think we'll do just fine.

+solidarity+

ABB!!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. ABB in '04!
Thank you for your kind words! :hi:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick
:dem:
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INTELBYTES Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. Bite me!
nt
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Have a nice day!
:P
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Dude I am glad you did this
I am sick of it too but I fear your call will fall on death ears. I'll say it again as I say about religion, great people in all camps and asses too, such is life man. I hope people listen to you, because youre right. I may be one stubborn idealistic sob but I am a democrat, and I am gonna support our nominee. On to victory, we shall go.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. We must keep our eye upon the doughnut, and not the hole.
ABB, John! :)
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petrock2004 Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. mmmmmm.....
doughnuts...

lol, sorry, that was just the wrong thing for me to read right now

MUNCH MUNCH :D
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. LOL!
You doofus! :P
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Dont make me hungry
Yes ABB :)
Now I sure could go for a donut or a porkchop right now.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. THanks, Padraig
I wholeheartedly agree. We can discuss issues without attacking each other and the candidates. I appreciate your thoughtful comments about all the candidates.

Umm, you left out Lieberman. ;-)
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thank you
Well said
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. YW.
:)
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
29. Sounds good.
I've tried to keep many of my feelings to myself even though I have strong likes and dislikes of many of the candidates. There IS one exception of a candidate I can't help but bash, but thats only cause they keep bashing Democrats. For the sake of "civility" they shall remain nameless. I'd rather see threads trying to convince to support their candidate rather than oppose another. I've got three candidates I would like to see win, with they exception of the ONE, ALL will recieve my vote against chimp with various degrees of enthusiasm.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
31. I am with you
All the candidates have both their good and bad qualities, but all seem to be light years ahead of bush, even Lieberman
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I couldn't agree more.
I find Joe Lieberman's hawkishness distasteful, but he is honestly quite progressive (civil rights, the environment, education, etc.), in the main, and I have no doubt that this country would be lightyears' better off unedr a Liberman administration than it is under a * administration.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
33. Kick
:dem:
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chocolateeater Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. This thread is a breath of fresh air
I agree with you wholeheartedly.:yourock: :toast:
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