I was a mighty defender of the Clintons throughout the 90s and into the 21st Century

[Liberal Dose]

My email group had a raging ongoing flame war as well as the political message boards on aol. I was right in the thick of it all, defending Bill throughout the impeachment*, then on into 2000 where I chastised Al Gore for distancing himself from Bill. After September 11, 2001, I don't know how many times I had to correct people who said "Clinton did nothing" in regard to terrorism. The reason for my strong defense was because I adored and totally believed in him. In them. Bill and Hill, the co-presidents.

The reason I believed in them was because of how I felt when I came face to face with Bill twice on his campaign trails. I was lucky enough to be front row both times and offered a Clinton/Gore sign to hold up (I still have them).
The second is most vivid to me. It was at Mill Creek Park in Portland, Maine. When Bill sprang out of the limo, WBLM played "Let the Day Begin" by The Call and the very air changed. Bill began to shake hands and when he finally made it around to me, I swear time stood still. He grasped my hand in both of his (his hands were dry, warm, and faintly calloused), looked directly at me with those beautiful, smiling eyes and said "Hi! Thanks so much for coming out to support me." I mean, he was "there" with me, in the moment. He was REAL and I BELIEVED in him because of it. Much to my delight, a podium was placed directly in front of me so I had one of the best spots in the park. I wanted to kick the woman with the large sign protesting sanctions on Iraq, or NAFTA or Welfare reform (I forget which but it pissed me off that she was there). How dare she ruin this glorious day!?

In 2003 I started writing to Hillary, begging her to run for President. When I finally woke up and looked at her voting record (thank you, person here on DU who brought it to my attention with links for the lazy) I stopped begging and was actually relieved that she didn't run.

I'm not trying to write a book here. All I really want to say is that finding out your hero is actually covered in slime HURTS, DAMMIT! To have idolized and defended these two makes me feel ashamed and foolish. And now, with each new lie, and with each new dirty deal revealed, I am starting to feel nothing but contempt. It really does feel personal.

I was just wondering if anyone else has felt the same at all?

*I still have a nagging question about the whole Monica ordeal: We all know that Monica sent the infamous blue Gap dress to her mom for safe keeping. How the heck did Monica explain it to her? "Uh, mom? I got some of the President's stuff on my dress. Can you save it in case I'm ever secretly taped and need evidence to support what happened?" I mean, was there a note with the dress? What? Okay, I'm done now.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. Your mind is on Monica. That says it all n/t

[redqueen]

2. I love how you ignore the rest to focus on that. Well done.

"I wanted to kick the woman with the large sign protesting sanctions on Iraq, or NAFTA or Welfare reform..."

[Liberal Dose]

4. You obviously didn't read the post. Why did you reply at all? nt

[Fredda Weinberg]

13. I read it. Slime is on and in your mind ... not my candidate. So there n/t

[Liberal Dose]

20. Proving you have no sense of humor, but thanks for playing! nt

[snooper2]

41. Your not allowed to post that name

MONICA

[Breeze54]

3. "I wanted to kick the woman with the large sign protesting sanctions on Iraq, or NAFTA or Welfare re

That was me. :P

Not! :rofl: (Not in Maine, anyway) ;)

Nice post.

:kick: & Recommended

[Liberal Dose]

5. Okay, well.....I no longer want to kick you

:hi:

[DevonRex]

6. LOL!

That's one question I had never thought of. And I'm famous in my household for talking about stuff that makes you go "hmmm."
I was a defender, too. And I was awed by Bill. He could bring tears to my eyes. I still hate the investigations and impeachment. I believe there is a vast right wing conspiracy.
But I have to say that now that I've seen the Hillary campaign I'm kinda wondering what on earth they did in Arkansas way back in the governors races that raised so many hackles. Maybe they didn't do anything and the republicans were just so afraid of a very talented dem. But maybe they played their politics then as Hillary is playing it now.

[movonne]

8. very good

[MADem]

7. Nope. sorry. How many more of these pathetic "conversion tales" will be shopped here?

Forgive me if I doubt your sincerity. But I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I think your little story is a load of crap.

[Liberal Dose]

10. Thanks for the kick!

:hug:

[MADem]

27. You're quite welcome. I don't object to continued discussion at all of this topic.

I don't believe in suppression of any subject mater, even if the assertions are beyond reasonable belief.

So here's another one.

[madaboutharry]

12. Wow, you sure are a cynic.

And a bit rude too.

[MADem]

25. No, I'm not a cynic. I just have a sensitive BS meter. NT

[Ian_rd]

16. Why do you think it's crap?

You can find similar stories all over the internet right now. Do you have a reason to think that the OP is lying?

[MADem]

24. Because it IS crap. The dramatic "conversion." Bullshit. NT

[Liberal Dose]

28. So you don't like the way I write *shrugs* whateva nt

:hug:

[Ian_rd]

30. No reason given. Why do you think it's crap?

The world is not flat because it ISSSSS! Try to give me a reason. Call it ridiculous. Say the OP is misguided. Whatever. But if you're going to accuse someone of lying, then you need to do better than "it just is."

[MADem]

33. Because anyone who is "now" suddenly and magically "offended" is

either dense or disingenuous.

I prefer to think the poster is not dense. No one can possibly be that obtuse.

[Ian_rd]

35. So you're simply being generous in assigning "liar" instead of "idiot" to the OP

Big heart you have. And that logic - wow - can't touch it.

[MADem]

43. It's not a question of heart. Or even "generosity."

It is a question of "believability."

After all, there are some here who are real big on that "BELIEVE" thing....

What, it's a one-way street?

:rofl:

[Liberal Dose]

48. In case no one has noticed: It doesn't friggin matter if ya do or don't nt

[Ian_rd]

49. You so silly

Here, I can add that rofl emoticon for punch too:

:rofl:

Ahh that was so much easier than a rational argument! Let me try another one:

:eyes:

Sweet!

[Liberal Dose]

53. That does feel better now, doesn't it? lol nt

[Liberal Dose]

36. If you read the post it wasn't NOW and SUDDENLY, but it is obvious you would rather be hostile, so

do carry on with your bad self :)

[MADem]

46. I'm not hostile. Truly. I disbelieve you.

And I will carry on, thanks much.

[Liberal Dose]

54. I don't believe you. I think you believe every single word. Twice. nt

[MADem]

55. I do "believe" every word I put forth here.

Although I think you engage in deliberate prevarication to tout your choice of candidate.

[Liberal Dose]

57. I didn't even mention John Edwards in the original post!! nt

[anigbrowl]

37. Seeing as how the OP relates a tale of disenchantment going back to 2003...

I'd say you're full of it. I found the OP to be quite worthwhile as my own experience was similar. I was in my 20s when the Clintons were in the WH and were big supporters of them; indeed, I still think there was a lot of great stuff about the Clinton administration. But I'm no longer convinced that Clinton 2.0 is a good idea.

[Liberal Dose]

39. Pssst.....promise not to tell anyone

I would totally melt all over again if I came face to face with Bill. Charisma doesn't even describe it. Yeah, even with that old man face he's got now lol.

[MADem]

42. I'd say no one but a dunce takes that long. And I am not calling the OP a dunce. NT

[Liberal Dose]

45. Y'know you really are too sweet. I only have 3 words for the likes of you...

GO RED SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jerah]

51. I'm sad/sick/depressed

How, how HOW can we f*ck this up again!? I'm almost ashamed to be a Democrat. I'm beginning to think the Republicans could put a rotting chunk of ground beef on the ballot and they'd still win. And I do blame Hillary's campaign. She's been far more negative and just getting worse. I don't care if they wanted to stay in the race until the end. That's fine, but this has turned into fanatic cannabilism. And the fact that there is no intelligent debate just means it will only get worse. I look at the Hillary supporters group and they are all completely ignorant of why the Obama supporters have developed a complete disgust with Hillary. So they stay in their little forums and come out once in awhile to put one quick comment in a general thread that does nothing but get the Obamites all worked up. And it seems like her official campaign is running the same strategy. Almost every day they are coming out with some ridiculous attack and instead of defending them logically they just launch another attack and move on alienating even more of their base. At a time when we should be exalting in the fact we have 2 viable candidates, one a woman and the other a black man, some would rather destroy the party than have their candidate lose. It's going to be so nice to say "Well McCain won, but at least we beat Obama/Clinton" YAY DEMOCRATS!!!!

[Liberal Dose]

58. Well stated, and welcome to DU!! nt

:hi:

[Jerah]

64. Thank you, glad I found this place

"Still Voting Democrat"

[MADem]

60. Well, people on the other side blame Obama and his Monster Mash and his acolytes

who paper the internet with invective and who are profoundly and aggressively RUDE to those who don't drink that Kool Aid.

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

It takes two to tango.

You point out that you think that "some" would rather 'destroy the party'.... if they don't do what YOU want. Others, on the opposite team, think that "some" would rather do the same thing when they throw Barack Hussein Obama, in Somali clothing, with Rezko at his side, smoking pot and doing coke, and every other scandalous piece of crap they can dig up about him, up against McCain so he can be torn to shreds by the GOP smear machine...and watch anyone and everyone over age sixty "hold their nose" and vote for Fucking Popeye.

For every Republican who wants Clinton as the nominee because they think she can be beaten, there are easily twice as many who think that Obama is an EASY target and will be decimated in a general election.

All of that crap is anecdotal, and the only thing that will prove or disprove it is an actual nomination, and an election. Which WILL come in time.

This HAS turned into "fanatic cannibalism." But it's happening on BOTH SIDES.

I'm voting for the nominee. I'm not doing like a whole shitload here, and taking my ball and going home if "MY" candidate doesn't win. That's the act of a fucking child who doesn't give a shit about who sits on the Supreme Court.

Be heartened in that DU is just a way-to-the-left slice of internet life. Most people in the Real World aren't as "far out" as some of the people here. That's a good thing.

[Jerah]

63. Let's try to find common ground

I never said it's not both sides creating this mess. I do think the campaigns have been markedly different in tone and strategy however. That's fine, it's politics, but we can't allow it to ruin our chances in the general election. It would be nice if all the Obama supporters could counter the attacks as calmly as Obama does himself because you're right, a lot of it comes off as rude and petulant.
Maybe we can agree to all use a similar signature that will diffuse some of this chest beating and teeth gnashing? I am new to this site and was sickened, as I said, at the level of animosity between the two sides. So maybe I don't have the "experience", pardon the pun, to suggest anything, or maybe because I have a fresh view on these forums I might have some fresh ideas. How about we all use something like "Still voting Democrat." or "Still not voting for McCain". At least then we could end each post with a common purpose instead of more bile. Because from what I'm seeing these back and forth "He's all talk" "She's all lies" arguments are fracturing us. And if McCain wins we're ALL going to feel very stupid.


"Still voting Democrat"

[MADem]

65. Here's my common ground--I am voting for the Democratic nominee.

That's the best I can do.

I am not worried about this "destroy the party" bullshit. That's just a fake theme to tamp down objections to the anointing of a candidate who has not earned the nomination. The flip side is that it's used to place blame on the other contender.

If a little infighting can destroy this party, it ain't much of one. I think it will make the party stronger, myself. It's never a bad idea to have a dress rehearsal of the shit they'll toss ahead of time.

Forget trying to get this crowd to "Kumbayah" though. They LIKE this shit. The "fight" is more important than the principles.

We've been down this road before, and we'll survive it.

[Jerah]

66. I don't think you undertsnad just how mad people are getting

I know you've repeatedly said you don't believe the people saying they used to like Hillary but are now disgusted by her. You're wrong on that point for sure.

I know myself 2 of my friends that are so anti-Hillary now that they have repeatedly told me they will not vote for her in the election. They were not exactly Pro-Hillary at any point, but they would have happily voted for her in November if she had won the nomination without all this negativity. And it's not about the fact that they just want their man to win and for you to do as they tell you. It has to do with the tactics and tone of the campaign. And just as that has disintegrated so are the common ties between democrats. This is a real problem, just read the Hillary supporters forum or any anti Hillary thread in the general. And this theme is repeated on many websites. I'm not asking for everybody to come together and agree, I just disagreed with you, but we need to realize what's at stake. You can't demean someone for months on end and then expect it to be forgotten instantly. You're right, we have been down this road before and it gave us 8 years of Bush.
Glad you'll still vote Democratic, but I'm worried a lot of people won't.

"Still Voting Democrat"

[jeffrey_X]

62. Are you saying they are lying? I think these are valid.

My wife has a very similar story. I don't think this type of story is pathetic. I think it's very valid. It may not be what you want to hear, but that makes it your problem.

[madaboutharry]

9. I'll tell you, I did not know that Monica sent

the blue dress to her mother for safe keeping. That seems a bit weird to me. Didn't she ever hear of a safe deposit box?

Hillary Clinton was never a hero for me, but I did send her money for her campaign. I also feel a lot of contempt.

I emailed her asking for my donation back. I haven't heard anything yet. :(

[Liberal Dose]

14. The fact that Monica sent the dress to her mom made me believe she was a plant. There are other

things in her testimony that made me believe she was paid to do what she did. I still think Monica's entire story is bullshit. So, I guess at least some things never change :)

[AtomicKitten]

11. I too was an enforcer for the Clintons for two decades, but I got better.

:)

K&R

[Liberal Dose]

19. Thanks for the K, the R and the validation

:hi:

[eissa]

15. I feel your pain

8 years spent defending the Clinton administration (with no regrets, I might add.) Yes, I believe in the right-wing conspiracy. And, yes, even though I have issues with some of his positions, when all is said and done, I still rank Bill as one of our greatest presidents. I love hearing him talk, and I think he would have been a great statesman for the country. I would have loved to see him continue his role as sort of a goodwill ambassador since the rest of the world really loves him.

But Hillary is not Bill. And living in a conservative part of CA, I know exactly how much those on the right absolutely HATE the Clintons. I don't want to go another 4 years (at least) of that kind of fighting (which she seems to thrive on.) We're the US, for God's sake -- we're don't do dynasties. I want someone new, with a fresh perspective who will take us in a different direction. Hillary is not it.

[Liberal Dose]

17. ITA with you about Bill's great job as President. I do not like him as the spouse of someone running

for the nomination. He's not doing her any favors by telling far fetched tales of overhearing casino workers talk about being threatened in Nevada, or floating the idea of a Hillary/Obama ticket. (When I saw "I feel your pain" I thought it was going to be a post from a Bill hater lol)

[DesertFlower]

18. yep. defended both of them.

i adored bill.

as far as monica. i guess she had a very open relationship with her mom.

now as far as her dad. it was all over the news that monica was "the blow job queen". it was not just bill. she was known for it. how do you face your father? i would have been mortified if my father heard all that. but when she flew back to california, she ran into his open arms.

the dress? i would have sent it to the cleaners, but's that's just me.

[Liberal Dose]

22. We love our kids unconditionally, no matter what they do. It has just always bothered me, wondering

how she explained the dress. Like I said further up, I still think Monica was hired to go in and do what she did. Though I can totally understand the attraction in the first place (to Bill, not her lol).

[DesertFlower]

31. she told people when she got the job

that she was going to get her "presidential knee pads". if she were hired to do it, i think she would have kept it quiet.

i feel sorry for monica. her life is ruined. even if she meets a nice guy and gets married and has kids, this incident will follow her forever. how do you explain something like that to your kids?

[Rageneau]

21. If you were oh-so-loyal, then what "Lie" made you abandon the Clintons.

Like others here, I really don't believe you were ever the committed Clinton supporter you say you were.

Because if you HAD been, none of the current crop of wingnut-generated, MSM and Obama-campaign-delivered lies would phase you a bit.

TRUE Clinton suporters have seen Clinton's enemies tell one lie after another about them -- falsely accuse them of one criminal act after another -- attribute their least offensive gesture to a desire for universal slaughter and mayhem against all not named Clinton ad infinitum. We're used to it, innoculated against it, not susceptible to its infection anymore. We won't be railroaded by political witch hunts.

Clinton supporters do not flip-flop to the other guy because we suddenly start believing the lies about them. Obama supporters may WISH we did that, but we won't and don't. By now, we know the game. We're used to the slanders against the Clintons. We recognize them. We have seen through them before and still do -- whether those lies come from Limbaugh, Matthews or Axelrod.

The Clintons have always had enemies. Once, it was the right-wing and the MSM. Today, it's the right-wing, the MSM and the Obama campaign.

Thus far, the Clintons have out dueled, outfought and outlasted them all.

[Liberal Dose]

26. Wow, you Hillary supporters are hostile. BTW, I'm an Edwards supporter who will vote for

Obama for the sole reason that he is not Hillary. I don't believe you really want me to list all my reasons. Your question was hostile and rhetorical. I'll give you one, anyway. The lie that hurt was when Bill said he overheard a couple of casino workers in Nevada talking about how they were told they better vote for Obama "or else." I couldn't believe the Big Dog would sink like that. Oh, yeah, thanks for the kick! :hug:

[Rageneau]

29. Were you there? Do you KNOW that Clinton lied?

Or is that just what you (and other Clinton detractors) choose to believe.

To my knowledge, neither Bill nor Hillary has even been caught is a completely untrue statement.
But just the other day, I saw Obama caught in one.

How come the Clintons -- who are constantly accused of lying -- have bever been caught in a real lie, while obama gets clean away with telling an obvious falsehood (e.g.. nobody in my campaign talked to Canada) and nobody seems to notice.

[Liberal Dose]

34. I still don't believe you want to have a discussion with me, but I do not believe Bill's story

because how is it he could've heard this conversation when surrounded by secret service as well as reporters, etc? Why is it that nobody else was able to hear these workers? Did Bill suddenly develop super hearing powers?

Oh, hey, I just noticed you don't donate to DU. Would you like me to make a donation for you so you can have a little star, too? :)

[emilyg]

23. Monica? Getoutofhere.

[Liberal Dose]

32. Come on! Didn't you defend Bill through all that? Have you never ever wondered what she said to mom

when she asked her to shrink wrap that dress? Did you only read the bottom of the post? :hi:

[emilyg]

38. Anything relating to Monica is not my business.

[Liberal Dose]

40. It's not anyone's business, but you cannot tell me that you didn't even once wonder...? nt

:hi:

[OzarkDem]

44. Clenis obsession n/t

[Liberal Dose]

47. Oh come on! You only read the humorous question at the bottom??? Not the whole thing??? nt

[David Zephyr]

50. Mzztakable, check out the video "Primary Colors" and watch it again after all these years.

Our family, also huge Clinton supporters (I voted for him at two national conventions with the California delegations) and defenders, we sucked it in and watched "Primary Colors" taken from the book that roughly chronicles the Clintons' 1992 campaign.

There, written by a Clinton insider, are already the painful seeds of how they betray even their most loyal friends who believe in them.


Billy Bob Thorton is James Carville to the T.

Emma Thompson is Hillary Clinton.

John Travolta is Bill Clinton.

As we revisited that film after all those years, it was nearly heartbreaking to watch because I found myself identifying with Kathy Bate's character in finally dealing with the pain of disillusionment with the Clintons. How nearly prophetic that film, that I once dismissed as silly, now seems all these years later.

As a recovering Clintonite and still proud liberal Democrat, I'd love to hear your reaction to seeing the film now that you, too are coming to this place in how we see the Clintons.

Fascintating film that aged well and is nearly prophetic:

Governor Jack Stanton - Bill Clinton, Governor of Arkansas and later President
His wife Susan Stanton - Hillary Clinton
Campaign manager Henry Burton - George Stephanopoulos
Campaign strategist Richard Jemmons - James Carville
Campaign adviser Daisy Green - Mandy Grunwald and/or Dee Dee Myers
Campaign chief Howard Ferguson - Harold Ickes, Jr.
New York Governor Orlando Ozio - Mario Cuomo, NY Governor
His son Jimmy Ozio - Andrew Cuomo
Senator Charlie Martin - Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey
Former New Hampshire Senator Lawrence Harris - Former Massachusetts Senator Paul Tsongas/Former California Governor Jerry Brown
Wisconsin Senator Bart Nilson - Iowa Senator Tom Harkin
Former Florida Governor Freddy Picker - Former California Governor Jerry Brown/Former Florida Governor Reubin O'Donovan Askew/Former Iowa Senator and Governor Harold Hughes/Ross Perot
NYC Mayor Richmond Rucker - NYC Mayor David Dinkins
Rev. Luther Charles - Rev Jesse Jackson
House Majority Leader Adam Larkin - House Majority Leader Dick Gephardt
Senate Majority Leader Donny O'Brien - Former House Speaker Tip O'Neill
Suspected Stanton's lover Cashmere McLeod - Gennifer Flowers
Campaign defender Libby Holden - Betsey Wright

[Liberal Dose]

52. Hey thanks for the suggestion! I will watch it again. nt

[David Zephyr]

56. Let me know your thoughts after you watch it.

I'd be very curious as to your reaction.

[Liberal Dose]

59. I will do that. Right now I'm remembering my reaction the first time I saw it. I liked the movie,

but thought of it as a smear campaign. I was especially disappointed in the insinuation that Bill would've impregnated a 13 yr old girl. I'm anxious to watch it again now.

[Straight Shooter]

61. Fact of life, idols have feet of clay.

Obama's pedestal will crack and crumble, too, when reality sets in. As one of my teachers said to me, "Great expectations, great disappointment."