Conservative: 'Dean will be 44th President of the United States'

[Scott Lee]

OK, I rubbed my eyes, shook my head and read the article again. And again.

Yet there it remained. A "christian conservative" who came right out and, far from salivating over a Dean candidacy so Bush can trounce him, proclaimed that Howard Dean would actually be the next president of the United States. Why?

Read for yourself....

_____________________________________




Howard Dean’s Keys To The White House
Carl F. Worden

When I wrote “President Howard Dean”, Al Gore hadn’t yet given Dean his endorsement. It was yet another solid step Dean achieved on his journey to the White House in November.

I am a Christian conservative who voted for Bush in 2000, and I write for a largely conservative and excellent Internet news and opinion publication called The Sierra Times. Remarkably, the positive responses I received from that article ran 8 to 2, 2 being those who said I was dead, absolutely DEAD wrong. The fact that largely conservative readers responded as positively as they did, means I am not wrong, and I am sticking to my prediction that Howard Dean will be sworn in as the 44th President of the United States.

Don’t misunderstand me: Dean’s platform supports all forms of elective abortion, which I strongly oppose, but pinch yourselves and try to remember that it is the Judiciary Branch that controls the issue of abortion – not the Executive Branch – and that means a presidential candidate’s position on abortion means little more than window dressing – window dressing that gets 100% of the “Choice” voter.

<snip>

Of course, I have no idea what Dean’s position is on free trade, NAFTA/GATT or the WTO. As far as I know, he hasn’t said. Maybe he’s saving that for the finishing shot. I’m speculating of course, but Mr. Dean, if you are reading this, I just gave you the keys to the White House.

entire article here -> http://sierratimes.com/03/12/29/ar_carlworden.htm


____________________________


Now, I find myself in stark opposition to most of Mr. Worden's positions on the issues stated in his article (then again, I'm a Red. What do you expect?) so, why was his view worthy of note?

It demonstrates something I have suspected for quite awhile; namely, that many "real" conservatives are furious and fed up with Junior, and are ready to vote for Dean to prove their point. Dean just skirts their good graces close enough to grab the conservative anger vote. And for those who might not yet believe the obvious, there are a hell of a lot of conservatives out there.

Bathe yourself in the irony that the votes that actualy put Howard Dean over the top may well come from the people that were scared to death of his party four years ago.

[Padraig18]

1. I know a LOT of principled conservatives who are done with GWB.

Several have come to meetups, and many have asked for Dean literature. :)

[Raya]

13. Like Krystol, who write how Dean can win, and Luntz now a big Dean Booster

Interesting thing -- Krystol is part on PNAC. And Luntz, a republican polster, who raise his eyebrows when asked if Dean has any chance of winning against Bush.

I wonder why all the republicans are saying Dean is inevitable, and
he "could" beat Bush??

[Brian_Expat]

18. Because Dean is really a conservative Republican!

He's taken over first the gay community, and then the broader community of Americans who are fed up. Once he gets elected, he'll take off his mask, Scooby-Doo-style, and reveal himself to be. . . NEWT GINGRICH! :crazy:

[Democrats unite]

19. Hasn't taken over my Gay Community!

Are you refering to the one in England?

[Scott Lee]

33. I'll bite

"I wonder why all the republicans are saying Dean is inevitable, and
he "could" beat Bush??"

*raises hand*

Because he actually can?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Conservatives I know

are looking seriously at Dean because of his track record at balancing budgets. They are furious with Shrub's budget busting ways, and won't vote for him again.

[Padraig18]

3. That's THE issue with most I know, too.

:)

[Scott Lee]

8. Yet, many of Dean's detractors swat him for fiscally conservative

budgeting. Now that very act may be winning him an incalculable amount of votes not expected outside the Democratic base.

Today's lesson: IRONY.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. What we are seeing is the emergence

of Dean Republicans, remember it was the Reagan Democrat who pushed
Ronnie over the top for his first term... and nobody in punditry expected it... same thing at work here

[patricia92243]

32. The phrase Dean republican needs to be used every chance we get

[absyntheNsugar]

57. God I hope so

As it stands right now Dean IS poised to win the nomination. Although I'm a Clark supporter, those of you know me know I was a Dean supporter and still support him to some extent.

Anyway, none of us should kid ourselves. Dean is a gamble, but despite the long shot it may look like, there are some cards in Dean's hand that could just win the entire kitty.

- Old Fashioned Republican support. Exactly as was mentioned, the "Dean Republicans" could give us the biggest edge on this one. If this is to be true, expect the Northeast to be his biggest bump. I actually see Dean taking the ENTIRE Northeast. Including PA and NH.

- Neo-Libertarian support. Some of these guys supported Perot. A lot of them backed Bush I. They're pissed about the Patriot act and the budget.

- The 18-25 set. Although not *the* straw that broke the Camel formerly known as Bush I's back, they did help in getting Clinton elected. Every little bit counts in this election, and IF these guys surpassed the numbers they did in '92 they could very well be that straw.

Of course, part of me fears the worst - that the Republicans are supporting Dean because they think he'll pull a McGovern - and they want to ensure that.


-

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

9. Bombtrack, just quit, ok?

.

[calimary]

41. Same request from me, too. Just quit it, okay?

Folks, it's time to start mellowing out. It looks as though the momentum is on Dean's side. Okay? It just DOES.

I happen to be a Dean supporter. But I am absolutely determined to support WHOMEVER or WHOEVER is our standard-bearer. Yes, even Lieberman. But at this point, it's looking more and more clear and more and more inevitable that Dean will be our guy. If I were NOT a Dean person, and was more ardent about Kerry or Kucinich or somebody else, I WOULD INDEED be looking at the facts and realities as they currently present themselves. And I would be weighing a change of allegiance.

The FACTS and REALITIES are that Dean has caught fire and the others have not. For WHATEVER reason. Dean has won the money race, and opted out of federal matching funds as others have not, so they will be held to limits that no longer apply to him. Therefore, he stands to continue winning the money race since he's now able to grow unhindered, without a ceiling. Further, the megabucks that Dean has collected has, for the most part, come from small donors whose average is about 70 bucks per person, compared to the elites who write those 2,000 dollar checks to the bushies. That adds up to a LOT of people when you look at Dean's totals and what pushed them so high.

I just wish like hell that people would start facing it: it looks VERY much like Dean is going to be it. THINGS CAN ALWAYS CHANGE. I, for one, am prepared for that, and I will readily switch my allegiance if that happens. But for now, I've read the writing on the wall and, to my eyes, it says "Howard Dean." I think, just thinking practically, that Dean is it. And anybody who's truly realistic will likely conclude the same thing.

I also wish like hell that EVERYONE here would remember: BUSH IS THE ENEMY. NOT OUR GUYS. NOT A ONE OF THEM.

So we should act accordingly.

[Padraig18]

15. If you can't be semi-civil, why post?

:shrug:

[Dr.Phool]

22. Republicans

I work 4 hours every Monday morning at our county Democratic HQ. I answer the phones and return calls to all of the people who called over the week-end. We're in a fairly conservative area of Florida.

I get a lot of calls from life-long Republicans who are furious at Bush and his henchmen. They don't like the way things are going, and the ONLY candidate they ask about is HOWARD DEAN! Being a Dean supporter myself, I'm more than happy to help them out, and invite them to get involved, and some have. If they should ask about another candidate, I'll give an honest neutral assessment, and put them in contact with the right people. But, so far it's all Dean.

This is called building and expanding our base. These are some of the people who are going to help us take back our country from corporations and lobbyists and wing nuts. When you get them, treat them like gold, because they become the true believers. You can disagree on some issues, but you can still work towards a common goal. Ridding the country of the Bush Clan!!

I actually believe that the electorate of the U.S. is more liberal than anyone thinks. Ever since Reagan demonized the word, nobody wants to admit it.

Lets invite them in and clean out the White House....and the Senate....and the congress....and the judiciary.

:toast:

[Scott Lee]

25. Thanks for a perspective from someone really working it

rather than pontificating from a computer station chair. This is good news indeed.

[Dr.Phool]

30. It only gets better

I attended Camp Wellstone (www.wellstone.org) a couple of weeks ago in Orlando. 3 days of intensive campaign training. They've already trained over 5,000 activists in the last year, and are having sessions in another 30 cities this year.

They are turning out an army of well trained organizers using Paul Wellstones techniques for building and mobilizing a grassroots campaign. The Repukes and the X-tian Coalition have been beating us to death in this area for years, but thats changing. One of the instructors was Jeff Blodgett, who managed all of Wellstones campaigns. Another was Roy Temple, who engineered Ashcroft "the loses to a dead guy campaign". All for $35, and thats all returned to you for meals.

Let's kick some Republican butt this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:kick:

[Raya]

35. Are these guy serious. Or is this just a joke on us?

[Vogon_Glory]

6. Sierra Times Writers Fed Up With Dubya? Fascinating

I have interacted with some of the Sierra Times types back when my ISP was the Nut--Chase outfit. My interactions have given me a very sour outlook on self-styled "conservatives," their politics, and their ability to discern what's really what. I find the idea that many of them are finally realizing that Dubya's corporatism doesn't quite resemble their ideology to be intriguing.

While I would and will toast Confusion to our opponents (I drink little so my toast is likely to be with mineral water or diet cola), I would hardly think that Far Right disenchantment with Dubya would be a done deal until after the ballots are counted and the Electoral College proclaims a Democratic presidential candidate a winner.

Just maybe some of these right-wingers will continue their political education and enlightenment and come over to the light side of the Force.

[Scott Lee]

11. For sure - it's too early to tell. But what this signals is significant.

Whether we consider them idiots or not (which I know doubt think the lions share of them are), if they are starting to think like this, it could be an unimaginably productive boon for Dean in the GE.

As another participant on this thread said - it was the Reagan Democrat that put him over the top to win. Could history do an inverse repetition here?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Yes I beleive we are seeing it

and just like with Reagan only the political junkies (aka us) are
seeing it, the pundits are missing the signs, because this rag is
done outside the mainstream, and I mean it.

[Vogon_Glory]

53. Here's Hoping You're Right!

From your keyboard to the Almighty's monitor, Scott Lee!

O8)

[worldgonekrazy]

7. The budget deficits are a big issue for true conservatives

They don't like Bush's fiscal irresponsibility. Dean can use the hundreds of millions of dollars he will raise to drive that point home.

[calimary]

43. We should repeat that meme - Dean Republicans.

We DID have Reagan Democrats.

Maybe the tide is turning...

[HereSince1628]

10. I'll wait'n see if Republicans in significant proportion vote Dean

It would be nice, but the reds have to shake the tree a little to get attention in their party, too. If they are still voting for a Democrat after the apples are shaken from the tree, great.

[wryter2000]

12. True conservatives

Lots of true conservatives are sick of Bush*. This doesn't surprise me one bit.

[feckerman]

24. Conservatives sick

Funny story - I sadly have a very conservative family. My three uncles all hated Clinton, and started by loving Bush. I have running bets on Dean w/ them for over a year now.

One of them came to our most recent family get together and admitted that he has come to the conclusion that this country cannot afford another term of GWB. He said (rightly) that Bushes spending has been reckless and he has not kept a control on (gasp) special interests. Then the shocker- he said while he was sure Bush wasn't getting his vote, he would very much consider Dean because of his fiscal record and gun position.

This very well may put him over the top. *glee*

[Polemonium]

14. A few conservatives I know are hacked with no child left behind

The more we talk to each other, the more evident it becomes just how many people shrub has hacked off.

education
a clean and protected environment
the middle class
increasing number of people living in poverty
people held without charge
the economy
the budget deficit
exporting of jobs
etc

Bush* has disappointed most Americans on one or many of these issues. Sure we knew most democrats are pissed, but the more people I talk to, I find we are not alone.

[Padraig18]

17. Bush's 'support' is a mile wide and an inch deep.

That's one of the many reasons I find this "Oh my GOD, we're soooo far behind" garbage laughable. Most true conservatives I know are hacked off at Bush big time...

[Demobrat]

23. I don't know many conservatives

but I do know plenty of people who couldn't even tell you who the Vice President was who can't wait to get rid of Bush. It's almost funny how he's hurt so many different people in so many different ways. Not affected by the stock market crash because you don't own stocks? Your husband in the reserves just got sent to Iraq for a year. Don't care about environmental issues? Your out-of-work 26 year old college graduate son and his pregnant wife are living with you. Got a little tax break because you've got two kids? Your kids are afraid to go to school and learning nothing. Everybody's got a beef with Bush, even if they haven't figured it out yet. Everybody.

[Scott Lee]

27. The only ones who can still stand Bushhole are the elite rich

and their advocates. The top 5 or so percent, the super-rich,...those who are insulated from about everything save a comet smashing them flat, THEY love the guy.

But sadly for them, they are outnumbered.

[Zomby Woof]

20. George Will praised him too

Exactly what I am looking for in a Democratic candidate - endorsements from conservatives! :eyes:

[JenniferO]

21. Exactly Zomby......

Is that what we've come to? Cheering for conservative endorsements? And I don't mean to rain on our parade but for every 1 republican I know who is fed up with Bush......I know about 20 democrats fed up with the democrats...We have a long long way to go folks!!!

[Dr.Phool]

28. You're Right

But if there's one issue boiling up from the grassroots, it's Bush must be stopped! The Democrats I know, who are pissed off at Democrats, are pissed off at Bush enablers. They're mad because Al Gore ran such a weak, ineffectual campaign. In 2002 they all ran on a platform of how close they were to Bush. Daschle saved the airlines by bailing out the boardrooms and stockholders, but nothing for the laid off employees. Gephardt posing on an aircraft carrier- er- I mean in the Rose Garden for a photo-op with a creep to start a war.

Those are the fed-up Democrats, and Howard Dean aroused a fire in them. Every other Dem in the race, except for Kucinich and Sharpton,
would still be sucking up to the lying, election stealing bastard if Howard Dean didn't come out of the gate swinging a year ago.

Howard fired up, and mobilized a huge base, and I agree with him on almost all issues. The next President of the United States is Howard Dean!:kick:

[Scott Lee]

29. Don't you want their votes? Or do we have enough already?

Are you confident that the Democrats don't need any more votes, that we are set just fine?

Hrm.

[quaker bill]

26. Of the three conservatives in my office

All of the have said that they will not vote again for Bush*. Two have said they will likely vote for Dean the other is more likely to just stay home or vote libertarian.

All three voted and were Bush* supporters in 2000.

Interestingly all of them actually have no problem with the war. It is the lying, no bid contracts to his buddies, free spending, and the huge budget deficits that have changed their minds. More curious than this is that they are caucasian Southern Baptists, regular church goers and live in the south.

There is something to the phenomena this author has noticed.

[Dr.Phool]

31. My wife

is very much pro-life. It's something we don't talk about at home, because we want to stay married. But I'm pro choice.

She's scared to death of Bush. Doesn't like anything he's doing, but can't vote for a Dem because the abortion issue is SO important to her. The only good thing in the equation, is she's at least a neutralized Republican vote. Thats almost a Democratic vote.

[polpilot]

56. Same here. Bush supporters are scared of what he's done. Fox can

only carry Bush so far. These Bush supporters' sons & daughters have been sent to their deaths by the lying, greedy Bushwhores. THAT IS HARD TO IGNORE.

Dean '04...

[jburton]

34. There's a whole segment of voters out there

There are several people I know who fit the following profile:

1. Voted for Bush*
2. Lost money (some in stocks, some in jobs)
3. Don't give a shit about abortion or other social issues.
4. Recall that they did much better during Clinton years.
5. Generally in a "throw the bum out" kind of mood.

[cosmicdot]

36. now, if we can insure a paper trail ... an honest election

hopefully, common sense will override our differences and be the common denominator ... focusing the Big Picture ... to save our country ... our democratic republic ...

it's going to be a bumpy ride

[carolinayellowdog]

37. My Republican uncle at dinner today

REALLY surprised me. He, his son, son-in law (military officer) and my mother and I were discussing the next election. My cousin and his dad both voted for Dubya last time, but my uncle said "I know who I'm voting for this year" and proceeded to explain that it was anybody but Bush. This uncle has always voted Republican, but said Dubya's damn-the-torpedos, full speed ahead attitude has turned him off completely. He was disgusted by the missing WMDs, the swaggering bully this country has become on the world stage, etc. and was adamant that he'd never vote for Bush again. (The most passionate words I'd ever heard from my laid back, 85 year old uncle.)

My cousin-in-law said that this admin was the most nakedly profiteering, corrupt gang he could recall. But when I said that this admin was the most stupid, incompetent and evil in our history, he took exception to the evil part.(?) Still, I don't think he'd vote for Shrub in a million years.

The score in this small Southern family gathering has shifted in favor of the Dem nominee, and it gave me hope that 2004 will end much better than it is beginning.

[Scott Lee]

38. Awesome news.

I am hearing more and more of these stories. If the Dean campaign doesn't pick up on this, or is already working it, I'm gonna knock heads.

[ozone_man]

39. This describes well the appeal to conservatives that Dean has.

A lot of them are disappointed with Bush for deficit spending, needless wars, loss of jobs, gutting of America. There comes a point where it is more of a take back the country movement and less a partisan movement. Dean's got that Yankee common sense at a time when it sorely missed. Many people just want the country back and restore constitutional rights like we originally had.

<snip>
That makes me shake my head: Saddam’s capture didn’t make America more safe from future terrorist attack, and it is a fact that no American really knows for certain that Osama bin Laden actually did orchestrate the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center. All we have is the word of the government on that. Honest-to-God, I really don’t know about that myself. Do you? Have you seen the evidence for yourself? No, I haven’t either… Think about it.

If Howard Dean embraces the American principle that a person is presumed innocent, doesn’t that make him credible and enhance his integrity in the public eye? It certainly does for me.
<snip>

[calimary]

47. Plus the fact that we are going to NEED votes from everywhere,

even conservatives, if we're gonna win this thing. Frankly, Dean has enough brownie points on "conservative" issues like the whole gun business and fiscal responsibility to appeal to them

And I am among those NOT upset with Dean for saying a person is innocent until proven guilty. Uh, excuse me, but isn't that the TRULY American system of justice? I realize that we're in the era of "shunt 'em off to Gitmo, no lawyers, no questions, no reading anybody no damned rights." But our system of justice is "innocent until proven guilty." And my saying that - does that make me an "Osama lover?" OF COURSE NOT!!! No more than it makes Dean an "Osama lover."

Note if you will some of the pundits now using the term "...sided with Saddam" to refer to ANYONE who A) opposed the war, B) wanted UN inspectors to stay in there and keep working, C) didn't want to go in unilaterally, and D) didn't want to send their troops into what looked like a quagmire in the making. Now, those countries and believers are being lambasted as "siding with Saddam." They did nothing of the kind. I have now heard this multiple times among right-wing talking heads. Somebody sent a memo out about this, no doubt. It's just too obvious a ploy. They'll try to say Dean "sided with Saddam," no doubt. And they'll be wrong. But Dean opponents here will probably eat it up with a spoon...

The fact is, we need votes from everywhere. Even better if we can make inroads in the various corners of bush country. Even better. The more we eat away at his support, the better for us. The more of his so-called believers we can lure away, the better. That's one less vote for him and more more for OUR GUY. I do NOT fear bringing conservatives into the fold. Enough of them and we're back in the White House, okay?

And isn't that the whole point here?

Do we want to be players again, and do we want to be winners again, and control the agenda again, or is it just SO DAMNED IMPORTANT to be ideologically pure that we relegate ourselves to playing off in some irrelevant corner by ourselves for the rest of our political lives?

[skaterkid]

40. Yep, Wordens a Conservative all right

And I'm the Easter Bunny.
From reading several of his posts I'd say he's another Dean lackey trying to convince the Repugs to vote for Dean.

[CTLawGuy]

42. I was at a new years party last night

I was talking to my right-libertarian friend who comes from a Republican family. He says he is voting for Dean, becuase he is upset Re: patriot act, bush's fiscal irresponsibility. And my friend was in favor of the war in iraq, so it's apparent that Dean's position on the war doesnt deter him.

[slinkerwink]

50. and that part's interesting!

Bush has managed to piss off a lot of people in his party....and that's good for us Dems! ;-)

[sangha]

44. Are you saying that Dean is the most conservative Dem candidate?

Dean just skirts their good graces close enough to grab the conservative anger vote.

If not, then why is Dean the one who "skirts their good graces"?

Bathe yourself in the irony that the votes that actualy put Howard Dean over the top may well come from the people that were scared to death of his party four years ago.

Irony? Did'ja ever hear the saying "You gotta dance with one that brung ya"?

If Dean gets elected because of the conservative vote, don't you think it might affect what he does in office, or are you assuming Dean only wants their vote once?

[janx]

51. Dean's base is still solidly Democratic.

.

And if non-dems vote for him, they're doing so because they support what he is promoting in the first place.

[Scott Lee]

52. Not by a Rocky Mountain mile

If not, then why is Dean the one who "skirts their good graces"?

Because he's not a failure of a pink tutu Democrat, who absolutely repel an average conservative. Dean is attractive enough to moderate conservatives that he could get their vote should their anger be great enough at Bushhole.

Unless, of course, the Democrats have enough votes and they surely don't need to court more.....is that what you are insinuating?


Irony? Did'ja ever hear the saying "You gotta dance with one that brung ya"?

Is that what Reagan did with the reagan democrats who helped vote him into office?

Um, no.

[liberalpragmatist]

45. Yeah, I posted the first article abt Dean that this guy wrote

I'm personally not a Dean supporter, but I like him and will actively support him if he's the nominee.

The first article, "President Howard Dean" is actually significantly more interesting and more complimentary of Dean. He says that, "for the first time in my life, I will vote for a Democrat, Howard Dean, to be my next president next November." He's VERY rightwing, and so is his publication. It is an open question whether we want supporters like that, but I say we can use whatever support we can get.

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/12/05/ar_carlworden.htm

"To the truly committed, truly Christian conservative, George W. Bush is a traitor, a completely phony Christian, and just another politician who placed his left hand on the Bible, raised his right hand to God, and swore to uphold and defend a Constitution he had every intention of violating – if the “situation” warranted it.

"If there is one thing that true conservatives share, it is their solid and unwavering conviction to do what is both lawful and right, both under the law, and in the eyes of our God. In that light, our current president is woefully unfaithful, and in fact, treasonous to our Constitution.

"A president who personally declares a United States citizen an enemy combatant, ineligible for legal counsel or to face his accusers and their evidence against him, even though he was arrested on U.S. soil and never carried a weapon against U.S. forces or their allies, is a domestic enemy of the people of the United States. True Christian conservatives understood that the moment he issued the order.

[Fleshdancer]

46. The neocons don't even see what they're doing

After watching the neocons in charge, it's clear they're too drunk on money and power to see what their actions are doing to the Republican Party. They're in a failing relationship with a large amount of conservatives but their too doped up to see it.

They expect every Republican to vote for Bush because the right wing radio and faux news has both the Democrats and the neocons convinced that conservatives would rather win the WH at all costs and remain loyal than to vote their conscience. They (and us too) expect ALL conservatives to hate all Democrats. We need to remember that hate radio and faux do NOT accurately represent most conservatives.

What do we do? We talk to them because their party isn't. Keep doing what you're doing...talk about it at work, with friends, with family. Convince them and then make sure they go to the polls next November.

[GOPBasher]

48. I don't agree with one thing.

The author says that Dean would get a whole bunch of red states just by opposing NAFTA and GATT. Well, I really, really wish that were true, but unfortunately I think that's way off. There's no way that one issue would trump all the social issues that gave the south to Bush last time: abortion, gay rights, church and state, etc. If we believe that, it's wishful thinking. That would be great, but come one, does anyone really believe that?

As far as guns, I think the author is absolutely right. I think being pro-gun would really help in those states. Although I favor more gun control, that is one issue I can definately compromise to get the white house; guns, to me, is an issue of secondary importance.

[kodi]

49. good news, i've seen it too with many middle class republicans

i travel the south and call on chemical, plastics, and textile execs and talk to top and middle management types who traditonally voted for republicans.

they all dislike bush's style of arrogance and bullying and what he has done to the economy, but what strikes me is that they dont trust the guy's honesty any more and think, as others have posted, that bush's blatant crony capitalism is sickening and a real threat to the country.

if we can force bush to say in public "I am not a crook" we can beat his sorry ass right back to his pig farm.

[molly]

54. I will bet you any amount of money that he WILL NOT

[Scott Lee]

55. If wishes were fishes....

you know the rest.