Clark Responds To Governor Dean's Comments On The Economy

[neuvocat]

( I guess that means the gloves are coming off...)

I was surprised to hear that Governor Dean has once again attacked the economic policies of the Clinton years.

This isn't the first time he's done this. Last month, it was reported that Governor Dean wanted to distance himself from Bill Clinton's economic legacy when he called for "re-regulating" the economy. Now, in a speech he gave today, he essentially claimed that President Clinton didn't stand up for America's working families.

Did Howard Dean live through the same eight years as the rest of us?

more here...

http://clark04.com/press/release/134/

[slinkerwink]

1. woops-------primary fight!

Clinton really didn't---the tax code got so f*cked up during the Clinton years, and Dean wants to simplify the tax codes, besides deregulation of energy and media companies hasn't really helped us at all.

[mikehiggins]

2. I don't get your point

Clinton really didn't do what?

[slinkerwink]

3. really didn't stand up for working families

by deregulating corporations. Look at what happened to Enron, etc.

[SahaleArm]

6. Enron was a result of zero SEC enforcement by Bush - Link inside

Shell Game: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/146380_russell02.html

[DoctorMyEyes]

22. Clintons veto was overridden

in the house and the senate.

The 1995 Litigation Reform Act is what set the accountants free to make "clever books" for companies like enron and MCI. Clinton vetoed the damn thing. Can't blame him, the republicans ran over him and took a few dems along for the ride.

I remember it, not a single freakin republican voted no. Those bastards know how to toe a party line.

[AnnitaR]

4. Can someone please direct me to Dean's comments?

I've been on the road most all day today and I have no idea what it is that Dean said.

Anyone have a link?

[DFLforever]

15. Here's the link : Keeping the Promise of America

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11077

[LSK]

56. from the link

The only mention of clinton is in this paragraph:

"While Bill Clinton said that the era of big government is over, I believe we must enter a new era for the Democratic party – not one where we join Republicans and aim simply to limit the damage they inflict on working families."


That sounds to me like an attack more on the Dems who voted for the tax cuts than an attack on Clinton.

[DFLforever]

5. He not only lived - he governed and dealt with a state budget in the 90's

I think Dean probably knows as much about the economy of the time as anyone running today...and he's talked before about returning to the Clinton economy...seems they're all a bit nervous he might turn over a corporate applecart or two.

[SahaleArm]

8. Wasn't VT a beneficiarry of the Clinton economy?

It's easy to balance the budget when revenues are overflowing, just ask Gary Locke. Will he back off that as well? I doubt it.

[poskonig]

7. Clark's comments about regulation,

it being okay to send our high tech jobs to India, in context of his past, worry me.

[deminflorida]

9. Sorry, Once Again....He re-stated the issue...

he stated that the tax code needs to be reviewed for incentives that companies who are currently outsoursing are receiving. Then those incentives need to be repealed. I know it's an issue near/and dear to me, I work in I.T.

He reviewed and shifted his stance, more than I can say for Dean on the Middle Class Tax Hike he plans to impose on America.

[SahaleArm]

10. He was a little overzeleous when pointing out that the...

next set of high tech jobs will be driven by innovation. He's right of course - just look at the history of the job market. He did clarify this point as well; I guess he was listening to me:).

[poskonig]

11. I was doing well under the Clinton tax scheme.

I was making $15 an hour in 2000 with lots of overtime, and decided to spend 5K and get trained in computer programming. It seemed reasonable at the time; there were jobs all over the place. Unfortunately, by the time I was finished, not only was the IT sector hemmoraging jobs, the old decent paying jobs were gone. Hence I had to pay this off while working a series of low paying, degrading McJobs. While this works out for the better in my case since I'm now working towards a different career path (I'm studying physics at UIC), I'm not thrilled about shipping American jobs overseas.

Additionally, if someone asked me if I would pay $300 bucks to have the Clinton economy back, my answer is hell yeah.

[SahaleArm]

12. BushCo is not interested in real economic growth, just...

rearranging figures to avoid the blame and running a war for profit economy.

[0rganism]

18. Middle class tax-hike? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now that's a laugher. The implication is Dean will pull a Reagan and raise taxes ONLY ON THE MIDDLE CLASS, and you damn well know it.

Dean's been pretty clear about wanting to return to a Clinton-era level of taxation. Since the middle class certainly hasn't gotten diddly shit since shrub went on his richman's tax cut spree, naming Dean's proposals a "Middle Class Tax Hike" is pure bullshit.

I've called bullshit for your candidate too, so no whining about how unfair it all is.

[SahaleArm]

20. Middle Class tax cuts like child care credit and expanding EIC...

Heck Kucinich expands it further: http://www.kucinich.us/issues/MEDIA_SUMMARY_OF_TAX_BILL.pdf

[Justice]

23. His Stance Was Consistent Thru-Out

Clark has always said (even before he made the comment about software jobs) that the tax code needs to be reviewed to delete incentives to outsource overseas and to add incentives to hire and keep jobs in teh US. This was not a new stance -- his point about software jobs was just that it is hard to get the cows back in the barn once they get out. He was being a realist - it will be hard.

People get focused on one sentence and leave out the full story!

[truthspeaker]

54. repealing that $300 cut isn't much of a hike

But I agree, he should promise to only repeal the cuts for people with incomes higher than, say, $500K.

[ibegurpard]

13. The economic policies of the Clinton years also gave us

The Telecommunications Act of 1996 which allowed all of the media consolidation that has fucked Democrats over. Real forward-thinking, that one. I have my problems with Clinton but all-in-all he wasn't too bad. However, I really hope Clark isn't criticizing talk about regulation because that is a total red flag to me. De-regulation has been bad, bad, bad for the consumer in the long run for almost every industry it has happened to.

[SahaleArm]

14. Bush FCC chair Michael Powell eliminated the "dual network" rule...

April 20, 2001: http://www.fair.org/activism/cross-ownership.html

Clinton can be blamed for many things but there were pros and cons making to making the Bells competitive. The one thing that the government failed to do was create multiple vertical competitors in the local phone market. But wireless and internet telephony will kill the local phone market.

[w13rd0]

16. Clark is mistaken...

...the deregulation that began with Reagan (whom I certainly didn't vote for) and continued thru Clinton and proceeds at breakneck speeds under Junior, has been a disaster for the concept of an informed public engaged in civic responsibilities. We've abdicated our choices to a few large concentrated corporations that feed us pablum, a diet increasingly high in empty calories and free of any real substance. Perhaps that is the kind of world some are more comfortable with...

[KittyWampus]

42. Regarding The Media Clark Has Mentioned Going Back To Pre-Reagan Standards

same with strengthening environmental standards...

So you aren't well informed...

[BootinUp]

17. I read maybe 50% of the speech (gimme a break its a long one)

snip.....

Some Democrats have accepted the Republican notion that the Social Contract cannot be preserved, let alone made stronger.

While Bill Clinton said that the era of big government is over, I believe we must enter a new era for the Democratic party – not one where we join Republicans and aim simply to limit the damage they inflict on working families.

snip.....

The biggest lie that candidates like me tell people like you is, “Elect me, and I’ll solve all your problems”. The truth is -- you have the power to change this country.

You have the power to write a new social contract that keeps the promise of America.

And you have the power to take our country back and take back the White House in 2004.

..............

I can see how his rhetoric fires up the more activist part of the democrats. I didn't include the part where he indicated a major tax hike on corporations. Unfortunately, it ain't gonna play well with the electorate as a whole, I don't care what anyone says. Americans want jobs, not tax hikes. The fact is that not enough democrats are paying attention to the primaries. And they are going to wonder why we picked Dean come November and another 4 years of the chimp.

There is so little substance in Deans speech. What exactly are we voting for if we vote for him?

[SahaleArm]

19. As you know the devil lies in the details.

The speech is high on the rhetoric, definitely plays well to the unions. Now on to those substance of the New Social Contract...

(1) Access to affordable health care (modified insurance-based)

(2) Quality child care (pre-K)

(3) Increase College Loans and Grants

(4) Ensure solvency of Social Security

(5) Corporate Reform
- Separate Board From Executives
- Close "Bermuda" Loophole

(6) Taxes
- Simplify the tax code
- Repeal the Estate Tax

(7) Balance the Budget

So the question remains, where's the substance?

[KittyWampus]

43. "Simplify Tax Code"- Could Mean A Flat Tax Which Is Considered Regressive

But of course, Dean spews out nonspecific rhetoric and his supporters OH and AH!

[robbedvoter]

21. "Young people didn't have a reason to be excited about a candidate

since 1968" - dean at the Florida convention Forum. It's a good thing Gore missed that one, and I am sure the fact comes as news to both Clinton and Carter...

[Mz Pip]

37. Yeah,

and look what that "excitement" gave us. Nixon.

MzPip
:dem:

[slinkerwink]

24. this proves to me that Clark's of the corporations, by the corporations,..

and for the corporations.

[BootinUp]

25. what evidence did you use?

There is none!

And I noticed you had nothing to say about Dean's record talked about in this thread linked below. Why is that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=887431

[slinkerwink]

26. oh, Clark was a lobbyist for Axicom

that's a big corporation that takes the list of names of EVERYONE in America for the Patroit Act.

Also, and Clark supports deregulation which screams that he's in the pocket of corporations.

In response to your linked thread:

The vision to bring this industry to Vermont was born in the 70's, before Dean even came to Vermont. The law that enabled and encouraged this was passed 11 years before Dean became governor. The industry was very strong right from the start and was very well rooted long, long before Dean became Governor. The ONLY thing Dean can legitimately be criticized over on this is that he obviously would rather have Vermont and a US state benefit from a thriving business that is always going to exist than having Bermuda or the Caymans benefit from it. At least it's keeping SOME of one industry in the US instead of sending it offshore. What, pray tell, is so wrong about that?

[eileen_d]

29. It must be fun to throw lines like that out

without any documentation.

You're much better at supporting Dean than you are at slamming Clark. I suggest you stick to the former.

[Gloria]

40. I believe Clark wants laws on the books ENFORCED....because

there's been a whole lot of fudging going on the last 3 years esp. De-regulaton cannot be unfettered.

Same thing with the environment...enforce the damned laws....

[mikehiggins]

50. Heh, you are easily convinced

but you are just oversimplifying.

In 1000 hours the voting will start. Then we will begin to see the directions the 2004 campaign will take.

I am 172% in favor of General Clark but if Dean is the nominee I expect we'll find ourselves working on the same side of the street, just as we will if Clark gets the nod.

Most everyone here is in the same boat.

That's why the Democratic party can be such fun at times.

[Renew Deal]

53. Is that what they told you at the Dean blog?

:shrug:

[HFishbine]

27. Clark is unelectable

precisely because he has no experience on economic matters.

[eileen_d]

30. Do you really think he got as high up in the military

as he did without dabbling (to say the least) in economic affairs? Try again.

"He also earned a Master's Degree in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics from Oxford University, where he was a Rhodes Scholar."
http://clark04.com/about/

[HFishbine]

31. "Clark '04: He's dabbled in the economy"

Clark is unelectable.

[eileen_d]

32. I was being facetious

when I used the word dabbled. Not surprising that it went right over your head.

Thanks DU! Without you I would ignore Dean. Now I hate his ass.

[HFishbine]

35. Two Words

President Dean.

[TexasPatriot]

65. what's disturbing

is Dean's supporters have this effect on hard-core ABB types... imagine how they'll play out in the real world. I know the Deaniacs can be annoying as hell at times, but remember compared to the number of likely voters in the election all of the partisans at this point are fringe.
Bush* is worse.

[BootinUp]

36. Deans credentials are irreproachable right

Did you think that publishing a wealth of issue papers since September is easy? Maybe you haven't seen them: www.clark04.com/issues

On Dean: Must I go further into the small state in a boom economy subject? Or can we leave it there.

[HFishbine]

38. Two Words

Ghost writers.

[mikehiggins]

55. Oh my god! Do you mean candidates don't write their own

policy papers, maybe in charcoal on brown paper bags?

Here's four more words for you to consider:

President Dean
Hardly likely

less than 1000 hours to go

[SaintLouisBlues]

57. Running Vermont, that economic powerhouse

could also be called dabbling

[Phelan]

41. Yeah a Masters in Economics from Oxford, everybody has one these days...

[mikehiggins]

51. Same is true about Arnold and Michael Bloomberg and, oh yeah, Ike

Unelectable means he can't get enough votes to win.

He's got mine. That's a start.

If there are a lot of people out there like me, then he's electable.

I suspect there are.

[Larkspur]

62. Clark doesn't have my vote

but Dean has my vote, my dollars, and my enthusiasm. Dean built his campaign with people like me -- those who like elected civilian officials with proven Democratic records, a good history of governing wisely, and who have the backbone to reprimand the Establishment when they screw up on our behalf.

[LuminousX]

28. Has Clark caught Deanitis?

Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean ... lol - the strategy worked so well for Kerry.

[mikehiggins]

52. I don't know

How many times has Clark gone out of his way to criticise the Governor as opposed to commenting on issues he differs with him on? He clearly thinks Dean is wrong in regard to rejecting large parts of the programs that made the Clinton administration successful. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

He hasn't gone back to a twelve year old quote to try and paint a false picture of Dean's present stance.

[CMT]

33. actually what Dean is proposing is close to what Clinton did in '92

according to ABC News: The Note.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote.html

[Rose Siding]

34. Clark's using a dodge to defend de-regulation

Facts are optional

[Patriot_Spear]

39. Wesley is on a thin ice here...

I mean, he's never even won ONE election, much less had to draft a budget with legislators of both parties.

Wesley should stick to what he knows, when he goes off script like this, he comes off as a backseat driver (with only a learners permit).

[KittyWampus]

44. What Does Running For Office Have To Do With Understanding Economics?

And he most certainly DID have to deal with Budgets whilst Commanding NATO where he was responsible for hundresd of thousands of troops and their families health, education and well being. Clark did the same on Bases in the US.

He also worked in the Office of Budget and Management.

Dean, who is playing the "Protectionist" card is using rhetoric that goes against what Economic experts such as Krugman say... so I think I'll stick with the experts and not a Koch Brothers friendly Governor from a back water state like Vermont.

By the way, notice that Clark's entire Lifetime Record is one of EXCELLENCE.

Dean is one of Medicocrity... yes, the soft bigotry of low expectations...

[Patriot_Spear]

45. Hey, there's a big differece between Clark ordering privates around...

...and having to work with elected legislators to a common goal with differing agendas. And let's be CLear, he's never held an elected office in his life. That's not a slam, just a fact.

I like the guy.

[BootinUp]

48. But you have misrepresented Clark

He has worked with legislators when issues that affected those service people he was responsible for needed to be addressed. So I do not accept your characterization at all. And it was a slam.

cheers

[Patriot_Spear]

67. He wasn't a diplomat- he was an Officer subject to Congress...

As a member of the military he was subordinate to Congress. He reported to them, not the other way around.

[Jerseycoa]

46. Winning an election has nothing to do with it

As Special Assistant to the Director of Management and Budget, he certainly did work with legislators of both parties.

But do you seriously believe his career involved no budget planning, no testifying before Congress, no horsetrading on line items?

As Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, General Clark was in overall command of NATO’s military forces in Europe. Responsible for safeguarding an area extending from the northern tip of Norway to the eastern border of Turkey, he assured the peace, security and territorial integrity of the NATO member nations. In his position as SACEUR, General Clark was also the overall commander of the approximately 75,000 troops from 37 NATO and other nations participating in ongoing operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo. In 1999, General Clark commanded Operation Allied Force, the Alliance’s successful military action in response to the Kosovo crisis. This was NATO’s first major, combat action, and largest air operation in Europe since the Second World War.

Simultaneously, as Commander in Chief of U.S. European Command,General Clark commanded United States military activities in 89 countries and territories covering more than 13 million square miles of Europe, Africa and the Middle East and involving approximately 109,000 American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines.

How do you manage it without budget and Congress in the same breath?

[Patriot_Spear]

47. Look, let's be Honest here- Clark has never been elected to anything

All I'm saying that as candidate Clark, he is a completely unknown element.

Ordering a bunch of non-com's and jr officers to carry out your orders is quite a bit different from being an elected leader who must WORK with others to build consensus.

[BootinUp]

49. You sure seem

to have a problem with military officers. I think most people looking at Clark's credentials would think he is qualified.

I guess ordering staffers around at the gov's mansion is different though. /sarcasm

[Patriot_Spear]

59. Well, yes it is...

No I don't have problems with Officers.

As an enlisted man who went to college and graduated from the ROTC program- I've seen both sides of the fence and there are no mysteries for me about Officers or NCO's; I've had both E and an O in front of my rank designation.

As much as I hate to say it, a lot of the Officers I worked with had a semi-imperial attitude toward the troops- that might be too strong, but there was definately the implication that they were somehow 'better'. Just like when I was enlisted, there were all types of guys- but as a former 'regular joe' I never let it go to my head.

I met some Colonel's and General's I wouldn't follow into a bathroom, and I met some who could get you to walk through fire for them.

Clark was a great General, but as a politician he is an untested element.

That's all I meant.

[mikehiggins]

58. We know, Pat, we know

Clark never ran for office before.

If we were satisfied with the chances of the ELECTED officials now competing for the nomination nobody would give the General a second glance. Backing him is a BIG gamble but what would you have us do?

There is no need to keep going back over the shortcomings and virtues of the other candidates. It's been done to death, ad nauseum, on this site and numbers of others. We've all got blogs coming out of our ears (a decidedly unpleasant image) and megabytes of emails.

What we Clark supporters are left with in the end is the simple fact that few of us think the other guys (and one woman) can beat George Bush in November. We're pleased as punch with our guy, of course, and some of us go far overboard in singing his praises, but the fact remains that if we thought one of the others could do the job, why the hell go through all this trouble?

So far nothing I've seen from Dean or Kerry or Gephardt or any of the others convinces me they have any chance at all of beating George Bush. In that regard, Clark's lack of an attackable political record is one of his strongest points.

So, yeah. Clark isn't a politician and he has no record in public office. That's one reason we think he can win.

Ask Arnold S in California, or Mayor Bloomberg in NYC.

A mayor with no political record, a governor with no political record, a president with no political record. Seems like a natural progression to me.

[Tom Rinaldo]

60. Great Post. Loved the last line lol n/t

[Patriot_Spear]

61. Right. But he still hasn't won even one election.

It's a small point- but nonetheless a fact. I'm sure he'll do fine, he's got a record of success.

[Jerseycoa]

63. You're disingenuous

With the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he was responsible for worldwide politico-military affairs. He negotiated the Dayton Peace Accords. Far past "ordering a bunch of non-com's and jr officers to carry out your orders," although he did that, too, Clark was a high level diplomat. "Working with others and building consensus" - what would you call it maneuvering through NATO as SACEUR? If he can help build consensus among 37 different countries, including NATO, I don't see Congress presenting a particular problem.

[Patriot_Spear]

64. You're saying Clark alone negoitated the accord? That's disingeuous.

Please try to be more honest in your recitation of his accomplishments without stealing the creadit from others.

I honestly doubt Clark would say such a thing.

[TorchTheWitch]

66. this is another one i'm tired of

Ordering a bunch of non-com's and jr officers to carry out your orders is quite a bit different from being an elected leader who must WORK with others to build consensus.

Obviously you've never been to a military base. Aside from military personnel, there are the families of those personnel plus all the civilian workers. About 60% of military personnel are married, therefore, the health and welfare Clark was responsible for encompased those family members as well as a perponderance of civilian workers. I grew up on military bases. My dad was in the military, but I assure you, my mother, my 4 brothers, 2 sisters and I were NOT military, and we certainly were not ordered about. The kids in the base schools were not military... they were KIDS. The civilian workers who repaired roads, built buildings, provided laundry, food, day care, health services, entertainment, etc. were civilians. Even the people that maintained the airstrip were civilian workers.

Contrary to popular belief here, military personnel are human beings with the same domestic needs and domestic problems that non-military folks have. Also contrary to popular belief here, military bases are not some bizzaro world where everyone on the base is military and they have to just deal with whatever the commander says and suck it up. When I moved out on my own I certainly didn't have any culture shock moving to an ordinary town as there is not much difference between living on base and living in an ordinary town... except living on base there's a wider variety of ethnicity, culture, religion and languages that are sadly lacking in most ordinary towns.

[Patriot_Spear]

68. Well since you started out wrong, you'll have to rethink your post.

Sorry, bad assumption only make you look either uninformed or foolish, or both.

Please don't tell me what I have and haven't done.