The Michigan and Florida situations are resolved

[DesEtoiles]

Why does the Clinton campaign keep acting like this is an open issue?

They were told they would be stripped of delegates for holding a primary before Feb. 5.

They held their primaries before Feb. 5, and they were stripped of delegates.

That is the resolution. It is done.

[ossman]

1. and they will be immediately seated when Obama is crowned winner. Easy as that.

[OzarkDem]

2. Have their votes been counted?

or are they still disenfranchised? Has a resolution been reached that allows the Dems in those states to have their votes counted?

[ossman]

7. They were counted. An Hill almost lost to undecided.

[OzarkDem]

47. Got a link?

[ossman]

85. Yea. Hillary 55% undecided 45% its public results idiot.

[Swamp Rat]

19. They ALL should be counted.

It is unfair to allow the GOP to disenfranchise FL and MI voters (it was their goddamn tactics that caused this, and some Dems are allowing it to happen) .

[DrDan]

50. you are absolutely correct, Swamp Rat

completely unfair. Punish the leaders if the DNC likes - but do not disenfranchise voters.

[Swamp Rat]

53. There MUST BE A SOLUTION AT CONVENTION that includes FL and MI!!!

Otherwise, the Democratic Party will be conceding to the GOP by allowing them to dictate the future of the party, as well as disenfranchising millions of voters, which will also hurt party unity.

Are we gonna just let GOP thugs rule our party?!?

NO WAY JOSÉ!!!

[DrDan]

55. and I think that will happen

Dean realizes he needs to bring the party together. And he can't when several million voters are disenfranchised.

[Vinca]

31. You mean disenfranchised in the same way Hillary must

disenfranchise Obama voters to win the nomination? Oh, wait, I forgot. It's only disenfranchisement when it hurts her. No one has ever explained why Hillary signed the DNC agreement way back when. It was just as much disenfranchisement then as it is now. Were you outraged back then? I was, but I was told to get over it, it had to be done to put my small state of New Hampshire in its place.

[baldguy]

73. They disenfrachised themselves.

The state legislatures and the state parties CHOSE to disregard the rules they had agreed to.

[Zhade]

88. They were never disenfranchised, since there's no right to vote in primaries.

NT!

[JVS]

96. Yes they have been counted. And in accordance with the DNC rules, they have no weight in terms of..

delegates.

[gateley]

3. What about the voters?

They were caught in the middle of all of this. There are RULES, then there's JUSTICE. What about their rights?

[ossman]

4. I voted. My rights are fine and dandy. Thanks for your concern.

[gateley]

8. Sorry I asked.

:eyes:

[ossman]

10. Out of staters seem to be more faux outraged than MI residents.

[Demeter]

18. Suffering From Outrage Exhaustion After 7 Years of Depression in Michigan

"Your leader in unemployment and emigration to other states!"

[ossman]

21. exactely. and we are not voting gop in 08. beleive it.

[gateley]

45. I'm not "faux" outraged -

I was thinking how I'd feel if I lived there, that's all.

[DesEtoiles]

5. talk to your state parties about that. You can vote in the General.

[DrDan]

29. yes - and it will not be for the nominee of the DNC

obviously not for a repub . . .

but I will vote - and not for the DNC's choice . .

they (the DNC and the state leaders) have decided to disenfranchise me - so where I stand in the party is clear. And I shall vote accordingly. And am encouraging others to do likewise.

[Alexander]

49. In that case, enjoy the short rest of your stay here at DU.

[DrDan]

51. you are incorrect

read the rules.

DU does not support any particular party - but Democratic ideals. Exactly what I am doing.

[DrDan]

52. read rule 2

"Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates."

I will certainly vote for a Democrat. And I support progressive ideals - equal treatment for all - not equal treatment for 48 states and the other 2 can move to the back of the bus.

[Capn Sunshine]

81. You disenfranchised yourself

By not being more proactive with your state leaders , whom you could have dumped en masse. You CHOSE this situation because you wanted to believe what they told you.

This has nothing to do with the DNC. It has EVERYTHING to do with State party leadership, and no push-back from ground level..

[DrDan]

and exactly how do you know how proactive I have been?

You are certainly free with your assumptions . . . perhaps you should question more and accuse less.

[DrDan]

93. and exactly how do you know how proactive I have been?

You are certainly free with your assumptions . . . perhaps you should question more and accuse less.

[Eurobabe]

94. Exactly. n/t

[EFerrari]

6. The voters need to take it up with their state party officials.

They tried to bring the elections early to benefit Clinton and against the rules.

The state party officials failed in their jobs, big time.

[Demeter]

13. Blatant Abuse of Power by DLC Members at State Level

Including our own Governor Jennifer Granholm, who should have known better, and the Dingells and Levins, who really get my goat....

[Tellurian]

42. Dingells is a DNC member not DLC..

A quick review of why Michigan moved up its primary date:

In 2000, Representative Dingell and Senator Carl Levin went to the DNC to discuss moving up the date for the Michigan Primary. Both were promised by the DNC, the issue would be addressed. In 2003, Carl Levin threatened to move up the date of the Michigan Primary to coincide with the New Hampshire Primary. Carl was talked out of it by the Democratic National Committee and he relented. Both Dingell and Levin were promised a commission would be established to review adding states to the earlier part of the campaign. Out of the commission study and in 2007, came a Nevada Caucus and a South Carolina Primary. While not happy, Michigan agreed to keep their February 9th date as long as New Hampshire and Iowa did not move their dates up. When New Hampshire moved their primary date up, the Michigan legislature moved its date to January 15th.

As Rep. John Dingell stated:

"We tried to stay within the rules"

"We tried. But Iowa and New Hampshire have a hold on the whole thing. What you have with Florida and Michigan are two states who've said, Enough is enough!"

http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/thread/1025388.aspx

[MichiganVote]

54. And you are one of the very few to publish the truth. Not that too many around here care.

AND...there have been no repercussions for NH or Iowa.

[Tellurian]

57. Thank You.. The BO supporters thrive on the rumor mill

it gets to the point, they have no idea what they are talking about because they are too lazy to do the research to find the Truth.. Much easier to say what they are told to say. And if you get 10 people are saying the same thing...it MUST be True!

[MichiganVote]

58. Most of it seems to be political spin for the candidate of their choice.

But I live here and I have been reading and following the whole thing for months.

[Tellurian]

59. I feel badly for Michigan.. If any state needs their votes counted it's yours!

sorry! Hopefully, there will be a happy ending to this travesty..

[MichiganVote]

68. Well thank you. Its like a spin of the top around here as to who is more to blame...

or who deserves the sympathy. As far as I'm concerned the primary was legit and I voted for the most legit candidate on the ballot. Had Edwards or Obama left their names on the ballot, I would have had a three way choice in place of a one way choice.

But that's what was left so that's what I did. So far on this board the fact that I voted has been considered "stupid", "narrow minded", "bigoted" and "useless". And those are the nice things I've been told.

Michigan voters are well past the point of expecting help from the DNC or the GOP. As a state that is just barely surviving the global economy trade practices, we're not even in a foul mood anymore.

People here largely consider any politician in or out of this state as a potential or probable asshole.

So whether it's this asshole or that asshole that people vote for doesn't seem to make much difference anymore. There will be some surprises for each party come November.

[Tyler Durden]

102. Coming off the boycott, from a fellow Michigan Voter:

You could not be more right. The rank and file is furious about this, and no amount of "...but you broke the RULES..." CHANGES the fact that we were WITHIN the letter of the rules by letting NH and IA have their hissyfit about going first like some sort of middle school brats.

ANYONE who reads that whole document (and few will; more content with their finger pointing) will realize Michigan got royally screwed.

The Great Lake State has voted for more Republicans since Roosevelt than Democrats, and those who forget that they still need our support do so at their peril: this is much more a MAGENTA state than blue or even PURPLE.

[DrDan]

32. as did Dean and the DNC

there should NEVER have been a rule that disenfranchised voters!!!!!

Punish the state leaders - who cares. But do not take away the votes of the D-voters.

[EFerrari]

41. When you don't hold your leaders accountable, this is what happens.

The state leaders were trying to game the system. That's all.

[DrDan]

48. I absolutely hold them accountable.

And I think it is perfectly fair for the DNC to "punish" them - the leaders. Withhold funding. Ban them from nat'l positions in hte party. But DO NOT disenfranchise the voters. That goes against the very foundations of the Democratic party charter - equality in voting.

[dogday]

97. It used to, did it not?

Now, I don't recognize the Party of the people... I sit on this fence not liking either candidate and what they are doing, but I do like what you said....

[DrDan]

99. I really do not like to see how the Democratic principles of

equality for all is neglected here. There are too many DUers who are willing to ignore the basic foundations of the party if their candidate benefits. I think all votes should count - regardless of how they fall out. Rules established that put that basic principle in jeopardy should never bave gone forward.

[thoughtcrime1984]

36. YES! Hillary cronies tried to game the elections by moving them up

As Obama became more well known, he was guaranteed to eat into her giant leads that were due to name-recognition. She would've wanted them all on Jan.3 if she had her say in the matter, obviously.

[DrDan]

I think you are all wet - but . . . that said, I would think you should

be concerned about loss of democratic votes due to this disenfranchisement. I know for a fact there are many, many voters in Florida upset about being disenfranchised, and will not vote or will vote for McCain.

I will not be voting for hte nominee of the DNC - I won't vote for repub - could never do that. But will vote for my initial choice. I am also encouraging others in Florida to do similarly.

[thoughtcrime1984]

71. Many think I am right

And your anger is misplaced. Your Democratic State legislators are the ones to take the wrath out on.

[DrDan]

72. and I shall do so during the next election cycle

and you may be right - who knows right now. I just don't think so.

[fadedrose]

90. No, they succeeded in casting doubt on Obama's lead.......

They screwed their constituents all by themselves but made a big issue of blaming Obama.

[TahitiNut]

11. At least one of the candidates uses "Support The Voters" almost exactly like ...

... Cheney/Bush use "Support The Troops" for their own narrow self-interests.

As far as Michigan is concerned, it's a FUBAR ... and there's NOTHING that can undo it. The Democrats, state and national, sacrificed Michigan for the sake of political infighting. Rather than face the people suffering the greatest unemployment rate and the highest rate of home foreclosures ... and spend a little of that campaign money in the state that could use the help ... they ran like opportunists. Only Dennis Kucinich had the class and principles to visit. The shift in votes to the GOP is as much as 5% as a result.

Appalling.

[ossman]

17. If you think MI will vote GOP in Nov you are crazy. We are the worst off state

in everything... unemployment, foreclosures, etc..

[TahitiNut]

22. I said the state would vote 5% MORE GOP as a result.

Whether or not that's enough for a GOP win, only time will tell. We'll see, won't we? After all, this is the state that voted Engler in for 12 years.

[ossman]

23. were do you get that % from?

[TahitiNut]

33. Did you notice the voter turnout?

868,002 (R)
592,261 (D)
1,481,761 (Total)

[ossman]

46. Do you know how many BO supporters or other Dem sat at home?

Quite a bit. Dem turnout will more than make up that 5%

[Tyler Durden]

103. You live in Flint? Pontiac? Lansing?

Cities like that, including smaller ones like Owosso, Grand Blanc, Holly all have taken it in the ass for years now. We weren't doing so hot when Clinton was in: better, but not great.

The rest of the country let us sink, and now the DNC/DLC piles on the bandwagon? I'd suggest that if the Nominee, whether Obama or Clinton, doesn't spend BEAUCOUP time in Michigan promising to get us on track again, all McCain will have to do is come in and make a couple of loud promises, and there goes Michigan.

You are kidding yourself, and I hope the Democratic Party Nominee does not do the same: Michigan at this point is a HUGE question mark.

[Swamp Rat]

24. "The Democrats, state and national, sacrificed Michigan for the sake of political infighting."

Damn straight! What a fucking disgrace!... Michigan, of all places! :grr:

FUCKING STUPID AS HELL!!!
:grr:
:grr:
:grr:
:grr:

[DrDan]

38. absolutely - I have been saying the same thing about Florida

nothing but a power-grab between the nat'l and state party leaders . . . and the voters became the pawns in this power-grabbing frenzy.

[high density]

26. I guess it makes it clear the voters need to choose better state party leaders and legislators

48 out of 50 states (96%) plus a few other territories somehow figured out how to stay inside the rules.

These circular arguments about FL and MI are not going anywhere. I can't believe it's March 30 and this issue is still being debated as if there's something that can be changed about it. I know this benefits the Clinton side but I really wish they'd come back to reality and notice that no amount of second-chance voting in FL or MI is going to substantially change the pledged delegate count.

[Obamanaut]

64. I voted (Fla). I knew it wouldn't count, but there was a property

tax amendment to be decided. Now, come November I'll put a check mark by ANY incumbent who is seeking reelection. The legislators did this.

[WilyWondr]

101. It is called a representative democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principles of popular sovereignty by the people's representatives. The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives—i.e., not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances.

The people of Florida and Michigan changed the date of the primary through their state representatives. This is how a representative democracy works.

If the representatives did not follow the will of their constituents their would be some recall elections being called for....but I have heard of none.

[suston96]

9. Nothing was resolved. The Democratic Party Charter was violated by the DNC....

Over 2 million Democrats have been disenfranchised by the DNC.

It is NOT done. It will be done in November.

[Hawkeye-X]

14. DNC had nothing to do with it.

Howard Dean offered them an do-over, and both state parties couldn't come up with a solution in time, and it's their own fault for pushing the primaries so early to violate the DNC rules. The rules committee sanctioned MI and FL for that, and took away their delegates. It will be resolved in June once Obama is a confirmed eventual nominee, AND when the credentials committee meet.

Hawkeye-X

[Tellurian]

27. Not accurate.. Obama didn't want a revote.. Clinton did..

Clintons even offered to split the expense..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5318453

[Hawkeye-X]

37. As usual, you are misinformed.

One of the key legislator in Michigan who is an Obama ally said that there wasn't simply enough time or money to do the do-over. Even if the Clinton supporters were willing to split the expenses, there was an issue of whether or not the voters were eligible to vote again because some of them crossed over to vote Republican (because they had no choice), so it would be an ardent and time-consuming process that was untenable. They needed to have it done by June, but it was simply not possible. That's why you are wrong about Obama again. Do better research next time, instead of pulling shit outta your ass, Tellurian.

Hawkeye-X

[Tellurian]

62. Thats BULL... The window was still open 3 weeks ago..Read the OP..

It's in there.. and if thats not enough, there is more info out there to verify what I said..

Carville was on MTP 3-4 weeks ago and made the announcement publicly, the Clintons were ready to put the money up for the revotes.. Obama camp kept stalling until that window closed, then they said, NO!

[Hawkeye-X]

69. And how would you handle over 1 million voters in 3 weeks?

Think about it, Tellurian. And I don't trust Carville.

[wileedog]

83. A candidate financed election?

That doesn't send any alarm bells ringing in anyone's heads?

[HockeyMom]

12. I am now in Florida

I am not surprised. I totally expected this. It might even happen in November.

[Jensen]

15. It is what it is...we were told of the consequences and we did it anyway

I know of many that didn't have a interest in the housing homestead bill that was passed and did not vote since they understood that the primary election votes would not count. What will you do about those people???? Every action has a consequence.

[UALRBSofL]

16. Then by all means don't worry what Hillary has to say about it

If it is don't why do you keep spreading gossip about it like an ole hen? :rofl:

[ORDem]

20. One reason and one reason only, and it has nothing to do with disenfranchisement.

HRC is simply trying to create an illusion. The illusion is based on uncertainty, fear, doubt, none of which are positive attributes. As long as she maintains uncertainty with regard to MI and FL, she maintains an illusion that she has some path to the nomination.

:dem:

[UALRBSofL]

25. So what? You sure can't shut her up.

:crazy:

[Jensen]

63. What is wrong is that we are unwilling to take responsibilities for our own actions...

I do not want to shut her up but I don't want another President that is belly aching for their actions.
Senator Hillary, as well as the Florida and Michigan voters knew what would happen if they moved up their date and did it anyhow. The Senator is not worry about me, the voter, she is fighting due to the fact she is not winning, if she were FL and MI would be someone else issue... NOT HERS!

[knixphan]

40. exactly.

[PoliticalAmazon]

43. HRC's = "Dead Zone"'s presidential candidate, Greg Stillson...

HRC's desperate embrace of Rove politics in this primary shows that she will do anything to get elected. I see her more and more as the Greg Stillson character (presidential candidate) in Stephen King's "The Dead Zone."

She's going to end up destroying the Democratic Party and her own political future.

[Zhade]

89. Nice analogy!

NT!

[terrell9584]

28. Okay, so when the Republican party runs ads in Michigan and Florida saying

"You're votes were not counted. The Democratic nominee won without your votes. Had you been allowed to vote, they might not be nominee. Will they really care about your state if they are elected, they fought tooth and nail to not have your votes count"

That will have real resilency in a state like Florida, where people are extra sensitive about having votes counted. In Michigan, it could be bad, because while Kerry and Gore won it, they didn't win it by much. You don't have to piss off that large of a section of the population to swing it.

Say what you will about Clinton, say she switched sides, but Clinton was the one actually saying, let the votes count as they are or have a new election. The Obama response has always been, split the delegates evenly. Thats his response, split the delegates easily. Why is so afraid of Florida & Michigan having new elections? Why is it that Obama supporters in both legislatures have consistently opposed revotes. Honest question.

If Michigan and Florida are stripped a deciding role, and Obama wins the nomination and there is a belief among non-Obama supporters in those two states that if they had been counted he would not be nominee then he will lose both states. Its no might, or could, or something we could overcome, it is simply, he will lose both states and so right off the bat we have ceded 44 electoral votes.

People don't always vote "economic interests", even when times are really bad. We can't just count on the fact that the country has gone to hell to sweep us in office. The economy was not all that good in 1984, but Reagan was fortunate enough to have Fritz Mondale for an opponent. Hart, Hollings, Askew and a few others all could have given him a run for his money.

This is going to be the fiercest presidential campaign in decades. It makes no sense to give the opponent a card they can usue right out of the gate

[ossman]

30. We are not that stupid. We know how it happened. Thanks for your opinion of Michiganders though.

[DrDan]

34. nope - that will not be the resolution

there will be a solution that brings Fla adn Mich into the convention.

[tandem5]

35. I agree. A party can come up with whatever rules they want

for picking a nominee. Some parties don't even canvass the electorate when choosing their candidate. I had just hoped the *Democratic* party followed the principles of its namesake. But clearly we have to all abide by the rules set ahead of time and that means we are going to have to lump it if the super delegates choose a candidate that's not the delegate or popular vote leader - we can always take it up with those party officials later - as it stands now its too late.

[DrDan]

44. No - it is not too late.

The party's charter calls for equality in voting. It goes on to state that rules cannot be adopted that violate the basic foundations of the charter. The "punishment" from this rule completely violates the basic charter of the party.

Fl adn Mich delegates have to be seated - and the votes counted.

To do otherwise will bring more division.

[tandem5]

76. I was trying to use irony to elicit some sort of rhetorical effect, but

I otherwise agree with you.

[MonkeyFunk]

39. Fortunately

I think Howard Dean is smarter than you. He knows it's not resolved, and he's not going to throw away MI and FL in the general election.

[jillan]

56. So we don't care about the voters?

[backscatter712]

61. Technically, the ultimate responsibility is on FL and MI voters.

They elected the dumbasses to their legislatures who chose to break DNC rules.

If you trace the chain of responsibility to its final end, its the voters of FL and MI who are responsible for disenfranchising themselves. My recommendation to them would be to assemble en-masse at their state capitol buildings, with plenty of tar and feathers for the shitheads they elected.

[backscatter712]

60. Yep. MI and FL brought this on themselves.

They had plenty of warning. They had several chances to change their primary dates. There were endless discussions with the FL and MI legislatures. And they chose to break the rules. Even the Democrats chose to break the rules.

So now, they alone are responsible for the consequences. Not the DNC, and not Dean.

As far as I'm concerned, the existing resolution to the FL and MI problem is quite satisfactory.

[dailykoff]

65. That's well put.

Like Florida is ever going to be anything but a swamp anyway, sorry Floridians, but how many times has FL blown it? I imagine Michigan will go for Obama in November if the votes are counted fairly.

[BlooInBloo]

66. Nothing is resolved unless Clinton says so. Nothing matters unless Clinton says so...

.... How did you miss the memo?

[caledesi]

67. Tampa here agrees. NT

[stop the bleeding]

74. Yep

:beer:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

70. Whoever controls the rules committee

will determine if it is done or not.

Me, I hope it's done. For MI, no re-do, no delegates, nothing. Dean should stick to his guns.

We're still allowed to vote in November, right?
:)

[Cha]

75. Why does hilary do anything?

She loves to whine..and throw cheeze balls.

[DUyellow]

77. i find that most of the people in florida are not the people who are upset by this...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. you had better read some FL papers...my family members are very upset

[DrDan]

95. I think you are wrong

I live in the Daytona Beach area - and can assure you there are PLENTY of people uset around here.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

78. and FL and MI are crucial to us winning back the WH in Nov...they will stay home now

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

80. I don't think so

I don't know anyone (in MI) who's very pissed off about all this. Certainly not to the point of staying home or voting repub. Most seem to be somewhere between "disappointed" and "amused".

I think we'll be fine in Nov. Unless someone in Lansing moves the G.E. to October. Then we're screwn.

[wileedog]

84. They are going to protest their lack of a right to vote by.... not voting?

[Rubiconski2009]

82. If you want the people’s voice to be heard, then all you have to do is listen. They’ve spoken.

This race is over, and Hillary has lost. Wake up, people.

[nyccitizen]

86. After the primaries are over, it will be immediately apparent ML and FL will be seated. Here's why:

Right now Obama leads by 132 total delegates. MI and FL would net Hillary a total of 111 delegates (mainly because Obama didn't get a single delegate in MI). I predict that when the primaries are over and Obama still has a significant pledged delegate lead, the majority of the remaining superdelegates will shift to Obama as the winner of the primaries, and his overall lead will exceed 111 delegates, making an as-is seating possible. That way the party can say that MI and FL had their voices heard, but the penalty for moving their primaries earlier is that they were the *last*, not the first, states to weigh in on the process, which should prevent future disobediance.

Obama's victory without a single delegate from MI will make his victory undeniable.

[Zhade]

87. "Why does the clinton campaign keep acting like this is an open issue?" Wishful thinking.

NT!

[Tatiana]

91. There were other states that wanted to jump ahead as well.

They settled for the front-loaded Feb. 5th "Super Tuesday" date to STAY WITHIN THE RULES.

Why couldn't Florida or Michigan? The irony of all this is that they lost out on a ton of advertising $$$ and local revenue generated by campaigning that could have helped their economy (especially Michigan's) and they would have retained enormous significance if they had KEPT THEIR ORIGINAL PRIMARY DATES.

This is the fault of the Democratic leadership in those states. And now everyone else is expected to clean up the mess made by those selfish leaders. Hillary thinks she will take this to the credentials committee and get the delegates seated when 25 of those members are appointed by Gov. Dean and the other members are represented by the states... 48 states which FOLLOWED THE RULES and at least 30 states which Obama will have won by then (if not more). Do you think they are going to support MI and FL breaking the rules by jumping ahead when they themselves agreed to abide by the rules?

Again, the math says this is a fight Hillary cannot win.

That said, I think Michigan should be allowed to have a caucus in June.

[Life Long Dem]

92. This amounts to crying because they can't break the rules.

Is that what Hillary plans on selling?

[davidpdx]

98. Even Donna Brazille said on This Week

That a Credentials Committee (CC) fight won't work. She stated that Dean appointed 25 members to the CC and all the other members are appointed by each state based on who one the state. The problem for Clinton is that Obama has won more states, thus would (if the trend continues) win more states and have more representatives on the CC.

[futureliveshere]

100. I think Barack will make the 'Grand Gesture' once he is well enough ahead. Prob after NC.