Dean said gay marriage issue made him "uncomfortable like everyone else"

[Zomby Woof]

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jun2000/news06_dean%20.htm

From 'Out In The Mountains' magazine, a Vermont publication:

OITM: When you finally announced your position, you said that gay marriage made you “uncomfortable like everyone else.” Can you clarify what you meant by that and specifically what about gay marriage makes you uncomfortable?

Dean: The truth is that it is the politics that made me uncomfortable. (Personally) I’m sure that I have the same hang-ups that lots of people have on the issue.


So, it's the politics that made you uncomfortable, Governor. Well, politics is your business Dr. Dean, so I am sorry you endured the hardship of signing the civil union bill into law because of that pesky VT Supreme Court. Then you say you have personal hang-ups, which seems admirably candid at first glance, but undermines blaming the politics. Which is it that makes you more uncomfortable, the politics or your prejudices? One or the other, Doctor. One or the other.


OITM: Supporters and opponents of the civil union legislation criticized your decision to the sign the bill in private. How did you come to make this decision?

Dean: The state was so divided and there was so much hatred. The majority wanted us to do one thing and the legislature did something else. I had said a long time ago that I was not going to do anything that was going to be “in your face.” The trouble with signing ceremonies is that sometimes they turn into we won and they didn’t. I don’t want to make that happen. We do really need to fundamentally bring the state back together again. We need to become one community. It doesn’t do anyone any good to have further divisions in the state. Had I to do all over again I would have signed it publicly (in front of cameras) but not had a signing ceremony.


So Dr. Dean went into the closet, so to speak, to bravely sign the bill into law. Interesting that he said he wanted to bring the state "back together again" when he is now running the most divisive primary campaign in modern Democratic Party history. He has NOT made national unity a theme of his campaign. It has a very strong 'us vs. them' motif, with rhetoric about "taking our country back". There IS a divide in this nation, and he pours salt on the wounds every day with his abrasive tactics and wrongful appropriation of Wellstone's mantle as the one representing "the Democratic wing of the Democratic party". Plus, those lying pamphlets about being the only anti-war candidate. Unity? From this campaign?

My favorite excerpt from this sorry interview:

OITM: Do you plan to attend Vermont’s Gay Pride celebration on June 17?

Dean: I’ve never attended Gay Pride because it always coincides with a big soccer tournament that my kids are in. They always invite me, and I always say no because it is always the day of the Tom Lawson tournament.


Whew!! Saved from being "uncomfortable" by his kids' soccer tournament!! The same reason he uses the soccer tournament as a dodge is the same reason he signed the bill in private. It has nothing to do with being magnaminous in victory. It has EVERYTHING to do with wanting to remain palatable to the discomforted middle. I am not saying that is wrong necessarily, but he should be honest about it. You can bet the interviewer saw right through all the dodges.

But he can't be honest. His lies flow richly out of his mouth like smooth and sweet Vermont maple syrup. It's a gift with him.

[Scott Lee]

1. Oh my GOD! The politics made him uncomfortable!

Clearly, we can't have a president like this. If they get uncomfortable with an issue, the terrorists have won.

Somebody help us!

[Clark Can WIN]

68. Huh......... my gay friends are comfortable with politics

But Dean's feeling "uncomfortable" about them makes them uncomfortable with Dean.

What a silly roundabout, eh?

[TLM]

90. I think what point that those attackign Dean want to avoid...

is that even though the issue made him personaly uncomfortable... he still stood up and fought for what was right.

[Monte Carlo]

2. So he's human, after all.

A politician, just like any other.

[corporatewhore]

3. again he lies Kucinich isnt uncomfortable

[Sean Reynolds]

4. Yeah, but Kucinich was uncomforetable with abortion.

So your point?

[Scott Lee]

7. I'm uncomfortable with powdered eggs, like everyone else.

And I would hope this issue will not derail the order of the known universe.

[jumptheshadow]

51. My partner and I are not "powdered eggs"

And our happy long-term commitment is a marriage.

Sorry if your candidate is "uncomfortable" with us.

We're "uncomfortable" with him, too, although we will back him if he's nominated.

We will try not to hold his supporters against him.

[TLM]

91. What is more important to you... the rights or the words?

Would you rather insist on "gay marriage" and get nothing but DOM laws like the one Gephardt supported... or call them civil unions and get the law passed?


Funny how the moderates often achieve more progress on progressive issues than the progressives.

Folks who insist on all or nothing politics should not be called progressives, because they never make any progress. They should be called procrastinating perfectionists.

[Brian_Expat]

109. As a gay man, I find people who bitch over "all or nothing" to be selfish

I want the rights and responsibilities right now. I don't care WHAT you call it, but I want to be equal in the United States. I want to be able to bring MY family to the USA someday legally -- something I cannot do now and may never be able to do if the purists who insist on "all or nothing" get their way. They cast off major allies over the term "marriage," which frankly doesn't mean all that much.

If I can never get "married," but get "civil partnerships" or "civil unions" instead, you won't see me complain. And chances are, if we get one of the latter two, "marriage" will follow in another ten years or so.

[pasadenaboy]

112. you are absolutely right

the key is moving in the right direction.

Don't ask Don't tell was progress when it was signed, now it is time to push further and get full acceptance of gays in the military. I think we can get that done now. Society is changing, and younger people are more enlightened. We couldn't have gotten it done 10 years ago.

Civil Unions would be progress right now. In 10 or 20 years, people won't even know the difference and call it marriage.

As long as things are going in the right direction, we will get equal rights for all in this country.

[Malikshah]

134. Yes! Don't let perfect get in the way of good

It's not an original statement--but it's one I've used to explain my reasoning behind civil unions over marriage.

I don't want to force religions to change--it's like trying to stem the tide.

Were we to force belief systems to think the way we think about ourselves we would be no better than those among them that want us to think like them. Convoluted? Not really if you think about it.

Civil unions are the best way to go.

[Brian_Expat]

135. Besides. . .

With civil unions for a decade or two, marriage will eventually incorporate us. You have to give society time to adjust to legally-recognized, stable gay families. Hell, you have to give a lot of GAYS time to adjust to legally-recognized, stable gay families.

[no name no slogan]

120. "states rights" vs. civil rights for EVERYONE

Dean has repeatedly said that he favors state law-based "civil unions" over nationwide marriage rights for GLBTs. Do you know what that means?

If you are gay couple, and live in a place like Alabama, you DO NOT have the same rights as another gay couple living in Vermont. You DO NOT have the right to inheritance or community property. Hell, you are not even considered a FAMILY in the eyes of the law.

In other words, you are STILL a second-class citizen in most states, and especially at the federal level.

The word "Civil Union" does not appear ONCE in any current laws. The word "Marriage" occurs in several places-- most importantly in the IRS code, where married people often get preferential treatment over singles.

Just think if the civil rights movement would have settled for a patchwork of state laws governing racial equality. If you were black and lived in Massachusetts, you could vote. But, if you were black and lived in Mississippi, you STILL wouldn't be able to vote.

Also, has ANYONE tried to pass a civil rights law for GLBT people before at a national level? So how can you possibly say that we should start "compromising", especially since we haven't even tried to pass what is our ideal law?

Most politicians save compromising for AFTER they have pursued every means to get what they truly desire. IMHO, Howard Dean comes pre-compromised. Why bother waging a fight for what's truly right when it's SO much easier to just agree to a watered-down "solution" that solves nothing?

Why have true civil rights for gays when we can "compromise" for "civil unions"?

Why have true universal health coverage for everybody when we can "compromise" and have a bunch of "insurance" plans that only enrich corporate America, but still fail to provide health care for all?

Why end a war that was wrong in the first place, when we can continue an unwanted occupation of a country that DOES NOT want us there, all in the guise of winning "peace with honor"?

Why should we accept the terms of surrender, when we haven't even started the battle?

[Brian_Expat]

121. Marriage is not a federal government role. . .

. . . outside of immigration rights and tax treatment, everything about marriage is a state thing.

Any "national" solution to gay marriage would require the federal government to broaden its powers over states. That's wrong.

The proper route to gay marriage across the country is a test case where two gay or lesbian people get married in one state (like Massachusetts) and then challenge their home state's refusal to recognize their marriage under the "full faith and credit act" of the US Constitution.

Also, has ANYONE tried to pass a civil rights law for GLBT people before at a national level?

ENDA and the Permanent Partners Immigration Act have been brought up for several Congresses now (the former since the first Bush administration) but get voted down every year by both Republicans and Democrats.

[Powerlock]

128. Totally wrong

If you are married in MA in a few months, do you think the federal government is going to give you a tax credit on FEDERAL taxes? Do you think the federal government will even recognize you? Nope. Do you think you will be able to openly serve in the military, and even if you could, think you will get the benefits a married couple can get?

There is a list of literally HUNDREDS of federal advantages you won't have available to you. (I am sorry I can't find it now. Maybe someone else knows of it?)

Same sex marriages MUST be recognized on the federal level as well as state, otherwise no equality will exist.

The claim that the fed government has no role in marriage is BS plain and simple. If it doesn't recognize you then you're screwed.

[Brian_Expat]

131. As I explained. . .

Tax policy and immigration policy on a federal level are governed by DOMA, which is unconstitutional and will either be changed by a vote or declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Further, every Democratic candidate for President will support changes to DOMA that allow tax benefits and immigration benefits to be reaped for gay couples.

There is a list of literally HUNDREDS of federal advantages you won't have available to you.

I am quite aware of this, but most of those benefits are blocked simply because of DOMA.

The claim that the fed government has no role in marriage is BS plain and simple

I agree, which is why I never made that claim.

[Powerlock]

133. I wish I could have your faith in the matter

But honestly unless we take back both houses (I don't see that happening) there is little hope of a DOMA repeal.

Furthermore, although I would make an argument of DOMA unconstitutionality under the mandate for equal protection under the law, and perhaps others depending on the states, I do not believe the federal courts will do so especially if bush can continue to appoint judges with out considerable resistance. Such a challenge could also very well take many years.

Even if they were to strike it down, they may very easily rule that the fed government has no ability to recognize same sex marriage until congress passes legislation to that effect. This is very possible considering review and arrangements may need to be made by congress in order to insure all systems are able and/or authorized to address couples of the same sex. Similar to the reasons behind the MA ruling. Again though, with a republican house I don't see it happening.

Though the courts could come through. It's going to depend on who is hearing it, and what state the courts are in after bush is defeated in 04.

Regardless I just wanted to emphasize the importance of federal recognition. I apologize if I misinterpreted you.

[jumptheshadow]

141. Priorities, priorities

I have two priorities in this election: 1) To put the best person in office, and, 2) To get Bush and his cronies out of the White House. The situation in the world and in this country is dire. We are at a critical junction. The path we take now may well affect generations to come.

I evaluated the candidates carefully before I made the decision to support a primary contender. Howard Dean was certainly in the mix. But in the end, Wesley Clark eclipsed Dean, as a candidate and as a potential President. He is the man who has the unique set of skills, the character and experience to set our country and the world on the right path again.

I respect the fact that Howard Dean, after some agonizing, took a principled stand on civil unions. I also respect anybody who saw the slings and arrows Dean endured on a first-hand basis and who supports him out of loyalty because of that experience. However, in my opinion, we are facing a humanitarian crisis on an unprecedented scale if we don't steer our nation back on to the right path again. Howard Dean can certainly play a major role in our nation's future, if he so chooses. But he's not the right man at this moment.

I noticed, by the way, that you offered no apologies for the flippant and offensive analogy of gay relationships to "powdered eggs." Instead you embellished the original insulting statement with a snide remark about "purity." Let me ask you: Are you gay? I am, and have: 1) Contributed to gay organizations for decades; 2) Spent years working with HIV and AIDS organizations and quite a bit of time volunteering directly with patients; 3) Went through years of intense soul-searching before I truly came out and then realigned my career, my life and my friendships to deal with my new status; 4) Have been a gay role model in a deep and happy relationship for quite some time, and, 5) Have worked on the front lines when the RW tried to elect a platform of anti-gay candidates in my neighborhood.

Don't you dare support the belittling of gay relationships because of your blind attachment to a candidate.

[jumptheshadow]

145. And another thing

Dean supporters seem to be going out of their way to systematically alienate fellow Democrats, including Clark, Kerry and Kucinich supporters, older voters and now gays.

Who do you think is going to vote for Dean after your snide remarks and your misrepresentations?

[Monte Carlo]

9. Only the callous are comfortable with abortion.

Pro-life is one thing, but liking it is another.

[Sean Reynolds]

34. Well I'm callous

Because I'm very comfortable with the issue of abortion.

[Zomby Woof]

10. straw man

Please, stay on topic. Either refute that Dean wasn't pandering disingenuously, or not. Kucinich has nothing to do with the above post.

[Sean Reynolds]

29. I was on topic - I didn't bring up DK, another poster did.

So don't come down on me. My reply was to HIS post, not yours.

[XanaDUer]

17. Even if, as a Catholic,

Kucinich is uncomfortable with abortion, he still knows he has to uphold settled case law like Rove V. Wade should he become President.

Although what that has to do with the original post , I don't know.

[Sean Reynolds]

30. And Dean would do the same with gay marriage.

He's stated MANY times that he'd support the state's rights if they chose gay marriage.

Alas, my reply wasn't to the original post - it was to the person that brought DK into the fold.

[TeacherCreature]

83. well you just made a perfect argument for Dean

thank you

[Clark4VotingRights]

105. I think that's a really valid comparison Sean.

And Kuchinich's statement on abortion was the only time he's
said something I strongly object to. He's damn near a perfect
candidate otherwise.

When Kuchinich/Dean claim they support (whatever) but are uncomfortable with it, try this exercise and see how it sounds:

"I (candidate X) support racial segregation, but I'm uncomfortable
with it."

That'd be a pretty jaw-droppingly horrible statement wouldn't it?
A lot of people would be outraged. As they should be.

[dsc]

5. Oh really Kucinich

supported DOMA back in 96 (he said repeatedly he saw no reason to change that law). That seems uncomforatble to me.

[Zomby Woof]

13. Again

Kucinich is not the topic here. It is about Dean and his phony rhetoric on "unity" and gay rights.

Can you not refute what I said above? Or must you drag Kucinich in here because you have nothing else?

[dsc]

23. This is what I responded to

again he lies Kucinich isnt uncomfortable

Please tell me who Kucinich isn't the subject of that post. I would really love to see that.

[Sean Reynolds]

33. DK *IS* the topic to these replies because someone brought him up.

He was brought into the fold by a supporter, these are replies to that comment, NOT the original post.

[Zomby Woof]

42. so two wrongs make a right?

:shrug:

[Sean Reynolds]

48. Odd that you attack me, but not him......

[Zomby Woof]

52. I am not attacking

I am not attacking anyone - I don't think a DK supporter should hijack this thread any more than anyone else. I just noticed yours first, which should be taken as a compliment.

Also notice: I said "two wrongs", which pretty much SAYS both you and the other person were wrong, right?

[Sean Reynolds]

58. Remember, you told me I was getting off topic.

When it was the other person that started talking about Kucinich, not I.

[dsc]

56. The poster claimed Dean was lying

Her evidence for that lie was Kucinich being comfortable with gay marriage. Now if you could tell me how I could have defended Dean from her charge without discussing Kucinich I am all ears.

[dsc]

73. I see utter silence

I figured as much.

[TeacherCreature]

85. maybe dsc truth is more powerful than Zomby-troof

:shrug:

[TLM]

92. Kucinich supported DOMA and you're attacking Dean

because he said the issue made him uncomfortable, yet still stood up and did the right thing with civil unions?

Is Kucinich still against the rights of gays?

Or did he flip flop on that like he did on a woman;s right to choose?

[dsc]

102. not only that Dean flat out told the lege in VT he would veto DOMA

if they tried to pass one there.

[Mairead]

60. Cite please

Because I can't find any support for that -- and I've looked, including mailing the people you suggested.

So please give a good, solid cite or a retraction.

[dsc]

72. Here

and I did provide this before it was on his own webisite.

http://www.kucinich.com/Gay%20Marriage.htm

Tom Diemer and Sabrina Eaton
Plain Dealer Bureau

Washington - Rep. Dennis Kucinich, whose political stances are attracting support from an array of liberal and celebrity donors, yesterday came out in support of same-sex marriage.

Kucinich's strong backing of gay marriage appears to mark a change in his thinking. As a candidate for Congress in 1996, he said he opposed a change in law to allow same-sex marriages.

But yesterday, at a forum for presidential contenders sponsored by a gay-rights group, the Cleveland Democrat said "there should be a federal law that would allow gay couples to be married," rather than leaving the matter to the states.

That is plain as day and exactly what I said he said. It is a clear, unambiguous statement that Dennis said this. It took me one, count it one search, and was privided to you upon request. You are flat out telling tales when you claim it wasn't. Unless you are accusing these people of outright lying it is plain as day.

On edit, this is his sight and when you get there you will see the statement in read along with other things said about Kucinich. If they didn't believe this statement was accurate they wouldn't have highlighted it.

[Powerlock]

130. This source is weak

it has to be taken out of context. Do you have any other sources?

[dsc]

132. it is his website for Chirsts sake

His site highlighted it. But just what context is "I see no reason for a change in DOMA" a good thing?

[Mairead]

143. Check your facts. If you think kucinich.com is DK's site, then

there's something very badly wrong with your ability to perceive things. Honestly.

[Mairead]

142. Jesus, dsc, you don't see the difference between your

'he supported DOMA' claim and this 'opposed ... allow{ing} same-sex marriages'? Your claim was that he supported PROHIBITING them, and you offer as 'proof' a claim by a right-wing site filled with lies that he said he opposed ALLOWING them? Check your logic, for God's sake!

"This is his sight {sic}"? WHOSE site? Dennis's? Check your facts, why don't you!

How about you try again. Or retract.

[dsc]

146. It is a Plain Dealer Article

The names of the reporters are on it. It clearly states in unabmigous terms that Dennis K, in 1996, saw no reason to change DOMA. I may have been wrong about the site. But unless the reporters are utter liars, and their names are on the article, then Kucinich did exactly, precisely and completely what I said he did.

[Mairead]

152. "Kucinich did exactly, precisely and completely what I said he did"

No he damned well didn't! Read it again for God's sake.

[Powerlock]

129. I would be VERY interested in seeing this

source?

[corporatewhore]

6. Biracial marriage makes me uncomfortable

Its no different in my eyes as a biracial bisexual

[Melinda]

71. Wow, look how your post count has jumped in just a few weeks!!

You're really quite the prolific poster! :eyes:

[ErasureAcer]

8. ahahahahaha

Dean chooses soccer over the GLBT community.

this might be acceptable every now and then...but EVERY year?

oh man....too funny.

Thank goodness for people like Dennis Kucinich who actually care about the GLBT community.

www.kucinich.us

[TLM]

93. Look like Kucinich fliped on gay marriage... just like abortion.

"Washington - Rep. Dennis Kucinich, whose political stances are attracting support from an array of liberal and celebrity donors, yesterday came out in support of same-sex marriage.

Kucinich's strong backing of gay marriage appears to mark a change in his thinking. As a candidate for Congress in 1996, he said he opposed a change in law to allow same-sex marriages. "


Is there any issue on which DK won't do a 180% for the Dem nomination run?

Guess he's not pandering to the republican religious nuts in his home state so he no longer has to be anti-choice and anti-gay rights to get their votes.

[Mairead]

144. Cite, please

[wyldwolf]

11. Dean's Lt. Governor was for gay marriage, Dean was not...

According to the Associated Press, Vermont's lieutenant governor and House speaker supported gay marriage, but Dean didn't. Gay marriage "makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else," Dean said at the time.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2086952

But is doesn't make ME uncomfortable.

[eyesroll]

12. This was several years ago. HD's response, in the Rock the Vote debate:

COOPER: You talked earlier about what you did in Vermont regarding civil unions. And you've also been quoted as saying, quote, 'that gay marriage,' quote, 'makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else.'

I don't know if we have it. We had a photo from The New York Times this Sunday, two guys who went -- oh, we don't have it -- anyway, two guys who went up to Canada to get married. What about that makes you uncomfortable?

DEAN: You sound like Tim Russert. I said that, the day after the Supreme Court decision, or the day of the Supreme Court decision.

Look, when I signed the civil unions bill, I didn't know anything more about the gay community than I did 25 years earlier. I did it, not because I knew a lot about the gay community, it was because I believed every single American deserves equal rights under the law, not just the ones you play golf with or you live next door to, but every single American deserves equal rights under the law.

So, you know, I have come to know the LGBT community over time because I signed the first equal rights under the law bill for gay and lesbian Americans.

But, you know, I think most Americans don't understand the gay and lesbian community. And that's part of getting equal rights, is to reaching out to Americans who don't understand and help them to understand.

And the single-most important act in helping gay and lesbians get the same rights as everybody else is not my signing the civil unions bill, it's people who are gay and lesbian standing up and being proud of who they are and saying so. And that way, Americans get to understand them as human beings, which is the process I went through and every heterosexual goes through.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64721-2003Nov4?language=printer

[wyldwolf]

18. So it was another example of a waffle?

Or did his position/opinion evolve?

Can other candidate's positions and opinions evolve?

[Clark Can WIN]

69. Or was he blaming the victims - calling out the closeted?

Shifting the responsibility?

" And the single-most important act in helping gay and lesbians get the same rights as everybody else is not my signing the civil unions bill, it's people who are gay and lesbian standing up and being proud of who they are and saying so. And that way, Americans get to understand them as human beings, which is the process I went through and every heterosexual goes through. "


Wow Howard, I've been a heterosexual all my life and I NEVER.....EVER....... had to wait for a/some/any homosexual persons to "stand up and be proud...... so I could understand them" ........before I thought of them as human beings. But that's just me. I'm not the one who's uncomfortable with homosexuals.

[dsc]

76. Such bigotry

almost as bad as this.

Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the Human Rights Campaign, has said that some of the most difficult and important decisions in the lives of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people relate to coming out. That is because the only way we will stop the discrimination gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people face is to reveal our true selves to our friends, families, neighbors - and elected officials who have the power to change the laws that affect our lives.

end of quote

What a gay bashing blame the victim type this Elizabeth Brich must be. How could she be that way. Oops that isn't right she was directer of the Human Rights Campaign.

http://www.hrc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Coming_Out/Get_Informed4/Coming_Out3/Index.htm#why

Literally unbelivable that's what your post was.

[Zomby Woof]

19. I appreciate you staying on topic

nt

[Clark Can WIN]

74. so the "This was several years ago" argument is hunky dory for Dean

But crap when talking about Clarks Reagan vote. Right?

huh. given the choice I would rather welcome Reagan democrats home and not alienate the gay vote. But that's just me.

[eyesroll]

79. Hey, I've never criticized Clark re:Reagan...

I think it's perfectly reasonable to come over to the D side after voting R for many years. I know plenty of people who have done it; some post here. It's not a disqualification for running for president (nor do I consider it an asset; it's more neutral for me).

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to admit one's discomfort with gay marriage -- a lot of people, of all political persuasions, are -- and then a few years later be able to articulate why you felt that way when you did, and how and why your thinking has evolved.

(I know Dean has criticized Clark for voting R in the past, or recently converting to D. He shouldn't. Bad move on Dean's part, I agree.)

[TeacherCreature]

86. D'oh!

How about a few months ago raising money for and praising the BFEE? Do you have convenient memory affliction?

[TLM]

94. Well did Dean say two years ago at an anti-gay fundraiser

that Fread Felps was a truly great leader the way Clark said that about Reagan at a repuke fundraiser?

[PAMod]

14. DEAN's campaign is divisive?

Am I in Wonderland?

Dean's campaign is the most inclusive campaign I have ever witnessed, in my 28 years of watching this stuff.

Dean has been trying to awaken the sleeping Democratic Party. I think his brusque manner has offended some people - the people that needed to be awakened!

Watch and learn!

[Zomby Woof]

21. his brusque manner

You mean like calling his opponents cockroaches? Or ripping off Wellstone? Claiming he is the only antiwar candidate?

That isn't brusque, just rude and dishonest.

[PAMod]

47. It is brutally honest.

I don't blame Kucinich for the frustration of being ignored. He is a rare breed of Congressman, in that he has maintained his strongly held views over the years, without trial balloons and holding his finger to the winds (like some other M.O.C. who would be President).

His problem is that many of those views and his presentation of them have held him back with the voters.

To most voters (who recognize him) he is like an honest Traficant.

Dean says what he believes, and presents it in such a way that people actually listen to him and want to help him. That is leadership, and also what wins elections.

[Zomby Woof]

80. Dean says anything that will endear him to whoever

He has no core set of principles, other that which is good for his career.

Kucinich put his mayoral career on the line in Cleveland, and paid the price. Dean would never dream of being that bold, or principled. EVERYTHING he did, including signing the civil union bill, was a prop for his career.

THAT is the key difference.

Hard to say Dean is honest or has conviction when he is pulling his foot out of his mouth every other day. He is an embarrassment.

[TLM]

96. You mean like Kucinich use of the pro-life prop

in order to get fundi repulbican religious votes?

Then how he flip flopped because he knew the dem base did not want to hear that anti-choice crap?


Kucinich is losing and hypocritical attacks on Dean from supporters of the guy who voted against gay marriage in the past won't change that.

[TeacherCreature]

87. His brusque manner bothers you?

I am finding that very ironic.

[Hawkeye-X]

136. only _MAJOR_ candidate to oppose the war

In my view, DK is not one. He's a fringe candidate that's been stewing at 2%.

He won't get anywhere and will drop soon sometime in the middle of Feburary .

Y'know Zomby, I love you and all, man, but you got to stop taking things out of context.

Hawkeye-X

[jumptheshadow]

150. Will he make the transition?

Will he be able to appeal to a broader electorate?

The polls often trail the actual trends and the actual trends haven't boded very well lately.

[silverweb]

15. What a pathetic attack.

Really.

Dr. Dean was "uncomfortable" with the concept "gay marriage," like a lot of straight people are at first. Then he thought about it and decided that equal rights for EVERYONE is the real issue involved. He recognized that "marriage" is a religious institution and individual churches should address that. He recognized that equal rights under the law for ALL Americans should be enabled and enforced. And then he signed a somewhat unpopular civil union legislation in an election year.

An honest man, objectively examining his emotional reactions, assessing his convictions and reasoning, and doing the right thing. What a concept!

[Zomby Woof]

25. but he's not honest

In my commentary above, I point out how.

I don't begrudge him the right to be prejudice, but his dodge on why he signed it in secret was obvious too all but the most casual observer of politics.

[silverweb]

28. This is bullshit.

We have the BFEE to expurgate from this country and you're obsessing over crap like this. What a waste of time and energy!

[Zomby Woof]

41. I am obsessing?

I posted a thread that took just a few minutes of my day. That hardly qualifies as an obsession. I spend far more time promoting my candidate and pursuing my many non-political hobbies otherwise. Dean's record isn't very hard to refute, nor is it very time-consuming to do so. :-)

I can multitask. I have multiple priorities. Keeping Dean from getting nominated is one of them. But it is far from the first or only one.

[TLM]

97. Garbage attacks....

Dean did not sign the civil unions bill in secret. He signed it, like any other legislated action when it was brought to him.

The guy signs a law that was not only incredibly important but also incredibly divisive to a lot of folks in his state and you're giving him shit because he didn't throw a f-ing parade?

Dean pushed the issue on that years legislative agenda and campaigned for it while having to wear a bullet proof vest... and you're pissed because he did not make a big deal with lots of fanfare out of the signing?

What should he have done? Sign it while standing atop a big pink triangle float being pulled through Burlington by leather clad drag queens?

Seems some folks will look for anything to attack Dean over... oh oh oh he wasn't wearing an AIDS ribbon while he signed the historic gay rights legislation, clearly Dean hates people with AIDS.

[revcarol]

45. Marriage is not a religious insitution.

You are NOT married until your union is registered with the state.The state has the say in marriage and divorce and child custody...ad infinitum.
Saying it's up to the churches, when any JP or judge can marry people, is a political way of copping out.

If he is for a homosexual marriage to be legal and it must be recognized by the feds and every other state in the union as part of civil rights, why not say so?

[TLM]

98. Nope, wrong the union is what is recognized by the state.

the marriage is the ceremony built up around the creation of that union. And yes for the most part a marriage is a religious ceremony.

[jumptheshadow]

149. LOL, then lots of people are under the wrong impression

Then the hundreds of folks who take their vows in NYC city hall each week aren't really married?

The shallowness keeps getting shallower.

[Padraig18]

16. Isn't this #143 or #144 in the "Attack Dean Rolodex"?

It could be #142, but I've lost track... :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

24. #147. Right after "Dean dodged the Draft".

[Zomby Woof]

26. clever

But you didn't offer a rebuttal, just blanket sarcasm and the rolling eyes emoticon.

How about some substance, please?

[Padraig18]

35. How many times does it need to be rebutted, if it even does?

How many times do you need to repost it would be an equally-fair question, I would think. Frankly, these threads are beginning to smell of desparation... :shrug:

[Zomby Woof]

37. I have NEVER posted on this topic

An archival search will bear this out. I have NEVER posted a thread about Dean and the gay marriage issue.

You dodged a rebuttal again.

[Padraig18]

38. So?

I'm not GOING to 'rebut it', because there's nothing to rebut. Just because YOU'VE never posted it doesn't mean it hasn't been posted 4000 times before. :eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

46. Thanks for kicking my post anyway

You sure love those rolling eyes, lol.

[Hawkeye-X]

137. Heed my advice, ZombyWoof

Go to your local library and ask if they have "Howard Dean: A Citizen's Guide to the Man Who Would be President"
By a team of reporters for the Times Argus and Rutland Herald

In it will explain Dean's truth about gay marriage and how he came to a compromise to civil unions.

It's an excellent book, and gave me another view of Dean from the citizen's perspective.

[Scott Lee]

59. YOU ask for "substance"?

Jumpin Jeebus on a pogo stick - now THAT is funny!

[Zomby Woof]

82. not quite as funny...

...as a professed Marxist supporting Dean, but I get your drift, as it were.

[TLM]

99. Refuting baseless attacks on Dean from those who attack him here

to make up for their own candidates' losing campaign... is like trying to juggle diarrhea.

Due to the total lack of substance, the act only results in covering those who attempt it, in shit.


Come up with a criticism based on something of substance, and not just assumptive ad homonym crap, and you can expect more substantive responses.

[donco6]

20. I would bet most straight men are uncomfortable.

It's their lousy fashion sense.

But seriously, so frickin' what? I don't care about how someone FEELS - I care about what they're going to DO.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

43. BRAVO!!

Someone here has some sense.

[ozone_man]

54. Yeah.

Dr. Dean was the first to sign civil unions into law, and it was not a pretty campaign in Vermont. He wore a bullet proof vest as death threats were made against him. Apparently, he had ways to avoid this issue had he decided to. He chose well.

[blm]

61. Leaders shouldn't be uncomfortable. Kerry advocated for gays for decades.

And did so forcefully and publically, including in congressional testimony.

[donco6]

70. I stand by my statement

Kerry SUPPORTED gay rights - but we don't know how he felt about gay sex or marriage. I personally don't care how he *felt*, either.

[ulysses]

140. "Leaders shouldn't be uncomfortable."

Bullshit. I don't much care if the thought of gay marriage troubles Deans thoughts at night, gives him a rash, or what have you. There are many wonderful differences between personal questions or failings and public action.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

22. Wow.

I guess we have a little something in common. I'm uncomfortable too... with a man like that running for president! :eyes:

Howard Dean, if you're not comfortable with the politics of things, don't put yourself into politics.

[stickdog]

27. Look at his record.

End of discussion.

[Democrats unite]

31. Have looked at his record...

Thats why I am voting for Clark!

[Zomby Woof]

36. so his rhetoric doesn't matter?

What comes out of his mouth is at LEAST as important, if he is to truly be an alternative to Bush.

Dean's record, rhetoric, and behavior must be evaluated comprehensively as with all candidates. I not only want Bush out, I want someone markedly different in both substance and tactics. So far, I have found Dean's campaign and character to be as disingenuously similar in tone, tactics, and content as that of Bush.

[Melodybe]

65. Difference is Bush* in 2004=Nasi USA, Dean in office=A DEM IN OFFICE

Look if you don't see the difference between what a Democrat in office vs another four years of Bu$h will do to this country then you are beyond helping anyway.

I actually like Kucinich and wish that this country was ready for the politics that he represents, unfortunately that is not the case. I wasted my vote last time and this time the future of my children is at stake and I will not be making that mistake again.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

66. Isn't Kucinich or another honest dem also DEM IN OFFICE?

This is the primaries...

Your post is under assumption that we only have one choice and that is Dean. Well I see almost 9 other candidates that are more pallatable that Dean.

Why would a vote for Kucinich be a waste???? He is running as a DEMOCRATIC candidate. I assume you were referring to voting THIRD party for Nader.


All I can do when I read these posts is :shrug:

TWL

[no name no slogan]

125. Quit using Rovian scare tactics-- it demeans us all

It's this kind of BS rhetoric by Democrats of ANY persuasion that elects Liebermanns to office. The US WILL NOT become a Nazi nation under Shrub any more than it would become under Dean, Liebermann, Gephardt or Kerry.

People will not all of a sudden support your candidate out of this irrational 'fear'. Such knee-jerk reactionary appeals to emotion are the same ones that Franco used in Spain in the 1930s, that Hitler used in Germany in the 1930s, and that Mussolini used in Italy in the 1920s.

This kind of inflammatory statement does nothing to bring credibility to your candidate, nor does it make anybody else want to support your candidate. It's the same kind of shit that the Repub Rove Machine churns out every day ("you're either with us, or you're against us").

[TLM]

100. That's odd because you know

So far, I have found Kucinich's anti-choice record to be as disingenuously similar in tone, tactics, and content as that of Bush.

[Rose Siding]

32. I was too, until my brother came out

and gave me the exposure to develop my own opinions.

Dean learned as I did and as have many others, I'd guess. It would be swell if moms just popped us all out complete in spirit. Some of us do some improving along the way.

Here's Dean's statement after the signing, if you're interested. It explains in more depth why gloating would have been inappropriate and also his recognition of what there was to celebrate-

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/6607

[killbotfactory]

39. Oh My GOD!

Dean wasn't comfortable with the issue and then did the right thing, and is unashamed of doing so to this day.

Burn the witch!

[rucky]

40. Why do I feel like I'm watching MST3K when I read this?

are you the one with the gumball machine for a head?

[Zomby Woof]

44. No, I'm Crow

nt

[Jim Sagle]

49. Pathetic, lame attempt to turn a positive into a negative.

Thankfully nobody here is so goddamn STOOOOOOOPID as to fall for it. :boring:

[Upfront]

50. Can I Still Say Poop?

If so, Poop. If not I retract Poop, and will settle for silly.

[Zomby Woof]

53. but not so silly

That you were above adding your 2 cents, hm?

[Cannikin]

55. Bottom line..he's still better than Bush.

[Zomby Woof]

57. so is my big toe

But I think we can, and should, do better than a "better by default" candidate. That is why we fight, this primary season. Because some of us dare to dream above mediocrity and the same old shit.

Dean is a status quo candidate. Saying he is better than Bush isn't much of a defense when just about everyone under the sun and moon is better than Bush.

It's like choosing between jock itch and hemorrhoids with those two.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

67. I owe you a drink

"It's like choosing between jock itch and hemorrhoids with those two."

That deserves a drink!

When where? :) If you are ever in Cleveland, send me a message!

TWL

[Zomby Woof]

84. don't see myself in Ohio anytime soon

But I will take you up on it regardless. :toast:

[TLM]

101. If you think we can do better than Dean....

Why not promote you guy instead of attacking Dean?


Oh yeah, that's because almost nobody wants your guy and his anti-choice bullshit flip flop.

Nevermind, go back to attacking Dean... it's all you've got.

[no name no slogan]

127. Yup, blather-rinse-repeat

Dean invented the internet campaign.

Dean invented grassroots activism.

Dean is the only candidate who opposed the war.

Dean is the only candidate from a farm state.

Dean isn't tied to corporate interests-- DESPITE the seed money from the Koch Brothers (founders of the Cato Institute), the contributions from top (AOL) Time/Warner execs, AND contributions from members of ENRON's Board of Directors.

Yeah, whatever. Keep repeating the lies, because you know damn well that Dean is bad on most issues and changes his positions depending on who's asking the question-- and then lies about them, to boot.

Go for it. Nominate the fraud. And watch him get his @$$ kicked back to Wall Street the day after the election. Because if a few Democrats can see through this fraud of a candidate, there's no doubt the rest of the country will have no problem seeing through him, either.

[Shanty Oilish]

62. As long as he signed it, I don't care about his comfort level

He's not my candidate, but I have to say some of the criticisms against Dean sound very strained.
You could look at this one on the positive side and give the man MORE credit for advancing a cause despite his queasiness, because the cause is just.
I have no hope, none, of a victory in '04 with Dean. Haven't had any use for him since he discussed apologies with Russert last summer. ("I didn't apologize/I said I was sorry/actually I didn't say I was sorry/I'm not afraid to apologize when I'm wrong...") That entire interview was a debacle. When Bush & Co get done with this guy he'll be lucky if he can practice medicine in this country, he'll be so discredited---and possibly the Party likewise.
But then I hear the grumblings about his confidential meetings (just a sensible and appropriate approach) and his brochures (it's advertising, people! in his opinion some of the others aren't major) and his place on the spectrum (left to the centrists, R-lite to the lefties) and his clumsy pandering (you want proficiency there?) and now his frank admission of qualms about civil unions.
Come on. At least the man is a known Democrat from way back. Better he retreat from his occasional logorrhea than from his record. He's pro-choice and never was otherwise. And he's very likely to be the nominee, so let's not send him into the race pre-bloodied by his own. Let's not fire on him because he's a politician and a human being. We could do worse.
We ARE doing worse, at the moment.

[Bolo Boffin]

63. Read the whole article, please.

It's an open and honest look into the political and ethical thinking of Howard Dean. And it's not as bad as those few passages indicate, although I appreciate ZW's points. And I'm speaking as a Clark/ABB supporter.

There are no pictures of Gov. Dean signing civil unions legislation to appear in Republican advertisements. The Repukes can of course grab any picture of a signing Dean to use in its stead. But the political calculation in this approach is obvious.

Likewise, the statement about the Tom Lawson soccer tournament. If it had been a Enron official wanting to open a captive insurance company in Vermont, a staffer would have been sent to the games with a camera.

But let's consider the entire paragraph of the "uncomfortable" remark:

The truth is that it is the politics that made me uncomfortable. (Personally) I’m sure that I have the same hang-ups that lots of people have on the issue. But it is a matter of equity. I remain convinced that of the 50 percent of people who are opposed to this, that half of those are fundamentally decent human beings and this is just a vast change for them that they’ve never considered before. I consider those people people who will ultimately accept the equality of gays and lesbians and stop marginalizing them. Those are the people that I have to speak to.

The Dean/civil unions issue is supposed to make Dean "unelectable" because Americans by and large are uncomfortable with gay marriage. But I think Dean is correct here - many have never considered such a vast change. They would do just as he says they would; they hold the potential to stop marginalizing gays and lesbians. The question is this: Can Dean articulate his position on civil unions to the "half" of the opposed 50% that will listen? Can he speak to them?

OITM: What role, if any, do you think homophobia played in the civil union debate?

Dean: I hesitate to use the word because many people confuse homophobia with bigotry. A bigot is someone who deliberately manifests mean-spirited unequal treatment of people because of who they are. It is very difficult to deal with bigotry except with the law. We live in a culture that is somewhat homophobic. Homosexuals become a lightning rod for all kinds of fears for things that have nothing to do with homosexuals. The reason for that is that, especially in men, sexuality is a terrible struggle. It takes some insight to understand that your own projections on a group of people have to do with your concerns about sexuality. Homophobia is widespread; bigotry is not. There are a lot of people who are homophobic but are not bigots. Those people can be brought into an understanding that everybody is a member of this community regardless of their sexual orientation.

This is the crux of his message to that segment of the opposition who will listen. You can be a homophobe (fear of homosexuals) without being a bigot (someone who deliberately manifests mean-spirited unequal treatment of people because of who they are). There are a few levels to homophobia - it's not a light switch. People who have a slight degree of homophobia can have their fears allayed by knowledge.

And most homophobes view themselves like this. They don't beat up gay people, they live and let live, as long as they're not living too close. Dean knows his audience and he can appeal to that part of their nature - live and let live. He made the journey this audience needs to make, and he can lead them on it.

This is important to realize: the Dean candidacy will be a referendum on the current state of gay rights in this country. Do we view Dean as unelectable because we fear what America will say to us on this issue? That's the fear we would be projecting onto Dean, wouldn't it?

This article actually makes me feel better about this issue for Dean. I think he can handle himself on it. May the best man win the nomination!

PS: Howard firmly places the onus of homophobia on the homophobe - it's projecting fears about your own sexuality onto a group of people. And he did sign the legislation, cameras or not.

On edit: minor grammar thing.

[mzmolly]

64. OMG, not more honesty from a political candidate.

WTF is he thinking?

[Zomby Woof]

78. he is DISHONEST

That was my point. He strikes me as a latent homophobe, which he almost admitted, and even worse, so stupid as to parse the definition of "bigot" with "homophobe" that makes me wonder why he went into medicine instead of law.

And don't tell me you believe that he signed the bill in private so as not to taunt. He was scared of the backlash. Some principled leader, eh?

Then there is the idiotic soccer dodge. Honest? LOL. ;-)

Honesty is FAR from one of his strong suits.

[Brian_Expat]

75. Why is this a story?

Everyone in Vermont knew he was "uncomfortable" with marriage and civil unions. Despite that, he made the choice to pick up the ball and run with it, because unlike a lot of other "liberals," he thinks that civil rights of all come before "comfort" and "discomfort."

[Brian_Expat]

77. OH FOR GOD'S SAKE BE HONEST, PEOPLE

I bet half the people ripping on Dean's "discomfort" so vehemently are themselves uncomfortable if I kiss my partner or otherwise act affectionate around him in their presence.

God, this hypocrisy is disgusting. :puke:

[Zomby Woof]

81. hypocrisy?

So why are you living abroad as an expat, and not here in America fighting for Dean if you believe in him so much? You have the luxury of having no dog in this fight, unless you count that poodle you have as Prime Minister (that is, if your avatar does truly mean you are living in the UK).

Easy to cast your opinion about when you are on the sidelines, with no risk.

[Brian_Expat]

107. Insulting

So why are you living abroad as an expat, and not here in America fighting for Dean if you believe in him so much

Because I have a high-paying job in my field here, when the US economy gave me nothing but economic ruin after Dubya got into office when "purists" who complained about Gore's "lack of comfort" with gays insisted on voting for Nader rather than Gore, leading to Bush's victory.

You have the luxury of having no dog in this fight

Oh, spare me the arrogance. I am living in the UK on a work visa. If I lose my job tomorrow, I get deported after three days back to the good ol' USA. Unless I get into a domestic partnership with my UK-citizen boyfriend -- something that I can do here but CANNOT do in the USA, mostly because hypocrites are attacking Dean for not "going whole hog" for gay marriage or "being uncomfortable" with gay relationships. For you, 4 more years of Bush means little other than your candidate loses. For me, four more years of Bush could mean that I may never be able to return to the USA if I marry my partner, since Bush opposes legislation that would allow me to live in the US with my family.

Would you abandon your family to make some political statement? If so, I feel sorry for you and your spouse.

Easy to cast your opinion about when you are on the sidelines, with no risk.

It's even easier to cast your opinion about me when you know jack-you-know-what about me. I knew who Dean was and campaigned for him in his gubernatorial race back before Kucinich was even thinking about running. I don't recall seeing you on the ground in Vermont against all the haters when the civil union vote was so close. I do see you here now, taking pot shots against Dean and me, when I am more than willing to bet I've done more on the ground for gay rights in the USA in Y2K than you will in your entire life.

PS -- That "poodle Blair" (as you call him) is preparing more comprehensive unions legislation for same-sex and opposite-sex customers that allows foreigners to stay in the UK if they register their partnerships with the government, eliminating the requirement that partners cohabitate for two years' time. Dean supports similar legislation, but you're still going to argue that he's anti-gay, aren't you? And not because you care about the well-being of gay people like me -- rather, because you're lobbying for your candidate.

[donco6]

88. I agree with you.

Talk is cheap on both sides of this debate.

[TeacherCreature]

89. kick to keep this mean little attack tactic on top

I think everyone should see how petty and ridiculous a non-issue this is.
He was honest about how he felt (and please don't tell me those feelings are unusual), he got over it and he did the right thing. Yet you want to make an issue over this?

You should really be embarrased. It seems like some Kucinich supporters have really hit bottom. First there is a big outcry over the word "only" (even though Kucinich uses it himself) and now this?

[Zomby Woof]

95. thanks for the kick!

If it keeps jsut one undecided person from voting for Dean, it is worth it. :D

[TLM]

104. Chances are it would cause many more to vote for him...

see folks like the fact that Dean rose about his personal discomfort to do what was right... something sorely lacking in most other politicians.

Like Kerry supporting the war or Kucinich being anti-choice just to try and get votes from right wingers.

[Brian_Expat]

108. Exactly

And I understand why heteros are uncomfortable with gay relationships. The idea of a heterosexual relationship makes me feel. . . uncomfortable.

*GASP* I am a heterophobic bigot unfit for office! :evilgrin:

[ibegurpard]

103. So what?

It makes ME kind of uncomfortable as well and I'm gay. Doing the right thing even if it makes you uncomfortable is admirable.

[Zomby Woof]

106. I love you all really

Terrific audience. Beautiful. :hi: Thanks for dropping by!

[David Zephyr]

110. I Love You, ZW, But Dean Still Did The Right, If Not Unpopular Thing.

And was rewarded with millions of gay and lesbian dollars for his actions as Governor. His actions not words spoke to millions and millions of hearts and minds.

My gay accountant who has never given a plug nickel to a politician in his life has given money twice to Dean now.

[Zomby Woof]

113. I agree it was right

No doubt. But the point of me posting this is to show that he isn't nearly as comfortable in his skin as some of his supporters suggest, and he will lie - not just spin, not just rationalize, but lie - to score points with 'controversial' (to the mainstream) constituents. I think it took balls for him to act so humble and "candid" with this magazine. I got the feeling when reading the entire interview (some of my critics think I did not, but how else could I have pulled the excerpts?) that the interviewer was MUCH too polite and deferential to call the governor of his or her state a liar and slimebag. I commend their fairness and patience with Dean.

I have no such restrictions as did the interviewer, only I regret I am not able to say so to his face. :-)

He has balls, that I will give him. Signing the bill was the right thing to do. In politics, these decisions are never easy or painless.

But I think he revealed more about his true nature than he realized, and it struck me as I was reading it.

Thanks for disagreeing with me civilly, David. Hope your new year is a good one too, after all that you went through recently.

ZW

[Brian_Expat]

114. Please. . .

"True natures" are shown when someone cares more about the "symbolism" of language than the substance of the issues involved. Whenever a heterosexual politician tells me he or she is "completely comfortable" with gay people, it cracks me up. Most heterosexuals, likely including you, are uncomfortable to some degree with gay relationships and the idea of gay relationships.

Dean was simply being honest when he said how he felt, and your claim that you "saw more deeply into his true nature" than those of us who saw him don a bulletproof vest for his campaign over civil unions is laughable. With "friends" like Kucinich, we'd never get anywhere, because they'd be busy alienating all the allies who aren't 100% purists who pretend to be "comfortable."

I'd rather be "offended" and equal than "outraged, purist" and irrelevant. The course you advocate would take us in the latter direction.

Signed,

A Gay Man Who Knows Who His Friends Are And Doesn't Need Someone Else To "Explain" It To Him

[David Zephyr]

118. Thanks.

:hi:

I think Willie's song and his support of Dennis is really something else.

Dennis will surprize a lot of Democrats in the Primaries with a solid showing. And that will be a very good thing!

[Dookus]

111. This gay clark supporter...

can't find anything to fault Howard Dean on regarding this issue. He's to be commended for signing the bill. I don't care how he "felt" about anything. Truth be told, 99% of straight people are to some degree "uncomfortable" with the subject. Dean just said it out loud. Good for him on this one.

[Zomby Woof]

115. that's cool

I just think the whole soccer canard blew his cover wide open. Showed him to be a phony and a scam. But your POV is just as valid as mine and the next poster's. :-)

[Brian_Expat]

116. Tell us about your "POV"

What have you done of note regarding gay issues that qualifies you to talk down about gay issues to gay activists on this board? Please, elucidate.

[Dookus]

117. I find the soccer excuse

a little disingenuous, too, but it might well be legitimate.

I don't care who marches in our parades. I'll take a signed civil-unions bill over the appearance of solidarity.

That said, Go Clark :)

[Brian_Expat]

119. Dookus, I so despise "safe left" candidates. . .

. . . who talk about how pure they are on our issues, but have never achieved anything of note for us, yet lecture about how much better they are than other candidates who have stuck out their necks for us and won. The folks who are running with the bottom-tier candidates can afford to be "completely out for gays," because they don't stand a snowball's chance.

Then lecturing gay people on which candidate they should vote for is even more condescending -- like we're "too stupid" to vote for the "right one." When I talk about my candidate, I speak only for myself -- I wish some of the "purists" in the left wing of the party would try that too. :(

[Dookus]

124. well...

you may want to tread lightly. I see you telling others why they should support Dean all the time, even in a thread for gay democrats you started.

I find it condescending, too, whether it comes from a straight person or not.

However, I do feel confident that on issues of civil rights for the glbt community, there will be no discernible difference between Clark and Dean.

[uhhuh]

139. That Rotten Dean

Putting his commitment to his family ahead of a photo op. What a cad!!

[John_H]

122. Made him so uncomfortable he wouldn't mention it by name...

in his state of the state address press release...

" also urged all Vermonters to make every effort to comply with a new state Supreme Court ruling, which confirms that all Vermonters are to have equal benefits under the law."

[Zomby Woof]

123. haha!

Yes! You got exactly what I was talking about, and part of why I posted this. Thanks!

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

138. Brian..

that's not really fair. I can find a whole bunch of points I made to you that you never responded to. Let's elevate it above a schoolyard fight, OK?

[Zomby Woof]

147. no

I only debate with people who can actually vote in our elections. ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

148. nearly 150 posts!

Not bad for something that is dismissed as trivial and meaningless by Dean supporters, lol.

[jumptheshadow]

151. Yes, they seem to think a lot of issues and core voters

Are trivial and meaningless.