Would putting Howard Dean on the ticket get us NH?

[CalebHayes]

Not that I am a big fan of the idea, I think we might need a little more Geo diversity. But still I wonder if he could lock up that state.

[Wickerman]

1. 4 electoral votes?

hmmmm - that would be a start.

[IronLionZion]

2. It would get Nader's votes

and that means several swing states. Not to mention fiscal conservative votes and a huge Democratic turnout.

[tritsofme]

15. How would he get us a bigger turnout?

He couldn't even produce more than his home state in the primaries.

Two Northeasterners on the ticket is a very bad idea.

[madfloridian]

29. One state choose our nominee.....Iowa.

There was no time to recoup losses because of the McAuliffe front-loaded primaries.

It just so happened that Iowa, a little state, came first. If others had come first, things would have been different.

[JI7]

30. Kerry did consistently well in all states, none other did as well

even john edwards impressive 2nd place win didn't result in doing well everywhere. kerry did well in all states. even in states where he did not win he came in second and the winners in those states had a home town connection to that state.

the one exception was oklahoma where clark and edwards both came in ahead of kerry. they both were about tied first but kerry was still a very close second.

kerry played well all over the country. none of the other candidates did so well.

[madfloridian]

31. Dean was not really in the running after Iowa.

He came in 2nd in NH. Then in another surprising twist, Grossman announced just before WI that he was leaving Dean and going to Kerry. Really classy,huh?

The the AFL-CIO dropped him for Kerry just before WI.

Most people never got to vote for Dean. Kerry did well because he won Iowa. It was name recognition, as most people were not really paying attention.

Kerry did well because so many of the others were not around later on.

Stop the he did so well thing, because well before Florida our state Democratic leader attacked Dean in the NYT and said Kerry would win Florida. Real classy.

Dean is much more gracious than a lot of us are, but I don't bring it up until others start it.

I do not understand why someone can not just post a question here without having everyone jump on them.

[JI7]

32. the AFL-CIO never endorsed Dean

and there were people who dropped kerry also. and dean DID run in other states. he ran in washington, maine, wisconsin. he ran in new hampshire. and kerry did better than dean in all of those states. kerry did better than dean in iowa. not only kerry, but edwards did better than dean in iowa. but that didn't stop edwards from making a good 2nd place showing in wisconsin and georgia. dean never even made an impressive 2nd place showing to kerry in any of those states as edwards did in some. and clark got 3rd place in new hampshire and didn't even compete in iowa yet he still won oklahoma and got some 2nd places in the tuesday after new hampshire.

but the fact remains that kerry consistently did well all across the country. others had name recognition also.

and people did get to vote for dean in iowa,new hampshire, wisconsin,washington and many other states. even after super tuesday dean was on many ballots. there was nothing to stop them from voting for him.

[madfloridian]

33. Sorry it was AFSCME

My mistake. No, people did not know their vote mattered for delegates, and most knew he had dropped out. Others had name recognition, they were just dropped out. Unless people are politically savvy they would never have bothered to vote for someone who was out of the race.

Of course Kerry and Edwards did better in Iowa than Dean. Want to hear a story from our daughter and her hubby there is Iowa? Want to hear about the abortions Dean and his wife were said by phone calls to have performed? Want to hear about the fact that he was called mentally unstable? No, I did not think you wanted to hear that.

Want to see the video that one news station has of a pushpoll they caught on tape similar to the John McCain deal in SC? No, because they don't show it.

Kucinich sent his delegates to Edwards, Gep sent his to Kerry.

Dean takes full credit for the loss, but he is just that way. Never again should one small state so completely control our election system, and never again should the primaries be so front-loaded.

None of this would have started unless Dean were attacked from all sides here tonight. Why was he attacked again here all evening? I have no clue. He is not a threat to Kerry, and he will not be VP. Why must he be attacked?

I will post about his appearances, and give kudos when he deserves them. Those who supported others do the same.

[JI7]

37. sure , as if dean never attacked anyone

and the way the caucus system works, the voters were allowed to change their votes to anyone. there was never a point where a candidate signed off on moving their support to another candidate. and carol mosely braun endorsed dean yet you seem to not have any problem with that. and you act as if none of the other candidates were attacked.

and a small state has been voting for years first. the other states don't always vote as it does but in this case they did because kerry is such a great candidate. and wes clark not competing in iowa and coming in third in new hampshire did not prevent him from doing better than dean in many of the states voting the week after new hampshire.

and nobody is attacking dean. but if his supporters act as if the support for dean is worth more than others and that other people did not work as hard or more to help their candidate win they will get an answer in return. you act as if dean deserved to win but the other candidates wrongly took it away from him.

dean also attacked others. he called clark a republican. calling others bushlite . yet when he gets somethign in return he whined to the dnc to tell them to stop attacking him.

[madfloridian]

39. Too many assumptions there to respond to adequately.

Some of your facts are wrong, some are right. However, yes, there was sign-off on who gave whom their support at the caucuses.

You put words in my mouth that I did not say, and you misinterpreted some I said.

Kerry won, I will vote for him.

Why do you feel it so important to go after Dean? He is not a threat, and will not be VP....Ok? Why is this?

[JI7]

40. go after dean ?

i'm defending kerry and the work we did for him. we worked hard for him and he worked hard also. he got those votes because he and others worked hard to earn them for him. and there was no sign off. there were people who supported gephardt at first that went on to edwards. people are allowed to vote for whoever they want. there is nothing that says if they voted for gephardt or kucinich at first they could only change their votes later to kerry or edwards.

why did dean feel the need to attack clark and call him a republican ?

[madfloridian]

41. Why did Kerry say Dean was not fit to be president over the Saddam comment

That was really overboard. There was bitterness on all sides, not just caused by Dean. I have a daughter and her family in Iowa, and they were recipients of some of the ugly calls about Dean and Judy Dean performing "abortions." They got calls about his mental stability.
It was not one-sided. Most definitely not.

I find it odd that Dean's large lead disappeared there so quickly....but guess when. The people began parroting the party line that he was not electable....but many many said he was still their favorite.

I am glad you worked hard for Kerry. I never criticize him unless Dean is being attacked via Kerry supporters or others. Then I will have my say.

Did you know that the unelectable, angry, mentally unstable Dean was not running anymore? Are you aware of that? He is no threat to your Kerry, none at all. Did you know Dean folks have raised over a million for him, maybe more...that is just through the Dean supporters... counting the one day bat for half a mil? Did you know that many of us donated the day that Dean endorsed Kerry...through his supporters who were present there? We mailed checks,or donated via paypal so it could be turned over that day.

Most of us have done our share as well. I now prefer to donate to Dean's org and support the progressive candidates. Dean travels 6 days a week working for the candidates and supporting Kerry.

Could you please tell me what satisfaction you get in going after him for that and making us feel unwelcome here. It certainly does nothing for party unity. When I post things about Dean, I do it to show he is still active in the 2004 election cycle, though not running. There is nothing wrong with that, and people should lay off.

[JI7]

42. why did dean attack kerry for criticizing bush on afghanistan

that's just the point. you alays post about how poor dean was attacked yet you have no problem with him doing the same.

dean often claimed he was the only one who opposed the war. he said general clark supported the war even though clark said he would have voted against the resolution.

and just because dean isn't running anymore doesn't mean i'm going to let people post things about how poor dean was a victim and everyone went after him and took away what was owed him without response.

and i'm supposed to believe something just becauseyou claim it ? i think not.

[madfloridian]

43. No, I don't always say that. That is simply not true.

When people start in I will defend. I would never just bring it up.

If you will notice, my posts are defending him....I don't start it. If I post about Dean it is a positive thing about him.

I think people are more aware than ever now how that one state has so dominated the political climate in this country. If CA had been first, or even Florida....Dean might have won easily. At the time of Iowa only Clark and Dean were even viable in Florida, neck and neck. Kerry was only a blip.

Dean could not even win delegates in Oregon because they took him off the ballot when he ceased actively campaigning.

No, I do not start anything about Dean and the problems in Iowa, but I will not let people keep saying that Kerry just won it all so big. That is simply not the whole story.

[Dookus]

45. silly...

Dean knew the primary schedule as well as anybody else. He knew what he needed to do, and he failed to do it.

It really DOES seem like a lot of Dean people believe the nomination was his, and it was somehow taken away from him. That is just not true.

Dean spent the better part of a year and a small fortune in Iowa. He still came in 3rd. I don't think adding a few weeks before the next primaries would've changed ANYTHING at all. He had already lost Iowa, and his numbers were sinking everywhere.

Also, it's an insult to the voters of Iowa to claim that they didn't know Dean or that they voted on name recognition alone. Iowa caucus voters are among the most committed, educated and intelligent voters in the country. They simply preferred somebody other than your guy, but that's no reason to deride them.

Maybe it's possible that far fewer people believed he'd be a good President. He wasn't robbed. He wasn't victimized worse than any other candidate. He lost. Most candidates did. Kerry wasn't my first choice either, but I haven't built a permanent shrine to Wes Clark in my bedroom.

[JI7]

46. Kerry had not campaigned in Florida but once he did he kicked ass and won

just like iowa and most other states. your example of florida would be similar to saying clark did not do well in iowa.but clark did not even campaign in iowa just as at the time clark and dean were ahead kerry had not campaigned in florida.

and if dean would have won california he should have stayed in the race. buthe didn't because he was losing everywhere but his home state. dean was ahead in other states at some points but ended up losing when the time actually came to vote.

and of course clark came in third in new hampshire and didn't even campaign or compete in iowa yet he still did better than dean in many of the states voting a week after new hampshire. so how one did in new hampshire is not the only indicator or else clark would have not got 2nd there. but again, kerry is the ONLY one who consistently did well in ALL states. including when there was still competition from EVERYONE.

[madfloridian]

49. Uh, Dean and Clark were not running by the FL primary.

Sorry, that is true.

[JI7]

51. yeah, because they weren't doing well and Kerry was kicking ass all over

as he would have and did in florida also. that's just the thing. if dean had a chance of winning big states like california, florida, why did he drop out ? to claim just because he was once ahead in the polls in those states isn't saying much. when the actual voting started he lost in many states where he once held a lead.

[madfloridian]

53. Kerry was the only name by then.

I am so glad Kerry was kicking ass. You really do not seem very aware of many of the things that happened just before WI, and Dean actually quit campaigning after that.

You know, this is just so draining and so tiring to all of us. A person posted an innocent post, and then everyone had a chance to say how they hated Dean.

Then everyone had a chance to say how stupid and arrogant dean supporters were. And they did it. I am biting my tongue about the others who just can not accept the VP deal. Edwards and Clark folks are just getting out of control.

At least we are sensible and know that Dean will not be. We do not fight like school children over that.

This forum is just seething with hatred of a man who is campaigning for Kerry all week every week. I am trying to understand but I don't.

You absolutely refuse to realize that Kerry had the Vilsack machine in place in Iowa and that is all he needed. Now go for it, rip my throat out.

Dean is not a threat except to rebuilding the party over a period of years. That is all he is about right now.

This is so stupid so childish and so hurtful to the party to continue this bashing.

[JI7]

55. and yet you have no problem attacking Clark by claiming he supported war

i said kerry did well all around the country and you disputed it by bringing up how dean is a victim. as if the nomination was his and someone wrongly took it away from him.

and now you bring up vilsack. yet you have no problem with tom harkin endorsing dean. with bill bradley, al gore endorsing dean. and tom vilsack favored edwards, not kerry. but kerry was lucky to have vilsack's wife on his side who is very independent and does what she wants to regardless of her husband. it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if vilsack actually endorsed edwards rather than hold to the rule of not endorsing anyone. but the fact remains that dean did get harkin's endorsement. he had major endorsements. yet you have a problem if someone endorses kerry but no problem with endorsing dean.

[surfermaw]

65. You don't have to defend The Dr. he is going to help win this election

Without the group, we wouldn't have a chance to win..Dr.Dean is bringing out the grassroots, and what a super job he is doing...

[madfloridian]

67. You are very right about that.

I notice I am more aware of candidates all over the country, and much more involved.

[madfloridian]

44. Perhaps this article is why Dean said Clark supported the war.

Perhaps not. There were questions of his praising the Bush efforts as well.

Just read this, and see if it sounds like he supported the war. This was referred to during the campaign, but people said oh, he did not really mean it.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0917-14.htm

SNIP..."Anti-War Candidate?
What Must Be Done to Complete a Great Victory
by General Wesley Clark

Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled. Liberation is at hand. Liberation — the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions. Already the scent of victory is in the air. Yet a bit more work and some careful reckoning need to be done before we take our triumph..."

I do not post stuff like this until the Dean bashing starts....and yes it is bashing. I have loads more, but I would rather not drag this out.

[Dookus]

47. That doesn't mean Clark supported the war

he was commenting on the military victory.

Didn't Dean say he supported a different version of the War Resolution?

[JI7]

48. Clark testified to the fucking congress AGAINST THE WAR

this is a description of a current situation. to say people are glad that a dictator is gone from power does not mean one supports the war. and just in there he calls for more to be done. there is NOTHING in there to show he supports the war.

[madfloridian]

50. Read the article. He is praising the war as beautiful victory.

Come on, now. He did not sound against it at all at that time.

[JI7]

52. not true

he said there still is a lot more to be done. to say getting rid of a dictator is a good thing is not equal to supporting the war.

[madfloridian]

54. He was salivating over the beautiful war.

Read the article. It was just after the invasion. Do not tell me he did not approve of the wonderful victory. Yes, he had more to say, but he was proud as punch of our "victory" there.

[JI7]

56. he was proud of the military which he was part of for years

he understands that support for the military is not equal to support for the bush administration.

[madfloridian]

57. This paragraph is more than "proud."

SNIP..."Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled. Liberation is at hand. Liberation — the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions. Already the scent of victory is in the air. Yet a bit more work and some careful reckoning need to be done before we take our triumph..."

Also remember when he stated that we should make "fast work" of Fallujah....in other words destroy the city to save it. Do it quickly, he said....don't stretch it out. I have the article.

I am not responding anymore to this thread. I have made the points I wanted to make. Kerry did win the nomination. It was meant to be that way all along. Clark was thoroughly enjoying our invasion...that is not just appreciated the military.

I guess you will never agree that bashing Dean now is not necessary, so I guess it will continue. That is sad. He is no longer running. There are so many points I could make...but you are not really reading what I am saying. Dean and Kucinich are the only ones against remaking the middle east. If the others are against it they don't have the courage to say it. Shame on them. Dean said it on BBC....that the neocons tried to remap the middle east and failed. Why aren't the other saying it.

Oh, well.

Good night.

[JI7]

58. bash away at clark

and others while complaining at anything which does not agree with dean being a victim and having taken away from him something he was owed . yeah right.

and i see nothing in there that shows clark supported the war.

[surfermaw]

66. Clark also told the Nation how wonderful Bush was as President!

[surfermaw]

64. If he hadn't stayed in S.C..so much he would have carried Oklahoma

[whistle]

3. Howard Dean lost in the primary to Kerry, I think having him put on the...

..ticket would not only not get us NH, but probably would swing all of the dems states over to the dark-side. We need a strong VP and Kerry will figure out who will be best.

7. EVEREY DEM lost to Kerry in the primary

So unless you support a Dem that didn't run in the primaries, what exactly is your point?

[arcos]

9. Edwards and Clark lost too... does that disqualify them? n/t

[janx]

4. Nobody's going to put Howard Dean on the ticket--

are you kidding? ;-)

Besides, it's now down to Gep and Edwards. Kerry's team is probably angling for some good old fashioned midwestern and southern votes.

8. Hey Janx, where ya get that info?

Gep or Edwards?

Is that just your thoughts, or did you get it from a reliable source?

[janx]

12. CNN today. Wolfie. He interviewed Bill Nelson (FL senator)

who said it's now down to Geppy and Edwards.

[bigwillq]

5. We can't put Dean on the ticket just to win one minor state

I think we can still win NH without Dean.

[Still_Loves_John]

6. From what I've heard

Kerry is pretty popular in New Hampshire--apparently lots of Mass. people have moved there over the years. Everyone is kind of talking about it like Kerry already has the advantage there, even though Gore lost it in 2000.

[Bombtrack]

10. Putting Dean on the ticket would lose us New Hampshire

During the primaries he did worse in New Hampshire against Bush in a poll than all the other top tier primary candidates against Bush.

I don't know what drives a person to a level of psychosis where they think Dean would be a good choice of vp for John Kerry.

[Bucky]

13. "Psychosis"? Are you nuts? Being pro-Dean is not psychotic

It's a tad naive, or at least extremely chauvanistic. But it's hardly a sign of psychosis. Jeeeze, what a low blow.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

18. Well, if you notice, we seldom say bad things about Clark.

Several of us have a bunch of things lined up that we were too classy to use at this time. However, you must want us to do so. I don't like Clark, but I have not made a point of it. Most here have ignored the attacks, because we don't especially want Dean to be VP.

The infighting with you guys and Edwards folks is getting ridiculous.

[janx]

20. I don't know; I think it's kind of funny. As if anybody on this

board has anything to do with the VP decision.

Now THAT'S naive.

[madfloridian]

21. Isn't it? I think if this continues.......

I will post some things I have had too much "psychotic, chauvinistic" class to post.

Hey, I am so tired of being called names....I might lose all my class.

[janx]

22. Many people are too naive to realize that they have just been

manipulated into accepting the status quo, that their votes mattered one hell of a lot less than they imagined, and that their opinions mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the VP pick.

Yet they argue endlessly, day and night, about things they can do nothing about.

[madfloridian]

24. How right you are! It sounds so foolish, doesn't it?

:hi:

One thing about the Dean supporters, we know his goals are for the future as a whole. We are not wearing blinders, and we do NOT feel the need to call others names....as if that would make a difference.

[janx]

27. When it gets that vile, it has little to do with anything except

some farts and giggles on a message board--any message board will do. It has nothing to do with anything important.

[madfloridian]

28. Yep.

It is just unreal.

[madfloridian]

23. You also say "politically imbecilic". Good grief, you are so angry.

This original post was not an attack, just a post. I don't agree with it,but I don't have to attack.

[madfloridian]

19. That was a nice try, too. "Naive and Chauvinistic"

Why not just call us psychotic as well. These are almost personal attacks, I would say.

[madfloridian]

17. You should be ashamed of that statement. "level of psychosis?"

There is a whole hell of lot more to that story about Bush polling so good against Dean in NH. I just lost what respect I had. He is a man working 6 days a week or longer, never complaining, and always praising Kerry.

Shame on you. This is exactly what is wrong with this damn party now. It is what is wrong with our country. Make fun of anyone who makes a difference to make sure our own candidate gets more attention. That is exactly what this is about.

I post about Dean, NOT because I think he will be VP, because he is important to the country and keeping a lot of people involved.

This post was really totally out of line and unnecessary.

[Voltaire]

36. John Kerry doesn't deserve to have Dean on his ticket

There, I said it. It needed to be said so I did. Come January 20, 2005, we will see how much everyone enjoys the status quo. I'll vote for Kerry but I must say

GO KERRY! And take the DLC with you!

[lojasmo]

35. psychosis?

That is the singlemost ignorant thing I've seen on this board (aside from some disruptors' comments) Outrageous.

[JI7]

11. putting John Kerry on the ticket will win us New Hampshire

[MontecitoDem]

16. Bravo!

Best post of the day!

[madfloridian]

25. "level of psychosis" "politically imbecilic" "chauvinistic"

Called all that on one thread that simply asked a question. What a load of fear and bitterness some must carry around with them. Must get my articles ready for tomorrow. What a shame.

I would never call people names like that, and most here would not.

[madfloridian]

26. Dupe...self-deleted. Posted twice.

.

[theboss]

34. Kerry is from Massachusetts

Half of NH now seems to be Mass transplants. Kerry should be able to make a move there without help (if such a thing is even possible; I don't have the numbers).

[no name no slogan]

38. Who cares about NH? What about the rust belt?

OH is ripe for the picking, if only Kerry decided to talk like a Democrat on the economic issues, instead of like a DLCer.

If Kerry can win all the states Gore won (excluding FL) AND OH, he will have a Florida- (and theft-) proof margin of victory.

[FrenchieCat]

59. It's Bush's War, Stupid...

That's what this election will be about....not winning a state...but about winning on an issue......

Read this. It's an excellent article from the prospect....not included as part of the Presstitutes Corp......

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=7927

The Last Hurdle
John Kerry's biggest problem -- still -- is the national security gap. Here's how he can close it.
By Kenneth S. Baer
Web Exclusive: 06.23.04

Print Friendly | Email Article

In Washington, the only question on anyone's mind is: WWJD -- What Will John Do? Everyone has a theory about whom John Kerry will pick (or should pick) as his running mate, and journalists are scrambling for any angle on the story that they can find.

Last Friday, The Washington Post ran one of the most interesting accounts of where Kerry's thinking may or may not be. While the article was filled with rampant speculation by a panoply of unnamed sources, one observation stuck out. According to the Post: "Friends say Kerry believes he has passed a national security threshold with voters that has freed him to tap a vice presidential candidate who complements him in other ways."

If these "friends" of Kerry were really his friends, they would inform him that, sadly, this is not the case. In fact, the only thing keeping George W. Bush in this race is that John Kerry has not yet met this "national security threshold" with the electorate. Voters still give the President a commanding lead on the questions of who can best protect the nation from terrorists and who is a stronger, more patriotic leader. Fortunately for Kerry, these sentiments say more about the Democratic party -- and voters' lingering doubts about Democrats and defense -- than they do about the candidate. Kerry has enough time to close this national security gap -- and must close it if he hopes to beat Bush this fall.

Despite one question on a recent Washington Post-ABC News poll that showed Kerry with a one-point lead over Bush on the question of "whom do you trust to do a better job of handling the U.S. campaign against terrorism," data within that same poll and in others show that the security gap stubbornly persists.


MUCH MORE AT THE SITE, including the polling data that brings home the point...

[jsw_81]

60. Maybe, but we'd lose Ohio, Florida, Arkansas, Oregon, Nevada etc.

Face it: Swing voters do NOT like Howard Dean. Putting Dean on the ticket would be the biggest mistake of Kerry's career.

[madfloridian]

61. Zogby poll graph.

Speaks for itself. Likely voters.

[jsw_81]

62. Those groups almost always vote Democratic

Of course they would support Kerry/Dean. But what about swing voters in the suburbs? What about soccer moms, NASCAR dads etc? There's no way they'd want Howard "The Screamer" Dean anywhere near the presidency.

[madfloridian]

63. Compare numbers in each subgroup.

He won't be VP, so take a deep breath and relax. Just don't make baldfaced statements and not back them up with data.

You are just spouting rhetoric, I presented fact. Do you have some data to back up your contention that soccer moms and nascar dads and suburb folks hate Dean?

I would appreciate it.