Dean vs. Clark - a tiny little thought to ponder

[Hawkeye-X]

All I want to do is show you something. Then you can think about it.

Dean: 30 plus years of being a Democrat. His parents were Republicans, yes, but his mother just recently switched. Has had strings of victories on the last 10 elections. Dean has civilian and executive experience as a governor of Vermont.

Clark: 4 months of being a Democrat. Previously a registered Independent. No experience in civilian matters whatsoever. Voted for Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Gore. Praised Chimpy McCokespoon as recent as 2001, and has been a pro-war CNN analyst before his switch to anti-war during a Congressional hearing (while a draft Clark was still in progress). Controversial man in regards to Kosovo. Supports the well-known failure of supply-side economics (voodoo economics sound familiar?)

Hawkeye-X

[BeyondGeography]

1. Simplistic flamebait of the year award n/t

[burning bush]

60. Then refute what was said. Simple, right? /nt

[BeyondGeography]

68. See post #23 below

among all the others smacking this hanging curve ball out of the park.

[pasadenaboy]

2. I support Dean

but Clark is my second choice. He would be a fine candidate as well, not as good as Dean in my opinion, but I don't think we need to savage the guy.

[LiberalBushFan]

3. Dean supporters are so smart and interesting

Thank you.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

5. Hey, seizing an opportunity is a good thing, right?

But what was the Congressional hearing during which Clark supposedly switched to anti-war?

[windansea]

6. go here

read the debunking
http://www.ex-deaniacsforclark.com/MainPage.htm

[tedoll78]

7. Okay..

I was formerly a Dean man, and then a Clark man, and now a Dean man once again..

I was turned-off when Clark fans at the Clark blog attacked Dean fans and Dean, and this turns me off too.

This is an unnecessary post. We can do better than this.

[Dookus]

9. Thank you tedoll...

You'd THINK they could do better, but it's apparent they can't.

[JVS]

10. If you don't clean up those nicknames your post will be deleted

[tedoll78]

13. Thanks for the heads-up!

:P

[Jack_Dawson]

8. Save it

The "he's only been a democrat x-amount of years" argument is tired and boring.

Military = non-partisan...get over it.

[JVS]

11. What is so lame about being a dedicated party member?

[Progressive420]

Absolutely Nothing...

Unless your in the military because your suppose to be non partisan in the military

[JVS]

18. That's not quite true, I lived near a military base in Germany.

Would you like to know what non-partisan radio programs were broadcast by the Armed Forces Radio to entertain the troops?

An hour of Limbaugh followed by an hour of Dr. Laura.

The military is not isolated from politics.

[Hawkeye-X]

14. And how do you KNOW this is non-partisan?

Can I remind you of the military votes on * and Gore in 2000? Hmm?

Most of the military votes went to *.

Hawkeye-X

[JVS]

20. Don't forget those who encouraged illegally late military ballots

[Toucano]

12. You have a few incorrect facts.

1. Political affiliation is a state of mind not a piece of paper.
2. Arkansas only recently allowed voters to register by party.
3. Clark has plenty of experience in "civilian matters". Meeting the needs of soldiers in one's command is not unlike meeting the needs of constituents.
4. You got one right! Thanks to Clark telling us who he voted for.
5. Clark's praise was no more glowing than many Democratic members of congress.
6. Clark was not a pro-war CNN analyst.
7. Clark's Kosovo record is widely praised, controversial to some maybe. A lot of Kosovars praise him.
8. Clark does not support supply-side economics.

details are available at http://www.clark04.com

Thank you.

[Hawkeye-X]

15. Sorry

I've looked at his policies, they're all fluff, no substance, and I'm being honest with you.

Hawkeye-X

[Toucano]

21. No sorry necessary.

and I'm being honest with you.

I'm not quite convinced of that, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. :)

[windansea]

22. right

that's why you posted this garbage...cuz you have a problem with his policies

if you've really read them tell us your concerns

[BeyondGeography]

23. Howard Dean disagrees

He just ripped off Clark's $100 billion job creation program this week.

[Hawkeye-X]

71. Oh, please provide proof.

That Dean ripped off Clark's job creation program...

Time starts now...

Tick.. Tock...

Hawkeye-X

[Bread and Circus]

40. and I just woke up from a sweet dream, thank you...

[Skwmom]

53. Clark is a brilliant man of substance.

Dean on the other hand seems to have Bush's frat boy mentality.

[JVS]

17. Political affiliation is neither a state of mind nor a piece of paper!

It is being involved with the party and working towards the goals of the party. Dean has a history of affiliation with the party, Clark does not

[Toucano]

25. I disagree.

My parents always voted for Democratic candidates yet never lifted a finger or donated a dime. Discussing issues was about the extent of their activism. They even voted for Carter in 1980!

For many people, it is a lot like religion. Some worship regularly, help with the bake sales, etc. Others attend service on an odd holiday here and there, but still consider themselves of the faith. Still others CHANGE faiths when they find one that fits them better.

[JVS]

29. Do you think your parents should be presidential candidates given their...

lack of work within the party?

Would it be appropriate to make a man who attends only Christmas and Easter service the Pope?

The reason I ask this is that I think people are conflating being accepted as a member of a party, and I can accept Clark as a new member, with being accepted as a leader of the party, something which I believe Clark could be eventually, but first must establish some kind of credentials within the party.

[Toucano]

58. That's a whole new can of worms.

On so many levels...LOL!

Of course they shouldn't be president, but they were unqualified regardless of party affiliation. But I accept your point.

My point was that a lot of loyal party members are just living in the trenches, rather than working in the trenches. So I do see it as a state of mind. Sometimes rational, sometimes not.

The church has a lot of specific requirements for becoming Pope, so a casual attendee could never be chosen. Our constitution, by contrast, has far fewer requirements. It allows for just such a candidacy as Clark's. I believe the constitution very wisely does not require election to lower office as a condition for the presidency.

But I've learned something else from you I think.

It seems you equate being elected president with being head of the party. While I understand the person who holds the highest office has a lot of influence on the party, I don't consider him or her the head of the party. It may be technically correct, but doesn't show up in practice.

I don't consider GWB to be the head of the Republicans. I don't think Clinton commanded all the democrats. Clearly, being president couldn't help Carter get Tip O'Neill to march in line. I don't consider Tom Daschle or Ted Kennedy to be heads of the party now, although they hold senior posts. JFK and LBJ were hearty rivals.

The Trojan horse theories regarding Clark simply don't work out. At least no one has ever adequately explained how they are supposed to work out.

I really think the average voter doesn't care about internal party power struggles. The average voter is electing a president. They are going to select the person they believe to be most qualified for the job. Clark and Dean both have a lot of genuine support. If Clark's newness alone tips the balance to Dean for some voters, that's just the way it's going to be. However, to suggest that there is something sinister, misleading, or insincere about Clark's Democratic identification is, to me, wrong. It is exactly how Bush hopes to neutralize Clark.

[JVS]

64. Yes, I consider elected presidents to be heads of parties.

Generally what I see is that when a party controls the white house, the president sets the tempo. Other views within the party generally defer to the President. Gephardt's opposition to nafta being a notable exception. In order to avoid public embarrassment on issues of disagreement the president and his party colleagues generally plan to work together, for instance we do not see the Republicans getting bills passed that Bush will veto. Presidents who have dissention within their party breaking out into public view, like Carter, are generally in big political trouble.

One of the big problems for our party in the last 3 years has been the lack of a high positioned official who can act as the leader of the party. This is a result of our lack of power in all branches of the government.

As far as electing presidential candidate according to the constitution we could nominate anyone, even Vermin Supreme, for president. But as people who are concerned about the future of the party we should take special consideration to know what we are getting. That is where my problem with Clark is. I don't think he's a republican plant, but I don't know how he will work with the other branches of government because he's never been in an environment where he's dealt with different factions of the Democratic party, and on a larger level the different branches of government. With the other candidates we can all look back and see how they do this, but Clark is an unknown quantity.

[Toucano]

74. Your position is so much more reasonable

Than the post that started this thread.

I can totally concede that Clark does not have a legislative or executive record to predict future performance. Some voters will be uncomfortable with that, as you are.

As a military leader, however, Clark has worked within the political system. He's worked through ideologically different administrations and managed to excel and accomplish important things for his "constituency". He's worked with the allies in NATO, respected differences and reinforced common goals. He helped negotiate the Dayton Peace accord. For me, these things speak as loudly about the direction he will lead the nation (and the party) as other candidates' voting records do. For some, it won't be enough. No candidate is perfect.

As for Vermin Supreme, I understood him to be essentially a satirist and not genuinely interested in leading the party or the country. You are correct, though. We could nominate him if that's what we wanted. I don't see Arnold and Vermin and Wesley as really being in the same classification. The first is a puppet, the second is a clown, and the last is a leader.

I really appreciate your insight and am glad I didn't ignore this thread.

[k_blagburn]

37. You Need To Check Your Facts

Gen Clark was a career military man. Being a veteran myself I can tell you that when in the military you cannot actively work for any political campaign or party. So that argument is as transparent as Dean.









www.veteransforclark2004.us

[JVS]

44. My facts are fine. Clark had several years while retired to get involved

He found time to speak at a Republican fundraiser. Maybe he should have been with the Democrats.

[Clark Can WIN]

52. under your standard then, Clark does fine

while in the military he promoted many democratic core values and goals including health care, improved and continued education, greater standards of living, environmental issues, child care, diversity and sensitivity training and domestic violence programs.

You said "working towards the goals of the party". I thought these were "goals of the party"

No?

[JVS]

54. I would say more immediate goals such as helping in elections...

or raising funds for democrats. James Carville for instance or just a local party secretary would be promoting the goals of the party.

To use the communist nomenclature Clark's support of better housing etc. would make him a fellow traveler or a Democratic sympathizer. Sorry, but he hasn't made his bones.

[Clark Can WIN]

61. ummmmmmmmmm ...... so only a POLITICIAN

satisfies your requirements.

Blech. I'll take Clark over a stack of waffles any day.

[JVS]

65. Yes, the top political job should go to a politician

The top job in any field should go to someone with experience within that field.

Should the Surgeon general be a CEO?

Should the Supreme allied commander be a lawyer?

What is wrong with saying that the President should be a politician?

[Clark Can WIN]

67. because it wasn't always this way

and it wasn't meant to be. I want something better. I want a leader with a brilliant mind and a good heart. I don't want a professional gum flapper/poll taker.

[JVS]

70. Why do you have such a negative view of politicians

it is similar to the prejudice some have against clark when they call him a bloody barbaric war criminal.

You should show a little more respect for our elected representatives

[Clark Can WIN]

75. I think politicians are great for the house, and the senate

and other legislative positions. I don't like politicians in executive positions.

on edit; AS A RULE

[dogman]

76. We have a politician now.

A quite successful one at that. What this country needs is a leader. Chicago has a Democratic Mayor who runs a bigger operation than Vermont. I wouldn't want him as President. His Democratic Roots go deeper than most Democrats. He gets along with Bush and talks good about him to get what his city needs. That's what politicians do.

[JVS]

79. George W. Bush is more a heir to his father than a politician

He never worked his way up, he is a perfect example of someone who entered politics at the very highest levels and is not qualified.

[pocoloco]

16. Don't want to make your head hurt but here is something else

to ponder:

Silver Spoon or Silver Star?

[wtmusic]

27. Democrat or Democrite?

:silly:

[Dookus]

19. Cool...

in only four months as a Democrat, Clark has become MORE liberal than Dean!

I'll take that kind of Democrat any day.

[LiberalBushFan]

42. haha exactly

and what does that say about Dean?

[incapsulated]

24. Why not..

Reduce the sum of all Clark flames into Haiku form? It would be even shorter and at least show some creativity.

[JVS]

26. Ok

Recent Democrat
Not sure if platform rings true
He has no record

[incapsulated]

31. Better but..

I challenge you to cram in the Kosovo and voting record stuff! :)

Or, he could just do:

Dean: Good
Clark: Bad

for ultimate brevity.

[JVS]

39. The only part of the voting record that concerns me is...

that Clark supporters have to use he voted for clinton and gore as some kind of proof of a record. That is a very weak connection to the party. With every other candidate they have examples of supporting the interests of the Democratic party. Lieberman has a great record on civil rights, Gephardt fought Nafta tooth and nail and so on. What bothers me is seeing "He voted for Clinton and Gore" used as though it is somehow an equal ammount of commitment to Democratic interests as Gephardts battle against Nafta. It just doesn't measure up and is not worthy of our nomination.

[incapsulated]

77. It doesn't concern me

I don't have a "Real Democrat" litmus test. 10 years of voting Democratic is good enough for me. I base my opinion on the platform, the person and the chances that a candidate has in a given election. If I honestly believed that Clark was some sort of Republican stealth candidate or something, as a lifelong Democrat, there is no way I would support him. Nothing I have read or heard has given that idea any credence in my mind at all, including his voting record. I wasn't alone in wishing I had an alternative when Clark came along, and I'm very happy he did.

[tedoll78]

33. I have one.

My first Clark flame haiku:
Unelectable.
Dean has snowball's chance in hell.
Oooh - a uniform!

Number two:
Dean just cannot win.
Even though he's beating me.
Hey - I'm from the South!

.....

Now some Dean flame haikus, to be fair. Number one:
No experience.
Not really a Democrat.
We will win - give up.

Number two:
We have all this cash!
Unify the party now.
You can be the VEEP.

.....

If we can't stop the infighting, I might as well make fun of it..

[incapsulated]

38. Those are pretty good!

I say we force everyone to come up with more creative flames to be allowed to start a thread at all. This forum is getting more redundant every day.

;)

[tedoll78]

45. Thanks..

I'm trying to keep the mood light.

I'm praying that as much as we fight here right now, I have a theory about what will happen once a nominee is determined:

People will be disappointed. Some with threaten to sit-out, vote Green, etc. And then the nominee will begin to fight Bush. And Bush will make nasty claims about the Dem nominee. And people will get pissed at Bush again and, in order to hurt Bush, pick-up in their support for the nominee. They'll "come home," basically.

At least, that's what I'm hoping for. *fingers crossed*

[Leilani]

28. Party Purity

will keep you warm when Shrub wins in a landslide against Dean.

Instead of posting flamers, why don't you get hold of an electoral map, add up the numbers & try to figure a way your guy can win.

[JVS]

32. There is more than the map to this. We could run Jack Kemp and....

split the Republicans. That doesn't mean that we should.

[Leilani]

43. If you are equating Kemp's

political beliefs to wes Clark's, then what's the point of discussing the whole thing?

[JVS]

48. I'm not equating their beliefs. I'm just looking at the map.

Like you told me to.

[tedoll78]

36. Okay..

Gore states + Ohio. 280EVs. There.. I've figured a way.

BTW.. where'd you get that crystal ball? Mine's broken..

[Leilani]

50. Why do you assume that Dean

automatically takes all the Gore states?

Gore was an incumbent VP after 8 yrs of peace & prosperity.

Gore had foreign policy experience & military service.

Now the Dems have to run against an incumbent Pres with all his power, during "wartime."

I think it will be a very tough race & maybe try to be competitive in additional states like W.Va, Arkansas, Louisiana, etc.

[tedoll78]

51. I don't assume.

Read my post again. You asked for an electoral map scenario in which Dean could conceivably win. I gave one to you. That's all.

[k_blagburn]

30. Think about this.

Dean On Corporate Tax Loopholes!
A Boston Globe article on 12/27/03 revealed that Howard Dean cut corporate taxes by a whopping 44% in his last three years as governor by giving out corporate tax credits.

Dean authorized $80.1 million in corporate tax credits, in the name of 'economic growth.' However, most of the credits failed to generate any economic growth, or any jobs, for the state of Vermont. In the end, the audit of the program determined that the corporate tax credits "cost the state more money than they had brought in." (Boston Globe, 12/12/03)

Dean On Balancing The Budget!
"The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. "It would be tough but we could do it," he said."

Dean On Medicare!
Dean has said he supported an earlier Republican-backed, balanced-budget effort in 1995 that would have cut $270 billion from Medicare..."

"Dean also supported a balanced-budget plan two years later, which cut $200 billion from Medicare..."

WITH DEMOCRATS LIKE DEAN WHO NEEDS REPUBLICANS.



:dem:


SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
ELECT ONE
CLARK04

[BeyondGeography]

34. You're talking about Dean's actual record

That has no relevance to this campaign.

But thanks for the reminder anyway, kb.

[JVS]

41. At least Dean has an actual record

[BeyondGeography]

47. One which has precious little to do

with who his followers believe him to be.

And what's his foreign policy record, anyway?

[JVS]

49. First I need to know Clark's political record

[dfong63]

69. Clark's foreign policy record - he made war on various countries

... wars that had nothing to do with defending the US.

that is not a record that qualifies him to president.

[dogman]

78. Generals don't make war-politicians do.

Prosecuting the war was his job and he was successful in saving 1.5 million lives, but what would that mean/

[Dookus]

35. or think about this....

Dean won his last gubernatorial election with 50.4% of the vote. The people who know him best and longest BARELY elected him. Previously, he'd garnered over 70%.

Oh wait... he brings NEW people in to vote. I guess he'd have to.

And congratulations. This is my very first thread in which I say anything bad about Howard Dean. Of course, I use facts and statistics instead of vague impressions and drive-by slams. But if people want to continue to play this silly game, I'm gonna join in.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

55. The reason he "BARELY" got elected

was because of the Civil Unions bill he signed into Vermont law. There were A LOT of people who were angry with him over signing that piece of landmark legislation, so much so that he had to wear a bullet proof vest while he was on the campaign trail. NO OTHER political figurehead had ever been re-elected after signing a pro-gay union law into effect-- which is further evidence of his good standing with the people of Vermont.

Your "facts and statistics" are barely any better than the "vague impressions" of which you speak.

[Dookus]

59. They are facts....

I understand they're not favorable to your candidate, though.

But the fact is his vaunted ability to "bring new people to the party" didn't seem to work very well in liberal Vermont, did it?

on edit:

In the same election that Dean got 50.4%, Bernie Sanders got just under 70%.

[Clark Can WIN]

46. This irrisponsible flamebait is ludicrous in it's flawedness

The Military is made up of civilians and their fanilies. Clark has fought hard for child care, better schools, better housing standards, and better healthcare for the troops in his care and their families. He also fought for continued vocational and university training and opportunities for the whole family as well as expanding diversity and sensitivity training along with domestic abuse programs.

No civilian experience my red ass.


Although he did outwardly praise * in the ONE republican fundraiser in which he agreed to speak it was in the context of the Afgan conflict which Dean praised AND he also took some serious backswipes at them in the same speech. But I'm sure you knew that.

You must have not been watching the same CNN I was, because that is when I first noticed Wesley Clark. I was PSYCHED because there was only one voice of reason as far as I could see at that time, only one person with military experience that was talking about the war in a clear and sane manner. It was clear that Clark disagreed with the Bush doctrine and their tactics and the war in general. But whaddaya know, he managed to do it INTELLIGENTLY...... without coming off like some dry drunk on a rampage kinda mad man.

Go to clark04.com and tell me where the EVIDENCE is that he supports "voodoo" economics. Otherwise you are just lying.

[Toucano]

63. You just made me realize something.

The Military is made up of civilians and their fanilies. Clark has fought hard for child care, better schools, better housing standards, and better healthcare for the troops in his care and their families. He also fought for continued vocational and university training and opportunities for the whole family as well as expanding diversity and sensitivity training along with domestic abuse programs.

I've known all of those things, but I just figured out that Clark probably has more first-hand experience with working-class people and their daily problems than just about any "office holder" could. That's what the military is after all; working-class people.

Thanks!

[Clark Can WIN]

73. You got it baby!

it's the truth. He knows more about being on the underside of prosperity than many of the other others. He's done more to personally help more working class, one on one, than most of the others. It's a nice resume point.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

57. Watch it with the supporter nicknames.

They're a violation of the rules, and might hurt the sensitive feelings of the people who run around here slandering everyone.

You need to edit them out so that your post doesn't get deleted.

[necso]

62. OK

Point taken --- I think --- but it won't last. Thanks.

[Melsky]

66. I like Clark and Dean

but posts like this don't help me decide at all. It just makes me feel irritated.

[dogman]

72. think bigger thoughts

Start with facts. Fellowship with OMB. Diplomatic work with State Dept. on Kosovo Accords. Successful entrepreneur. Was not pro-war at CNN. I know I watched him, and first payed attention because I was amazed that a General was telling the truth.That is why he was pulled from CNN.Hearings predate draft. Read his books (the first was printed several years ago). Controversial because he saved 1.5 million lives? Where is support of supply-side economics? Show me.

[maddezmom]

80. wow, first time I've seen this here

NOT!!