Dean quote: people on welfare "don't have any self esteem..."

[LiberalBushFan]

people on welfare "don't have any self esteem, otherwise they'd be working"

Could someone explain this?

I saw this quote while reading Dean's resume:
http://tony4clark.forclark.com/story/2003/11/18/145849/27

also appears here:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0523-03.htm

[LuminousX]

1. There sure is a lot of people asking for Dean's phrases to be explained

In second grade, Dean was believed to have uttered he hated Billy Eikeson. The Eikeson family yesterday released a press release asking the governor to please explain himself.

[mzmolly]

33. LOL...

:)

[Bucky]

65. Actually, Dean said a smart thing in a stupid way. I've worked w/ welfare

Actually, Dean said a smart thing in a stupid way. I've worked w/ welfare recipients and this is almost true. But Dean, being the child of an unbelieveably affluent family, got the formulation backwards. People able to work, but who are on welfare, are robbed of their self-esteem and if they got jobs they start to build their self respect back up.

There's two problems here that Dean didn't touch on.

The first problem is that becoming a long-term jobless person is not the cause, but usually the sympton of other problems--lack of skills, lack of experience, lack of education. Often there are other even more basic debilitations--homelessness, drug & alcohol addiction in the family (not necessarily the head of household), and lack of core social skills.

All of these feed on each other and feed the monster called low self-esteem. Effective re-employment programs address these matters. People who don't need help in these areas usually have better self esteem and have little trouble finding employment when they're fired or laid off.

The second problem is that many people on welfare aren't able to work. In society we tend to equate self worth with working. When people at a party ask you what do you do, you'll answer with your job title. That's crap. I do lots of things besides teach.

Next time some one asks me "So, what do you do?" I'll answer "I write poetry, I drive a bigassed gas guzzler, I masterbate, and I make my own pasta. What do you do?" But I digress.

The habit of having contempt for people on welfare is a pretty destructive thing in our society. Everyone has value. But not having useful work feeds into that lack of self respect. It's something to be concerned about when lots of people are out of work, even if the economy overall is doing well. But the solution is fixing the problems causing it, not scorning the people who suffer from it.

(By the way, I was just kidding about the masterbating thing. I never do that... :eyes: )

[TLM]

103. Well when you read what Dean said the next day...

it really shows he was saying pretty much what you just said.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cat M.]

89. Why?

Do you think that Karl Rove is going to carefully quote all Dean's remarks in context when he runs ads showing how Dean lacks compassion, including for people on welfare?

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sujan]

101. what the heck?

I thought republicans wanted to do away with welfare.

You know that being 'responsible' meme.

[TLM]

104. Rove won;t have to... since so many "dems" are doing it for him

Rove will be able to just quote these so called dems who are attacking Dean.

[HFishbine]

130. Do U

think we should nominate a canididate based on how nice we expect Rove to be to him? Are you suggesting that Clark would be agreeable enough to Rove that there will be nothing like:

1) Clark was fired from his command

2) Clark praised Bush and his administration

3) Clark was a paid Washington lobbyist

4) Clark has no governing experience

and so on, and so on. Seems to me the WWRD game can be played against any candidate.

[helleborient]

3. There is nothing real about this...you should be embarrassed...

Here's part of "Dean's Resume" from this site quoted:

LAW ENFORCEMENT:

I admit that I abused alcohol, smoke marijuana, and general was a misfit during the early years of my "adult" life.

MILITARY:

I had my private physician write a letter to my draft board that I had a bad back and could not serve in the Military. The draft board accepted my private physician''s report without making me get a military examination as is what usually happens for the "average Joe." The week after getting my deferment, I went skiing.




If you believe this is a real document, I have serious concerns about your fact-checking.

It's really laughable anyone would believe this as anything but a cynical, sarcastic creation of Clark campaigners.

[LiberalBushFan]

4. i know the first source is not credible

that's why i posted the commondreams URL.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

105. Dean apologizes for "welfare" comment, attacks other candidate for same

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deancrit.html

MONTPELIER - Republican gubernatorial candidate Ruth Dwyer isn't the only candidate whose remarks about welfare recipients have irked low-income advocates and those on welfare. In the last week, Dwyer has been roundly criticized for comments she made about women on welfare. In an interview with The Burlington Free Press Dwyer said, "I know a lot of women on welfare, and believe me, they're out with their boyfriends and the kids are stuck at home in front of the TV with a bunch of Cheerios."

One of her critics has been Democratic Gov. Howard Dean, who has not been immune to such problems in his tenure.

During one of his weekly news conferences in 1993, Dean was being questioned about some of his welfare reform proposals, when he uttered comments that drew sharp criticism from advocates and welfare recipients. In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support, Dean said: "Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"
Dean apologized the next day, saying, "Those remarks really stepped over the line."

Earlier this week, Dean defended his criticism of Dwyer, saying his comments were not nearly as disparaging as Dwyer's and he never intended to contribute to the negative stereotyping of people on welfare.

[mikehiggins]

11. Okay, why claim it is Clark supporters?

Sort of an odd charge to make without evidence.

Do you have the evidence needed, or is this another "second cousin of an aunt of a brother-in-law of the candidate's hair stylist" kind of thing?

[mikehiggins]

13. Whoops! My bad

since the quote was found on a Clark supporter's website I would also suspect it was a Clark supporter who displayed it, even if he didn't write it.

Sorry for the mistake. I usually read things more closely before I shoot off my big mouth, er, keyboard.

[robbedvoter]

37. It's a REAL documented document - the first person is a literary gimmick

but every fact in there is documented

[helleborient]

69. But it's not a "Dean Resume" which is what was being asked about...

It's a campaign slam...and posted on a pro-Clark website.

[LiberalBushFan]

73. he's replying to the guy who thinks it's an attempted forgery

as opposed to the parody that it actually is

[helleborient]

70. And plenty of quotes are taken out of context...

Read on in this thread...

[kerry-is-my-prez]

87. Why do you attack the messenger instead of the message?

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

97. Lets go hunt down those Clark Supporters.... they must be stopped

n/t

[helleborient]

5. Apparently this originated with Salon...

Here is a more full quote:

"They surely don't know that during Vermont's welfare-to-work debate in 1993, Dean snapped that certain "recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they would be working," a comment he later apologized for."


"Certain recipients" is much different than what Commondreams references...or the "Dean resume" references...and certainly neither mentions an apology.

Clear attacks here willfully under-quoting and leaving no reference trail to the original.

I did think Commondreams was usually better than that.

[Cat M.]

84. I still think it's despicable

and absurd to make such a statement. There are plenty of people with low self-estem who ARE working. I'd say that people who can work but aren't often suffer from low self-esteem but this is not WHY they aren't working and that's the despicable part of the statement.

It suggests that somehow there's something wrong with "certain people" on welfare (which ones are those? The single mothers Dean cut benefits for?) and that they could work if they wanted to.

I had a friend on welfare. She was divorced with two daughters. She qualified for daycare assistance so that she could go get a job at McDonald's while allowing a stranger to take care of her two children. She chose to stay on welfare because either way she would have still been poor.

It's funny that the government will pay poor women (via childcare credit) to go work at McDonald's but they balk at paying a woman to stay home and raise her own children.

I just find the lack of compassion in Dean's statement astonishing.

[TLM]

113. Dean's comment was not about people with low self-esteem

but rather that being stuck on welfare robs one of the self esteem.


You may have had a friend on welfare... but I grew up in a single mother welfare home and was there until the age of 16. I've lived it. I know first hand what it is like to be broke for the month after the 4th when rent and what utilities we could afford were paid. I know what it is like to be teased at school and to not have all the nice clothes and stuff that other kids had. I also know what it is like to have a paper route, not for my spending money, but so that my mom and brothers and sister could afford to eat something other than ramen noodles.


I'm not offended one bit by Dean's comments.

[maddezmom]

86. ouch

seems slightly insensative, glad he apologized for that remark.

[TLM]

106. "Certain recipients" is also misleading...

sicne Dean was specifically addressing those who are on welfare as a permanant means of support.

[LiberalBushFan]

6. ok, here's some more context

so it's not as bad as it seemed, but i hope to hell he doesn't screw up like that again if he is our nominee:

"Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"

He apologized the next day and clarified what he was getting at:

"What I meant was being on welfare can be really, really hard and the transition to work from welfare helps people feel fulfilled in their lives."

[helleborient]

7. This was 10 years ago as well...

If you base your decision on one comment made 10 years ago...should we dig up comments from other candidates from their past to help the decision?

[BootinUp]

9. The repugs will

do the digging for us...

[Le Taz Hot]

58. Why should they?

You've done all their "research" for them. Kkkarl Rove thanks you.

[RetroLounge]

72. Obviously they already have...

eom

[LiberalBushFan]

10. for example

bringing up who Clark voted for in 1988? If you can find some Clark quotes like within the past 10 years, I'd certainly be interested. I do want to switch to the best candidate if it's not my current one; candidates aren't baseball teams.

[LuminousX]

18. Are you saying bringing up Clark's 1988 vote is wrong?

Then you are being hypocritical if you think a decade old quote has any bearing. If you are comparing the two, calling them similar, and saying one is wrong, then they both are wrong.

If they aren't similar, then one can be right to do and the other wrong to do. What criteria are you using?

[LiberalBushFan]

20. obviously not

since i was the one making the comparison.
I'm confident that Clark's views are very different now and have been different for quite some time. Now I'm looking for a reason to believe that Dean has changed his views before his Presidential bid.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. It sure would be nice if Dean weren't quoted out of context all the time

Yes, Dean was speaking about welfare recipients and made that statement, along with many others that fully explained his meaning. You can't honestly get a good idea of what someone is saying unless you see their quote/statement/speech in it's entirety rather than little snippets.

As a single mother who used to be on welfare myself...I agree with the statement entirely. The old Vermont welfare system used to be a trap, just as it was everywhere else in the country. Getting stuck in that trap does a real number on your self esteem. I don't think anyone can argue that fact.

Dean was saying that being on welfare causes low self esteem. If a person has something go wrong in their lives and find themselves having to go on welfare you do lose a lot of your self esteem. Once you've lost that it plays a big part in keeping you on welfare and out of the workforce. That's a huge part of the welfare trap.

I might also add that thanks to Dean's vision of welfare reform, I am no longer on welfare and haven't been for quite some time. I wasn't "kicked off" or forced to do demeaning type jobs. I met with a case manager and we spent about 4 hours discussing my goals, barriers, abilities, needs, etc. We came up with a plan designed specifically for me that addressed my person needs while helping me work towards my goals. Whatever help I needed, I got. Every barrier I had was immediately addressed and I got incredible support. This kind of welfare actually helps people reach long term/permanent independence. It's been wonderful and I'm very thankful for it.

All welfare reform is NOT created equal. Vermont's program works FOR welfare recipients, not with the goal of just kicking people off assistance.

[SEAburb]

21. Dean's statement was overly harsh and shows how detacted

he is from real people and the lives they live. Dean was just parroting the kind of crap elitist say behind closed doors and he let it slip out.

[Hep]

22. He's so detached

that he provided healthcare to nearly everyone in his state. What a bastard.

[SEAburb]

23. the change the subject ploy, how original //nt

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. Have you ever been on welfare?

If you haven't, then you are completely clueless about what that population of people think, want and feel. I've been there myself and I'm saying that I have NO problem with what Dean said.

[Kahuna]

76. Were you on welfare because you had no self esteem> or..

Did you have no self esteem because you were on welfare? I know lots of former welfare recipients. The lack of self esteem was caused by being on welfare. They didn't lack the self esteem and then elect to go on welfare.

[TLM]

117. That was Dean point....

that being trapped on welfare as a means of permanant support robs one of their self-esteem... not that lackign self esteem drives folks to sign up for welfare.

[Hep]

42. Who changed the subject?

There wasn't a point made, just some vague comment about him being detached as if YOU'RE a Vermonter. Are you a Vermonter?

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. I was a person on welfare myself and I don't think he was harsh

or detached. He spoke the truth rather than patronizing those on welfare. The worst part about having to get assistance is having people f*cking pity you. Real people on welfare don't want to be patronized or pitied, they want a way to get out of the trap. Dean gave Vermonters a way to get out of the trap.

[SEAburb]

39. are you the spokesperson for welfare recipients?

Other people may view Dean's remarks differently than you do, and of course, your a rabid Dean supporter. It doesn't matter what Dean says, you would never be critical of him.

[Hep]

43. There it is

This is how you talk to a Vermonter who was on welfare. Dismiss her readily. It's what we expect. And it proves my ongoing point that there is no such thing as "too low" when people go after Dean and his supporters.

[SEAburb]

49. It shows the objectivity of Dean supporters

When have you ever been critical of a Dean statement of policy?

[Hep]

51. Yes I have

been critical of a Dean policy. Any other brilliant questions?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

56. No I don't

Thanks for playing. You can get your crow on the way out.

I mean, PLEASE say the same thing four more times.

[TLM]

119. It begs the question... if Dean was so awful to people on welfare

way would KK support him?


Why would I support him?


And you did not answer the question... have you been on welfare or grown up in a welfare home?

[TLM]

115. Did you even look at who you were talking to?

She's FROM VERMONT and was a direct participant in the welfare system that Dean reformed.

Because of the reforms Dean put in place, she's out of the welfare trap.


So far that makes two people who have first hand experience with welfare system, who not only support Dean but also agree with the point Dean was making... one of whom is from Vermont.


Seems to me Dean is obviously more connected to real people and their lives than you.

[SEAburb]

129. So that justifies Dean's denigrating those on welfare

Dean's blanket statement that welfare recipients are products of low self esteem is a shallow and thoughtless way of discussing the issue.

And I'm truly glad the program worked for KK.

[Hep]

12. WOW! Who would have thought

a Dean quote on a Clark page would need explanation!

[CTLawGuy]

14. I have a good one for you

"George Bush and Dick Cheney are doing a great job!" -Clark at Republican fundraiser....

:eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. I don't care if he DID apologize for saying that.

That was a horrid and an extremely insensitive thing to say about people on welfare! Did he not think they felt bad enough having to be in that position in the first place? I'm sure every welfare recipient wants to be there, wants to spend their life doing nothing and just loves not being able to give their children the things they need in life. :grr: Only out of the mouth of a Silver Spoon fed person. Holy Cow, that is just disgusting. It's nice to know how he "really" feels. <sigh>

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. I'm not offended by it

nor was I offended by it the first time I heard about it...while I was on welfare. He was right. :shrug:

[robbedvoter]

47. Fine, but you don't speak for EVERYBODY on welfare

I was not on welfare, alsthough came close to contemplating it - and remembering the despair and the shame, to hear Park Ave masta Haward slapping me in the face like that...I don't appreciate it!

Master Howard Dean

by Ben Smith
http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage5.asp

Before Howard Dean was a country doctor, before he was the tight-fisted governor of Vermont or the angry champion of dispossessed Democrats, Howard Brush Dean III was a Madison Avenue baby.

[TLM]

122. Well then... why are you talking?

"I was not on welfare,"

Fine, but then you don't speak for ANYBODY on welfare


"alsthough came close to contemplating it - and remembering the despair and the shame,"

The despair and shame that result from being on welfare, which is exactly what Dean was talking about.

So why is he an awful elitest to mention those feelings, yet you're not when you mention them?

[LuminousX]

17. I adore the righteous indignation

More people wanting to jump in front of the train in order to cry out victim.

'Horrid', 'extremely insensitive' Obviously the hyperbolization of the outrage leaves little room for reaction to truely 'horrid' and 'extremely insensitive' comments made by Reagan regarding welfare queens.

Simply saying that welfare robs people of their self esteem isn't horrific. Such comments don't send people into suicidal spirals or even makes them feel less than human. It is addressing the issue at hand. The old system robbed people of dignity.

[Hep]

19. Welfare STILL robs people of dignity

Because welfare as we know it doesn't work as it should. Without providing health care, educational, and job opporunities across the board, the cycle of poverty continues to grow worse.

Dean understands that very well.

It's just amazing to me that people jump on this quote without even trying to figure out what Dean was getting at. People want to believe that Dean has malice in his heart towards the unemployed and the underpriveledged. They don't care that he wants to solve these problems. It's just amazing. And this is what I'm talking about. People sacrificing any semblance of integrity and why? To bash a guy? What the hell is going on?

[Hep]

28. Let this be proof

that when you talk seriously about issues, everyone hides, but if you say something inflammatory, you're guaranteed attention. This is DU in a nutshell these days.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

36. Not about me

but thanks for weighing in on this particular issue.

[LiberalBushFan]

41. well look at it this way

this is the Democratic Primary 2004 forum, so I wouldn't worry about it so much. We're mostly here to discuss who's ready to face Bush (and not say anything that could become the next "invented the internet"). If you're an ABBer that's the no 1 priority.

[Hep]

44. That's not why we;re mostly here

Let's get it straight. People are either here to defend Dean or attack him. COunt the number of threads on page one with Dean in the title.

[LiberalBushFan]

48. Yes, there are lots of threads about the frontrunner

of the Democratic primary, on the first page of the Democratic primary forum.

[Hep]

52. Doesn't seem like it should be a surprise does it?

:) Yet for some reason, nothing new ever gets discussed.

[SEAburb]

32. Dean's blaming the welfare victim is outrageous

How does Dean know what is going on in the minds of welfare recipients? His use of armchair psychology is appalling.

[Hep]

35. For the love of all things holy

Dean never blamed welfare recipients. Unbelievable. Do people have to actually hit themselves in the head to lower their intellectual standards this far, or can most people control it?

[LuminousX]

50. Where, even in the abbreviated quote, did Dean blame the recipient?

[TLM]

121. they felt bad enough having to be in that position in the first place?

You mean they... had low self-esteem as a result of being on welfare.

Gosh thought you were trying to argue that's a horrible thing to say... so why say pretty much the same thing yourself?

[robbedvoter]

25. He called welfare recipients lazy people with no work ethic- Sharpton

"Howard Dean is a conservative," Sharpton says. "He's supported three-strikes-and-you're-out sentencing. He called welfare recipients 'lazy people' with no work ethic. Now he wants to keep troops in Iraq for years. How are folks in the civil rights community supposed to support things like that?"
(A Dean spokesperson says that Dean didn't support the 3 strikes law)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/144906p-128023c.html
****

[KaraokeKarlton]

27. yeah, whatever

:eyes:

[robbedvoter]

34. Note, the campaign only denied the 3 strikes position

Prior comments about or "even Costa Rica" or
"That's like asking me who the ambassador to Rwanda is."MTP- July

Yeah, Rwanda, that dumb place. Nothing ever happens there.

www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/v-pfriendly/story/95235p-86321c.html


show a "who cares what you think rich boy attitude, not unlike W's.

[TLM]

124. No, the NYdaily news only printed that denial

and i note there was no source or quote for the lazy comment... but we all know if sharpton says it, it must be true and accurate.

[robbedvoter]

31. It jives with similar contempt for the schlobs going to war and not Aspen:

"It was like a scene from the movie `Alice's Restaurant,' " Dr. Dean said. "There was every kind of person you can imagine. Guys who weighed 375, guys who were 6-feet-5 with hair down to their knees and needle tracks up and down their arms."
 Dr. Dean said he  saw a young man sharing his urine specimen with a fellow draftee.  "I mean, that is what it was like," Dr. Dean said. "Welcome to the U.S. Army, boys."

[mzmolly]

64. Generally if we make an accusation providing a quote...it's better to

quote the person in question rather then someone who is parsing words.

[davsand]

30. My knee jerk was negative, however...

...seeing it in context helps a lot.

I agree with Dean that our system does a lot to rob people of both self esteem as well as dignity. Entitlement programs are a tough turf--on one hand you want to do all you can to give a helping hand when it is needed, and on the other hand you have the GOP waving the spector of the "Welfare Queens".

Children's SSI went thru a similart villification before it was gutted in '97. The net result was that in Illinois alone, close to 2/3 of kids on SSI were terminated with no hearing and no notice. (You try talking to a Mom with a kid on a ventilator who has been told her kid is no longer considered to be "disabled...")

THAT single reform raped so many people, I can only imagine how bad the impact would be if we allow Welfare reform to happen under this regime.

I fully understand why people read that quote out of context and get creeped out by it. I do wish more voters would take time to read the full text of it, however. Thanks to you guys for putting it out there for an explanation.

Laura

[robbedvoter]

38. Why apologise the next day if he was so right then?

Like with the C-Flag - if he was right, why apologize?

[Hep]

45. Because

just because I think it's OK doesn't mean that everyone does. He doesn't apologize for what he's trying to say. Sometimes he has to apologize for putting it in a way that upsets some people.

[robbedvoter]

61. Aha! So, it's just the way he put it. In a more diplomatic way - lazy

would be what- activity challenged?
And aren't you guys idolozing this guy no matter what, because he means what he says and never backs off? I am confused here.

[Hep]

66. Lazy might be a word for it

Whatever. That anyone would dutifully ignore the point he was making in an effort to demonize him is not as funny as it is disgusting. But my feelings on this are no secret.

The thing about what the Dean "critics" do with this particular issue is that they marginalize the big picture. They use welfare as a tool to vilify Dean without ever looking at his point. It is a disservice to well meaning people who read this shite.

I don't idolize Dean at all.

Yes you are confused here, but to the best of my ability, I can't recognize the source of your confusion.

[TLM]

126. Where did Dean say LAZY? Cite that quote.

I've not seen any quote where Dean said people on welfare were lazy.

[TLM]

125. Because as he said... when he saw it in print...

it did not come across like he had meant it to. It sound a lot more harsh and accusatory than he meant.

[cryofan]

40. And this is from the Rich Boy who spent his youth on the slopes of Aspen

...the more I hear about Dean, the more I dislike him.

[Hep]

46. Wow

We never would have guessed. Do people ever get tired of saying the same thing over and over and over?

I mean, do they ever fatigue?

Does anyone get sick of repeating themselves all the time?

Saying the same thing over and over and over, does it get old?

[cryofan]

54. The truth never gets old, Bud. Are you questioning the facts here?

If I am wrong, please explain how.

I am sorry if it hurts you to see me make critical statements about your chosen candidate. I am really am, but I feel I must. I hope you understand. Something important is at stake here.

[Hep]

57. The facts?

It's not about favcts, it's about presentation. Monkeys throw feces. Apparently it can be concluded that some DU'ers are monkeys in disguise.

You're not making critical statements about my candidate. You're making unnecessarily bitter and inflammatory statements about my candidate. Apparently in lieu of anything positive to say about whoever YOUR candidate is. We'll just refer to that candidate as LOSER.

[helleborient]

63. Skiing as a youth is about as important as riding motorcycles on Leno...

What does this have to do with governing?

[Le Taz Hot]

62. That's OK, Hep

Let them sit in mommy's basement, drooling over their keyboards, "Dean Dean Dean Dean Dean." We'll be out registering voters. And going to Meet Ups. And writing letters. And walking precincts. And forming caucuses. And sending money into the campaign. And finding delegates for the convention. And going to Iowa in the winter. Six months later, they're still in mommy's basement, drooling, mumbling over and over again, "Dean Dean Dean Dean Dean." B-)

[Hep]

67. LOL

So true! I get the feeling that people characterize Dean supporters as middle class intellectuals just because we look that way compared to the anti-intellectuals with NO class that oppose him.

[eileen_d]

74. What is Dean's position

on Democrats who do live in their mother's basement then? ;)

[Hep]

77. It's a states rights issue.

HTH!

[Zomby Woof]

95. I'll just be laughing

When Dean gets his ass handed to him in a landslide because you all kept your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalalalala" when the rest of us tried telling you the truth about that smarmy hotheaded bastard.

I eagerly watch the news waiting for him to put his mouth again or make yet another waffling backpedal. Dean is embarrassing, and a disgrace to our party.

Throw your money away on him if you please.

It is in the best interests of the Democrats to pass over the cult of personality represented by his campaign.

[Hep]

98. You'll laugh when Bush beats Dean

Interesting. Most of american would be weeping. I guess we all see how importasnt this is to you, don't we?

[Zomby Woof]

128. "Most" of America?

Wait, if Dean loses, that means most of America didn't want him, so how could "most" of America be weeping? Magically stupid reasoning you've got there.

If Bush wins, I may just go to Canada yet. But if Dean wins, I will stick around and watch him sell you all out. And laugh of course.

It IS important to me that Bush loses, which is more the reason to oppose Dean NOW. He cannot beat Bush.

By fighting for Dean to get the nomination, you are ensuring a Bush win. Now, what did you say was important, again?

You won't have the power!

You never did. You all have been taken in by a great salesman.

[LuminousX]

55. And here I thought you were going to suddenly like Dean

I'm just curious... how many levels of dislike do you have?

Either you like or dislike... you seem to imply you are moving on a spectrum, growing more and more repulsed by Dean. If that is so, then just come on out and say you hate him.

Here's the thing, once you make that decision, you don't become a stone around the campaign weighing it down, slowing it down in any way. You are simply cut loose. Once the campaign knows there is no way it can get your vote, there is no reason to try to get your vote.

That is my reaction to most of the Anti-Dean crowd. They have made themselves pointless because there is no real reasoning with them. They've made up their minds and now just hope to poke holes in the Dean campaign. This is also why it really isn't interesting to discuss Dean anymore. Same arguments over and over. The only hope for some interesting tactics and dialogue in in the Clark Kerry matchup which is like watching a College Football because there isn't an NFL game on.

[Hep]

59. LOL Good point

Poking holes in the dean campaign here is like bingo night in the lobotomy wing of the mental hospital. You don't need a brain to participate.

[cryofan]

60. Wrong--I was a Dean supporter several months ago

This summer I decided I had better support a Democrat. I did a little research and found a couple of references saying that Dean was a "progressive" and an "outsider". That sounded good, and I had my candidate. Then, work slowed down at the office and I went from fulltime to contract. Now I have lots of time to devote to politics and research. Took me about a month to find out the truth about Dean. In fact, the last 3 months has led me to completely revise my political thinking and attitude.

So you see I certainly can change my mind.....

[Hep]

68. Sorry

I don't believe for a second that you ever honestly considered Dean as your candidate.

[LuminousX]

71. I never implied you can't change you mind

I implied that you've made up your mind and regarding this decision, nothing can convince you to support Dean. You may vote for him in the General Election, but you will do so under protest. Your energy is now used to defeat Dean instead of electing someone else.

Enjoy the show,
Cheers.

[RetroLounge]

75. Poop

eom

[mzmolly]

78. Let's let this thread sink where it belongs....

parsed words from a stale issue, soooo not worth it. :hurts: is right ;)

We have one of our 'new clark friends' here re-hashing again, imagine that? :hi:

[robbedvoter]

79. Not worth it - people on welfare do not vote anyway, right?

[Hep]

82. They sure as hell don't post to DU

And I doubt they need anyone here pretending to care about their feelings.

[Cat M.]

88. Pretending?

I grew up in a "welfare" home, and I have family members STILL on welfare, so believe me, my compassion isn't pretend.

But it sounds like Dean's just might be.

[Hep]

90. Yeah,

Dean just pretended to give 98% + kids under 18 health care.

[Cat M.]

92. Were we talking about healthcare?

I was pretty sure the discussion was Dean's compassion for people who are down and out on their luck.

It's very easy to be compassionate toward children. Also, Dean inflates his health care numbers. Some of those Vermonters he takes credit for were actually insured by the federal government and expanded Medicare, not Dean.

[Hep]

99. You were talking about compassion

remember? You don't think making sure everyone has healthcare has anything to do with compassion?

Interesting approach. Remind me to read your book.

[LuminousX]

96. Were you on welfare in Vermont?

[mzmolly]

108. So did I, which is why I prefer some one who voted for JFK instead of

of Nixon, Carter instead of Reagan, Dukakis instead of Bush sr.

[TLM]

127. Funny I did as well and have no problem with what Dean said...

Nor does the woman who was on welfare in VT when Dean said this and who is off welfare now thanks to Dean;s refroms in the system.

[mzmolly]

107. Look, I grew up with a single mother who was on public assistance

AKA welfare for much of my childhood, so don't lecture me.

And for the record MY FAMILY VOTED!

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

80. I understand

Though I understand what Dr. Dean was trying to say with his welfare remark, I look at it from this perspective...he tends to stick his foot in his mouth a lot...and we already have one of those sitting in the White House...why should we elect another one?

[eileen_d]

81. Welcome to DU, pam k78!

:hi:

[Renew Deal]

83. That's Jesse Ventura politics

The governing body would be proud.

[robbedvoter]

85. One last qustion: if the welfare person has a C-Flag decal on their truck

does that fact make this person worthy of your political respect (as in courting his/her vote) Just so I get my lines of contempt straight.

[Hep]

91. Political respect?

I know WHY you posted that, I just wish it made some kind of sense.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

100. My brain is fully functioning

Enough to know a hamfisted attempt at attack when I see one.

[TLM]

102. Yeah easily...

This one has been addressed over and over again. Dean was talking about folks who are on welfare permanantly and are stuck. He was talking about the fact that being stuck in this system robs one of self-esteem.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deancrit.html


During one of his weekly news conferences in 1993, Dean was being questioned about some of his welfare reform proposals, when he uttered comments that drew sharp criticism from advocates and welfare recipients. In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support, Dean said: "Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"

Dean apologized the next day, saying, "Those remarks really stepped over the line."

Earlier this week, Dean defended his criticism of Dwyer, saying his comments were not nearly as disparaging as Dwyer's and he never intended to contribute to the negative stereotyping of people on welfare.

"I understand that a person is a person, no matter where they are on economic spectrum," he said. "When I realized my remarks were hurtful, I apologized.

"It came out differently in the paper than what I meant. What I meant was being on welfare can be really, really hard and the transition to work from welfare helps people feel fulfilled in their lives."

[LiberalBushFan]

109. I really hope Dean doesn't win the nom

Because the choice will be so tough afterwards! Two compassionate and understanding men!

"I understand that a person is a person, no matter where they are on economic spectrum"
-Dean

"First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 19, 2003

Such maturity on both their parts!
(j/k, by the way, i'll vote for the ivy-league drunk, formerly unkown governor. IN case that's not specific enough I mean Dean)

[Hep]

111. You should have been this open

about your leanings from the start. Then we wouldn't be stuck just suspecting that you're yet another Dean "critic"

[mzmolly]

110. Welfare is a form of slavery IMHO. I lived it as a child, it's not fun.

I have 2 sisters who were 'on welfare' one is off, and the other is not.

They both vote, and are supporting Howard Dean for President.

[SEAburb]

112. I guess the point of your post

is to confirm Dean's remarks were overly harsh and he made a mistake saying them.

It's nice to see a Dean supporter not trying to spin Dean's comment into something good.

[Hep]

114. Something good?

While he was right to apologize, you don't see the good in what Dean was trying to convey?

[SEAburb]

116. kicking people when their down isn't good

in my book. But that's just me.

[mzmolly]

118. You mean like voting for Republicans?

I agree. I was down in the Reagan era, and it wasn't pretty.

[SEAburb]

123. What is that suppose to mean?

If you are implying I vote for a repug, you're way off base. And I resent the implication.

[Hep]

120. I'll ask again for the poop throwers

YOu can't see the good in what Dean was trying to convey?