Dean Narrowing His Separation of Church and Stump/some "oops" here

[Gloria]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/04/politics/campaigns/04DEAN.html?pagewanted=all

Dean Narrowing His Separation of Church and Stump
By JODI WILGOREN

Published: January 4, 2004

(discussion of how Dean is talking about religion a lot lately)


(snip)

Touring with the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Dr. Dean also visited Galilee, where Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount. "If you know much about the Bible — which I do — to see and be in a place where Christ was and understand the intimate history of what was going on 2,000 years ago is an exceptional experience," he said.

Asked his favorite New Testament book, Dr. Dean named Job, adding: "But I don't like the way it ends." "Some would argue, you know, in some of the books of the New Testament, the ending of the Book of Job is different," he said. "I think, if I'm not mistaken, there's one book where there's a more optimistic ending, which we believe was tacked on later."

Job, the Old Testament story of a righteous man who suffers hardships as a test of his faith, ends with the Lord restoring his fortunes and the protagonist living to be "an old man, and full of days." Some scholars have posited that the original ending may have been more dour.

An hour after his comments, Dr. Dean returned to the clutch of reporters, saying he realized he had misspoken because Job is not in the New Testament.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[Jerseycoa]

1. God Almighty nt

[eileen_d]

2. OK, so this is the part

where I say what a good job Dean does talking about Christianity?

Frankly I think both Dean and Bush have proven that they have problems with "Impromptu Bible Questions From Reporters 101"

This kind of thing is not important to me personally. I do not think Dean is any more or less sincere about religion than any other politician.

But dang, even I knew that Job was in the Old Testament... :spank:

Edit: That spank is for me, for daring to criticize Dean!

[w4rma]

162. More nit picking. It's obvious he knows a good deal about the Bible.

You can tell from his accurate explanations of many parts of the Bible, inculding Job, which he had a brain fart over, I suppose because he wanted to talk about Job but the reporter's quetions was on the New Testement instead of the Old Testement.

…
An hour after his comments, Dr. Dean returned to the clutch of reporters, saying he realized he had misspoken because Job is not in the New Testament.
…

[Scott Lee]

169. It's what they're down to. A pity.

[oasis]

180. Dean's knows snow. Dean knows Job. Dean is a snow job expert.

[slinkerwink]

3. so? the average american hasn't read the bible back-to-back

[Dookus]

9. lol....

good answer. I can't wait to hear the doctor use it in a debate.

[maxr4clark]

135. I wouldn't vote for the average American for President

I do expect my President to know that the book of Job is in the Old Testament. Not because I expect my President to be Christian; but because I expect my President to be well-read. It wasn't by accident that Guttenberg's first publication was the Bible! The Bible is the most quoted and referenced piece of literature in the Western world; if you would expect your President to be well-read at all, you should expect him to have read the Bible. It isn't like expecting him to have read (and understood) James Joyce's "Ulysses", or anything.

I would also like the Attorney General to have read the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Amendments. Having read some of the more important rulings of the Supreme Court would be a bonus, but hey, in this day and age, I'll keep my expectations low.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

183. And I expect a Dem candidate to keep "God" out of politics - this is

making me sick....

[bearfartinthewoods]

143. is anyone keep a list of these?

besides rove, i mean?

[JPJones]

159. But the average voter knows Job is OT

Dean has finally started talking about JOB migration.

When he's elected president he'll move Job to the NT.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

174. Ha ha. Dean really slipped up with that one

a glaring boner if ever there was one.

[Kahuna]

176. Right after he boasted, "....I know the Bible..."

too dee-licious!

[robbedvoter]

4. So, does he, or doesn't he?

. "If you know much about the Bible — which I do —
snip
An hour after his comments, Dr. Dean returned to the clutch of reporters, saying he realized he had misspoken because Job is not in the New Testament.
"
His press secretary, Doug Thornell, telephoned late Friday night to say that Dr. Dean did not mean to imply he was some kind of expert.

[eileen_d]

6. How dare you connect the dots!

And draw a logical conclusion! Oh, the humanity! :spank:

[madfloridian]

28. You sound different about religion on the new thread about Clark.

You sound ok with it there.

What a shame to be so ugly about things.

[eileen_d]

36. I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm OK with religion. I'm not OK with condescension, though.

Edit: I'm also not OK with hypocrisy, and I'm afraid Dean exhibited some in this article. Sorry-o.

[robbedvoter]

38. Oh, so a retaliatory thread on Clark was started? How pretty!

[Dookus]

41. No worries...

I'm sure Clark knows which testament Job is in.

[Brian_Expat]

45. So Clark's not "pandering" when he talks about religion. . .

. . . "just because," while Dean is because he screwed up on which testament a book of the Bible is in? :eyes:

[robbedvoter]

55. Nope. Didn't suddenly announced he found Jesus after 2 years of

secular persona on the stump - just because polls found that the South wants it. Clark has been consistent.

[Brian_Expat]

62. "Secular persona on the stump"?

During the Vermont Civil Unions election, Dean could often be found in prayer at the Congregational church near Montpelier. But I guess he was just faking. :eyes:

As a person of (unconventional) faith myself, I find all this questioning of Dean's faith to be very, very tasteless, inappropriate, and rather sad.

[bearfartinthewoods]

148. i can hardly wait to see what other subjects dean 'knows much about'

[JPJones]

173. How about the Soviet Union? EOM

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. "Asked his favorite New Testament book, Dr. Dean named Job"

*sigh*

[robbedvoter]

8. I wonder if Dr Freud would make something of that...persecution ceomplex?

I mean , if it's the one with the iffy ending, why is it your favorite?

[blm]

160. That's what I thought.

I think his whole story is like The Prodigal Son.

He goes off and attacks the left for 11 years and then stands before the left in an election year and says he represents them and so many believe his rhetoric while attacking those who carried water for the left for decades. The prodigal who turned his back on the left for so many years gets the reward.

Sad.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

184. My thoughts exactly....

n/t

[zulchzulu]

117. What he meant to say...

The New Testament needed more jobs, er, um, the apostles had crappy jobs. That's why the Book of Revelations was written.

[Kahuna]

177. LOL!

:evilgrin:

[floridaguy]

123. Would this be like asking shrub to name the European capitals? (n/t)

[molly]

146. LOL -yes - the similarities are amazing!

:think: :eyes:

[KittyWampus]

155. Actually Job Is An Amazing Story From The Esoteric Reading

If you reread it with the consideration that Job brings his Trials upon HIMSELF and they are not the actions of a cruel god... but rather the result or consequence of Job seperating himself from God.

This is one way to undestand Karma... which means "Action" not retribution.

[CalProf]

170. Uh, which Book of Job are you reading?

God visits the trials on Job because he makes a bet with Satan that Job will remain true and faithful even when the foundations of his life--wealth, children, a thriving household--are taken from him. It's very much about how fickle fortune can be, and how faith matters more when times are hard. But the God of Job is very much an Old Testament God: angry, vengeful, and capricious.

[madfloridian]

7. Do you guys know how silly that sounds?

I was raised in a fundamentalist church, memorized so many verses, could say all the books of the bible.

I can not do it now. How picky and silly can you get?

This is just out of the loop making fun of someone.

[robbedvoter]

13. But you are not running for office pretending YOU KNOW IT

I know bubkus - I couldn't care less if all candidates knew nothing about the bible - in fact I'd prefer they didn't. But if they found Jesus on Christmas, they better now in which Testament he resides!

[Dookus]

16. Silly?

He prefaces his answer with how much he knows about the Bible, then makes a fundamental mistake about it.

I wonder what it would take for some Dean supporters to ever-so-slightly admit that maybe just perhaps their candidate made the smallest boo-boo.

[Clark Can WIN]

21. Of course it is

because it's about Dean. Maybe it's not making fun, maybe it's pointing out still more inconsistency and percieved arrogance.

[Kahuna]

178. Then Dean should not have bragged that he "knows"

the Bible just before he made his gaffe. This is the definition of poetic justice.

[windansea]

10. the ORT strikes again

OOPS response team

[CalProf]

171. LOL! n/t

[oasis]

182. That was a dandy. (eom)

[clarknyc]

11. Jesus.

The point of this thread is...what? Dean is not running for Chief National Theologian...or is he?

[robbedvoter]

15. The way he's been preeching lately in churches - not so sure he isn't!

:shrug:

[clarknyc]

22. Sure.

Got links to back that up? You know, about him "preeching lately in churches", as you put it.

[Brian_Expat]

64. *dead silence* ;-) n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

149. i wonder if he says his own prayers or has a staff to write them for him?

[robbedvoter]

73. Some of it...A NYT article has more

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48313-2004Jan1.html
By 9:30 a.m., Dean is talking with a trace of a Southern accent. It's a subtle but discernible evolution, divined by a few members of the traveling news media and the predominantly black audience at a ribbon-cutting ceremony to open the campaign's office in Florence.

"Thank yuh, thank yuh very much," Dean says, slightly Elvis-like.

"Here's this Vermont Yankee, coming down here to get votes in South Carol-lah-nah," Dean says.

"Ev-ruh-body says it can't be done."

He says he wants America to be once again the most respected "coun-trah" in the world.

"We're gonna be working our you-know-whats off in South Carol-lah-nah."

snip
"
. He's learning the language."

By 12:10, Howard Dean is praying.

[clarknyc]

89. What...

a bullshit hack-job of a link that is. I should have asked for a credible link. Got one?

[AntiCoup2K4]

12. Hey, at least he remembers the story

Even if he didn't remember exactly WHERE in the Bible it was. I'll be the Chimpster couldn't even name the Four Gospels.

Uh let's see..... John....Paul....George...and Ringo, right?

[madfloridian]

14. This thread is just making fun of him.

You know, I seldom post things about Clark, and I do not post insulting things about him.

Maybe it is about time to start with the little snide things with him as well.

This is so petty. You are making fun of a man and his religion.

[Dookus]

19. No...

we're discussing yet another foot-in-mouth moment from Dean. To preface your statement with an expression of how much you know about the subject, then get it completely wrong, is noteworthy.

If Clark had done it, I'd say publicly "geez, that was dumb. he shouldn't have said that." It seems, however, that NOTHING Dean can say or do is worthy of ANY criticism.

That's a mindset I hope I never adopt. I like to actually think.

[eileen_d]

27. Yep

I cringe when I hear the "software/India" quote from Clark, because I wish he hadn't said it. But I don't deny that he did, and that it was a mistake. It also doesn't do justice to Clark's actual position on keeping jobs in America. And this piece isn't the essence of Dean's "stance" on religion either.

[robbedvoter]

23. Religion - that thing one should keep personal and not exploit

for political reasons you mean?
I respected his answer last month - the one about occasionally going to church, synagogue, allowing the kids to chose.
But then came the rebirth on Christmas - and the reasons for respect were gone. Sorry, he made his religion fair game by mixing it with politics.

[Brian_Expat]

111. Unless you're Wes Clark. Then, exploit away? n/t

[KittyWampus]

156. On Christmas Day, Dean Found A Carpetbag Under The Christmas Tree

with the baby Jesus inside.

from some wag over at Fark.

[maddezmom]

144. no you just post stuff from blogs

and post snide things about his supporters.

[bearfartinthewoods]

150. no, the subject is a man and his ego

[JPJones]

166. "If you know much about the Bible -- which I do --...

This is the point. He is misrepresenting himself to get votes in the South and Midwest. Sorry, but most people will see right through this.

[chocolateeater]

17. Sounds like a brain fart to me.

Nothing more serious than that.

[JPJones]

172. Except when Rove runs it on TV

200,000,000 times in the South and Midwest.

[clarknyc]

18. Just curious:

How many responding here honestly knew what was wrong with Dean's response without seeing it in the reporter's story? Or is DU full of Bible readers/interpreters? Not that it's a bad thing at all...

[Dookus]

20. I knew

as soon as I saw the word "Job". This atheist was well-aware it's an old testament book.

[clarknyc]

25. Well good for you.

Any others, honestly?

[bearfartinthewoods]

151. being an agnostic, i thought it was wrong

i wasn't sure. of course i don't go aroound saying i know "much about the bible" either.

[QC]

24. I already knew Job was in the OT.

I learned that in Sunday School before I was 10.

[clarknyc]

30. RFK...

was and remains my first hero.

[QC]

31. One of my big ones, too.

I wish the poor people in this country today had a Bobby Kennedy.

[clarknyc]

39. I just wish...

that Senator Robert Francis Kennedy had been able to serve the two presidential terms he certainly would have won. This world would now be quite a different place, in my opinion.

[QC]

47. I agree.

I'm generally not a fan of aristocrats, but Bobby Kennedy "got it." In large part that came later in life, after some serious soul-searching. I'm not a big fan of the Bobby who worked for McCarthy and out-redbaited Nixon.

But as for the Bobby who went into shacks in West Virginia and Tunica County, Mississippi and came out in tears--I love that man.

[clarknyc]

57. Exactly.

We're on the same page regarding RFK. Take care.

[eileen_d]

32. I knew it too, and I grew up "unchurched"

To be fair, Job is the one book in the Bible I have actually read most of. But the question was asked ("Did I knew the answer before I read the article?") so that's my answer.

[Jerseycoa]

43. tee hee

:P

[robbedvoter]

29. This heathen knew the New testament is about Jesus and the Old

about all other stories. And it's only relevant because
a. he started by saying he knows the bible well - credibility
b. he made his faith a campaign issue - pandering.

[dawn]

40. I had no idea which Testament Job was in.

But I'm not Christian, and I don't have any problem with what Dean said. Who cares? It's not like he said he was an expert on the subject, anyway.

[bearfartinthewoods]

152. "If you know much about the Bible — which I do — "

now i guess we can discuss what the definition of "know" is

[clarknyc]

48. I'm quite suprised, really.

I'd never have ever guessed that the denizens of DU were so well versed in The Holy Bible. Truly remarkable.

[Dookus]

61. Actually...

knowing whether a story about a man being put upon by God is Old Testament or New Testament is rather easy if you know anything at all about the Bible.

The Big Guy doesn't really make many appearances in the New Testament. Certainly none approaching his level of involvement with Job.

As was pointed out above, simple catechism or Sunday school will make that pretty clear to even a 10 year old.

[clarknyc]

69. Good for you, Dookus

Your Sunday school was not a waste of time. We all should be so fortunate...

[Dookus]

74. well

I figured since it's a central book of Western Civilization and has had more effect on our world than any other over the last few millennia, understanding the basics of it might not be a bad idea.

[zulchzulu]

77. I slapped myself with a ruler and it all came back

[BootinUp]

116. that was funny!

And it had nothing to do with Dean.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

186. Everything went in one ear and out the other for me.....

n/t

[BootinUp]

104. It was forced on me

12 years of Catholic school. There's a big difference between the New and Old testaments. This is not a common mistake to be frank.

[Gloria]

167. I'm sure Cal Thomas knows...he's already written about Dean and

religion and I'm sure he'll be adding this to his files....as will many Southern churches across the South....

Me, personally, I don't really care about religion all that much. But the reality is, many, many do.

[shance]

26. I think this reminds us that no one is perfect when it comes to "God".

If he was incorrect on his statement about Job, so be it. How many times do you think others who are ordained ministers have misquoted the Bible? Im sure more than we can count.

I do think we need to watch out on using religion to divide us on those who know God and those who dont. None of us know everything perfectly and I think many Americans need to consider the Bible is not the answer to everyone in their quest for God. When did we assume that it was?

Not remembering where certain books are in the Bible doesnt mean a heck of alot in the span of how we lead our lives, does it?

I remember watching the 1988 Republican convention and I was listening to George Bush Sr. and remember him saying that he had never heard Democrats use the word "God" in their speeches. I dont have a quote, but it was something to that effect.

I was pretty shocked to hear that statement, one because I had voted for George Bush Sr. and admired him, and because I believed it was a divisive thing to say and I didnt think it was necessary or certainly warranted. It was also a time I was still wavering as to if I was still a Republican or a Democrat. That was one moment I remember that has remained in my mind and one element that made me question if the Republican party was truly about inclusion, or more about exclusion of those not fitting a certain mold.

No one has a copyright on God.

Its probably best that politicians need to stick to concrete issues. Unfortunately, the Religious Right has made a point to include religion into our government now. I dont think Democrats can fully ignore that, and I think it needs to be known again, that no one has a copyright on God.

I think we need to stick to tangible deals and know that all of us want to find some kind of meaning in life and that NONE of us know all the answers.

Not Democrats, and not Republicans. One thing I will say is that I have not heard any Democrat say we have a copyright on God.

I was a pretty devout Christian at one point in my life. I was active in many organizations, but that is not where I am now. I think part of the reason seems to be an agenda driven campaign that is being used in the name of Christianity and has largely overshadowed what I believe is the true essence and meaning of Christianity. I believe it is driving alot of people away.

Many Republicans like Pat Robertson, William Bennett and Jerry Falwell love to talk about God and yet, what I find is they talk more about exclusion and contempt for those who are different from them, than having anything to do with what Jesus and other religious teachers taught.

In effect it seems there are those like Robertson and Falwell who use God and Jesus for their own agenda and means and seem to have no idea what Jesus was even about.

Its a shame and damaging when individuals use teachers of true acceptance and love like Jesus and others in order to divide people into factions that create division and ill will, and sometimes even hatred. That is the antithesis of what I believe Jesus was ever about.

[robbedvoter]

33. If it was the intent, it failed. It will be now used as reinforcement:

"look at the dems - trying to ape us - don't even know their testaments"

[bearfartinthewoods]

153. i agree with almost everything you have said

but it really isn't the point. if religion is a part of his life he has a right to be honest about that. what sucks is his announcing he intends to emphasis it south of the mason/dixon line in advance.

that's plain stupid strategy...just do it, don't telegraph the punch.

also stupid is to announce that he knows much about the bible and then screw up something pretty basic.

[BootinUp]

164. wow, nice post

I think your right on target.

[zulchzulu]

34. Why the hell is Dean doing the "Religious Guy" schtick?

Maybe he should stick to Lao Tzu quotes. He did say he was his favorite philosopher on Hardball.

Some Suggestions:

When everyone knows beauty as beautiful, there is already ugliness;
When everyone knows goodness as goodness, there is already evil.
"To be" and "not to be" arise mutually - Lao Tzu

Do you imagine the universe is agitated? Go into the desert at night and look at the stars. This practice should answer the question. Lao Tzu

All men desire to free themselves solely from death; they do not know how to free themselves from life. Lao Tzu

Forget about being separated from others and from the Divine Source - Lao Tzu

To be selfless is to be all-pervading. To be all pervading is to be transcendent. Lao Tzu

To embrace all things means also that one rids oneself of any concept of separation: male or female, self or other, life and death. Division is contrary to the nature of the Tao - Lao Tzu

What is springs from what is not - Lao Tzu

To the mind that is still the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu

To embrace all is to be selfless - Lao Tzu

[robbedvoter]

37. Could be, because of the Church Lady jokes?

[zulchzulu]

52. Dean could mention he digs the burning Bush reference in Exodus 3:2ff

[Hawkeye-X]

35. Not surprising considering his family

follows the Old Testament (the Five Books of Moses), not the New Testament because the Jewish religion does not believe in the New Testament (hence, not believing in Christ)

Hawkeye-X

[Dookus]

44. so according to you...

he had even MORE reason to know that Job was in the old Testament.

[Brian_Expat]

49. I'm sure which Testament Job was in is a make-or-break electoral issue! nt

[Dookus]

53. Nobody ever said it was...

does that mean it shouldn't be mentioned? That's nonsense.

It's a sign of Dean's seemingly bottomless ability to open his mouth without thinking ahead.

This makes him look dumb. It makes him look arrogant. It makes him look hypocritical. It makes him look just plain foolish.

No, it's not a make-or-break electoral issue. It's just indicative of the kinds of problems we'll be fighting throughout the campaign if Dean is the nominee.

[Brian_Expat]

60. Heh

This makes him look dumb. It makes him look arrogant. It makes him look hypocritical. It makes him look just plain foolish.

Dumb, arrogant, hypocritical and foolish to make a minor mistake as to which half of the Bible a book is in?

Don't you think you're taking this a little far?

[Dookus]

Yes...

if you start out the discussion by saying "I know a lot about the Bible" and then get something this basic wrong.

[Brian_Expat]

75. "I know a lot about the English language"

But sometimes I flub a dangling participle, or incorrectly conjugate a verb, or don't match a verb properly to a singular direct object. Does that mean I'm now "dumb, arrogant, hypocritical and foolish" for saying "I know a lot about the English language"?

[Dookus]

91. No...

but if you said "I know a lot about the English language. Nouns are action words," you would.

[Brian_Expat]

98. A distinction without a difference

Basically, your problem with Dean is that he's human and screwed up.

I hope you're willing to hold Clark to that standard, because if you are, some of us who aren't Clark fans could have a field day.

[Dookus]

101. You're still

refusing to understand the point. It's not that he made a mistake. It's that he presented himself as some authority on the subject before doing so. And it's not an esoteric mistake. It's a very, very basic one.

[Brian_Expat]

108. He didn't present himself as an expert

Just someone who "knows a lot about the Bible."

He made a mistake. A minor one. You're (pardon the pun) crucifying him for it, and many are arguing that this "proves" his faith is "all an act to get votes." (Read other threads in this forum!)

If you're arguing that a candidate cannot make mistakes from time to time, even in subjects where he has some knowledge, you're creating an impossibly high test for your own candidate which he will fail sooner or later himself (and likely already has several times).

[jumptheshadow]

141. Minor mistake?

Yikes. It was not a minor mistake. It was a huge mistake. It will be grist for Leno, Letterman, Maher, etc. for the next year.

In fact, I'm sure my Republican boss will forward me at least three or four e-mail jokes about it by the end of the week.

[Brian_Expat]

42. So let me get this straight. . .

. . . when Clark says "I’m running on patriotism, faith, family and bringing the country together," that's a strong statement of belief. But when Dean mentions his faith in any way, he's "pandering."

Am I missing something?

[Dookus]

50. Yes...

you're missing the entire point of this thread. The Book of Job is NOT in the New Testament, as Dean asserted. This has NOTHING to do with the validity of candidates discussing their faith. It has to do with starting out by saying "I know the Bible well..." and then flubbing a question about a BASIC aspect of the Bible.

[Brian_Expat]

56. So books in the Bible are a big campaign issue?

"Knowing the Bible well" doesn't mean you won't make a mistake from time to time. But it strikes me more that for some Democrats, talking about their faith is OK, but for others, it isn't. Why is that?

[BootinUp]

54. The question

of pandering has to do with, is he forcing it, or trying to create an image of him that isn't real. I do not have an opinion one way or the other. But if he isn't more careful the media will put an opinion out there he doesn't like.

[Brian_Expat]

58. So basically you're saying. . .

. . . that people who accuse him of "pandering" are arguing that his faith isn't genuine? Who are they to make such accusations?

[BootinUp]

65. I am not

making the accusation, and I don't want to speak for anybody else. If Dean brings his faith into his political campaign people will comment on it though. Look, I don't think this is a major issue. I am suffering from insomnia and looking for something to post.

later.

[MiniMoog]

109. Wondered when someone would pick this up

I posted a question about this story in the below thread.

It's carried in the LA Times. Quotes are slightly different. Seems in the NY Times article Dr Dean "elaborated" a bit more - or the reporters quoted him more at length.

Thread link and link to story in thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=57399

No one responded to my query.

But this thread. Wowza. Wildfire.

MiniMoog

[jumptheshadow]

147. A major source of Clark's appeal

If you read about him then you can't fail to realize that this is a man who has been on a spiritual and ethical journey for years. It's also obvious that he has grown as a person during that time. It's one of many factors which I weighed when I evaluated him as a candidate.

[BootinUp]

46. Not that it bothers me

really, but that was a heck of a gaffe!

Dean ought to stick with what he knows.

[Brian_Expat]

51. So Congregationalists shouldn't talk about their faith. . .

. . . I guess because they're a "small liberal New England church"?

Guess I'm even worse. As a Quaker, I don't believe the Bible is divinely inspired, merely a historical account! Must make me a terrible, terrible person to talk about religion.

[BootinUp]

59. Calm down

I didn't say he shouldn't talk about religion. I was referring specifically to his comments about knowing the bible and then inserting a foot in his mouth.

[Brian_Expat]

68. So he doesn't know the Bible because he made a minor mistake. . .

That's like me saying you don't know English because you improperly conjugate a verb or leave a dangling participle at the end of a sentence.

[BootinUp]

76. Why do you insist

on making me a judge? I am pointing out how it could be perceived not how I perceive it.

[Brian_Expat]

78. Ahhh. . .

. . . so now you're just being a master of nuance? :P

[BootinUp]

97. I don't know anything about Dean's personal

life and his faith. So I would not make a post saying "Dean is pandering". I thought it was ok to explain my opinion of why he is catching some flack. I realize now, that it is impossible to do that without appearing to do the former. No hard feelings I hope.

[Dookus]

94. Nope...

It's like saying "I know a lot about US History. The Declaration of Independence was issued in 1812 against the King of France."

[Dookus]

63. Why do you keep harping on this point?

This is NOT about whether candidates should talk about religion.

It's about candidates who CHOOSE to talk about religion knowing what the hell they're talking about.

They are two very different things, and I think you know it.

[Brian_Expat]

That's a change in the message I've been hearing.

1st, it's "Dean is pandering by talking about religion."

Then it was "Dean obviously isn't religious because he made a mistake about religion."

Now it's "Dean knows nothing about faith (versus religion) because he made a minor mistake about the location of a chapter of the Bible."

Seems awfully weak to me. . .

[Dookus]

86. Brian..

please. Instead of jumping around the thread and writing knee-jerk responses to every post, just READ what we're saying.

You remind me of the Fran Lebowitz quote: "The opposite of speaking isn't listening. It's waiting to speak."

*I* have never said ONE word about Dean "pandering" on issues of religion. Not once. Ever.

THIS issue, narrowly defined by the original post, is how Dean prefaced his statements by saying he knows a lot about the Bible. Then he gets a very basic, elemental fact about it wrong.

If *I* said, "I know a lot about Howard Dean. He was born and raised in Vermont," you'd be all over me like white on rice for pretending to know something I didn't. Dean goofed. Will you at least admit that he was factually mistaken? And then will you admit that being factually mistaken on such a basic matter doesn't look good when a minute earlier you set yourself up as "knowing a lot" about the Bible?

[Brian_Expat]

106. Two issues here.

First, on religion.

Lots of Clark supporters gleefully skewered Dean for talking about his religion, calling it "pandering." I didn't see you or other Clark supporters telling them that was wrong -- if I missed that detail, I apologize.

Second point is:

THIS issue, narrowly defined by the original post, is how Dean prefaced his statements by saying he knows a lot about the Bible. Then he gets a very basic, elemental fact about it wrong.

But the fact, despite being basic, is pretty irrelevant to the subject of his speech, and since virtually everyone makes mistakes from time-to-time, focusing on it is a virtual "gotcha." And as I've mentioned before, if other candidates had the same degree of scrutiny, with "gotchas" in there, they'd be raked over the coals just as hard -- including Clark.

For those of us who understand real faith (rather than fundamentalism), such a minor mistake is no big deal. For fundamentalists who are offended by such a mistake, neither Dean nor Clark are their candidates -- Bush is. For campaign groupies such as ourselves who choose to nitpick opposition candidates to death, it's a big deal only in that you get an "ah-ha!" at your competitor's expense.

In any event, it's not a productive exercise.

[Dookus]

118. I understand

that it is your position that Dean can do no wrong. You've made it abundantly clear, along with some of your cohorts.

Some of us, though, recognize a gaffe when we see it, and it concerns us that a man SO prone to such gaffes may be our nominee.

I suppose I should be glad that you're not trying to argue that Job is REALLY in the New Testament and Rove moved it to the Old Testament just to fuck Dean over.

Honestly, for a lot of non-Dean supporters, that seems to be the level of apologetics we're seeing.

In the thread about security at the Vermont power plant, one person posted REPEATEDLY that the cause was George Bush's funding cuts. Five times he ignored the question about how the Governor of Texas could be responsible for that, since the infractions occurred long before Bush was president. It's THAT kind of blind, non-thinking responses to EVERY criticism that makes us wonder about Dean's supporters, and in fact, the man himself.

[eileen_d]

72. Thank you.

I don't think it's too much to ask of a Democratic candidate for president that they think before they speak. I guess I have really high standards. And I guess that some people think "shooting from the hip" is a great campaign strategy. 2004 is going to be some ride...

[Brian_Expat]

81. Heh

I'm sure Americans will be more concerned over which Testament the book of Job is within rather than, say, health care, jobs or the economy. :eyes:

[bearfartinthewoods]

163. it's not shooting from the hip, it's shooting from the lip and we are all

gonna get wounded if he's the nominee.

[robbedvoter]

82. If you do it to get votes, maybe...Denomination is irrelevant. Hypocrisy

issue.

[Brian_Expat]

87. So you have proof that Dean's faith is "fake," while Clark's isn't?

I'd like to see that proof. Otherwise, if you're not condemning Clark for "pandering" as well, you're not being honest.

[madfloridian]

67. You guys are ruining it for your candidate.

You really are. You just come across as making fun of us and Dean. It is out of control..

[BootinUp]

71. Read my other posts

You are totally misreading my intention. I think it was a gaffe. No different than other gaffes by any other candidate.

[madfloridian]

79. This whole thread is totally embarrassing....to Clark.

:shrug:

[zulchzulu]

88. Ferchrissakes, why?

[madfloridian]

92. If I have to explain it, you would not understand.

Go for it. Go ahead. Our country is in no danger, no problems. Dean is the most important thing to constantly attack.

[zulchzulu]

102. Oh Lord

Get it? I'm using religious words...

Anyway, the fact that Dean stuck his foot in his mouth again when he goes off trying to play a religious know-it-all and fails is actually funny.

What's sad is that you personally can't seem to understand that. What Dean does with these gaffes is open game; it's his words that started the whole thing.

Toughen up.

[robbedvoter]

114. Cuz Gore spoketh onto the flock: "nothing shall touch HD!

His facts, his words, his flukes shall be blamed on others! So spoketh Gore!"

[zulchzulu]

119. Yunno, I was liking Clark more until you made fun of Dean's Bible gaffe

KIDDING!

Whoops, now I'm making Kerry look bad.

[maddezmom]

145. LOL!

:)

[QC]

96. How? Is he posting here under an assumed name?

Are you really sure you want to blame candidates for the behavior of some of their supporters? If so, please take a look at who is posting most of today's candidate bash threads and reconsider.

[Dookus]

100. Only in your mind...

Regular people realize this is embarassing to Dean. Clark has nothing to do with it.

[eileen_d]

80. We may be upsetting you

but please understand, anonymous message board cowards like us are not always posting on behalf of our chosen candidates.

Candidates, candidate supporters - two separate entities.

[Brian_Expat]

84. Five words: "Good cop, bad cop strategy." n/t

[eileen_d]

95. Three words: What the fuck?

I post for nobody but myself. If you want to read a conspiracy into it, feel free.

So what other constituencies am I shaming by posting on this thread? Clark supporters, for one. Kucinich supporters too. Am I also making white women who live in Montana and are freezing their asses off look bad?

OH, THE HUMANITY!

[Brian_Expat]

99. Two words: "Be civil." :) n/t

[eileen_d]

103. No time

I'm too busy apologizing to all the other white women in Montana who are freezing their asses off for my latest anonymous coward post on a completely irrelevant message board.

It's a tough job, but Dean and his supporters have inspired me!

[Brian_Expat]

110. If you knew what was good for you. . .

. . . you'd have a man (or other woman depending on your proclivities) keeping you warm during that MT winter! :evilgrin:

[eileen_d]

112. Finally! We agree on something!

:toast: :toast: :toast:

See folks, consensus can be achieved on DU!

[Brian_Expat]

115. Darlin', I live to disagree. So don't expect it often! ;) n/t

[madfloridian]

85. Aw, I did not know that.

It is ok, though. You are the ones hurting your own candidate.

[zulchzulu]

93. God, this is too damn funny

What in heaven's name was Dean thinking when he...oh nevermind.

[madfloridian]

113. Just keep on laughing.

I realize now that no matter what happens in the primaries, there is no way that Dean and Clark supporters can overcome this.

It is the same in our local area. That is too bad.

There are ways of presenting legit gripes about candidates without lessening them as human beings.

Many here have refined the art of humiliating. It is something they enjoy, and it is used to denigrate.

I don't know what the primaries hold, but I think it clear there is no way for the two groups of supporters here to regain common ground. It has gone on too long, and when someone tries to moderate things we are made fun of as well.

Just keep laughing. That is what keeps us going. We have been treated like children just long enough.

[Dookus]

120. If you act like a child, expect to be treated like one...

And to be honest, the level of apologetics here is something I'd expect of a child. A real grownup would say "Heheh.. that was dumb. But probably not a big deal."

And they'd be right.

It's NOT a big deal. But pretending that it's NO deal and attacking US for it is what keeps the fight going. Just admit he was wrong, he goofed, he'll move on. But nobody will do that... you twist and contort and bend your mind so that somehow Clark is responsible for Dean's gaffes.

[madfloridian]

121. No. You are responsible for acting decent for your candidate.

You are not. It is the way you act toward us with the smarty remarks that is just too much.

So now call me other names, child has been done already.

[Dookus]

122. I did not call you a child.

And I don't speak for ANYBODY but myself. Why is that hard to understand?

Why not admit Dean made a boo-boo and move on? This discussion would've ended an hour ago.

[madfloridian]

127. Yes, you did.

QUOTE .."And to be honest, the level of apologetics here is something I'd expect of a child. A real grownup would say "Heheh.. that was dumb. But probably not a big deal."..."

It was rude, and it was uncalled for.

[Dookus]

136. Then I apologize for any rudeness

you found in there. It wasn't my intention. I was discussing the quality of the arguments presented by all the different Dean supporters on this topic. I really DON'T find the level of the apologetics to be very high. But it wasn't personal to you.

[MiniMoog]

124. Gotta admit

That is IS pretty ironic and funny that Dr Dean selected one of the most tortured men in the bible, spun a new version when he was caught in the flub ("Many people believe....". What people? What is this man TALKING about???

Come on! If he's even read a little literature he couldn't miss this as a REFERENCE. Didn't he go to...nevermind. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "He has the patience of Job"? The boy has balls trying to pull a rewrite like this.

But it's piddling...really. But funny still if ANY of the candidates pulled this whopper! His campaign is thanking Gawd Almighty Jesus that he didn't bark this in a church.

ANY church.

Really. Think about it.

And these gaffes, lemme tell ya. The boy is trying my patience like a mug.

I honestly don't get it. Why are you so hurt?

[madfloridian]

126. Hurt? I am not hurt.

I am angry that the Clark people have gotten away with making fun of us for so long. We finally start taking up for ourselves, and we start getting kicked off.

I can not say more or I will get banned as well. You guys are really something.

Hurt? no. Angry? yes for the all the good people who have been banned. I am probably next.

[Dookus]

128. The "good people"

who got kicked off most assuredly did so for consistently violating the rules.

You seem to take all this as a personal affront. We're discussing a presidential candidate. We're doing so as individuals in a relatively unknown internet forum. We're not an organized cadre of rove-bots here to destroy Dean. The level of discussion would be raised considerably if you wouldn't treat us that way.

In this instance, the Doctor made a gaffe. Not a huge one, but a gaffe nonetheless. Instead of simply acknowledging it, the vast majority of pro-Dean posts here either deflect the argument, attack Clark, change the subject, or harp on your feigned sense of martyrdom.

Somebody says "the sky is blue". Somebody else responds "it is not! Rove put you up to this! You're lying! And anyway, Clark once said he likes blue." And then we go :shrug:

and on and on and on

[madfloridian]

130. Forget it.

I can not explain about the others. I will get banned.

Yes, a lot of it is organized.

It no longer matters. I do not make fun of Clark ever. If I have concerns I express them, but I do not humiliate.

[MiniMoog]

129. Don't lump me in with the bad Clark people MadFlordian

You have no idea of my political affiliation. Careful - it's presumptuous.

I really am very keen on understanding your feelings and thoughts regarding this particular incident. Perhaps I've mistaken your anger for "hurt". Is this a breaking point I'm not privy to?

What are you angry about, specifically? Who is making fun of you? What do you mean "getting kicked off?"

Peace

MiniMoog

edit - subject

[madfloridian]

132. What you posted was just as bad, no matter who you support.

I was raised Southern Baptist, I know Job well. I know the book, I know the story. What Dean said, and he corrected himself, is not deserving of the ridicule here.

But go for it.

[MiniMoog]

134. You must mean when I wrote

"But it's piddling...really. But funny still if ANY of the candidates pulled this whopper!"

No?

MiniMoog

[Dookus]

105. LOL...

yes, MILLIONS of people will read how Dean flubbed a basic question, and their immediate response will be "DAMN YOU WESLEY CLARK!"

It is to laugh.

[bearfartinthewoods]

161. but he said "if you know the bible...which i do"

it seems that 'what he knows" isn't safe territory either.

[zulchzulu]

66. Using "Job" is like so ironic, no?

(Job 38:1ff.). Job made a wrongful boast that landed him in serious trouble with God. Suddenly (and unexpectedly) a whirlwind appeared before Job—from which the voice of God echoed: “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me” (Job 38:2-3)

[Dookus]

70. LOL...

Damn that Rove! He wrote the Old Testament just to embarrass Dean!

[zulchzulu]

83. Dean-Lieberman-Sharpton religious matchup in tomorrow's debate?

I bet Al will have a zinger on this "issue".

[robbedvoter]

90. Al won't be there unfortunately.

[zulchzulu]

107. Or maybe fortunately...

I like Al, but it will be nice not having 38 people on stage debating...

[madfloridian]

125. Here are several paragraphs. I don't see what's so wrong.

He misnamed the testament, but what else? I do not think that is worth such a long and nasty thread. Did I miss something? I often forget which book is in which testament.

SNIP..."Asked his favorite New Testament book, Dr. Dean named Job, adding: "But I don't like the way it ends." "Some would argue, you know, in some of the books of the New Testament, the ending of the Book of Job is different," he said. "I think, if I'm not mistaken, there's one book where there's a more optimistic ending, which we believe was tacked on later." (I think he is right about that.)

Job, the Old Testament story of a righteous man who suffers hardships as a test of his faith, ends with the Lord restoring his fortunes and the protagonist living to be "an old man, and full of days." Some scholars have posited that the original ending may have been more dour. (I think that is right)

An hour after his comments, Dr. Dean returned to the clutch of reporters, saying he realized he had misspoken because Job is not in the New Testament. (He corrected himself)

"Many people believe that the original version of Job is the version where there is not a change, Job ends up completely destitute and ruined," he said. "It's been a long time since I looked at this, but it's believed that was added much, much later. Many people believe that the original ending was about the power of God and the power of God was almighty and all knowing and it wasn't necessary that everybody was going to be redeemed." (I believe this is right)

So what other mistakes did he make?

[MiniMoog]

131. No You Didn't!

It's actually WORSE when you offer the extended quotes.

I'm gonna leave it alone.

As Tom Waites sings, "The only kinda love is stone blind love."

MiniMoog

[madfloridian]

133. That is a pathetic thing to say.

:shrug:

I give up, you all win. You always do.

[MiniMoog]

137. You're exactly right

Although the Pathetique is one of my favorite Beethoven's.

I retract and apologize. It was unwarranted.

I should never have used the great Tom Waites in that context and certainly not considering it may presumably be misinterpreted as an inauthentic remark toward one as committed and passionate as yourself.

MiniMoog

[LiberalBushFan]

138. Radio hosts will be all over this tomorrow.

This and Vermont security thing. Now we are starting to experience what the GE will be like. Imagine if Dean said this in a debate vs Bush and got called out on it. It's already bad enough to have said it when he did after claiming to know the Bible well, and I'm sure this will be used again and again later on. The excuses by Dean supporters on this thread are pathetic. I really don't give a s*** if he's pandering to win over Southerners if it can help him beat Bush. But if he f***s it up every time we're not gonna beat Bush.

No comparisons with Bush's Bible knowledge please. We don't own the media like they do so we need someone who is extremely intelligent. There are several candidates who are better speakers as well as more liberal than Dean. Let's choose one.

[Dookus]

139. Good job all!

A long, heated discussion and not ONE deleted post! Well done.

[expatriot]

140. Oh man...

...as an avid as hell Dean supporter... I am starting to wonder if our zealotry is putting us in river somewhere in Egypt.

First I had to stop making fun of Bush's drunkardly past... now I have to stop making fun of him for making a lot of gaffes.

[TLM]

142. So lets see... .

When asked about his favorite book of the new testament, he just listed his favorite book, and it was one in the old testament.

Then he noted the error and pointed out that while he knows the bible well, he is not on the level of an expert or theologian.

So what's the big deal?

I did not see this much nit picky bullshit when the republicans were going after everything Gore said.

[in_cog_ni_to]

154. Ack!

This Bible quoting, preaching religion from the stump and using religion for political gain is SUCH a turn off. :puke: If I was still a Dean supporter, I would now be RUNNING AWAY from his campaign. This is so reminiscent of the shrub's campaign. :puke:

Howard better go to a Bible study class to brush up if he's going to continue his evangelical tour. :eyes:

[JPJones]

157. The point is arrogance

You left out this quote from the article:

"If you know much about the Bible -- which I do --...

OK, in what other areas does he claim expertise?

This guy is as much of a chump as Bush.

[moz4prez]

158. D'oh!

You don't even have to be raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition to know in which TESTAMENT you'd find the Book of Job, as long you've grown up in the west.

Take me, for example, raised Buddhist. And yet, I just knew.

Would be a pretty negligible mistake had the good Doctor not claimed to be well-versed in one of the most important texts in history.

[Philosophy]

165. I would love to see him debate the Bible against *

I'm sure * hasn't read any of it - he probably gets filtered versions of passages fed to him by his staff like he does the news.

[Moderator]

168. Gloria

Per DU copyright rules
please post only 4
paragraphs from the
news source.


Thank you.

DU Moderator

[Larkspur]

175. Maybe he was looking for the Book of jobs(as in employment opportunities)

Just kidding!

As a recovering Catholic and neo-Pagan, I don't have a problem with Dean or any politician, including Bush, talking about religion and which texts help form their ethics and morality. What I have a problem with is when politicians use religion to deny those who don't follow their religion human rights and/or only try to promote their religion over others.

[corporatewhore]

179. So he went with aipac again

[revcarol]

181. What I object to is:

his comparing himself to Job, who lost all wealth, family, everything...just because he's getting criticism, he's JOB?

A little thin-skinned, are you, Dean?

Like comparing an atomic bomb with a mini-firecracker.Shows arrogance.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

185. As a lapsed Catholic with a cursory memory of the bible

even I know what is in the Old Testament vs. New.
Dean sure looked phony with that slip up.