So, how should we seat MI and FL delegates?

[MercutioATC]

Notice, I did not ask "should we?", but "how should we?".

It's a political fact that they're going to be seated in some manner. I don't agree with it, but it's going to happen. How should we do it?


My idea:

FL and MI both get their delegates halved. SDs who voted to change the date get their SD votes eliminated.

FL seats at present numbers (halved).

MI seats with the undeclareds counted for Obama (again, delegates all halved)

At all times on the convention floor, delegates from MI and FL must wear shirts that say "My state cheated, and I'm sorry".


What do you think we should do?

[shenmue]

1. Didn't realize that holding your primary on a particular day meant 'cheating.'

That's a new definition of the term.

Plainly you don't like them, so why pretend to care?

Another Obama supporter who treats the situation as a joke.

Disenfranchise the Democrats in two states and you are pushing them out of the party. You've got your head even more in the clouds than I thought, if you don't see that.

[chascarrillo]

7. What did Terry McAuliffe do to Michigan's delegation in 2004?

Just curious.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Exactly, Timm Russert's quoted McAuliffe's own book on strippint half delegates from MI

if they dared to move their primary forward.

[MercutioATC]

8. "To violate the rules deliberately"...that's what "cheat" means...

FL and MI both violated the rules deliberately.

...and my post was no joke, that's exactly what I believe should be done.

[AllentownJake]

9. Seating them by half

is more than fair. There needs to be some punishment for violating the DNC rules of primary dates or there will be chaos.

[Exilednight]

11. What do you say to a cop when you're caught speeding? You know what the punishment is .......

so why complain when it's enforced?

Same thing with FL and MI. They knew the penalty before they broke the rules.

[SteelPenguin]

18. Exactly

Why enforce the rules? Because otherwise people will keep breaking them. What's to stop a state from moving their primary even earlier next time around if the rules don't get enforced? yeah but you sat the michigan and florida delegations in 2008! you should seat us this year! Who cares if we moved our primary to September of the year before the actual election!?! WE're important damnit!

They broke the rules, they got caught, their votes don't get counted. Otherwise it's pandering bullshit.

[HockeyMom]

14. Florida IS a joke

or how would you like to be greeted your first time voting in this state with, "Lookie here, we got ourselves a DEMOCRAT!!!"

Again, stupid, stupid state. Throw out ALL the votes.

[keep_it_real]

2. Half N half, even split right down the middle, nothing else

[BklynChick]

3. i agree, half each

[Pab Sungenis]

4. Seat them both

but they don't get to vote on the roll call.

[FARAFIELD]

5. OBAMA GETS TO 2209 pretty easily

Just by seating them they way they voted, so Im hoping he will be gracious and just let it stand. He still gets pledged from Florida AND it releases the supers AND she would still need some outrageous about 2-1 in supers to just tie him. So go ahead and seat them just as they are.

[MercutioATC]

16. This isn't about the candidates, it's about the process.

I don't care what Obama and Clinton agree to. I don't care who benefits. A clear message that the rules are not to be broken needs to be sent.

Obviously, the easiest and most fair solution is to just not seat the delegates at all. However, politics are what they are and the delegates WILL be seated in some way. I want to be sure that that "way" provides a very real disincentive for states to violate the rules in the future...which is why decreased representation and public humiliation were my choices.

[stevenleser]

25. The punishment is that the voting had no impact on the race as those states hoped.

The entire process will be changed for 2012 and beyond anyway.

[MercutioATC]

30. Just my opinion, but I don't think that's enough of a disincentive.

Give 'em half votes...that reduces their power without completely discounting the voters' wishes.

Publicly humiliate the delegates...that makes it personally uncomfortable, not just an intellectual argument.


Combined, I think it's a hell of a disincentive for states to break the rules in the future.

[stevenleser]

31. That isnt what I want Florida and Michigan voters to see when they tune into the convention...

please, lets not try to pull defeat out of the jaws of victory. It might have no impact, but it might really piss people off. Florida is going to be tough for Barack as it is.

[MercutioATC]

35. Obama realistically can't beat McCain in FL.

Retirees being a huge part of the electorate, Obama could be the second coming of Jesus and he'd still be too young for them.

[totodeinhere]

40. Florida's economy is in the tank. Look for a big Obama win there since "it's the economy stupid."

[stevenleser]

41. I dont know if that is true, but remember that every state Obama can at least keep close means...

that is a state that McCain has to spend money in to ensure a win. If he doesnt have to spend that money in Florida, he spends it in Ohio or Pennsylvania or Wisconsin or Colorado.

[MercutioATC]

45. True

...and McCain isn't going to have the bank that Obama is...

[stevenleser]

23. Exactly. This is a NON ISSUE

[SteelPenguin]

26. It's a non-issue NOW

It's not a non issue next primary season if other states see that there was no punishment for moving primaries forward against party rules. Then they'll stage them whenever they want, earlier and earlier, against any kind of rules, because they'll think they can get away with it.

[stevenleser]

29. The primary system is going to be completely revamped. There are already several proposals

that include states rotating which go first, etc.

[Arrowhead2k1]

6. Anyway that doesn't somehow

end up with Clinton even getting close to the nomination.

[DemsUnited]

10. I agree that they must be punished and the halved delegate solution

has the most credibility. Agree that FL should be halved as voted but have a REAL problem with Michigan as voted, even with Obama getting the undecideds.

I think that the 69 - 59 delegate split the Michigan Party Leaders recently agreed to (and the Obama camp seemed amenable to) should be accepted (then halved) and Clinton should just stop whining.

All state supers should be halved and THEY should be the ones wearing the T-Shirts!

[AllentownJake]

12. Half delegate seating

No Super Delegate seating on the roll call vote. Supers keep their invitation to the party but lose their right to vote.

[yourguide]

56. I agree. SDs deserve NO vote for this mess.

[SteelPenguin]

13. Of those choices?

The t-shirt one is intriguing. Maybe have it say "My state cheated! Ask my why I think i'm more important than you in that I get to break the rules!"

[MercutioATC]

21. Those weren't choices...that was my whole plan. I say do them all.

Decreased representation (but not a simple 50/50 which eliminates any semblance of the actual percentages) and public humiliation...I think it's a great recipe for encouraging states to obey the rules in the future.

[SteelPenguin]

24. I don't know. Why humiliate the delegates?

Most of them had nothing to do with it. It was their reps. Anyone who voted to break the rules should have their votes totally stripped and be tarred and feathered old school and carryed around the convention floor (naked tarred and featherd and rode out of the hall on a log....old school)

You do that I might be more amenable to seating the delegates in some way.

[BlooInBloo]

17. However the rules and rules-enforcers say.

[last1standing]

19. If we want to get serious about this and actually win the election we'll skip draconian punishments.

I live in Michigan and can promise you that if the state is treated like some errant child at the convention (which it was) the state will turn repub in November.

Right now, the legislature has voted to award the delegates 69-59 in Clinton's favor. I'd suggest the DNC go with this as it is the most equitable solution proposed so far. Obama and the DNC currently support this idea with the Clinton camp being the only hold out as they are claiming that no votes should count for Obama.

Anyway, whether it's fair or not, I would suggest giving Michigan back some of its self respect and stop trying to exact retribution from all of us for the idiocy of our state party. It should be enough vengeance to know that the state with the worst economy and the most people really suffering day to day is unlikely to get much attention from either a Democratic or repub president at this point. That means more children going hungry and fewer getting an education.

That's the reality of what has happened here. Real people will suffer because of this.

[earthside]

20. 100 Percent Obama Delegations

Since MIchigan and Florida defied the rules and Billary joined them in their rebellion, all the delegates should be pledged to Obama. Since the Dem leadership failed in those states to give their voters a primary within the rules, none of the supers from those states should be delegates.

That sounds fair and just, doesn't it?

[stevenleser]

22. Obama still wins if they are fully seated and vote. This is a NON ISSUE!

People need to understand that. Let them be seated. The punishment was that they were not counted at the beginning and thus had no impact on the race at that time. Good enough for me, lets move on!

[gristy]

32. I disagree - the precedent that would set for the party would be a problem

- a problem in future races as they continue to try to control state party apparatus.

[MercutioATC]

49. That's exactly my point.

If the powers that be are determined to seat the delegates in some manner, there should be a real penalty involved to discourage others from breaking the rules in the future.

[boppers]

27. Let them keep their current seats in FL and MI.

Once they hold legitimate contests, maybe think about giving them chairs in Denver. Until then, giving them any sort of seats, or vote, or delegates, undermines the whole point of having the rules in the first place. If they can't hold elections or caucuses that follow the rules, they aren't allowed to sneak into the game.

[MikeDJohn]

28. Florida can take their seats in the Gulf of Mexico and Michigan

Either in one of their Great Lakes, or in Canada, where their primary election had equal validity!

PLEASE...........Hillary supporters.............why did this NOT matter to you before Hillary lost on Super Tuesday?

[Yukari Yakumo]

33. In a tent outside the convention center.

A reasonable punishment for being a couple of colossal dumbasses.

[rocktivity]

34. Split the delgates 50/50, no superdelegates

The DNC shouldn't completely disenfranchise the MI/FL voters (though they were warned that the votes would not count). But seating the delegates as is would amount to rewarding the MI/FL Dems who deliberately violated the rules (though THEY were warned that the votes would not count). The DNC also has to think about the states that DID obey the rules, and to those in MI/FL who didn't vote because they believed the DNC when they were warned that the votes would not count. There's no way to make everybody happy. But there is way in which to: preserve the DNC's authority; punish the people responsible for moving the primary dates; discourage other states from following suit, and seat the delegates in way which acknowledges that people voted but doesn't give any candidate an advantage (because, after all, the DNC did warn everybody that the votes would not count).

I think that seating the delgates 50/50 and not seating the superdelegates is the best way to do that.

:headbang:
rocknation

[AZBlue]

36. 50/50 including SDs.

[Median Democrat]

51. Agree, Problem Solved

This is just a no-brainer of a fix.

[AZBlue]

68. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[yourguide]

55. why give the SDs any vote?

They lead their state parties into breaking the rules and made this mess. The SDs should get NO VOTE.

[AZBlue]

67. I agree but then they'll just bitch and moan.

I'd like them all to just shut up so we can move on with the more important goal of winning in November.

[Tatiana]

37. Half both delegations.

Seat Florida based on their primary and go with the 69-59 Michigan split that Michigan Dems have approved.

[saltpoint]

38. I would seat both states' delegations proportional to the total vote

of all of our original 8 candidates.

I would then appoint the leaders of their respective delegations to head an overseen-by-Dean Panel to reform the entire fucked-up nomination process including but not limited to the superdelegate system, to submit for the approval of the Chair by next Dec. 15th a workable process granting equity* to all states' primary and caucus voters.

The tripswitch for this process should be very close to a 17-17-16 breakdown as follows:

I.

The entire nominating process is to take 5-6 calendar weeks, from the first week of April of a presidential election year to the middle of May of that same year. Time is condensed, voters' attention is focused, country organizations are better honed and staffed, get-out-the-vote drives have planning time, and all candidates, no matter their initial cash advantage, have time to rasie funds to compete.

II.

*A random drawing is held among all 50 states plus territories to decide the order of the vote as follows:

First week of April, 17 states hold primaries or caucuses, as they choose. Delegates assigned proportional to vote percentage.

Third week of April, 17 more states hold their primaries or caucuses, as they choose. Delegates assigned proportionally to vote %.

Second week of May, remaining states and caucuses are held; as above, delegates assigned proportionally.

Each 4-year cycle, the drawing is held again. No state has any calendar assurance of being first, or last; any of the 50 cold be held the first, second, or third vote weeks of the process. Not least, no state may alter the arrangement to presume an earlier date on the calendar, and all candidates agree in writing to remain on the ballots, with no formal withdrawal, until the last states vote.

_ _ _

Under this proposal, Florida and Michigan would accept their reduced but not eliminated role for the 08 cycle and assume leadership roles for the pending reform.

[DanTex]

39. How about this.

First, Hillary Clinton concedes the nomination to Barack Obama, since she can't possibly win.

Then, simply seat all the delegates from MI and FL and pretend that they didn't break the rules.

And then we all unite behind our nominee and next president: Barack Obama.



This plan, of course, requires Hillary's cooperation. But, even if she does fight all the way until the convention, she still has basically no chance at the nomination. She can cause problems for the party, but she's still gonna lose.

So, it's not like she'd really be giving anything up by conceding. She would just be helping out the party.

Once Hillary concedes, MI and FL cease to be a problem.

[HooptieWagon]

42. neither state held their primary by the rules. So in effect, no primary was held.

still, rank and file Dems deserve representation. So seat half the delegates in a 50/50 ratio. Superdelegates- who instigated the fiasco- should not be seated at all. And I like the T-shirt idea... or maybe seat them in a corner with dunce hats.

[excess_3]

43. get a chair, but not a vote n/t

[zulchzulu]

44. Should the other states that followed the rules appease those that didn't?

It's as simple as that.

Do states, that were considering moving their primary voting days and decided not to, allow a couple states, that disinfranchised their voters and made their primary null and void by breaking the rules, be allowed full access?

Should we care about people who break the rules?

To me, the only FAIR way to have the Michigan and Florida delegates be able to be represented would be to give the delegates each a split IF the Democratic leadership responsible for both states are FIRED, REMOVED and NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER the Democratic Convention facilities.

The delegates would be split and half would go to Clinton and Obama. The popular vote would not count.

If we let Michigan and Florida count their delegates AS THOUGH THEY FOLLOWED THE RULES when they didn't, it allows CHAOS later.

Rules are rules. If you don't like them an break them, you get penalized.

[TheCowsCameHome]

46. If there is no penalty, why have rules at all?

Otherwise, the whole process becomes a free-for-all.

FL and MI made their beds..............

[quantass]

47. The rules tainted the results. Only FAIR solution: 50/50 split down the middle for delegates and SD

Though considering the rules were knowingly violated they should be penalized with 0 delegates as stated as a consequence otherwise why have the rules in the first place if they werent going to be enforced.

[Ytzak]

48. I think their entire delegations should be seated at the convention as elected...

One minute after the candidate is officially chosen. They can have a second balloon drop as the delegations march out and take their seats to the applause and cheers of all those delegations that followed the rules.

Changing the rules after the game is lost is what Bush has done for years in Iraq. Democrats should have a Little more integrity. The Florida and Michigan Democratic Party leadership were warned.

[SoCalDem]

50. No Supers from either state

and whatever the percentage of pledged delegates is, at the 2025 point..that's how they are seated..
POPULAR VOTES FROM BOTH ARE COUNTED AT WHAT THEY ARE..BUPKIS..

(in primaries NONE of the popular vote counts from ANY state or any combination..)

primaries are about DELEGATES !!

[NorthCarolina]

52. Kucinich has a plan

and it seems to be a pretty good one too:

<snip>

Former Democratic presidential candidate Dennis J. Kucinich has proposed a plan to seat delegations from Florida and Michigan at the Democratic National Convention based on the results of a fresh round of polling in the two states...

The plan would base the distribution of delegates on polling conducted by three firms, one selected by each campaign and a third chosen by the other two companies. Delegates would be apportioned based on the composite findings of the three polls. None of the firms could have previously been employed by either campaign.

<snip>

I think Obama would likely do well in MI, not so sure about FL but you never know, and if nothing else I am quite sure it wouldn't be a landslide for Hillary...at least not at this point in the campaign.

[dano81818]

61. you want to seat delegates based on polls?

personally i think that is insane. pollsters do not determine elections. these elections are null and void, so either none get seated or they are seated in a way that neither campaign gains an advantage from them (50-50 split, obama/clinton.)

[stillcool]

53. I like the shirts!

I'm for any solution where the rogue states are sanctioned for fucking with the rest of the "Democratic Party's Primary"

[yourguide]

54. Strip BOTH states superdelegates regardless of how the pledged delegates are seated.

period. The leaders on the state parties got their states into this mess, they should not be allowed a vote either full or pertial.

[Jazzgirl]

57. Follow the rules.

Don't seat 'em.

Or don't seat any more than half.

[redsoxrudy]

58. They must be punished.

So cut the number of delegates by half. Not seating them at all does give the GOP a talking point for the GE.I can't imagine ever voting for president based on what the parties did with their delegates during the primaries, but at least this takes the issue off the table. Use the results from florida and michigan to award the delegates. As an Obama supporter I know those numbers are bullshit, but since he will have the nomination wrapped up with or without those delegates it takes away an excuse for HRC to cause trouble at the convention. I have been pissed off before when people claim we should use those results to award delegates but at this stage we just need to be pragmatic and try to unify the party while still giving out some punishment for those states that broke rules.

[dano81818]

59. only fair way to seat them is half go to her and half go to him.

these were not real primary elections and counting them as such would simply be unfair.

FL and MI made their beds by defying the party and now they everyone has to sleep in it.

the fact that hillary thinks those delegates should go to her in the same proportion as the botched votes tallied is preposterous. it only shows how intellectually dishonest she is.

[crankychatter]

60. Clinton does not care for any solution that doesn't hand her the nomination

and she will toss Florida and Michigan delegations under the bridge in a NEW YORK MINUTE if they can't benefit HER

[stahbrett]

62. I like it all (except for the last thing with the shirts)

I've been promoting basically that same plan - the SDs lose their votes completely (if they are on record as supporting violating the rules to move their elections up), the total delegate strength is cut by 50% or 75%, Obama gets whichever delegates in Michigan that Hillary doesn't get (so if she gets 55%, he'll get the remaining 45%).

[MadBadger]

63. Give them half delegates and no popular vote

[WeDidIt]

64. Here's the only way

50-50 with half the normal delegates.

Anything else rewards rule breaking.

[platosrepublic]

66. 50 - 50 is the only fair way

Split it 50 / 50 between Barack and Hillary at the end of June.
Thats the only fair way.

[Gore1FL]

65. I would alternate them

boy girl boy girl, myself.

Seems as good as any other way to seat them.

[phrigndumass]

69. Bend slightly at the knees, and slowly lower buttocks into seat

I can't foresee either state's delegation being seated at more than 50% (halved). The states will be penalized for scheduling the early primaries against the DNC rules, that's certain. Both candidates seem to be approaching some kind of common ground, but I'm willing to bet that this doesn't get completely hashed out until after the state primaries end June 3.

How about clown wigs?