Clarence Page calls it "Angry Howard Syndrome"

[wndycty]

Interesting piece. It should be noted that Page also wars mainstream Democrats not to dismiss Dean.
==================================

The public spewing of insults

Published January 4, 2004

WASHINGTON -- While cattle farmers fret about mad cow disease, Democratic Party leaders wrestle with another sort of malady. Call it the "Angry Howard Syndrome."
-snip-

What's going on here? Put in its starkest terms, Angry Howard Syndrome is the latest manifestation of an ancient Democratic Party affliction, a divide between its sober pragmatists and its passionate idealists.
-snip

But that's not always enough for the idealists, some of whom have told me they are less concerned with making a victory than with making a point--or two or three. Think of the idealists as being one step away from voting for Ralph Nader or Jesse Jackson, should the opportunity arise again.
-snip-

After all, if candidates cannot unify their own party, voters should reasonably wonder how they are going to unify the country.
-end-

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0401040259jan04,1,2751278.column?coll=chi-news-col

[newsguyatl]

1. and funny...

just like mad cow syndrome, this one has everyone scratching their heads and wondering how to stop it, too...


such weird ironies eh?

[Hep]

2. Uh,

1. No candidate has unified the party. I guess were screwed either eay

2. Dean's policies are built on pragmatism. So claiming that it's either passion or pragmatism is patently and demonstrably false.

3. Dean can't reassure anyone who resists reassurance. And Dean supporters can't either. That problem is in the hearts and minds of those who so passionately oppose Dean.

HTH

[wndycty]

3. Dean needs to take the responsibility to truly reach out to the mainstream

. . .not just bash it.

[Hep]

4. Yeah, right.

It's HIS responsibility to reach out to the mainstream, yet there's no responsibility on the parts of Dean opponents to open their minds to him?

Get real.

[wndycty]

6. Well if he is the front runner and he wants to win. . .

. . .the first person to truly take this responsibility has both a good chance at the nomination and the general election. Its called LEADERSHIP Dean could learn a lot about it.

[Hep]

9. If you think Dean hasn't been reaching out

Then how can you explain over 550,000 verified supporters? How many does YOUR guy have? Putting it on Dean, making it about Dean is fine, but it's something that all candidates have to worry about. That Dean is singled out YET AGAIN is evidence of his strenght AND appeal.

That no one asks this of the other guys is pretty telling of what kind of shot THEY have in this cycle.

[wndycty]

11. Calling other Dems Bush lite is not reaching out. . .

. . .he should read Ms. Manners.

[Hep]

12. Changing the subject, moving the goalposts.

Calling others Bushlite is campaigning. If you see that as the worst being done, well, you know.

Anyway, you're off topic now. You were talking about appealing to the mainstream. Dean has done a good job so far and continues to set the bar so high for the primaries that NO democrat seems capable of making it.

The guy you are talking about needing to appeal to the mainstream has over 550,000 verified supporters. Who can claim to have more?

[wndycty]

13. I think its very much on subject. . .thanks. . .

:kick:

[Hep]

15. This is where you explain HOW Dean calling other D's bushlite

is on the topic of appealing to mainstream D's. And you have still yet to address the bulk of the rest of my comments.

If you think Dean is doing poorly trying to appeal, then how do you explain his unprecedented support thus far? And what do you think of the jobs that the other candidates are doing if they can't even hold a candle to Dean?

[wndycty]

19. Well who is on the ONLY candidate not to have bashed the others. . .

. . .none other than General Clark.

[Hep]

22. That's not even close to what I asked

I asked who else can claim success in mass appeal COMPARED to Dean?

[wndycty]

23. Well supporters of most candidates want Clark to be. . .

. . .the VP for their candidate. . .I am not sure if Dean is a liked by supporters of other candidates. In poll after poll Clark has been the favorite for VP, even though its a job he does not want.

[Hep]

24. Supporters of most candidate will support whoever the candidate chooses

for VP. Everything else is wishful thinking.

The point is that saying that Dean has to appeal to the mainstream is assuming he hasn't. And there is evidence that he has. There's no argument to be made here although Page tries. He made the mistake of singling out the one guy who has demonstrated the best ability thus far to appeal to a wide range of people. Clark has done a great job. But even if Clark has done a better job than Dean, it is by no means evidence that Dean not also done well.

[wndycty]

27. Just tell me, in the DU polls who has the most support for VP

Go ahead tell me who has the most support for VP.

[Hep]

30. The DU isn't mainstream.

Page said nothing about appealing to DU. And now you're talking about VP and not presidency.

[wndycty]

35. You are right. . .and Dean is still not appealing to the mainstream Democr

:kick:

[Hep]

36. It's easy enough to say

knowing a negative can't be proven. But I'll ask again, for the third or fourth time, how do you explain over 550,000 verified supporters? How do you rate the others since they don't hold a candle to Dean in terms of support? Let's see if we can't turn this circle into a figure eight.

[Hep]

38. Correction

I'm wrong to say verified. The wording is actually, "Identified supporters"

[wndycty]

44. Well there is a big difference between verified and identified.

Identified means they signed up for the mailing list. . .by those standards I am an indentified supporter.

[Hep]

47. It doesn't mean that necessarily

And you still can't deny the fact that he has generated unprecedented support to this point.

I honestly corrected my mistake and you just used it as a cop out.

[BootinUp]

43. If you want to stop the contest early like

Gore, then Dean wins, otherwise this whole argument you are making is quite pointless.

[Hep]

48. I don't follow you.

Can you explain?

[BootinUp]

53. Simple

You keep touting Deans numbers as if the race is over. Like as if it is a gimme putt. Well the opponent gets to call gimmes and we would like Howard to get it a little closer to the hole.

So how is he going to grow his numbers more? He has been working on it for a long time. Maybe he has peaked. Maybe he needs to modify his approach to get more support like the article suggests.

[BootinUp]

42. You could have asked

at DU who has the most support for POTUS. Clark has won every poll since around November here.

[Hep]

49. And I will still say DU is not mainstream,

so the question is off topic.

[BootinUp]

54. OK, then its just as off-topic

as your continued harping on 550,000 politically active people who have latched onto Dean.

[BootinUp]

40. I think I've heard it called

the invisible primary. Why do you pretend not to know how the game works?

[Hep]

50. Not about me.

I'd say my candidate knows how the game works, wouldn't you?

[BootinUp]

55. I was replying to you not Dean

This is getting silly, think I'll get some entertainment somewhere else.

[Lefty48197]

41. It will take 50 million votes to win the next Presidential election

If Dean expects to win it all, then he has about 49,500,000 Americans to convince. Reaching out is the first step.

[Hep]

51. And the first step has been taken

Explain why you think Dean has failed to reach out to the mainstream.

[bhunt70]

65. 550,000 voters doesnt win an election.

[lurk_no_more]

33. Can you verify, varified please?

” JAFO”

[Hep]

37. Ack! I screwed up

When I went to the DFA page to look it up, I saw that it didn't say "verified", but rather "identified". Total mistake on my part. But you can read it here:

http://www.deanforamerica.com

[mbali]

21. Voters have no responsibility to "open their minds" to anyone

Candidates have to win support - they are not entitled to a benefit of the doubt. If Howard Dean wants to win the nomination, much less, the presidency, he cannot sit back and expect voters to come to him. He has to reach out to them to earn their support.

[Hep]

28. The point is

that if a person is closed minded about it, there's NO way to earn their support.

Red lights, yellow l ights, and green lights.

Clarence Page is a good writer. He's level headed, fair, and intelligent. But he's wrong on this one.

The only people Dean has to appeal to are green lights and yellow lights. Ues, he has to earn their support. My point was that in order for Dean to appeal to them, they have to be open to considering him. Yellow Lights.

[mbali]

57. Most Democrats are open to considering Dean

For example, I have been open to Dean - and in fact, early on liked him quite a bit. But he has turned me off and made me very skeptical about him and his prospects. I don't feel that way because my mind is closed to him, but because he hasn't done anything to earn my support. I think many Demodrats feel that way. But the fact that he hasn't won us over should not be taken as a sign that our minds are closed or we just don't understand or they are "Bush-lite." Unfortunately, that's the attitude that many Dean supporters seem to have - that their candidate holds the key to perfect truth and anyone who doesn't think he's the second coming is somehow just not listening.

[papau]

34. Wolf called Dean reaching out "Glib"

The media has its pro Bush storyline.

[Scott Lee]

18. And cave to republicans...right?

Because that's the inevitible conclusion here. Instead of pandering to the lowest of "mainstream" bigotries, why not educate and convince to a better way? Isn't that better politicking?

[wndycty]

20. Attacking other Democrats is as bad as caving to Republicans. . .

:shrug:

[Hep]

31. Do you really believe that?

So by that logic, Clark is the only one who hasn't? Except for that one time he mocked Kerry?

[Hep]

29. The mainstream isn't like that

The mainstream is generally liberal in philosophy, but open to appeals to their emotions and pocketbooks.

[Moderator]

5. wndycty...please limit your post to 4 paragrapsh of copyrighted

material.

Thanks,
DU Moderator

[wndycty]

10. Done

I included more paragraphs to give a more balance perspective but the 4 paragraph rule limits me to including only the paragraphs that further my opinion.

Thanks

[w4rma]

7. Bull. Many pragmatists, including myself, are pro-Dean (n/t)

[JNelson6563]

8. How about Angry Ameircan Syndrome?

Seems to me more Americans get angry every day. This includes lots of Republicans, Independents, Greens, even the normally apathetic!

Yes, there is much to be angry about. We must channel the energy of that anger and direct it to constructive action. Like taking back the country. :toast:

Julie

[mermaid]

25. Right ON!!

Well said!!
I am beyond "angry" I am MAXIMUM PISSED!! And a Dean supporter for that very reason. I like his anger. It matches my own.

[Lefty48197]

45. Even the righties are mad

The out of control spending is making them all hang their heads in shame.

[shance]

63. Thank you**. Of course we are angry.

So because we are Dems and Howard Dean is a Democrat anger has now become the politically correct four letter word?

I guess all the Republicans spewing and raging over Monica Lewinsky (ie. nothing substantial) is legitimate?

This is disappointing on behalf of Page, whos articles I like for the most part.

Its another sell-out article. Its trying to AL Gorize Governor Dean.
This is of course what we have expected. The difference with the Gore candidacy is that we have to respond to these ludicrous, pointless, substance-less attacks with the truth.

[poskonig]

14. Dean is an evil Gingrich. No, he is an idealist McGovern!

:crazy:

[Raya]

16. Sad He uses his vitriol at Bush just to malign Dems calling them Bush-lite

Instead of hitting Bush and providing a vision for the future, Dean turns his audience against honorable democrats like Gephart and Kerry.

His tactic of making "Washington Democrat" into a slur is despicable
and should disqualify his as a candidate, since going to Washingto is very much a path of noble public service. Think of all the great public servants Dean slime with his campaign strategy.

[Hep]

17. Honorable democrats who voted for IWR and Patriot Act.

RIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

[Terwilliger]

26. Kerry and Edwards BOTH have used the "Bush lite" meme before

in fact, most of them have made mention of that

[Hep]

32. Great point.

but I'm afraid the bar is adjustable on this one.

[TankLV]

39. It's Clarence Page for christ's sake! - might as well say

"safire criticicizes dem" or "novak". Same difference.

He's an Uncle Tom bigtime. Who cares what he says when he's not got his tongue deep up bunkerboy's ass?

[chimpymustgo]

46. That's a pretty serious charge against Page. Wanna back it up?

Page is not a raging leftie, but he's no right wing ass kisser. And who gives you authority to call someone an Uncle Tom?

[QC]

52. That's the way things work here now.

Anyone who expresses reservations about Howard Dean, or simply fails to endorse him, is human garbage.

After endorsing Clark, Andrew Young was called an Uncle Tom here and Charles Rangel was dismissed as a old hack. James Carville and Paul Begala have also been pushed off the reservation now, as well as a number of other loyal Democrats.

This kind of thing is silly and will make it very hard to get the party behind any nominee.

[wndycty]

56. Calling Clarence Page "Uncle Tom" shows desperation on the part of. . .

. . .certain Dean supporters. I would also ask if the poster who called Page Uncle Tom is even African American.

[Raya]

58. Dean Supporters will say anything to Cover-up Dean Gaffs and Issues

[RetroLounge]

66. Except we know how to spell Gaffe...

eom

[RetroLounge]

67. Who cares if he is black, brown, white or yellow?

or are you part of the PC police now? Can only blacks use "Uncle Tom" in a sentence now?

Desperation is falling from the other candidates and their supporters, not Dean, not Dean supporters.

[Leilani]

59. I Don't Have Anything Against Dean

I have listened to and analyzed all the candidates.

I just don't agree with Dean on a few issues: middle class tax cuts, health care reform, etc.
Also, we are at war & the Pres candidate need foreign policy & nat'l security experience at this time in history.

My only problem with Dean is his supporters: they insult other candidates & supporters in a very mean way. Their attitude is if we don't support Dean we are ignorant, nuts, unDemocratic, etc.
It is very devisive & patronizing.

I think Dean has run a terrific campaign, but I think his supporters have really gone over the top with their attacks.

[stickdog]

60. Yes! The only way to "unify the party" is to ignore the wishes of

Democratic voters and nominate a business-as-usual DLC Corpocrat!

[Raya]

61. Unfortunately, the record shows Dean to be BAU, DLC, PoliticAsUsual

even more so that anyone he criticises. Check the facts. The
sad, sad facts. (The one the Guv lets us get to.)

[TeacherCreature]

62. fortunately that is not true

try again, the sad sad facts are that your smears are getting more and more impotent.

[mbali]

69. If a majority of Democratic voters

pick someone other than Dean, how would that "ignore the wishes of Democratic voters?"

[AngryAmish]

64. Whenever someone says that Dean supporters are angry and unreasoning

I just want to kick them in the balls.

[RetroLounge]

68. But what if they are female?

eom