Has Dean received a free pass on the size of Vermont?

[snyttri]

Since everyone is campaigning in New Hampshire other candidates are not in a position to bash Vermont. Among all the states Vermont (pop. 600,000, small area and no cities) may be most like a county and least like a state.

Dean saves only $400,000 when he cuts the state's reccommended nuclear preparedness budget.


"But even after Ready's report recommended the state's nuclear preparedness spending triple from $400,000 to $1.2 million, Dean budgeted only half the increase."

http://tinyurl.com/2tgwy

[OhioStateProgressive]

1. yep, Kucinich was in charge of more people in Cleveland(nt)

[Jerseycoa]

12. Clark was in charge of more people in the army nt

[hippiechick]

2. Arkansas isn't very big and that Clinton dude did ok in Washington ...

:eyes:



:hippie:

[Maddy McCall]

7. Arkansas has, what, 5 TIMES the population of Vermont?

Little Rock itself has over 200,000 residents.

[slinkerwink]

111. Actually, in 1992, the state population was 2x the population of Vermont

so it was 2,000,000 to Dean's 600,000, which is statistically a similar population.

[Maddy McCall]

114. WRONG! 1990 Census data

Arkansas: 2,673,400
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsTable?_lang=en&_vt_name=DEC_1990_STF1_DP1&_geo_id=04000US05

Vermont: 562,758
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsTable?_lang=en&_vt_name=DEC_1990_STF1_DP1&_geo_id=04000US50

I don't know why you are fudging the ratio, but let's look at it for a sec.

562,758 X 2 = 1,125,516 ------hmmmm...I would say you are skewing your figures.


562,758 x 4.5 = 2,532,411 with almost 150,000 remainder

So, it is safe to say that, according to the 1990 census, Vermont's population was less than a quarter Arkansas.

How can you argue against hard figures? Enough of your overzealous bombast already.

[snyttri]

8. Arkansas is small, not the smallest, or the easiest to govern.

And there's a war now.

[hippiechick]

25. yes, but your argument was used against Clinton in '92 ...

... and turned out to be a fallacy then, too.


:hippie:

[snyttri]

46. It was less valid-Arkansas is much bigger and has bigger problems.

[Padraig18]

49. They're the same freakin' problems!

Give it a rest, why dontcha?

[GURUving]

3. Bush got a free pass on running Texas into the dirt

debt, poor education,crappy economy, etc. I don't think there is really a comparison to be made.

It seems to me the same argument as "no foreign policy experience."

Whoopdedoo. Having a brain is an important thing, and look what the current resident has done for foreign relations? For the economy? For education? For employment?

[BeyondGeography]

18. Bush brings 34 electoral votes with him

Howard brings 3.

But that's just us Democrats, thinking with our hearts and checking our heads at the door again.

[corporatewhore]

109. And Bush did not win if you rember

and i dont think SCOTUS would dubb dean the king of the us like they did for w

[ProudToBeLiberal]

4. what are you advocating?

that we should have presidents who are from bigger states? That would ignore half the states. I mean Reagan came from california...if you're advocating that people from bigger states are more worthy then....

edit-spelling

[snyttri]

26. Someone bragging about his accomplishments in the least impressive

state to govern is standing on very shaky ground. The only reason he hasn't been challenged on the smallness of hisVermont accomplishments is because it would annoy N.H.. That will not stop the GOP.

[maxanne]

40. least impressive state?

your regionalism is showing - not to mention your desperation.

Oh - and by the way - this drivel has been covered here, ad nauseaum.

[snyttri]

67. Name a less impressive state to claim as experience for president?

The other candidates have not touched not on it and the media barely have.

[maxanne]

69. perhaps

they lack your obvious regional bias and prejudice.

[snyttri]

78. New England GOP will not be shy about bashing Vermont

[maxanne]

84. I doubt very much

if that's the case. I doubt very much if you're from New England. And furthermore - I doubt very much if the GOP should be chosing the Democratic candidate.

[snyttri]

90. The GOP attacked the much larger state of Arkansas to skew Clinton's

qualifications. It's nothing personal against Vermont. To win the election I think the Democrats should pick the candidate who can be mosteffective and best withstand GOP attacks,

[maxanne]

93. so what you're really

saying, is that the GOP should determine our candidate for us?

[snyttri]

99. We should pick a candidate who can convince non=Dems to vote Dem.

Mobilizing the base while turning off the center could result in losing to an unpopular president or a lower office rout to a popular president.

[vision]

102. Kansas

I was born and raised in Kansas and I can honestly say that even though the people are generally good people the state is not "impressive" in most ways. Size-wise it isn't that small but the population is only iirc 2.68 million.

Truely Missouri isn't that "impressive" either but one of the better Presidents of the 20th century came from there.

[Padraig18]

5. ummm, where is this 'pass' you refer to?

:wtf:

[snyttri]

10. no criticism from other candidates-he'd be bashed in general for

being small time

[Padraig18]

15. What?

Huh? :wtf: again? What does this have to do with $400K?

[snyttri]

34. Dean's budget's as governor of a tiny state involve very small dollar

amounts. If you read the article, you'll see that Vermont has one full-time employee on its emergency preparedness team.

Dean has not been put on the spot for having only county size governing experience.

[Padraig18]

37. Of course he has.

Do you think you're the first person who's ever noticed that he's from VT? Trust me, Kerry, Clark, et all know. BTW, for the record, who DO you support in the primaries?

[snyttri]

48. No candidate has criticized him for governing few people, that I've seen.

I support Clark, as I stated further down.

[Padraig18]

52. And rightly so they haven't.

it's an utterly ABSURD argument!

[snyttri]

55. Its absurd to take the reponsibilities held in a previous job into account

when considering someone for another job.

[Padraig18]

57. It's an absurd argument

A state is a state, and a governor is a governor---- and GOOD governors are rare, successful ones even more rare. Don't you think if ANY candidate considered this to be an issue, they would NOT have raised it this late in the game?

[snyttri]

61. Obviously, they're not going to bash Vermont from New Hampshire.

Is that clear?

[Padraig18]

62. What's 'clear' is that this is a non-issue.

:eyes:

[snyttri]

66. Dean supporters eem to think voters will give the same weight to

governing California as governing Vermont. That realism is comforting.

[maxanne]

88. you don't know

what you're talking about. NH isn't all that fond of VT. VT is full of pinko hippie socialists, unlike our own Republican rednecks.

I'm betting you're from someplace like Georgia.

[snyttri]

96. Candidates aren't going to bash a small state for being small from

another small state that shares most of its border, even if the average voter is more liberal in Vermont.

[aldian159]

112. Its easier to be a good governor

when your state has less people than most metropolises

[TeacherCreature]

6. HA HA HA

DID DEAN SET THE BORDERS FOR VT? Why would he need to be excused for the size? D'oh!

[Dookus]

9. No...

the point is we should put Dean's much-vaunted governance in perspective. Vermont is the size of a medium-American city, and is 98% white.

[Padraig18]

11. Cities don't have multi-level court systems, or international borders...

.... among other things. A state is a state, and being the governor of one is being the governor of one.

[snyttri]

16. You don't have to make govs president if you think they're minor league

[Padraig18]

19. No.

And you don't have to make senators from large states president because they come from large states, either, or Congressmen from large states, or former ambassadors from large states, or....


What IS your point?

[snyttri]

22. Dean is always bragging on his accomplishments in Vermont.

When people around the country focus on how few people are affected they will not be so impressed. Vermont may be the least impressive possible state to base a record of accomplishment on.

[Padraig18]

27. in YOUR opinion.

A state is a state, and a successful governor is a successful governor.

[TeacherCreature]

41. I am sorry but this is the funniest attack yet

Got anything else. BTW, who is your candidate?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

14. so we shoyuld completely ignore his executive experience?

that's bs. As from the 98 percent white that fact doesn't seem to deter people from his campaign who are minorities. I mean for example he got the endoresemnt of cumming, jesse jackson jr, and etc

[snyttri]

13. Bringing health care to most of a county is not much to brag about.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

17. so we should completely ignore that fact?

Everything starts out small. If Dean demonstrated that he could bring health care and blance a budget in a small state then that just goes to show that he's ready for the big show. I mean a singer doesn't automatically become a superstar. They start small.

[snyttri]

20. don't ignore it, but it's a big leap of faith from county to president

[ProudToBeLiberal]

21. well

it's a big leap for anybody no matter what your previous position was. I thought the U.S.A was a country where anybody was capable of becoming president. Are you applying a litmus test of who can and can't?

[snyttri]

23. Certainly he can run, but as voters focus on his record, they will be

disappointed that his accomplishments are based on what some people think of as a county-size population rather than a state.

[Padraig18]

24. know that for a fact, do you?

:eyes:

[snyttri]

28. How could anyone be impressed with mastering the governing of

Vermont compared to any other state? Maybe there is a less impressive state to govern, but I can't think of one. The governor of Rhode Island has to deal with the big city poverty in Providence.

[Padraig18]

30. Apparently many are.

He's kicking the living snot out of everyone else in the polls, and as far as fundraising. Who do YOU support, just for the record? :)

[snyttri]

35. I support Clark

[TeacherCreature]

43. D'oh! should have guessed

did your talkign points come right from the clark slog too?

[hippiechick]

71. Please tell us what city or state budget Clark has managed ?

Oh, wait ... we're attacking Dean for what he has done, not discussing any other candidate's LACK of governing experience ... :eyes:


:hippie:

[snyttri]

76. I think Clark's experience winning the NATO war and running the

southern command are a lot more valuable to getting a Democrat elected.

If the primaries were set up differently I think other candidates might call attention to how few people Dean had responsibility for when he boasts about what he did in Vermont, but not from New Hampshire.

[drfemoe]

98. no win

Sorry to have reality intrude, but Clark didn't "win" the war in Kosovo .. it goes on.
*** warning explicit images of human suffering *** .. http://www.kosovo.com/default2.html

And two out of three of the criminals he went after got AWAY! They are still "in hiding".
B* has a better batting average than that (assuming his definition of a "terrorist")!
He is 1 of 2. Clark 1 of 3.

[snyttri]

100. The Kosovars in my neighborhood say he won.

[drfemoe]

106. lucky for them

they weren't in that train or on that bridge or in that hospital ...

[maxanne]

44. so by all means

since only people from big important states are qualified to be president - let's just forget about the election all together and hand it to Bush. :eyes:

By the way snyttri - are you from a big important state?

[stickdog]

29. Damn! You're right!

I've never, ever heard this before!!!

[Padraig18]

31. /sarcasm off

:P

[zulchzulu]

32. Vermont has same population size as Austin, Texas

You can bet Bush would use that line...

[Padraig18]

33. OooOOoOOOOo, I'm soooooooooooooooo scared!

NOT! :eyes:

[snyttri]

39. Vermont is a small percentage of the Austin metro population.

Vermont is a small percentage of many metro areas in Texas.

[Padraig18]

42. So?

How many metro areas of Texas have a multi-level court system or share a border with Canada, among other differences. A state is a state, and a successful governor is a successful governor. No ther way to spin that one, I'm afraid.

[zulchzulu]

60. Actually I think you are scared

To think that Bush would not use that one-liner in a debate is to think that it never rains in Seattle.

[Padraig18]

64. Think what you will.

I'm not. :eyes:

[TreasonousBastard]

77. Didn't Bush I...

try to discredit a "failed governor from a failed (and small) state" down south somwhere?

It may be a silly point, especially now coming from the failed governor of a large state and now failed President, but it seems there should be a better answer than "nyah nyah nyah."

[snyttri]

83. Since Arkansas has a pop. of 2.7 million copared to 600,000 for Vermont

the Clinton comparison may not work. Arkansas is a big state by Vermont standards.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/05000.html

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. When I look at this...

Vermont census, I wonder the same thing. It appears that he has. There's NO comparison.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/50000.html

[drfemoe]

38. I didn't know Dean was responsible for the population size of VT?

n/t

[Padraig18]

45. Yes, and he also eats kittens. n/t

[TeacherCreature]

47. YES, and he is getting a pass for that

I guess it's something about allowing women to use birth control or something......... :srug:

[Raya]

50. No. But He Boasts His "Mayoral" Exp. Transfers to National Government

I delivered health insurance to all (not true btw)
I balanced the budget ( Smaller that many towns, during Clinton boom)
I made bike paths .....

It is so rediculous it isn't funny.

[Padraig18]

53. Sorry, but KUCINICH has mayoral experience.

Dean has gubernatorial experience.

[OhioStateProgressive]

74. actually

Mayors in the old "ward" style of government had IMMENSE powers

I'm not dragging an argument out of you, but only to say that what you think of as "mayor" is not what Cleveland had in the 1970's and before

[corporatewhore]

110. kucinich was confronted by big business

and stood his ground
Dean was in bed w/big business in the vermont gov mansion

[Gretchen]

80. Kucinich not only has "Mayoral" exp, but is a 4-time Congressman

. . . and served in the Ohio Senate.

Wow. That shows leadership at the local, state and federal level.

[w4rma]

51. Fine with me. Less chances to get corrupted. (n/t)

[snyttri]

56. Is it best to put someone with a full-time emergency response tem

of one in charge of the free world?

[Padraig18]

58. Oh, get over it!

This is the most rtidiculous non-issue that has EVER been posted on this board! :eyes:

[snyttri]

63. The countyness of Vermont will get major attention in GOP ads if Dean

survives. The candidates and press have not been previewing that weakness.

[Padraig18]

65. GIVE IT UP! THIS IS A NON-ISSUE!

I'm not going to debate this ridiculous idea further. Good night!

[maxanne]

72. yep

if Dean had been a better governor, he'd have waged war with NH, beat us and made Vermont a bigger state.

Oh, and he should have left home at age 4 and been adopted into a poor black family. What was he thinking?

[snyttri]

75. Some voters will wonder if someone in charge of something the size

of their county should jump directly to president. You are pretentending if you think it won't be an issue. The GOP will make sure everyone knows the population of Vermont is 600,000.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snyttri]

91. If I was concerned for the GOP I would be supporting teir favorite

candidate, Howard Dean.

[maxanne]

95. that's a tired

old message, snyttri.

The GOP is far more enamored of Lieberman - who leans toward them, or Clark, who used to be one of them.

[drfemoe]

94. I think

B*wacko executed almost that many as gov of TX .. so I doubt Dean is tooooo worried about the Reich Wing pushing this "perception".

And how many Kosovians were killed during the NATO "rescue"?
And Iranians? et al ..

[dave29]

81. countryness?

Dean's rural credentials and plans could steal a huge chunk of the southern vote. The GOP depends on the "rural" vote - this is one of Dean's hidden assets.

[jpgpenn]

54. There are more cows then people in Vermont.

Does that answer the question?

[Padraig18]

59. Who is YOUR candidate, btw?

We'd all like to know.

[maxanne]

70. no there aren't

and haven't been since the early 1980's. :eyes:

[jpgpenn]

82. well i wasn't too far off

http://www.uvm.edu/EPSCoR/Geography.htm

[maxanne]

86. seing as how

your statistics are almost 10 years old:

http://www.vermontagriculture.com/faq.htm

http://www.ehr.nsf.gov/epscor/statistics/glance.cfm?st_abbr=VT

http://www.ers.usda.gov/StateFacts/VT.HTM


Don't let me stand in the way of some good old fashioned state bashing, however.

[jpgpenn]

87. bashing?

yea if u say so

[maxanne]

89. oh

like this whole thread isn't a big bash Vermont/Deanfest?

[dave29]

68. My theory on Dean and Vermont

Dean acquired certain skills running a small state that will benefit him in the long run (and already has).

1) As Governor of a small state - Dean retained a closer connection to the people he governed. Politics becomes more serious when you know the people you are effecting with policy. He has talked about seeing people in the grocery store and how the politics takes on a whole new meaning. Compare this to larger states where Governors are more or less out of touch with the little guy - and stand more of a chance of losing touch. The same effect happens to people with long careers in Washington. Dean also acquired a real understanding of people's problems (and a passion to fix them) while he was a doctor. As Dean has said this election is not about him - it's about taking the country back - for us.

2) He has taken this power to connect with the citizenry national - and it is one of the secrets of his campaign. Dean "gets" it in a way others don't - and it is why he has a full-on national campaign - even visiting Utah more than once - he wants the American people to know he really understands where they are coming from. He is out and listening, and empowering. And he is truly an outsider in that sense.

3) Dean achieved results for his constituents by staying in the center. In a smaller state you can't afford to just stick with your base - politics is more personal. Dean's methods were not the same George W. Bush method of getting his base and a few moderate dems, but by thouroughly pissing off the far right and the far left (who always scream the loudest). In this way he became an extremely successful Governor.

4) Dean wants to take this model to the national level. He has seen what the lobbyists do in Washington. He has seen how the national Democrats have failed their constituency on so many levels. It is the passion for the little guy he has built up being close to his constituents in a small state that will take him to Washington and in our plans to shake things up.

I have no worries about Dean running the National Ship. Running Vermont was not a liability, but rather a perfect fit for a man like Dean who's idealism is striking a chord across the country. He has already proven to be more effective than the entire Democratic Apparatus, whom are squirming and squealing at his success. By that alone, and with the mandate of the people (rather than big businesses) who support him - Washington could see the change in leadership we've needed so sorely, for such a long time. Howard Dean clearly fits the bill. He will do what's best for all Americans - not just the fringes - as he proved in Vermont.

[WillyT]

73. Stop The Presses !!! - Dean Comes From Small State, Dems In SHOCK !!!

I guess we ought to throw in the towel folks. No more candidates from anywhere but California. Or maybe Alaska???

Which measure of size would you prefer?

And is this 'size' thing another one of those male insecurity issues?

:evilgrin:

Jeez...

:hurts:

[hellhathnofury]

79. I thought Vermont was a small irrelevant state filled with nationally

insignificant lefty pinko abortion supporting enviromentalist hippies.

I would be worried if he was getting a pass the size of maybe say California(Arnold)or Texas(Bush), at least.

Boy how the tunes are a-changin'.

[LiberalBushFan]

92. yes, he has for the most part received a free pass on it, FOR NOW

he won't as we approach the general election, if he gets that far

[drfemoe]

97. thanks for the heads-up

:thumbsup:

[askew]

101. Considering he's the ONLY democratic candidate who has held the top

executive position in their government, which is the closest comparable position to President, I am not concerned. He was the top executive in VT for 11 years. That is impressive regardless of the size of the state.
The fact that he was elected 5 times in a small state shows where it impossible to hide from your citizens is impressive.
The fact that he balanced the budget 5 times is impressive.
The fact that he has experience with trade agreements with other countries (Mexico and Canada do count) is impressive.
The fact that he had to work with a bi-partisan legislature to pass legislation and balance his budget is impressive.
The fact that he has provided healthcare for the children and elderly of VT is impressive.

No other candidate in this race has has this record to stand on, nor Dean's executive experience and it is impressive.

What is not impressive, is this silly criticism of the size of Vermont.

[Dookus]

103. And his support in elections

went from a peak of over 75% to 50.4% in his last election. He even managed to turn off 25% of the homogenous Vermont voting population.

25% of the voters who knew him best and longest rejected him. And he's supposed to bring NEW voters to the polls? I guess he'd have to - the old ones don't much care for him.

[incapsulated]

104. Who are we to argue with half a million white people?

The Bronx has more than twice as many people as Vermont.

Let's make Adolfo Carrión Jr. Presdent.

He won the "Friend of City Cyclists" award! :)

http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/030509bikeweek.html

[mitchum]

117. HAHAHAHA! Funniest post of the day!

really, that's good

[Clark Can WIN]

105. The Mayor of Vermont

This is what will be heard about him if he's the nominee. He's received a pass for now but it would not last.

There are more people in the Omaha Nebraska metropolitan area than the whole state of Vermont. I never realized how tiny it really was.

[drfemoe]

107. thanks for the heads-up

:thumbsup:

[windansea]

108. yo snyttri

way to rip brah

:yourock:

[JVS]

113. Since when is being a governor a resume stain that needs a free pass?

What's next, Clark should stop getting a pass for being a mre 4 star General, where the hell is the fifth star?

[billbuckhead]

115. Metro Atlanta has 3 counties larger than Vermont in population

and there's no comparison in wealth or problems. Hell, mayors have a tougher time than the Governor of Vermont.

[Hep]

116. Idunno, is there a state-size requirement?

n/t

[billbuckhead]

118. Is being mayor of Philadelphia harder than governor of Vermont?

County commissioner of Dekalb county Georgia or governor of Vermont? CEO of a Fortune 5000 company or governor of vermont? Los Angeles police chief or governor of vermont?

[Hep]

119. Harder?

It's probably harder to be a neurosurgeon than to be any of those. Your point?

If your best argument against Dean is that Vermont is small, I love our chances.