Well, the debate isn't even half over...

[cms424]

and I'm convinced of it. Joe Lieberman is a Republican.

Talking about how he fought for tax cuts, and how people now have that money to use to pay for insurance? That's a Republican argument if I ever heard one.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Ayuh

That doesn't make sense to me as a lefty, for sure.

I'd rather see him fight for fair taxes and universal health care...

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Ayep

But he is better than bush

[cms424]

4. Maybe...but

Not much. And he's the ONLY candidate I would say that about.

[newyawker99]

34. Hi cms424!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Cat Atomic]

7. Is he?

I don't think he is, personally. The one good thing about Bush is that he's the most transparent corporatist in this country's history. He's so absolutely despicable and up-front about it that he's creating a groundswell of opposition to his agenda.

I doubt Leiberman would be such a lightning rod.

[rumguy]

5. I don't get Lieberman's strategy...he can't possibly be playing to win

after Saddam was captured, saying Dean is in a "spider hole of denial" - WTF? All his attacks on Dean are getting old...

I don't get him at all, what is his agenda I ask?

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. He's hoping W will pick him for VP

to replace Cheney?

[Gin]

8. dean=dean=dean is his target....he rarely mentions bush....maybe he has

altzheimers..joe forgot what race hes running in.

[Turtleboy22]

9. More Lieberman Hate on DU...

Yes, you got that right. This lifetime Democrat who has done more for the party and good liberal causes than any of you is really a secret Republican.

Why?

Because he's religious? Because he supported the war? Because he is in favor of lower taxes for WORKING PEOPLE?

If you are any of those things, are you saying there is no room for you in the Democratic party?

No woner why the Dems will get crushed next November.

Run on hate, run on anger, compare Bush to Hitler, cast out anyone in the party that doesn't agree with the Kucinich Left.

All that will get you is a 50 state Bush electoral college win.

[thebigidea]

10. whereas Lieberman will rocket us to victory! to VICTORY!

he can't even make double digits in the polls, but somehow he's our only hope!

[rumguy]

11. He stands no chance of winning the nom because all he does is attack Dean

that's no way to win a nom...he's not even trying anymore...

[Cat Atomic]

12. There's already a Republican candidate.

The tax cuts he's so supportive of were not for the middle class, and you know it.

[BuelahWitch]

35. Actually he'd be doing us a favor if he ran as a Republican..

..give * some competition...

[rumguy]

13. lower taxes for WORKING PEOPLE?

no, lower taxes for the rich and the corporate interests...ha ha...

the working people get stiffed, their health insurance gone, crap jobs, all the good ones being shipped overseas.

Yeah, those tax cuts are for the working people...yeah right, I'm laughing that's the funniest thing I've heard all weekend...hilarious.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Yeah, that 50 dollars a year in tax cuts has been a real boon.

Of course my local taxes went up, my health insurance went through the roof, and gas prices and utilities are sky high!


Woohoo! I am living the high life now.

[cms424]

41. That's what Dean was trying to say...

and the others didn't understand. Or rather, they pretended not to understand because they didn't want to admit that he was right.

[flaminbats]

17. More hate of Dean than Lieberman at DU..

Yes, you got that right. This longtime Democrat who has done more for the party and good liberal causes than any of you is really a Newt Republican.

Why?

Because he's religious? Because he opposed the war? Because he favors lower taxes for future generations?

If you are any of those things, are you saying there is no room for you in the Democratic party?...but the primary voters decide who gets the nomination. And losing the nomination doesn't=no room for other opinions.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turtleboy22]

22. Just because I'm new

Does that mean I'm a troll?

Is there any room for Lieberman supporters on DU?

[liberalhistorian]

25. No, just because you're new

doesn't mean you're a troll, of course not.

But can you please tell me specifically what is the difference between Lieberman and the Bushistas? Because as much as I've wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt these past two years, I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise. I think my other two posts on here explain my problems with him.

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Sure, just don't insult those of us who dislike him as a candidate.

Personally, I find his positions too conservative and hate the way he whines about other dems and acts like the injured party every time something doesn't go his way. Going on every right wing hate radio show to whine about how Gore wronged him didn't exactly endear him to me. Nor did the fact that his campaign has basically been "Support me! I'd have done exactly what Bush did, but I'm a democrat."

If I wanted to vote for Bush's policies I can vote for Bush.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. "Support me! I'd have done exactly what Bush did, but I'm a democrat."

Not bad.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[auburnblu]

40. Seems like very little support for the middle ground here.

Turtleboy,

Like yourself I'm a Lieberman fan and like yourself I'm fairly new to this forum and wonder if a fan of Lieberman or any moderate/conservative Democrat is welcome here. I've seen a lot of attacks on different candidates on this forum. It sometimes seems like we see more attacks than positive statements, sigh.

Lieberman had a rough year in 2003, started the year far ahead in the polls and fell hard as Dean energized a lot of his emerging base. I would imagine that when Lieberman acknowledged his biggest mistake was focusing in the past too much on criminal rights and not enough on victim's rights that many on here were furious.

Lieberman and apparently the two of us are not out of touch with everyone in the Democratic party, but we seem like extremists on this forum.

[papau]

19. Joe is a good Dem, but with the wrong solutions for 04

He indeed is a lifetime Democrat who has done much for the party and indeed for good liberal causes including being there for civil rights.


While many at DU do not appreciate the religious belief system of others - to the point of only wanting to point out their superior intellect in being non-religious - the vast majority of the Democratic Party are quite religious - and Joe is very mainstream.

But support of the path chosen to contain Saddam - the war - in place of other paths such as the intrusive inspections that were agreed to last March by all except the US and Brittain, is not a mainstream position. But it is not a far out position either - given the Bush presented Intel pre March I am not sure if a majority on DU would have opposed the IWR.

And lower taxes for WORKING PEOPLE is basic Dem with Joe on the right side. But, while Howard is correct that net-net - - after the state tax increases, etc. caused by the tax cuts is factored in - - no middle class or poor person got a net "tax cut" if we want to use tax cuts to increase the living standard of the poor and middle class, this position has the Kerry problem ( of being correct on the IWR vote - but needing 14 paragraphs to explain why it was correct), Howard needs 14 paragraphs to explain how the child tax credit, marriage penality removal, and new 10% bracket - if viewed in the context of the total bill - were only pennies used to cover-up the screwing of the non-rich. I think Howard needs to rethink his position.

[Turtleboy22]

23. Thank you

Thank you for an intelligent, thoughtful, honest post, that isn't just filled with anti-Joe virtriol.

Most people here can't even say that Lieberman IS Good Democrat.

Thanks also for the religious points too.

:)

[Gin]

32. I voted for him in 2000.......I apologize for hurting your feelings with

my criticism of Joe.

Family members need to develop tough skin when their relatives are in a national race.

[liberalhistorian]

24. It's not that we don't appreciate

his religious views and recognize his total right to hold whatever views he wants and practice in whatever ways he wants. Hell, I'm a church-going Christian (albeit a very liberal one, lol!), who cherishes my right to do so.

It's when he says things such as "The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion, and we should all recognize that we come from the same awesome god", and assists in passing faith-based charity legislation and attempts to impose his own morality and religious beliefs on the rest of society that the rest of us have a problem. He does NOT have the right to do that.

[spooky3]

36. I agree with some of what you say but disagree about

why DUers have concerns re: Lieberman and religion.

The notion that DUers in general object to his being religious is not supported by the majority of posts that I have seen on this topic. I don't care what views he has in his personal life, and obviously EVERY person in some sense believes his views to be "superior" to others, or else s/he would change those views!

DUers object to Lieberman's apparently not understanding, probably because he does not WANT to understand, not because of being unable to read or being stupid, what the Constitution says in the Establishment clause, and does not support it as he should. This is frightening for people who want a clear separation of church and state as did the Framers. He for example claims that it protects only "freedom of religion" and not "freedom from religion." This is simply wrong and inconsistent with Supreme Court interpretations, over a long period of time. As one lawyer put it, "he must have missed class when they talked about that in law school." Bush has tried hard to ignore this precedent and Lieberman seems to have more in common with Bush than with Democrats who respect the Constitution.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. I think that the problem with Lieberman is

that many of his current positions appear to be very similar to those of George Bush. Many of us here fear that one whose policies are so close to Bush will have no hope of winning the White House. I'm watching the debates right now, and I haven't heard anything from Lieberman's lips that make me think that he is positioning himself being that different from Bush.

But please don't insist that because many of us here don't like Lieberman's positions we won't vote for him. If he is nominated, I will support him and work for him as well as vote for him. The whole point of this is to get rid of Bush.

[liberalhistorian]

21. He has every right to be religious,

my friend. But what he doesn't have the right to do is shove religion down everyone else's throat and use his beliefs to push his idea of morality on society. Any candidate that agrees with Raygun's bullshit statement that "The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion", and who carries it a step further by saying that "we all must recognize that we come from the same awesome god" sure as hell ain't gonna get this liberal Christian's vote.

And as for supporting the war, if he's so intelligent, why couldn't he have seen how fake and cooked the so-called "evidence" was concerning Iraq's so-called possession of WMD's, so-called (non) responsiblity for 9/11 and so-called (non-existent) ties to Al-Quada? He's such a strong hawk that he doesn't care how the "war on terrorism" is waged and what damage it does to our country as long as we appear to be doing "something" and as long as he's able to "look tough" on national security. Apparently, he only cares about fake violence on video games, and not the real, horrible, violence of war we're causing in Iraq.

And as for tax cuts, the majority of tax cuts have gone to the very people who need them least, the wealthy and upper-class, and NOT to the rest of us, least of all working people. At this point in his life, he's incredibly out-of-touch and I frankly think he couldn't care less about the "working people", and has no idea what we deal with on a daily basis.

And instead of recognizing that the Bushistas are the greatest danger we've ever faced as a nation, he chooses to do nothing but cut down and criticize fellow Dems instead of Shrub, and he cozies up to the Bushistas to pass the "faith-based charity legislation, and all kinds of other bullshit.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Lieberman is nothing but repuke-lite, and I wish he would just make it official and formally switch parties. If he's the nominee, I probably won't even vote because he wouldn't be much better.

[last1standing]

39. This is a relatively liberal and partisan forum.

As the antithesis of free republic it's going to be hard on anyone running to the right of most Democrats. This is a good place for us to meet up and vent some of these feelings.

But I'll tell you what, if you can get freeperville to stop I'll be glad to lend you my support here. :)

[CTLawGuy]

42. So,

Someone who believes that having democratic principles is a ticket to loserville, who uses God to promote himself, who openly supports an illegal, immoral war, who whines about "morality", cavorts with high-rollin Bill Bennett, threatens to censor Hollywood and the music industry, stabs Gore in the back (criticizing him for his very Democratic and successful "people vs. the powerful" message)

is a DEMOCRAT?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Joe Lieberman

is now asking Dean to open his records. Dean is rebutting now. He says it is to protect privacy. He says the records have been turned over to the Attorney General of VT and that THEY ARE FREE to open any records they want-and Lieberman says that's not enough. Dean says he wants a judge to be the one to decide because a judge won't be prejudiced, and Joe still says that's not enough. What does he want? To out gays that don't want to be outed?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. i have to give Lieberman credit for his ? to dean on releasing his...

gubernatorial records...Lieberman said, "what kind of an example are you setting as a democrat? When we democrats are saying that Bush* and his administartion are the most secertive gov't in history and you are doing the same thing"

a very valid point ...inho...and i loathe Lieberman, but he is correct on this matter

[liberalhistorian]

29. Yes, that is a good point,

I agree, but where is Lieberman's condemnation of BUSH for being far worse than Dean in that regard? I haven't heard ANYTHING from Lieberman on that subject. Could it be that he only feels comfortable attacking Dems and not the real danger, his buddy Bush?

[spooky3]

38. better point!

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flaminbats]

31. What a nice way to get impeached!

If he releases classified documents to the public..we'll call him a traitor, and if he doesn't release them..he's a crook.

A perfect attack..:crazy:

[spooky3]

37. I'm not sure about this...

do we know that Dean is taking a position identical to Cheney's? In fact, we have evidence that it's different, and the logic of the argument holds only if they are identical or insignificantly different.

For example, Dean revealed at the time of his energy task force, who was advising him. He would not reveal exactly who said what. Cheney refuses to say who was advising him as well as what they said. Is that an important difference?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.