Clark or Dean? Who would do better in debate with Bush?

[TrueAmerican]

Poll question: Clark or Dean? Who would do better in debate with Bush?

[Hep]

1. Who would do better

Who knows? Who cares?

[webkev]

2. I care

do well in debate.. win election
ya see!!,,

[Hep]

6. moot points are still points

I guess. Both Dean and Clark would trounce Bush in a debate. Gore trounced Bush in the debates, didn't much matter.

It's why this is a NON question.

[Bucky]

8. The sad thing about Gore was...

He actually lost the debate to Bush. I recall he even rescued him at one point. Bush really doesn't do badly in debates. He knows his limitations and sticks to his talking points. It's a very cautious, conservative style for someone who can't venture out too far on a rhetorical limb.

Next year, of course, Bush will be in a position to limit the size, length, breadth, scope, and format of the debate. I expect some idiocy like the sham Lieberman-Cheney debate from 00. This format actually might help Dean, making him seem more personable and while bringing Bush down to his size.

[_NorCal_D_]

In my opinion,

the Gore vs. Bush debate was a stalemate. Neither had very much to say, which was unfortunate.

The only instance where Bush may have had the upper hand was when he uttered his snide, pathetic catch phrases like 'fuzzy math'. :puke:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. Agree

as incredible as it seems, Bush was hard for Gore to break open.
Bush really slows the pace down to avoid mistakes.

[MidwestTransplant]

9. It does matter

You guys think Bush will go down so easily because you hate him so much. It's not the case. The rest of America doesn't think he sucks nearly as bad as we do. We need the strongest candidate that can counter them on their number 1 issue....national security and scaring the bejeezus out of Americans in the run up to the election.

[Jack_Dawson]

15. Exactly

The rest of the country loves Bush.

[Jai4WKC08]

42. Gore didn't "trounce" Bush

You forget.

Certainly, Gore made better points, had a better command of the facts, articulated better positions.

But to people who hadn't heard him before, Gore came off as aloof and superior, while Bush seemed like a "regular guy." Some people even felt sorry for Bush, but unfortunately, not in a way that made them realize how incompetent he is.

Bush "won" the debates by the only measure that counts--they got him more votes in the right states.

Sort of like he "won" the election by getting the 5 votes that counted most.

[Jack_Dawson]

3. Are You Kidding?

General Clark would mop the floor with Bush. Everything I've read puts Bush's IQ somewhere around 91. Clark's is at least 60 points higher. Please Santa let this debate happen. It's the only present I want this year.

[Hep]

7. My point exactly.

Clark would mop the floor with Bush, Dean would mop the floor with bush, SHARPTON would mop the floor with Bush. My toenail fungus could mop the floor with Bush.

[webDude]

4. An Irish Setter would do better. Apologies to all the Irish Setters.

nt

[_NorCal_D_]

5. Clark by a mile.

Ah, I can picture it now! B-)

[TexasSissy]

40. Too funny!!! Where did you find that pic of Baby Bush?

[maddezmom]

10. Clark

but I'm biased. :) They would both do just fine.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. It's too hard to say...

Bush is SO Bad that either of them will own him in every single debate.

[Bucky]

11. We are ignoring Bush's strengths. He actually did ok in the debates.

He has to play it very cautiously, but he sticks to his talking points with admirable discipline. He's good at seeming relaxed and many swing voters can identify with him. Probably only Al Sharpton could put him off his stride--for reasons that don't speak well to Mr Bush's character.

But Gore seriously blew the debate with his sanctimonious style. Dean seems to have a spark of that superiority complex, which is troubling. He's contained that pretty well in his debates with the Democrats, but it still comes to the surface with his speeches. I'm not at all sure he can contain that perception once he's actually on-stage with Bush, whom he obviously holds very little regard toward.

Dubya has been winning elections for 10 years based on being underestimated by his much smarter opponents. I'm not saying we should nominate someone dumber than Bush. I don't think we could even find someone with that qualification. But the debate won't be won on smarts alone.

[TrueAmerican]

12. Let's keep this positive post kicked.

:kick:

Who's with me?

[quinnox]

13. Dean is a terrible debater, Clark wins this one by a knockout

I have seen many debates with Dean, and one thing I have learned is he has poor debating skills. He stammers, puts on temper tantrums by making faces, and the camera just doesn't like Dean. Dean is untelegenic.

Clark on the other hand, is a decent debater. Lately he has been more passionate, which is good. At first he was a little subdued and boring, but in the last couple debates has been much more animated.

[robbedvoter]

14. It helps not popping a vein and getting red in the face

W for all his impediments plays well the suave role and can win against *D not on substance but on appearances only. Moderators have been kind to *D in the primaries, helping him keep cool. That would stop in the General's Election.
For Clark- a preview:
"I'll put my 34 years of experience in defending the United States against his 3 years of failed policies any day."
and another:

Maher: All right now, I have to tell you General, when you said
bait-and-switch, you just said the magic word! Ladies and gentleman,
bait-and-switch, and there it is! (the Bush fighter pilot doll drops
down onto the set by parachute) (audience laughter) No heckling! This,
as you may have known, we had it on the show a couple weeks ago. This is
the George Bush doll, this has been put out by a company. Him in his
flight suit, this is President dress-up, when he made his appearance on
the aircraft carrier. I'm wondering what you think of that stunt.
Clark: First of all, I think it's a great flight suit, and a lot of...
(audience applause and laughter) great men and women have worn that suit
with honor, and have risked their lives, have lost their lives, in that
flight suit. And I think when you see that doll, what it will remind us
of is the premature celebration at the end of this war. Because this was
the 1st of May, and the banner read Mission Accomplished. And you know
what's come out of the Washington press this week, the leaked document
from the Joint Staff and Central Command. We did our after-action
review, and you know what we found, fellas? We didn't plan for the whole
mission! We destroyed the Iraq army, we got to Baghdad, but we didn't
have Phase 4! The post conflict operation!

[_NorCal_D_]

18. That

second scenario is a hoot! Too bad I missed it. :(

[HFishbine]

50. *

* President.

[TrueAmerican]

16. kick

:kick:

[AlinPA]

17. Bush can't debate. He uses canned one-liners.

"Debate" is loosely used word when he is involved.

[Bucky]

19. Dude, that's how presidential debates ARE.

It's not like they're gonna do Oxford style, or go by National Forensics League rules. Bush does well in the formats that he & Rove will allow. Points that don't acknowledge that are a waste of time & bandwidth.

[TLM]

29. Yeah I fear that as ususal CLark would have little to debate with

other than to launch into some evasive and drawn-out long-widned personal story that seems to wonder around like an old man off his meds.

Dean has mastered the quick sharp jab, and the effective negation of attacks over years and years of campaigns.

Clark has no expereince in this area.

Even the Clark folks have to admit that Dean is a far superior debater.

[LTR]

53. Here's how the Dems can prepare for the debate against Dubya

His responses will consist solely of these canned phrases, created here:

http://www.duh.org/bullshit.html

Try it out!

[mzmolly]

20. Same one who wins the debates now DEAN.

:hi: No offense, but Clark sucks at debates, he never answers the questions and goes off on strange tangents. He also goes over his time constantly while saying nothing on the topic in question.

In other words, he may be bright, but ........

[poskonig]

21. I'm not sure Clark and Bush would draw enough contrast.

They'd agree on foreign policy, regulation, trade, and would skirmish a little bit about the environment.

[eileen_d]

22. Uh.... no.

If you think Clark agrees with Bush on those issues, you don't know what Clark is about.

[TLM]

31. Exactly.... that's my fear as well.

Clark would be too close too Bush on too many issues, but would try to present himself as better than Bush on those issues.

This is a big difference between DEan and Clark... Bush says that he should be president because he knows how to keep fighting terra to protect america.

CLark would say "Sure Mr. Bush is right and we need to be protected from the evil terraists, but I'm the better man to do that because I've commanded an air war."

Dean would say "Mr. Bush has made us less safe, because you do not win the fight on terraism with bombs, but with strong domestic policy, fair trade policy, and well funded first responders... and by halting the process of funneling our oil money to Saudi Arabia where it is used to fund terrorist groups."

[TrueAmerican]

23. We need to get behind Clark. It is obvious

I am glad DU is behind Clark. He is winning this poll. He won the official DU poll and the unofficial poll. DU knows who can win, we need to get DUs message out to the public.

Dean = 4 more years of BushCo
Clark = 8 years of Democrats back in control.

[Jack_Dawson]

26. Well Put, TrueAmerican

And I'm afraid you're right. I shudder to think of another four years of Bush. Abortion Rollback. Polluted Skies Initiative. Invading Syria, Iran, Sudan.

Clark is a Godsend - spread the word.

[TLM]

33. Sorry but Clark can not win...

The capture of Saddam robs CLark of his biggest advantage.

[Jack_Dawson]

37. You're right, Clark Cannot Win - he would Obliterate

TLM if you're being even a little intellectually honest, you would note that every poll shows dems losing to Chimpy. But also in every poll, Clark polls higher than Dean. I'm sure you've donated money to the campaign so you obviously have a vested interest in seeing Dean become the nominee. So by all means, vote for Dean.

What the rest of us are saying is that since Clark polls higher than Dean on questions that matter (beating chimpy), then it would stand to reason, would it not, that if Dems want to WIN they should nominate Clark.

It's not slamming Dean, it's not flamebaiting, it's thinking logically and strategically, which the repukes know we don't have a history of doing.

[robbedvoter]

46. here's a short version - for you - of Clark on Iraq (sans Saddam)

http://www.clark04.com/ads/

[LTR]

54. Saddam means nothing

if the Iraq War is still going at the same pace as now. And the economy is still doing poorly.

Bush is still regarded somewhat well by many of the undecideds, who we need to come over to our side. These two issues could create a backlash against the current misadministration.

[TLM]

32. DU is not behind Clark...

Clarkies have been flooding into DU from the CLark blog... even Skinner noted this fact.

So stop trying to act like the folks here had changed over to Clark... the fact is CLark folks have come to DU. Hardly the same thing.

[Jai4WKC08]

38. Oh puhh-lease

You think Deanies haven't flocked to DU? I thought you were the guys who "owned" the internet.

I've only been here about a month. Never heard of it before. Sorry. I suppose that makes my opinion worthless. I keep forgetting you have to have the right "Democrat badge" to count with Deanies.

Maybe if you can't organize supporters to participate on a site like DU, you can't organize voters to participate either. Seems like I've heard a similar argument around here somewhere...

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. Welcome to DU, hf_jai!

:hi:

[quinnox]

24. Damn, Clark is stomping Dean

even Deanies can see the truth about this one. (Well, most of them)

[delete_bush]

25. Doing better in the debate

is not the same as scoring a 15 round prize fight. The question at hand is who has the best chance of getting the swing/undecided voter to cast their ballot for our candidate.

Regardless of how we view shrub, the debate format will be structured in a way to minimize his risk. Both sides will have their talking points.

Our candidate has to look and act Presidential, and in this category, well, Clark looks and acts more Presidential than Dean.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. Hands Down

SMACKDOWN!.................Clark!

[TLM]

28. Judging by their showing in debates so far...

Dean would do far far better than Clark.


They'd both stomp Bush, but Clark just is not very good in debates... and he'd get into a bigger better warrior contest with Bush and would not likely be able to respond to the shots at him gettign fired from his command.

Clark clearly does not deal well with people being allowed to question him.

[aquanut]

34. Clark was actually on the debate team at West Point

Clark masters everything he sets his mind to and he knows how to adapt tactics to match scenarios and opponents.

Link to article that mentions Clark on the debate team at West Point

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. I don't think so!

The AWOL wonder wouldn't have the damn GUTS to question Clark on ANYTHING in his military career. This is a guy who was AWOL, remember? KKKRove will want to stay as far away from that as he can.

When has Clark not dealt well with people asking him questions? FAUX NEWS Smackdown, maybe? When?

[robbedvoter]

47. Unless W, moderator "don't get in his face" so he loses it

like he did at RTV debate. They handled him with utmost care afterwards, didn't they? CNN had to edit+editorialize the rerun of RTV - to blunt the effects of that disaster...

[Ficus]

36. different styles

I'd be interested to see both of them do it.

I see Clark showing up Bush intellectually. Clark has a much better way of presenting his argument in a clear, intellectual way.

A Dean/Bush debate would be great too. It'd be no holds barred, and a lot of great one liners.

I hope Bush doesn't chicken out on the debate though. I think that's a real possibility.

[Jai4WKC08]

44. Now I agree...

I think there's a very good chance that Bush would refuse to debate.

I think that would hurt him against either candidate, but more against Clark. OK, so I'm prejudiced.

Still, one of the most obvious differences between the two is their war record (or in Bush's case, lack thereof). Personal courage, people. Gen Clark is all over courage.

[TexasSissy]

41. Anyone who can pronounce "nuclear" ought to do fine in a Bush debate.

(Make sure he can also spell potatos, just in case Dan Quayle shows up.)

[wiley]

43. President Wesley K. Clark

Check out the new ad for Clark at www.clark04.com. Hear what he says about the Iraq war, and the use of force. Clark will smackdown Bush with both intellectual and moral superiority! Have you people even been to his websight?


:kick:

[Jai4WKC08]

45. "Presidential" is the only word for it

Anyone who missed the press conference that Gen Clark called upon his return from the Hague should take the time to watch. Regardless of which candidate you support. See how a PRESIDENT conducts a press conference. We haven't had one to watch in about 3 years.

Part 1
http://www.videos4clark.com/vidclips/CSPAN_12_17_03_seg1.WMV

Part 2
http://www.videos4clark.com/vidclips/CSPAN_12_17_03_seg2.WMV

[OKNancy]

48. The depth of Clark's knowledge is hard to beat

on any subject. Like it or not, this race will be about national security and foreign policy. Clark would make mincemeat of Bush.

[arewethereyet]

51. he can't even remember how he planned to pay for AID program

he's so so at dishing platitudes. Bush will nail him. Bush would, however, napalm Dean. More specifically Dean would napalm Dean because even dubya knows how to light the fuse.

[SahaleArm]

52. Why is this even a question? Clark hands down n/t

[ResistTheCoup]

55. Absolutely Clark.

No doubt.