Let's Stop Excusing Dean's Gaffes. Shows Inexperience. Not Evil to Say So

[Raya]

As something of a Christmas special Dean told the Concord Monitor (Dec. 26) that he would not state his preference on a punishment for bin Laden before the al Qaeda leader was captured and put before a jury.
Statement, of course, followed by campaign correction, expansion and explanation.

Since then pundits have deamed it “weird,” “unbelievably dumb” and “worst political gaffe” of the year.

Yet, here at the DU, Dean’s explanations are cheered.

Why? Could someone tell me since when the Soviet Union was reconstituted as a major power, when the Old Testament book of Job was moved into the New Testament, and when international criminal tribunals started using a Jury of our peers?

As a matter of fact, the International Criminal Court excludes Jury Trials.

Dean’s comments re. Osama was simply a small-state Governor’s parochial musings. They were musings of a novice who should just avoid talking about issues outside his expertise. His various musings and subsequent corrections have showed such carelessness or incompetence that James Carville publicly wondered whether Dean has undergone a “political lobotomy.”

Let’s stop excusing Dean’s verbal gaffes and admit he is not ready for prime time.

[T Roosevelt]

1. Whaa whaa whaa

It would be nice if people would read what was actually said (as Kerry absolutely DID NOT do in the debate today, and Dean called him on it), rather than accepting a pundits take and distortion on what was said.

And let us never forget - Al Gore invented the Internet, discovered Love Canal, and was the subject of Love Story...:puke:

[bearfartinthewoods]

67. could you actually refute those three gore stories?

[Hoppin_Mad]

2. - - yawn - -

[billbuckhead]

6. Osama's so innocent that Clinton was launching cruise missiles at him

:spank:

[Hoppin_Mad]

22. Even SELF confessed killers get trials

[arewethereyet]

3. you are, of course, right but the faithful are deaf and blind to it

its hard to walk away from all that money they sent him. it forces an unhealthy committment. you could recognize it as a fairly traditional con game but I really think Dr Dean sees no problem with his actions to date. and thats the scary part.

[Leilani]

25. Clark is criticized as not having been a career politician

Considering he's been in this thing for only 4 months, he is showing it's not length of time.

I think it comes down to self discipline, being confident, yet not arrogant.

Dean reminds me of Shrub more & more each day. He has a sense of entitlement & arrogance, backed up by a lot less than he thinks.

[bhunt70]

4. I agree.

Seriously, I think its a huge gamble to take so much stock in Dean. Should he get the nomination I'll vote for him no problem, but I do think he has major issues floating around (as documented in many places) that make him extremely vulnerable. Moreso than some of the others (perhaps because they havent had as much spotlight? I dunno).

To think that other lifelong democrats would pick at issues ONLY because they are behind in the polls is ludicrous. Where there is smoke, there is fire, and there's been a lot of smoke around the campaign of HD. Admittedly he has garnered a lot of attention and interest, in some cases by people who werent interested in politics before.

I just think there are too many gaffes, to much discrediting, to many "talking points" (which are valid- it is what many people who vote remember sadly), and bullseyes on Dean. He isn't necessarily endearing or empathetic and many times I feel like he would be the guy in the car behind me beeping his horn like mad because I sat at a changed red light for a split second too long.

When your own party wonders about you then there seriously needs to be some introspection.

[eaprez]

5. Dean's so called Gaffes

I think the Patriot Act and the loss of civil liberties should be a big item in this presidential campaign. That being said...being opposed to military tribunals, stealth prosecutions and assasinations...I understand his point. He may not have articulated it well but the meaning was understood.

[billbuckhead]

7. This one of Dean's many similarities with Bush Jr

Half of what Dean says has to be reinterpreted.

[T Roosevelt]

10. Actually

half of what Dean says needs to be read...until people do that, anything that ANY candidate says can be spun.

[blm]

11. Bush was touted as a "straight talker" too, in 2000.

Orwellian, huh?

[dave29]

53. you mean spun

through a partisan lense to make it into something "outrageous". I assure you he is making a lot more sense than Bush - or a majority of the other candidates.

[Rose Siding]

8. Some of us know the "pundits" are full of crap

Don't you know that every person can be scrutinized in exactly the same way?

[Dookus]

9. I worry that it must be painful for them

to contort their minds so much to create the apologetics we've seen. Just this week I've seen:

- The news source for the quote isn't valid (It was the NY Times)

- The average American doesn't know which testament Job is in (we're not voting for the MVA - Most Average American)

- Re: 10 years of lax security at Yankee Power plant: It's all the fault of Bush's funding cuts (How the Governor of Texas is responsible for funding security at a Vermont power plant went unexplained, despite five attempts to get an answer)

- The quote isn't real because it wasn't in quotation marks (it was a transcript of an interview)

- "I think Bush is a nice guy, too" (regarding a quote from Dean saying the same thing. Now his supporters think Bush is a nice guy)

etc. etc. etc.

[BootinUp]

12. The Problem is Dean's subconscious from MTP this morning

This is from MTP this morning:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3849657/

snip....
MR. RUSSERT: Let me go back here to Washington with our group gathered at the table. The author of the Time magazine article out tomorrow--and here's the cover: "Who Is The Real Dean? The Democratic front-runner is still a mystery to most voters." A look at what they'll see when they fill in the blanks, and that white beard around Governor Dean is fill in the blanks, finish coloring the picture, if you will.

Karen Tumulty, you wrote the piece. Let me show you a quote that the governor gave you in a two-hour interview. "I'm intuitive and I jump steps ahead. Part of what gets me in trouble on the stump is that I shorthand things. I know what I'm thinking, but I don't say every word of it. I was that way as a doctor. I eliminate possibilities unconsciously, before they get to my consciousness." What's that mean?

MS. KAREN TUMULTY: Well, in fact, he said sometimes he knows what he wants to do even before he knows why he wants to do it. This is a man who is supremely confident in his own instincts. And in some ways, this is almost the person that draws the most comparison with is George W. Bush, but as he said, this is also what has gotten him in trouble as well.

[Dems Will Win]

14. The only reason the RW Media is hitting Dean on these non-gaffes is to

try to inoculate BUSH, who said "I know how hard it is to put food on the family." AND "more and more of our imports are coming from overseas" AND who called the Greeks GRECIANS, etc. etc.

Don't you see--it's inoculation politics and most people agreed with what Dean said about OBL and Saddam, that's why he was behind 23 points and then surged to within 5 points of Bush in the latest CNN poll, which had to be "fixed" by releasing the likely voter results rather than the usual Registered Voter survey by Harris which must have shown DEAN BEATING BUSH!

NEED A BUSHECTOMY?? CALL DR. DEAN!!

[BootinUp]

21. Come on

We are not talking about twisted bungled words, its Dean's gut reaction stuff that causes the most concern.

I think Dean's repeated statement about Sadaam is foolish. It will help him with the extreme left but thats all. Over 60% of Americans will disagree with him on that in the GE.

And the conspiracy theory that he didn't believe, that was just stupid to bring up.

[Rose Siding]

29. stupid to bring up that bush is stonewalling the investigation?

that's why he brought it up, you know. I sure don't think that's stupid. I think he should bring it up some more.

and I disagree that pols shouldn't offer the truth to the public, regardless of whether the public is aware of it yet or not. that's how the public becomes aware of it. the alternative is to leave it up to woodruff and russert- bad plan.

[BootinUp]

32. Bringing up

a UFO type conspiracy theory is not the way to take it to Bush. Thats the way to get laughed at. Check out Clark's approach:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3849657/

MR. RUSSERT: General, you also said something else. And this is how the Baton Rouge Advocate captured it: "Clark said the president `didn't do his duty' to protect American from attack on September 11, 2001. `I think the record's going to show he could have done a lot more to have prevented 9/11 than he did.'" What else could George Bush possibly have done, and why didn't anyone else in Congress or in the military suggest things that could have protected us on 9/11?

GEN. CLARK: Well, when this administration came to office, Tim, they were told that the greatest threat to American security was Osama bin Laden. And yet, on 9/11, there was still no government plan, no plan sanctioned by the president of the United States, no plan directed to go after that threat of Osama bin Laden. The ship of state was on autopilot. People in agencies were doing what they had been told to do. But the top leaders in the government hadn't focused the resources of the United States of America to take action against the greatest threat facing America. And that's the job of the president of the United States, especially when it comes to national security. The buck stops on his desk. He's the man, or woman, who's supposed to pull things together and get the focus right. He didn't do it.

[Rose Siding]

38. Theory or not

About a dozen countries gave us intel about a pending attack- all recorded in major media markets, US and Int'l-

http://www.unansweredquestions.org/timeline/main/essaytheytriedtowarnus.html

No one should be laughing.

[BootinUp]

42. But you can't seriously

believe Bush had specific intelligence and let 3000 people get killed.

There's a big difference between that, and not running the intelligence organization effectively.

[Rose Siding]

47. Can't know for sure without an unrestricted investigation.

I'm not real cozy with LIHOP but when considering the stakes, it gives one pause. Could there have been intentional negligence? I doubt the enormity of the attack was known- but there are hundreds of questions that need answers before we know for sure. Questions that have been raised by the bits and pieces we already know.

[dsc]

57. He said it one time

please tell me how that is repeated.

[KittyWampus]

24. The Problem Is Dean's Cancerian Ascendant

You know on some Astrology forums... some Dean supporters won't recognize his real birth time because it gives him a Cancerian Ascendant... and they don't want to admit the Reality that is Dean.

Really funny.

[MiniMoog]

43. kidding, right? (n/t)

[Andromeda]

55. Don't think she's kidding...

:crazy:

[snyttri]

13. Has any presidential candidate ever combined Dean's rate of

gaffe-making with his inability to learn to stop making gaffes?

[Lefta Dissenter]

16. YES,

and he's in the White House, continuing to speak out of his ass to this day.

[Dems Will Win]

17. You mean his gaffe that Saddam's capture doesn't make US any safer?

Polls show people agree with that?

Or his gaffe that OBL should be given a fair trial and then get what he deserves, which Dean thinks will be death?

Or do you think the Orange alerts and 23 dead since Saddam got caught are not real? Or do you think we should just line OBL up against the wall without a trial and shoot him?

You people are too much! Buying into the Repub talking points like Lieberman and Kerry do. They are finished as politicians now in the Democratic Party for their adoption of these Grover Norquist talking points and you should be ashamed. Very ashamed...

[KittyWampus]

28. First Dean Says Osama Deserves Presumption Of Innoncence

and a fair trial (okay, no problem) then he says Osama deserves the Death Penalty whilst not realizing that this means OSama cannot recieve Coporal Punishment if tried in the Hague.

[killbotfactory]

35. Where did Dean say he'd try him in the Hague?

???

[revcarol]

44. Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

If he doesn't try him in the Hague, he is just going along with Bush's kangaroo court tactics, that the whole world abhors.

If he tries him in the Hague, he better bone up, quick. He has NO concept of international law. Ignorance in foreign affairs and international law is NOT what I want in a Presidential candidate.

[killbotfactory]

45. You're right.

Dean said he doesn't want to pre-judge a jury trial, in response to a question about trying Osama in America.

And then he's slammed for being ignorant on international law.

No way to win... at least with some people who are intent on picking apart everything he says and ignoring his meaning.

[stickdog]

15. A "gaffe" is when you say something that the DC establishment thinks

you shouldn't say.

[Dookus]

18. good plan....

dismiss every criticism that way. That way you don't have to actually think about it.

[BootinUp]

23. Works with Deans base

Too bad Deans base will only be 20%-25% of the people voting in the GE.

[madfloridian]

19. He did just fine today in prime time.

:hi:

[Dookus]

26. Prime time?

mid Sunday afternoon on CSPAN?

The debate where the audience laughed at him?

[BootinUp]

27. That was their joy

at the prospect of rising tax rates.

[MiniMoog]

31. "I will balance the budget

in the sixth or seventh year of my administration."

MiniMoog

[Rose Siding]

39. How long was the Clinton administration?

[Hoppin_Mad]

20. Dean's OBL statement was not a gaffe - it was common sense

[dfong63]

30. since when are "pundits" objective and truthful? Dean was right

[revcarol]

33. Osama response showed a fundamental ignorance of international law..

unless he's pimping for Bush's kangaroo court for Osama.

International tribunal for crimes against humanity- no jury trial.

Go back to International Relations 101,Dean.
And this guy wants to be the leader of the free world?

[Sensitivity]

34. What I don't Understand is What was the point of making this comment

How does it help us against Bush?

[evil_orange_cat]

36. I laud Dean's inexperience...

I don't want an establishment politician... a Washingtonian... a cog in the system... becoming president. Tweedledumb or Tweedledumber... no thanks... I want a guy like Dean. An outsider, who isn't a savvy politician...

politicians tell you what you want to hear, guys like Dean speak from their hearts and are real human beings... I don't want another sociopathic politician like Bush as president.

[revcarol]

37. there's a difference between speaking from the heart

and being a loose cannon.

Dean is a loose cannon.

[evil_orange_cat]

48. 8 years as a governor seems pretty stable...

oh I get it... loose cannon is another way of saying "I'm scared my Washingtonian candidate is going to lose" ;)

btw... Teddy Roosevelt was a loose cannon... he did an okay job :D

plus even if Dean is a loose cannon, which I don't buy, I'd rather have a loose cannon than some slimy, lying career politician.

[dave29]

54. that must be why the

other candidates ship's have been sinking ;)

[zulchzulu]

64. It's the World Series 7th Game & you want to put in The Arrogant Rookie

The logic boggles the mind.

[WiseMen]

40. Must Disagree. Dean is "Made For Prime Time," just NOT the Presidency

It is widely rumored that the Bush White House believes Howard Dean to be a "Gift of God."

I am sure Corporate Media see him the same way. Oh, the controversy,
the excitement, the outrageous statements. The MAN vs Bush, The MAN vs the Party. The MAN destined to go over a cliff.

If he didn't exist they would have to create him -- Or maybe they did.

[GalleryGod]

65. And there's the RUB! They DID create him!

Once more with feeling:puke:
By JULY..down to Smirk by 22 points..

1. Who will RUN on the TICKET with HD?:silly:
2. How MANY states will W have "wrapped" by then(July)?:nopity:

Just the FACTS,Ma'am.

[killbotfactory]

41. So, if I lie about a candidates statement, or totally distort it...

I can call it a gaffe?

Neat. I'll remember this in the future.

[dd123]

46. I like Dean's "gaffes".

Someone's gotta tell the truth once in a while.

That is the trouble with politicians today, nobody wants to say anything. Well I've got a candidate that will say what he thinks and will stand his ground and I LOVE IT.

Dean is no namby pamby wimp.

Go Dean!

[killbotfactory]

49. Dean said jury trial in response to a question about trying OBL

In America.

We have jury trials in America, right?

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kerrygoddess]

61. Sounds like a threat to me

No one with a mind of their own needs to shut anything and get behind anyone they are not interested in backing!!!

Do YOU Get That?

Clark is no died in the wool Democrat, nor is Dean. Neither of them are qualified to be President!

Dean treats his supporters like sheep. Follow the masses, follow the shepherd. There is a problem with that. Millions of people in this country have their own minds, their own thoughts and do not play follow the leader.

Dean denounces others for following the leader yet he cries foul if the democratic party does not want to follow him.

There is something hugely wrong with that picture and I for one will back the candidate of my choice.

John Kerry!

Talk about the issues at http://forum.johnkerry.com - the issues and the voters will decide this election!

[zulchzulu]

63. So voting in elections is not important?

Not ONE single vote has been cast so far and you want people to "shut their hole"?

I'd suggest you leave the Democratic party and maybe join some party that is more agreeable to your Stalinist tendencies.

[Andromeda]

51. Dean did just great in the debate...

and many of the pundits thought so too.

[spooky3]

52. If voters were worried about the types of "gaffes" Dean is making

he wouldn't be leading in the polls (unless you believe those have no invalidity) and Edwards would be leading because he is brilliant at not mis-speaking.

And Reagan and Dubya would never have been (s)elected.

[Sensitivity]

56. Even at the Debate, Folks Laugh With Dean on Verbal Gaffes

[kerrygoddess]

62. Laugh at

They laugh at Dean not with!

[Cheswick2.0]

58. What gaffes?

I haven't heard of any.

[stickdog]

59. Oh, my God! Dean

1) told the truth (Bin Laden deserves a fair trial)

2) said "the Soviet Union" instead of "Russia" during an audience question segment on Hardball

3) had an instance of dyslexia when he said "New Testament" instead of "Old Testament"

4) used the word "jury" in reference to a trial!

You guys aren't helping Dem party unificators with this strategery!

Have some dignitude and compassionativity!

[dave29]

60. and yet he still had the fortissitude

to not enablerate Bush into the War against Hussein, when it seemed popular to do so. It's like he's an idiot savantage.

[Shanty Oilish]

66. No excuses

There's just too much of it. We have a problem. He's going to win the nomination and he's got a few months to learn. When to be himself and when not to.
Bush wasn't ready and look where he is. Dean would be an improvement. I'm not at all worried about him being in the Oval Office. I'm very worried about his ability to get there.
Maybe it's the doctor in him, but it seems like a lot of these gaffes come about because he doesn't listen to the question. Like that New Testament thing, and the brother question.
OTOH, trying to mutate on religion is a major blunder on the part of his advisors.

[WiseMen]

68. But What is the Reason for the Endless verbal Gaffes. Some Just Don't

make sense.

[Mass_Liberal]

69. I just want to say

that if you tell a candidate he is being stupid for standing up for innocence before proven guilt then you do not believe in perhaps the most important pillar of American law. If you do not agree with this idea, you agree with Bush and Ashcroft. Nough' said.