This "Dean makes gaffes" BS is just like "Gore lies" in 2000 and the

[Dems Will Win]

Democratic electorate knows it. The same RW talking points people just made this all up just like they made up the idea that Gore is a liar. And the other candidates and their supporters are FOOLS to buy into this total BS and repeat it.

Why don't you try a real issue like paying for health care or hit Dean on his tax position? Those are real issues. You are only losing the argument for your own candidates when you repeat the RW gaffe talking point.

How many of you Gaffe-Crapola artists think Gore was really a liar--compared to the real liar and gaffer we have in the White House now?

Wise up.

[Dookus]

1. Sorry....

we're trying to pick the best candidate to run against Bush right now. The easy way to not get a reputation for making gaffes is to stop making them.

[Dems Will Win]

3. Dookus, which candidate do you support?

[Dookus]

6. Clark

[Dems Will Win]

14. Well, you're hurting him.

I would stick to some real issues and then you might have a chance of helping Clark.

Like Dean's position on taxes, or his spending $88 billion a year to provide health insurance for most who don't have it now. Or his Iraq war position.

Do you say Gore was a liar, too? Because that was made up by Grover Norquist and the rest of the RW slime machine just like the gaffes BS was.

Was Gore a liar?

[Dookus]

41. I doubt very much

that I have the capacity to hurt Clark's campaign by posting here. If he calls me and asks me to stop, I will.

No, Gore was not a liar.

[bearfartinthewoods]

53. dean supporter strategy number 3...you are hurting your candidate

because you refuse to POOP. Please Offer Only Praise

[bearfartinthewoods]

47. speaking of his tax/budget plan, it got a good laugh last night

as a professional political consultant, what's your take on the audience's spontaneous giggles and guffaws?

[Jim Sagle]

5. Truth in taglines - I love it.

[WillyT]

7. LOL !!! - I Noticed That Too !!!

Kinda makes it hard to be taken seriously, no?

:shrug:

[Dookus]

12. well..

the deeper meaning behind it, which I don't expect you to get, is that we're ALL talking out of our asses here. It's all just opinions. You have one, I have one, everybody has one.

[Dookus]

9. I'm glad you like it...

it's meant to be humorous.

As for the gaffes, I think you do a great disservice to your own cause by automatically rejecting EVERY criticism of your candidate as an unfair attack. Instead of a knee-jerk defense, why not actually consider the subject? Job is NOT in the New Testament, and while you may not think such a "gaffe" is important,tens of millions of Americans DO.

While you may not think the world isn't safer with Saddam in custody, tens of millions of Americans DO.

And a hundred more...

Of course, most of these aren't deal-breakers. But they ARE adding up, and Dean's reputation as being gaffe-prone is NOT a Rovian invention. Will he take advantage of it? Absolutely! As would ANY political consultant. But the gaffes themselves ARE being committed by your candidate, and it would be better for his campaign if he stopped doing it.

[aquart]

20. Dear God, this is about the Bible?

Then may I say I'm THRILLED to know the next President won't be quoting it chapter and verse as if it were more important than the United States constitution? Now, if he'd misquoted THAT, we'd have something to worry about, wouldn't we?

[ant]

36. actually

First off, I'm not a Dean supporter. I like him, but I also like Clark and Kerry. I'm not really into the primaries and I'm not actively supporting anyone.

That being said, I have to say the anti-Dean thing of late does strike me a lot like the anti-Gore thing did.

For instance, you said here:
While you may not think the world isn't safer with Saddam in custody, tens of millions of Americans DO.

Two points:

A) Assuming you're referring to Dean's comments after Saddam's capture, you have the quote wrong. Dean said AMERICA is not safer after Saddam's capture, not "the world." Despite what most Americans might think, America is not the world, and the proper word makes a difference in Dean's point.

B) Speaking of what most Americans might think, most Americans are idiots. Most of them also think Saddam was behind 9/11 - does that mean Dean shouldn't point out that he wasn't? Of course not. The fact is DEAN IS RIGHT on this one. Saddam's capture does little to nothing for U.S. security. It's great for the people of Iraq, and even for the people in the ME in general, but it means very little to U.S. homeland security. The man was never involved with anti-US terrorists - at least not enough to justify making him the focus of our war on terror - and he did not pose a military threat to the U.S.

In short: That was not a "gaffe" - it was a statement reflecting a different view on how the war on terror should be carried out, a view I think most Democrats would agree with. The problem I have with all these attacks on Dean's "gaffes" is that they completely ignore the policy/position context they come from. You simply CAN NOT take a single sentence and hold it up for judgment. I realize we live with a sound bite media and all, but taking shit out of context, distorting just a little, etc., is EXACTLY what they did to Gore, and it's exactly what you've done to Dean with this one statement here.

[Dookus]

40. well campaigning on the theme

that most americans are idiots is something you should try. See how it works out.

I don't disagree with Dean, btw, on his comments about Saddam. My position is that it probably wasn't politic to say it the way he did.

[bearfartinthewoods]

52. dean supporter strategy number 1...attack the messenger

'supporting' dean seems to be pretty dirty work.

[killbotfactory]

8. What... like saying...

"Let India have the programming jobs!"

[hellhathnofury]

19. Or the Shelton lines. I can see Rove lovin those.

[Dems Will Win]

24. The Shelton line, the India quote--all are RW talking points about Clark

We have to stop falling for all of Rove's attempts to split us up!!

Talk about issues. Beat on Bush. If your guy loses or is only a VP nominee--live with it!

This isn't tiddlywinks or some game here. A second Bush term would be a nightmare of 1 to 2 million men being conscripted to conquer Central Asia and Iran for Halliburton. That is the reality here folks. Don't get distracted or hurt your own candidate by repeating the BIG LIE RW talking points ad nauseum.

We all have to pull together in the end to beat Bush and banging on any of the other candidates could cause the Democratic Party to split and lets Rove win by playing you like puppets!

[hellhathnofury]

39. We're just pointing out to the Clark supporters

that gaffes aren't the sole copyright of Dean in this primary. We can hit back if we need too.

I'm ABB.

I suggest you post that message on every bash thread.

[KittyWampus]

63. Clark Has Made TWO Gaffes

1. Some anonymous reporter makes the claim that Clark would have supported the IWR. We NEVER got an anctual statement attributed to Clark with quotation marks around it let alone find out the context.

2. LET the jobs go to India... well, that's the one REAL gaffe that came in passing as Clark then went on to say how he'd create more new jobs and keep them here in America. And the only reason it was a "gaffe" is that supersensitive IT people didn't listen to the ACTUAL SOLUTION he then went on to solve the problem.

Further, Clark has NOT repeated his gaffes unlike Dean who continued the Rebel Flag crap and even let if devour one whole News Cycle rather than apologise for it. Or like when Dean decided he'd repeat the veiled threat about his supporters being Non-Transferrable.

Also, Clark's comment about IT jobs going to India was a tacit acknowledgment of a FACT he had no part in creating... but it was constured as callous... even though the rest of his statement would solve that very problem.

BUT- while this may have been seen as callous by some IT workers...

It didn't make him look weak on Terrorism or National Security or Foreign Policy.
It didn't in any way weaken his capacity to attack Bush.
It didn't give Bush any ammunition to use against him in the General.

The same cannot be said about Dean's recent and numerous gaffes.

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. oh yes, i forgot, anytime anyone offers anything other than

praise for dean they're falling for rove's line. we must all get on board now, quickly..hurry...on the bus...don't bother with the voting.

[Forkboy]

49. that charge gets thrown around by everyone

I've seen Kerry and Clark supporters act the exact same way.Dean supporters are "duped" or "cultists".

I'd take you more seriously if you got bothered by it when done by those other groups as well.

[bearfartinthewoods]

58. i'd take you more seriously if you were bothered by it when your camp

does it. realistically, what influence does any of us have on our opponents behavior. peer pressure, on the other hand does work.

what concerns me most about these time wasting non-responses is that
this is the vaunted army that is going to oust bush. calling bush supporter rovian, or attacking them personally or saying you aren't helping bush by being mean to howard is not really filling me with confidence in their abilities.

these three strategies are useless here and will be useless later.
if dean's grass rooters are supposedly one of the pluses of his candidacy, i want to see them actually be assets and not use these lazy, juvenile tactics.

[KittyWampus]

62. Most Clark Supporters Wish Clark Hadn't Said That Line

So I'd say we're willing to be honest about the one of only TWO gaffes Clark and his campaign have made since entering the race.

Which is remarkable... Clark being a newcomer and his TWO gaffes came at the beginning of his Campaign.

By the way, we also didn't start trying to justify a Flag Burning Amendment when Clark said he favored it.

We said we disagreed but it was a wedge issue which he'd never have to vote on, so we could easily live with it.

Contrast this with Dean suppoters here on DU who started trying to justify Affirmative Action based on Class not Race.

Or the ones who try and say that Dean's support of a Law to "Protect the Flag" was actually some sort of ingenious ploy.

[TLM]

66. Mary Help!

Let those jobs go to india... I support the SOA... I would have voted for the IWR, wait no I wouldn't, oh yeah wait yeah I would have.

Anybody could take anything any of the candidates have said and start attacking it as gaffs by spinning one line out of context.

Like Kerry's comment about Saddam having nukes... or Clark's comments about sending jobs to India.

Hell in the debates, Gephardt made a "all these people up here voted for X" comment, when half the folks up there didn't. Had Dean said that folks would be having a fit over his gaffs or dishonest accusations etc.

Dean gets more heat because he's winning, not because he is any worse on gaffs or misstatements than anybody else.

[killbotfactory]

2. Yep.

They find a quote that can be spun out of control, and then proceed to do so, totally distorting the intent and meaning, and then call it a "gaffe". Then that gets the "echo-chamber" effect.

[Bombtrack]

4. then why did he make big news in the beginning

for his "I'd just like to apologize in advance" "joke" that might have been funny to his supporters but was certainly not for those who support the people he lied about.

I guess it wasn't a joke because he stopped apologizing when people pointed out his lies

[Warpy]

10. you're missing the point!

At this stage of the game, "There's no such thing as bad publicity" is true. You've seen how Dean has surged in popularity against the Chimp in the polls lately, haven't you? That's a function of name recognition more than anything else at this point, since people typically don't pay much attention to who is saying what until the actual campagins get going after the conventions.

All this sniping from the DLC and inside the beltway Democrats is NOT hurting him; neither is the mud being slung by the right wing smear machine. Those poor idiots are all just getting his name out there, self-defeating behaviour at its finest.

I'm beginning to appreciate Dean even more because of the enemies he's attracted. A more worthy bunch of party hacks, liars, slanderers and brigands couldn't be bought anywhere.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. Big difference. Gore isn't a liar. n/t

[Dems Will Win]

18. So Gore is a Liar was just made up by the RW slime machine, right?

Am I right or am I right?

Well, those same bastards are the ones who are pushing the Dean is a gaffer BS. It's repeating the BIG LIE, the Nazi method, and the less astute people here on DU, who are otherwise good people (except for you mysterious trolls), are repeating the RW BIG LIE.

Gore is not a liar and Dean is not a Gaffer. They are just trying to inoculate the real gaffer and liar in the White House and you morans are falling for it. (Pardon my French)

[ThirdWheelLegend]

42. But Dean has lied... twice about the same thing

Even after he was called on it the first time.

N.H. TV ad lie saying all his opponents supported the war.

Then the latest brochures saying "Only Dean opposed the war from the start"

That is not the media, that is Dean's own words.

The media made statements up that Gore never said, and distorted his words.

Dean came right out and lied in this case.


TWL

[bearfartinthewoods]

45. ya know, nobody stuffs those words in dean's mouth

no one forced him to preface the Job gaff with "if you know the bible.

if you are tiring of hearing about them, so am i. however we seem to hold different parties responsible.

[bearfartinthewoods]

60. careful there...some of the stuff he said has been refuted.

[mopinko]

13. absolutely true

how do they spin these "issues" out of whole cloth, when there are so many REAL FUCKING ISSUES that we should be talking about. ya all just STOP IT! PEOPLE ARE FUCKING DYING. not just in iraq, but right here in gwb's amerika. freezing to death, dying of treatable diseases, catching aids in prison for a freakin lil bit o marijuana. HELLO OUT THERE.
and beside, al gore DID invent the internet. ok, not alone, but as much as anybody. let's get real here.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elidor]

16. You've quickly become my favorite poster, DWW

Outside the Lounge, anyway. I like the way you throw down the gauntlet. You remind me of DS1, even. High praise.

Your draft threads are must-reads. Thanks for all the research.

[Dems Will Win]

22. Thank you very much, Hardhead!

I have very exciting news which I will reveal TOMORROW here on DU about the Dean campaign and what is going on with the Perfect Storm that is now underway in Iowa. The Dean campaign is now taking my advice big-time--which means Dems Will Win in '04!

DU Scoop coming up! MONDAY! MONDAY! MONDAY!

[madfloridian]

29. Wow, I had heard something was coming.

:hi:

[bitchkitty]

56. 4:55 a.m. Monday -

I'm impatient! Give me a hint!

I'm glad I have something to look forward to today!

[unblock]

17. but, having a reputation for gaffe-making is a great thing, politically

it's almost as good as bush having a reputation for stupidity.

in a dean-bush matchup, anytime dean says something that doesn't go over well, people can just say, 'oh, that's just dean making another one of his slip-ups, no big deal'.

or, he can deliberately float trial balloons with the same cover.


bush can't do that. in campaign 2000 he could, but now, he's president and doesn't have as many excuses for incompetence. well, at least, not good ones....


think of it all in terms of the whole lowered-expectations thing....

[windansea]

21. Dean gaffes

are ripe fodder for SNL...if they only had someone that could DO Howard

[Dems Will Win]

23. Yeah and I remember those SNL idiots making fun of Gore and the word

Lockbox. Remember the LockBox? The one that Bush picked the lock on and stole $320 billion dollars from in 2 years?

THOSE SNL WRITERS ARE NOW CONTROLLED BY THE RW OWNERS OF NBC AND WILL HAVE TO BE FOUGHT LIKE THE REST OF THE WHOLE SLIME MACHINE.

Windandsea, you are pushing the Dean gaffes RW talking point, too.

So do you think Gore was a liar in the 2000 election? You'll answer me and not run away like the others won't you? We've had some fine debates here--you're no quitter.

IS GORE A LIAR?

[windansea]

25. I'll admit

Gore also had the keys to the gaffe box

[Dems Will Win]

26. Thank you Windandsea for being so honest.

Just to let everyone else know--here's at least one person who is pushing the Dean is a Gaffer line who also believes the Gore is a Liar line.

Any of you other Dean is a Gaffer people who believe like the brave Windandsea that Gore is a liar?

She was brave enough to "admit it". Who else? And please explain, if you would, how Gore was a liar...

[madfloridian]

32. Heh Heh.

:evilgrin:

[windansea]

33. having the keys to the gaffe box

does not mean you are a liar

it just means you said somethin funny!!

[dave29]

34. like this one

"families are where wings take dream"
-George W. Bush

or how about this classic:

""is our children learning?"
-George W. Bush

I could go on

[Dems Will Win]

35. Oh all right then I take it back. Gore is not a liar, says Windandsea

What did Gore say that was a major gaffe to you and that the Right Wing Slime Machine didn't turn into a Gore Lies story?

Asking you to remember all those Gore Lies stories so I know this is tough one.

What was a major Gore gaffe to you that the Right Wing Slime Machine didn't turn into a Gore Lies story? Be sure that Gore really did make a gaffe then, something that is true and not just made up by the Right Wing like the Internet story or the DUers will correct you...

I have to go bed, all! Goodnight Windandsea and Hardhead and all you beautiful anonymous people!

I LOVE YOU MAN!

CALLING DR. DEAN! CALLING DR. DEAN! PLEASE REPORT TO THE OPERATING ROOM FOR THE BUSHECTOMY! STAT!

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. actually it means you blundered.

and considering the job we are seeking to fill, someone who's getting a rep for blundering may not be a wise choice.

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. wow...thank someone for their honesty and them lie about what they said

windandsea said gore was gaff prone just like howard. he or she didn't say gore was a liar.

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. and wasn't that an asset to his campaign? NOT

and wouldn't it be nice to not have to go through another gore campaign with the same results?

maybe we should learn a lesson enough to pick some one who measures twice and cuts once so we take away a pubbie advantage and the ohhh so easy SNL fodder.

[dave29]

27. What is the definition of a gaffe?

By my reckoning - Dean only had one major "gaffe" - the confederate flag comment (which he said many times before other candidates actually took offense) - and actually turned into a substantive debate for the party to consider it's own southern "strategy".

Otherwise he has made a few misstatements which he has corrected. When you are campaigning non-stop you are bound to say a few stupid things. We should give all of our candidates more slack.

Many of the "gaffes" Dean has been accused of are actually the "truth" which so many seem to have a hard time getting their head around - they are so used to remarks having been run through the PR rinse cycle. It's one of the reasons Dean is connecting so well with the electorate - he isn't marketing a product, he's telling it like he sees it.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[killbotfactory]

30. You said it...

"pitiful" is exactly right.

[zulchzulu]

31. Anti-Dean Jihad? Wow. Good one, buddy...

[Forkboy]

50. Yet seemingly true

[stickdog]

38. You can't beat Rove with Rove-lite. (nt)

[robbedvoter]

37. Why? You think Gore lied? I don't think so.

It's the opposite: Gore was joking (ex; union lullaby ) media was saying they were lies. HD says stuff (W know of 9.11 from Saudis, records sealed in anticipation of campaign) then says it was all a joke and the media gives him a pass...Nothing like Gore's treatment. AP burried the OBL innocent story - just withdrew it after HD "clarified" things (guy is outrageous, should die, what W said". Please provide instance where media held up anything potentially damaging to Gore...I can think of a DUI story though, at the end of the campaign....

[bitchkitty]

57. Wait a minute -

if we're talking about lies, here, let's start with one of yours. Dean did not say that Bush knew about 9/11 from the Saudis. He raised it, true, but stated on the same show that he did not believe it. Now that last may have been a fib - I think any fool can see that Bush knew - but an understandable one.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

43. Difference: Dean's gaffes/lies are his actual words...

The media CREATED Gore's lies. He never said "I invented the internet".
The media twisted his statements on support for funding of the internet into this and ran with it.

Dean's lies and gaffes are his and his campaign's actual words. No need to create them.

"All my opponenents ...., before they supported the war."

"Only Dean opposed the war from the start"

"Democratic wing of the democratic party."

The media did not twist or invent those.

:shrug:

TWL

[incapsulated]

51. Exactly

Why is it horrid to criticize a man for his actual statements? Are we supposed to ignore his fuck-ups and hope for the best, or consider it's ramifications when we are going up against Rove and $200 million?

[bearfartinthewoods]

61. so it will be even easier to 'gore' howard than it was with gore

[CWebster]

44. Good point

amazing how many Democrats are willing to embrace it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

59. Why don't you try a real issue like paying for health care

why weren't gores issues the subject of debate? because the media had the option of focusing on the target rich environment of his gaffs, lies and flipflops.

why should we ignore the lesson learned by the gore campaign. why volunteer to go through that hell again. personally, i'm not sure i can take it again. it was THE MOST FRUSTRATING thing that has even happened to me. every week, there was a new non-issue issue sucking up all the attention like a black hole sucks in light.

i don't want another candidate that can't keep his history straight.
i don't want another candidate who speaks without thinking first.

it's obvious that dean can't stop these behaviors and equally obvious that the rw will take advantage of it again, just like they did with gore and there Will be no debate on health care or anything else..AGAIN.

so you "plea" to address issue here is a perfect example of why i don't want dean as the candidate because his mouth will make null any real debate by giving the media and the rw all the material they need to avoid it.

[loyalsister]

64. Required reading......

"Lies and The Lying Liars Who Tell Them"

Al Franken nails it when he talks about how the media created a construct of "Gore Lies" then looked for things to fit into it.
They are doing the same with "Dean's Gaffes." He seems to ride it out more easily than Gore did so far, because he is just speaking basic truths that at least a segment of the population is comfortable with much of the time.
And, keep in mind, they will find a way to do it to any frontrunner candidate we have.

[RetroLounge]

65. Let the bashers have their fun

The "Gaffe-Crapola artists" just make Dean look better and themselves as whining little people.

and Dean's support goes up...

and Dean's contributions go up...

and Dean's poll numbers go up...

and they just keep whining and crying

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: