What Really, Really, Really pisses me off...

[The Doctor.]

Are people on a Democratic board, in the year of a Presidential election, with the lives of thousands of soldiers, Millions of civilians all over the world, TRILLIONS of dollars, the future of our children, our environment, our economy, and The Constitution itself on the line, who declare that The Democratic Candidate is 'one of two evils and I will not vote for him'.

You, thankfully few, somehow think that your high-flung principles and uncompromising demand for the perfect candidate that adheres to your every personal standard of Decency, Integrity, and Political Philosophy, not to mention your penchant for exactly the right fucking version of the Elvis Stamp, rises above the welfare of our nation. Well, they don't.
If you somehow think that you have a 'freedom fighter' solution that will encourage making the nation better, faster, 'stronger than she was before', then by ALL means... Tell us! Just don't be surprised if a few hundred people tell you why that can't work at every level of engagement from visceral to divine enlightenment. That's one of the ways a Democracy is supposed to work after all.

So please, get over yourselves, listen to the people who know the candidate, and understand there's more at stake, at this time of truly historic peril*, than any otherwise unactionable principles you hold so personally. No one is telling you to abandon those principles, but right now the people that are calling for some balm, even one composed of nothing but hope, have the most to lose. If you, who’s apathy has momentarily taken your influence off the table, however great or small that potency might be in these crucial times, do not reengage with what may seem a naïve endeavor, then so many with so much to lose, whether they know it or not right now, will become hollowed of all hope.

That would really, Really, really piss me off.

But what Really pisses me off? Knowing that no matter how pissed I am, it doesn't rise to the level of damage you are willing to abet by 'sitting out' the election.

Thankfully, there are few of you with egos so big or lies so bold.

It'll be nice not to hear the stirs of apathy on a board made of will and passion.**



*If you honestly haven’t figured that out by now, then you’re a boulder anyway.

**I might have said 'will and grace', but it just would have got ugly from there.

[TahitiNut]

1. (sigh)

:popcorn: :smoke: :beer:

[The Doctor.]

6. Mind if I join ya'?

[napi21]

2. I really believe that most of the people you're talking about will

finally concede to vote for Barack in Nov. It's only been 2 weeks since the hard fought primary ended. Nerves and emotions are still very tense. I guess there will be a few diehards, but well over 98% will concede.

I remember how upset I was in 2000 at what the media did to Howard Dean. I voted for Kerry, but I never worked for him or sent him money like I did for Howard. To be honest, I'm STILL pissed at the media for that scam!

[The Doctor.]

8. Only one lil' thing...

the Year.

Other than that, the only other botd I can come up with is some silly uberstrategem.

'Concession' really isn't the point, it's the robbing from the morale and momentum for some people.

[Solon]

3. For those who say they won't vote for him over this, I generally agree with your post...

however, on that note, to those who criticize the guy because he does something to deserve it, and plan to tell him exactly why they are pissed, more power to them. Obama has stated himself that the people are the ones who have to guide him, so let's guide him, to the left, as far as possible, and then we'll be the check on his own stupidity.

[babylonsister]

4. Thanks. We cannot give up, but we can express our

anger when it seems applicable. That's what DU does. It's kind of healthy, very discouraging at times, but necessary to hear all POVs.

I knew Obama would compromise and piss me off; I'm waiting to read more about his statement and decision.

I have less faith in the people in the House who voted for this FISA bill today, but some puzzled me. I wish we could hear what they heard, or what colored their opinions. Maybe they know something we don't.

[crankychatter]

5. online, a lot of self proclaimed "progressives" advocating purity are GOP operatives

some here are well meaning but there are trolls older than me at Common Dreams

The net is infested

they (the corporations) have unlimited resources

look how they just waggled their finger and mobilized the American Defense Establishment for bullshit, eh?

[rug]

7. Saying Obama fucked up does not mean the lives of billions are in danger.

Nor does it mean McCain will win.

Politics is inexact.

Be less histrionic next time.

[The Doctor.]

9. No, but saying you will not vote for him dismisses the very real

shit that we're headed for with a McCain presidency.

If you're planning on voting for the best hope we have of avoiding disaster, then this really isn't about you.

[rug]

11. I didn't say I wasn't voting for him. I said you were histrionic.

The bottom line is the best hope we have of avoiding disaster just encouraged their best hope of inviting disaster.

Here, put this in your sig line. It will save you asking your question again.

[The Doctor.]

13. And how, exactly, did he 'encourage their best hope of inviting disaster'?

Seriously, I'd love for you to explain what I'm missing.

That'd be right helpful.

[rug]

14. I'd say handing Bush the legal cover for domestic spying is right helpful.

Now why don't you explain why criticism of this is the apocalypse?

[The Doctor.]

16. I'd agree if that was the case. And I will certainly criticize where appropriate...

But when and where did I say that 'criticism' was the problem?

Re-read the OP until you're up to speed.

Then we can get back to your ruggery.

:hi:

[JoFerret]

31. Good advice.

.

[The Doctor.]

32. It would be if it had anything to do with the OP.

[JoFerret]

37. You don't see the connection?

.

[The Doctor.]

39. There is no connection. The OP is about people claiming they will not support the Dem

candidate.

Where in the OP did I say that merely criticizing Obama would be a disaster?

I didn't.

If you chose to read like a big boy, you'd see that it pretty clearly says that not voting for him is choosing to turn a blind eye, indeed to abet, the disaster that would be McCain.


Reality can be a choice, I recommend you and rug start embracing it.

[JoFerret]

42. The advice was in this line:

"Be less histrionic next time."

The rest was her/his political opinion that differs a shade from yours but is expressed more calmly and with less vituperation than seems to be your chosen style.

[The Doctor.]

43. How funny you guys are!

Going from mischaracterizing my post as telling people they 'can't criticize' Obama and suggesting I'm calling for 'lockstep support' (yeah, not your words), which is nowhere in the OP, to turning around and telling me how I should behave?

Are you trying to be funny?

I'm so terribly sorry that my angst over childish fools who are willing to allow more damage to the country offends you. I mean, what was I thinking? I forgot to consider that there would be a handful of people that love to wag their fingers and tut tut those of us who have the audacity to express themselves over such a tiny thing as the fate of the entire fucking world.

Let me put it another way; If I have something to say to or about those people who openly announce they will not support the best hope we have of fixing things and avoiding further disasters, then I will say it. Often these things just need to be said, either because it could help someone reconsider their position however unlikely, lets these people know that their inaction truly is crucial, or just gets it out of the system... so to speak.

If you have a problem with that, then instead of jumping in and telling me how to express myself, I invite you to explore two possible alternatives;

1) Resist the urge, and don't bother responding to the thread or post.
2) Take your complaints and self-administer them in enema form.


Thanks!

[AZBlue]

10. Why are people surprised when someone doesn't act and talk 100% the way they do?

Do they think we're all clones?

[The Doctor.]

12. Well, it's the expectation

that one's political candidate must 'act and talk 100% the way they do' that I'm concerned with. You see, it's not expected that we all agree with every stance of the candidate, but once someone decides that they will not support the Democratic candidate because of the few reservations one has, while overlooking the potential for an historic disaster one is supporting by default, then one is a problem.

Fuck one.

[AZBlue]

15. I agree.

We are all faced with two choices this November. Only two. Like them, hate them, ignore them, these are the ONLY two we have. And no amount of bitching is going to change that.

It's time to choose correctly.

[johnlal]

22. You don't have to apologize for him...

There are plenty of people on his payroll to apologize for him. Unless you're one of them.

[barack the house]

17. We have got to get past the FISA thing as change hasn't taken place yet.

[barack the house]

18. In a political vaccuum of not voting in walk monsters like Rummie and Cheney. THINK PEOPLE....

the government only got the way it is by disengagement more disengagement is not not not, the answer. The bill sucks no doubt about it, but only a foward motion on our part can save our own hides.

[The Doctor.]

19. Right, but that's not the point of the OP.

I agree, if he doesn't keep immunity out of it (which they already essentially have if the executive followed the right procedure), then we're going to see a few more people wailing in despair when they should otherwise get some grit and press on.

[JoFerret]

20. Who are you ranting at now?

(Just thinking that all this passion and energy needs a more positive direction.)

[The Doctor.]

23. Again...

read the posts you respond to.

Just a suggestion.

[1Hippiechick]

50. "read the posts you respond to." Oh, God, no...ppl just like to jump in in the middle and rant!

You sound like one of the most intellingent posters I have read on here. Any suggestions for other democratic messageboards? This seemed like such a great board at first....

[The Doctor.]

29. Don't PM responses that belong in the thread.

You don't think the OP is sincere? Make the accusation outright, and then tell us just why I should be ok with people who essentially want McCain to win.

[johnlal]

21. You know what really really really pisses me off?

That our presidential candidate is part of a Democratic Majority that WE built in Congress, and after all our money, work and votes, they are still supporting President Bush. That's what pisses me off.

Oh, you know what also pisses me off? People who are more concerned about Democrats winning elections than what they do in office AFTER they win the election. That really pisses me off.

Who do you think sent our people to war? Who do you think has been sending trillions of dollars to Iraq? Who is responsible to conduct oversight over spending, and over official corruption?

I will hold my nose and vote for the Democrats this year. But what do you really think is going to happen? Look at the aftermath of the 2006 election for some indication about what to expect.

[The Doctor.]

24. Right, and it is because of these concerns you so sincerely express

that we should let Republicans win. :eyes:

Please, think things through; You have to put them in office before you can hold them accountable for not doing what they were put there to do. Just because putting Democrats in office is the imperative does not mean holding them accountable isn't important. While we have the luxury of putting the 'right' people in office who hold 'all the right views', we are thrilled. When we have a choice between a lukewarm Dem and a Republican, there is no option to hold the Dem 'accountable' by not voting for them because then there will be a Republican in office who we know damn well won't give a shit about 'accountability'.

Let me simplify it further; Calling people idiots for refusing to vote for the Democratic candidate (thereby supporting the Republican candidate) in no way, shape or form is even remotely a suggestion that we should not hold them accountable. To suggest that one necessitates the other is just plain silly.

Even more simple; "Are you suggesting that we 'hold them accountable' by putting McCain in the WH?"

Because if you're not, then your post really isn't a response to the OP anyhow.

[johnlal]

25. I see...

You have to reward their bad behavior first, by putting them in a high-paid, high power position where they can't be touched by the common man. Then you punish them by ...

No, sorry you lost me.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

56. Right, so just vote for McCain... that'll really show 'em.

:eyes:

[Orsino]

44. How we let them take office matters.

Getting them elected at all costs, of course, means candidates who'll do anything for anyone to win. The insistence that getting a Dem elected must come before any other consideration is therefore a problem for me.

I don't want candidates trained to roll over for the highest bidder, and I sure as hell can't get excited about campaigning for them, even if they are significantly better than the Republican alternatives. I fear greatly that our next Republican president will be the last president ever.

But I feel a responsibility to nip at the heels of any candidate or office-holder, to keep them as honest as I can for as long as possible. I invite the attacks of anyone decrying whiners, for I intend to be one for as long as I draw breath.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. all I can say is

K&R.

peace~

[cbc5g]

30. K&R ! I'm tired of whiners costing us elections n/t

[AllentownJake]

33. Less and less everyday

They either get the message stay quiet or are forcefully removed from our fine community here.

[SwampG8r]

34. i like fat elvis

hes more of a middle age role model

[Two Americas]

35. why on earth would this be such a big issue for you?

I think that the obsession with this issue reflects a lack of strength, confidence and commitment on the part of those harping on the issue. It strikes me that you yourself are deeply conflicted about this and are trying to convince yourself as much as anything, and feel threatened by the occasional person that vents by saying they are not going to vote for the Democratic nominee. You have a few months to persuade them. Or is persuading people to vote Democratic somehow beneath you?

Meanwhile, I am quite certain that these demands for loyalty and attempts at enforcing conformity are more damaging to the party and the nominee than almost anything else.

You are taking a very weak, and also suppressive and reactionary position on this. If you are truly concerned with winning votes for the nominee, by what stretch of the imagination would this approach be successful? Or are you more interested in being "right" in a self-righteous and narrow way than you are in results?

This divisive and destructive, spreads ill will for no good purpose and makes the party and the nominee look very, very weak. You must not have much confidence in the party, the nominee or your fellow Democrats.

You are not sure about your decision to vote Democratic yourself, are you? You can deny that to me or to yourself, you cannot prevent your uncertainty from leaking out and influencing others. If you were certain, there would be no need for all of this drama, and you could roll your sleeves up and start getting the job done instead of making this all about how you feel and your need to rant and vent - the exact thing you object to from others.

[The Doctor.]

40. So, what... you read some other post somewhere else and decided to respond here?

Where am I 'demanding loyalty'?

Hint; read the post, it doesn't say anything about criticism being bad.

Let's distill this down for you as you've once before proven that comprehension http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5800373&mesg_id=5812709">isn't your strong suit;

The choices this election year are a) Barack Obama (the Democratic candidate), and b) John McCain (The Republican)

Which one do you support?

[Two Americas]

45. oh stop bullying

It is counter-productive. Saying that "the choices this election year are a) Barack Obama (the Democratic candidate), and b) John McCain (The Republican) Which one do you support?" IS a demand for loyalty.

Just because someone resists your attempts at dominating the narrative and enforcing your context for the discussion onto people that does not mean they have a problem with reading comprehension.

Insulting people, lecturing them and being condescending and domineering - I say that this is not the way to win elections. I say that it is that which hurts the cause. You say that "choosing" either McCain or Obama is the only thing to be discussed (whatever that means, and it seems to me that many people are using this "I am for Obama rah rah rah" nonsense as an excuse to act out in very destructive and divisive ways, as though merely saying they support Obama gives them a pass on everything else) and that all who disagree with you are refusing to make that choice or are making the wrong choice. In other words, your way or the highway.

If, as you say, you do not think that "criticism is bad" then why are you so violently resistant to it, and associating it with how people may or may not vote.

[The Doctor.]

46. Then stop nannying.

You're trying to make an issue of something that simply isn't there.

The question isn't a 'demand for loyalty'. That you have such a narrow perspective really makes your whole stance laughable.

1) My OP is only directed at people that come on here and announce that they will 'never vote for Obama'.
2) It does not 'demand loyalty', it states quite simply that if you can't bring yourself to vote for the one best chance we have to avoid disaster and take our nation back, then you're helping McCain. If you can't wrap your head around that, then you deserve to be called many things that call into question your intelligence.

It's really that simple. A 'demand for loyalty' would entail intolerance for criticizm of Obama. I bear no such thing.

You, on the other hand, can't seem to grasp what kind of dire circumstances a McCain Presidency represents. The fact that you can't answer the simple question of whether or not you will vote for the Dem candidate tells me that you're one of three things; 1) Ignorant. 2) Playing stupid games. 3) a Troll.

Are you not aware of why it is so important to put Obama in the WH? If not, then I'll be happy to educate you enough so that you can answer the question.
It's a simple question. Answer it and then we'll know whether the OP even applies to you.

This is the second time you have made it all too plain that you will eschew any kind of nuance while embracing whatever convenient interpretation that lets you ride around on your high horse. I'm beginning to think you're just not that bright. And yes, when you post a response like the one you did, you really shouldn't be suprised that I patronize you.

Let me try and simplify something that's apparently gone over your head; My pointing out that voting for Obama is absolutely crucial does not make it "my way" anymore than telling a patient they will die if they do not quit heroine is "my way". I'm just stating a fact. We're fucked for several more years if McCain gets the WH. That has nothing to do with 'my way'.

Here... I'll simplify it even further;

I tell you not to jump off a bridge because you will likely die. You take offense at my telling you what to do and argue with me about how I'm 'demanding your loyalty' by 'telling you what to do'. The onlookers think you're an idiot. Personally, I'd love to tell you just to go ahead and jump, but there are more important things at stake.

I'm very concerned for the future of this nation, our soldiers, their families, our economy, the environment, and millions of innocent people. That's "My Way", and if you object to it, then you really need to revisit your priorities.

Now, please tell me most of that didn't go over your head this time.

[Two Americas]

53. I don't know

What you are writing is not making any sense to me. Nice job of beating the shit out of me - or whoever you are angry at and using me for a stand in for.

People get angry and lash out - just as you are here - and say they won't vote for Obama. Happens every election cycle and means just about nothing. Let them vent. Insulting them and throwing a temper tantrum won't persuade them, that is for sure.

Look, I lived through the absolutely vital necessity of keeping Nixon, Reagan, Dole, Bush I and Bush II out of the White House and I never found that throwing shit fits about it was very productive. It was the end of the world every time, and the fate of the known universe hung in the balance, and any contrary word being uttered could spell doom and cause our precious nominee to go down to defeat, and yet the slide into right wing tyranny seems to me to have continued relentlessly regardless of the outcomes of any of those elections.

So forgive me if I do not see the election of Obama as the make or break determining factor for saving the universe. I just keep working my ass off to get Democrats elected decade after decade, disappointment after disappointment, betrayal after betrayal and then come here to have someone like you further abuse me for relaxation in my spare time. All part of being a Democrat, I guess. I don't need to fall in love with them or dramatize some doomsday scenario about it. Screaming at people and insulting them was never very effective at getting those results, in my experience.

If you are more interested in being right than in getting results, be my guest. Rant on righteously. It feels so good. Fuck 'em if they don't like it! Who needs 'em!!

[The Doctor.]

54. MUCH better.

My interest is not so much in being 'right'... and 'gettin results' is not the most crucial facet of posting here. That is 'preaching to the choir' after all.

Finally; you've revealed a streak of veracity. I appreciate that.

Now think for a minute; whatever damage you perceive is done by my 'rant'; just how constructive do you believe your nannying is?
Really, that doesn't matter much at all. We have our reasons, and we could parse the crucia all day. (Engagement helps ;D ) But how interesting is your response.


You've just said something a little sad. It's quite alright... We've been there.

You say that; "I lived through the absolutely vital necessity of keeping Nixon, Reagan, Dole, Bush I and Bush II out of the White House and I never found that throwing shit fits about it was very productive. It was the end of the world every time, and the fate of the known universe hung in the balance"

Well, aside from the obvious question of "just how bad were the shit-fits you threw and how could they possibly match mine in scope and vibrance of this day and age?", I'd have to ask you; "Did the world spin a little better when you kept the select assholes on your list out of office?"

(I actually kinda' liked Dole even though I voted for Clinton)

I'm betting the answer is 'yes'.


Yer rackin' up the questions here, and I hope you ain't afeared of 'em.


Questions;

1) "Were you wrong in your judgement of who would be WORSE for the nation over all those years?"

2) "Do you believe that the best current choice is Barack Obama?"

3) "Have you noticed any significant differences between Obama and Democratic candidates of the past 30 years?"


-Serious questions all.


I have to say, you stepped right up there for a minute... that gets my respect right the fuck away. Well done.
Now if you could please follow through and stun me with your earnesty, I'd really appreciate it.

:hi:

[Two Americas]

55. ok very good

I am starting to think it is more your style I have been reacting to then anything. Happens on the Internet. Maybe you aren't lecturing, but I know I am not nannying, either.

Your questions...

1) "Were you wrong in your judgement of who would be WORSE for the nation over all those years?"

There is no way to know that. The presidency is one small part of the elective government, which is a small part of the entire political process.

I think that it was a mistake, in retrospect, to continue to support Dems in the 80's after it became clear they would not fight the right wingers and were abandoning the traditional positions of the party. We are still being victimized by the failed approach the party adopted back then.

I think the politicians realized that we would settle for "better than Republicans" and that they did not need to be or do more than that and that we were too stupid to complain. So they could move farther and farther to the right and into the pockets of the corporations and big money players. That was easier for them and better for their personal careers, but a disaster for the people and the country.

So it is hard to say which is "worse" - the arsonists, or the fire fighters who do not respond to fires; the trigger man or the getaway driver.

2) "Do you believe that the best current choice is Barack Obama?"

Sure, he is the only choice. First place on a list of one.

3) "Have you noticed any significant differences between Obama and Democratic candidates of the past 30 years?"

No.

[MonkeyFunk]

36. Why drive yourself nuts over what one or two people say

on an anonymous board?

How many here have said they won't vote for Obama?

[JoFerret]

38. It's always nice to have a reason for

histrionic rage.

[JohnnyLib2]

52. Good point. I'll start looking.

:crazy:

[Adelante]

41. Excellent rant

:thumbsup:

Too late to rec :kick:

[MattBaggins]

47. Preaching to the choir

you really ought to take this message over to CrapitalHillForums. They are the types you are talking about.

[The Doctor.]

48. Sooo.... preach to the boulders instead?

(Actually, I have a log-in over there. Maybe I'll use it.

[JoFerret]

49. Sounds like a worthy plan.

.

[Truthfulone]

51. We need to rally behind our candidate

I would have voted for Liebermann if it meant keeping the Republican out of the White House. That's how Democratic I am.