So the fuck what, what Hillary would have done? What someone "would have done" is irrelevant.

[Maddy McCall]

Hillary voted AGAINST FISA.

What she "would have done" no one really knows, do they? What's on the vote count is what matters, and she stood with us.

As well as many other respectable Dems.

What Hillary "would have done" doesn't matter. She IS NOT our presidential candidate.

Barack IS our presidential candidate. What he DID is what matters...and he voted for passage of FISA.

Quit trying to deflect criticism of Barack with discussion of what Hillary "would have done."

What Barack did today is a disappointment to everyone who cares about Constitutional issues.

So much for the "Constitutional Professor" protecting our rights...dear god if we haven't had that pounded into our skulls at DU.

People who are disappointed have every right to be disappointed. Saying what Hillary "might have done" doesn't change the fact of what Barack DID DO.

[Captain Hilts]

1. She and Obama are under different pressures completely.

[Yes We Did]

32. Just remember to apply that to Obama's Speech against the war.

I applaud Hillary unconditionally for her vote today. I just wish some on here would have done the same for Obama.

[RedShoes]

48. hear, hear.

[polmaven]

49. I applaud Senator Obama

unconditionally for his votes today. Yes, both of them. If our leaders do not vote the way they think will best serve the country I want nothing to do with them. Both Senator Obama and Senator Clinton did that today.

:toast: I raise my glass to each of them!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Well I'm glad she learned her lesson.

Maybe if she keeps it up, she'll get to be nominee in another eight years.

[TwilightGardener]

3. Hillary is irrelevant--you are right. It's all about Obama. He's the nominee.

[JoFerret]

58. Thanks for your support of good dems. Hurray for Hillary

I know how much you love her and her continued good work.
Lucky New York to have such a great senator.
Thank you.

[Beacool]

69. Hillary will never be irrelevant.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gateley]

5. What she DID do was vote the "right way" --

the right way for our Constitution and she's to be commended for that.

And as someone pointed out, if she's still interested in being VP, she kind of shoots down the "she only voted for that because she's not running for President" crap. If it had been a political vote, she would have aligned with Obama.

She did the right thing. Give her the credit she deserves.

(Obviously not directed to you, Maddy)

[madura]

6. I recall a LOT of talk about Obama and the Iraq war vote - what HE WOULD HAVE DONE if he

was in the senate and could cast.

of course all the Hillarities were certain he would have voted for the Iraq war like Hillary.

you are funny, MAD. in a mad kind of way. kettle/pot everything at cha.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Wow...your point actually works against Obama.

If anything, it proves that he probably WOULD HAVE voted for the IWR, had he been in the Senate, or up for reelection, judging by his actions today.

[thewiseguy]

12. WOW . you just ignored your own OP. LOOOOL

:rofl:

[madura]

14. okey dokey, whatever you say.

:rofl:

can i get me some of whateve ryou have that can PROVE something fromthe past that didn't happen?

o, and PROVES THAT HE PROBABLY...


:rofl:
:rofl:








.........:rofl:..........

[Yes We Did]

33. Yes, and your point in your OP works for Obama.

It's not what he would have done, it's what he did do... Remember the "speech" about Iraq when everyone says that it didn't matter because he didn't have a vote.

Just saying...

By the way, glad to see you back Maddy... You and your frog!

[LostinVA]

28. "Hillarities"???? Why are you refighting the Primaries???

Is this going to happen every time Senator Obama does something some people on DU don't care for?

Let it go. Senator Clinton has been a strong supporter of Senator Obama, giving alot of time and energy to him. She's on HIS side, YOUR side. OUR side.Leave her alone. The Primaries are over.

[madura]

30. some call themselves Hillraisers and think its cute.

why whats the big fuckin' prob?
just another case of Hillary anbd her camp doing shit she doesn't approve of someone else doing.
she can be your 'girl' as long as you support her, but call her that if you don't you're a big fat sexist pig.
she is so strong and independent - but calls on bills whenever his resume is handy for yer or expects obama to pick up the little lady's tab because that's the gentlemanly thing to dol

fuck that noise, I ain't buying it.

[LVjinx]

65. Uh, Hillraisers are what her fundraisers were called. Knowing what you're talking about helps.

[madura]

72. you make my point

if anyone else called her supporters hillraisers there'd be hell to pay

[ronnykmarshall]

79. Because some people can't get over it.

I got accused of "still dreaming for 2012" the other day.

Guess they need a reminder of what bumper sticker I have on the back of my car these days.

[JoFerret]

59. And now the kettle is upside down

And so is the pot.

Hurray for good dems doing the right thing when they can.
(Did anyone ever doubt Hillary's credentials as fairly progressive candidate? The purists who failed to get with the idea of electability now hove to clutch on the purity to get a dem elected to the WH.)

[DarienComp]

7. I think what most people are objecting to

is the fact that he's being compared to Hillary when we really have no evidence that she'd have voted any differently if the roles were reversed. Obviously, Obama deserves criticism for his vote, but I think it's dishonest not to acknowledge that the dynamics of the 08 campaign are playing a big role here.

[sufrommich]

8. She's damned if she does and damned if

she doesn't to a few on DU. There is nothing she does that some won't try to paint as evil.Black and white thinking.

[Politicub]

9. I'm glad Hillary voted no

It was a nice surprise. But I'm not bent out of shape about Obama, because he's running for president, and at the end of the day, defeating McCain is what's important. So I'll hold my criticism until after the election.

You can't unring a bell, so what's the point of moaning and groaning for days on end about FISA?

[beachmom]

11. Hillary is not the nominee. She is Senator from NY. She voted the same way as Schumer.

This isn't rocket science.

[ryanmuegge]

13. Whatever works to get the win in the end, but it looks like bad strategy from the Obama campaign

to be continually "refining" his positions. He could easily be painted as a flip-flopper. As we've seen in the past, that characterization (and it was totally false with Kerry) appears to carry a lot of weight with the public. Who knows? Maybe there's some kind of masterplan at work here, but it doesn't appear that way.

I can't help but wonder if Clinton would have had the political sense not to be seen as "waivering on the issues."

[eleny]

15. I believe that Hillary would have voted the opposite of how Obama said he'd vote, no matter what

She could then say that she was either "with the people's wishes" or "protecting people from terrorism".

All I'm sure of is that I'm voting Dem in November and would have no matter who topped the ticket. Eyes open and no illusions.

The only candidate I felt I could truly trust was Kucinich.

[democrattotheend]

18. Probably true

I think she did this to thumb her nose at Obama a little. But she still cast the right vote, and I am not going to knock her for voting that way. Obama brought this on himself by voting the wrong way. But I have no buyers' remorse, since a) this was never as big of an issue for me as some people here, and b) I don't believe she would have voted against it had she been the nominee.

[scheming daemons]

16. What Hillary would have done is immaterial..... she's meaningless to GD; *PRESIDENTIAL*

This forum is for discussions of the Presidential race.

GD: Presidential.



Hillary is no longer relevant in this forum.

[democrattotheend]

17. I applaud her for her vote

I think she did it for the wrong reasons and would not have voted that way if she had been the nominee, but as you said, what matters is how she did vote, and she voted the right way. She gets props for that. But I don't have buyer's remorse or anything...still 1000% behind Obama.

[LowerManhattanite]

19. Get it all outta yer system kid...

...and then sip a nice tall mint julep.

[NattPang]

20. This post is pitting Hillary Clinton

against
Barack Obama.
The primaries are over.

[sufrommich]

22. What are the anti Hillary threads doing?

This seems to be an answer to the preceding threads bashing her as if she were incapable of doing anything without evil intentions being her #1 reason for existing.

[Maddy McCall]

34. No. It's responding to the people who are trying to say that...

"if Hillary were the nominee, she would have voted FOR FISA."

Which is bullshit.

Those are the people who opened this can of worms. Take your admonishments to them.

[Runcible Spoon]

21. HERE HERE Maddy! (coming from someone who is NOT a huge Hillary fan, just to clear that...)

:headbang:

[Az_lefty]

23. it's also based on assumptions. One can't assume Hillary would have done anything for certain.

[madura]

24. its quite certain she'd test all the winds and end up doing whats best for her. nt

[Maddy McCall]

35. Um...she voted AGAINST FISA.

What she "would have done" is irrelevant. She's on the record AGAINST FISA.

[tishaLA]

25. No doubt. Sen Clinton was on the right side and Sen Obama on the wrong side today

I wish he had not voted the way he did, but it's done now. And the thing that disappoints me is that it strikes me as nakedly political--as surely as Sen Clinton's Iraq vote, although I don't want to re-fight those battles.

[CakeGrrl]

26. Why is Hillary's vote being discussed AT ALL? Nothing good will come of it in GD:P. n/t

[LostinVA]

29. hahaha -- truer words!

[LostinVA]

27. Excellent OP, but it'll do no good

[BeyondGeography]

31. Yeah, you tell 'em...What's so GD:Presidential about Hillary anyway?

[Danger Mouse]

36. The primaries are over.

[Maddy McCall]

37. Indeed. So tell that to the people who are trying to reconcile Obama's vote...

by saying what Hillary would have done, had she been the nominee. I am RESPONDING to those countless threads...so take your net nannying to those people.

In case you haven't noticed, most of the people who are most critical of Obama's vote today are his die-hard supporters.

And--even though mods have told you repeatedly to quit dancing on tombstoned DUer's graves, and you persist--you continue to break that rule.

So please don't lecture me on appropriate DU behavior.

[Danger Mouse]

39. Seabiscuit fucking deserved it.

And you regularly willfully flout the rules anyway, so what does it matter?

[Maddy McCall]

40. A lot of people deserve it.

But the same mod has told you to cease the grave dancing. And you just keep on doing it.

So don't net nanny me.

[Danger Mouse]

42. And who are you to pay attention to what I do with what mod?

Why do you care so much?
Please.

[Maddy McCall]

44. If you're gonna cast stones at my house, make sure that yours isn't glass.

YOU posted in my thread to admonish me. Get over yourself.

[Danger Mouse]

46. I don't need to get over myself anymore than you do.

At least I can see and acknowledge my hypocrisy.

[AllentownJake]

43. That one's gone?

Damn...I miss the grave dancing.

[LowerManhattanite]

60. It was inevitable, there.

Swollen like a pustule from an over-abundance of bitterness.

Popped today. Alas. :(

[Danger Mouse]

61. More like an over-abundance of self-importance and hot air.

:D

[greguganus]

77. Well, there goes my cottage cheese I was eating. n/t

[PM7nj]

45. !!!

:thumbsup:

[mckeown1128]

38. I care about constitutional issues and Obama's

vote today wasn't a disapointment. So don't claim that people don't care about constitutional issues if they don't share your "disapointment" in Obama. Way I've seen it you have yet to not be disapointment. So take your insults (so much for the "constitutional professor") and go.

[AllentownJake]

41. I'm dissapointed in 8 years of GOP rule

Ending that is my focus...not FISA.

[shayes51]

47. The Obama campaign made much of

what he "would have done" on the Iraq War Vote.
Hillary showed us what she "would have done" on FISA by doing something: Voting NO.

[durrrty libby]

50. You are right Maddy and some people hate that. It's that simple

[highplainsdem]

53. Exactly.

[lojasmo]

51. I suspect that Obama knows more about

The constitutionality of FISA than you, or anybody else on this board.


Disappointing, yes. Would Clinton have done the same? Probably.

[LVjinx]

66. We're not discussing hypotheticals, but the facts of what actually happened.

If the only defense of Obama's vote is a hypothetical, that's pretty weak.

[zulchzulu]

52. This should be in the Politics:GD forum

I'm glad Hillary Clinton voted against the current FISA legislation, although she had ducked her vote back in February. How she voted today was great, but in this forum, as relevant as other former presidential candidates who ran for President.

http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12862

Discussing how she voted is as relevant as how Biden or Dodd voted. Last I checked, none of these previous candidates are involved in the Presidential race, for which this forum is supposed to be allocated for.

As for Obama's vote to take away immunity, that was good. I do wish he had voted against the current legislation, but understand the chess game mentality of the Presidential race. We should be wondering why McCain was AWOL on the vote.

[paulk]

54. it's kind of like all those "present" votes

it allows the voter to see whatever they want in a candidate...

[Maddy McCall]

55. Yeah.

I thought about that, too. At least he took a stand today...sad that it was on the wrong side of the issue, though.

[PurityOfEssence]

56. But it's consistent: for many of his supporters, Obama's entire candidacy is based on hypotheticals

...the big one, of course, being the undeniable truth that he would have voted "no" on the IWR, even when he's said point-blank that he doesn't know how he'd have voted given the same information.

If there's one, single reason why he's the nominee, it's because he didn't vote for the IWR.

We're promised what he'll do in the future, and we're assured of what he would have done in the past. The inconvenient "present" is another matter and continually disappoints.

It's a faith-based candidacy if there ever was one: it's based on "trust me" and "believe me".

Just blowing off steam here; I'll keep this in the family.

More than anything else, he REALLY needs to change: he's gotten away with ducking issues like the Sense of the Senate on Iran and he's played the field with others like this and capping credit card interest rates, and he's been conveniently cagy with his stances on things depending on the audience of the moment. The problem is that this is all being kept track of, and if he doesn't stop it, it's going to hurt him. Who are we to believe, him or his record? We're asked to make a huge leap of faith and somehow know that he'll put his serial positioning behind himself if elected. Sure, he's got my vote, but I'm not the problem.

He's been incredibly hot at the dice table of politics for so very long with this VERY old version of politics, and those two things are at dangerous discord now. Repeatedly pulling this when his whole cachet is based on a "new" and honest approach is going to hurt.

Damn good thing his opponent is such a terrible candidate, but even that may not save him.

[Straight Shooter]

57. Damn good thing his opponent is such a terrible candidate but even that may not save him"

That depends upon how many new voters are willing to trust him versus how many new voters are throwing up their hands and saying, "I give up, they're all alike!" If enough people who bought the "hope and change" mantra become disenchanted, that's a problem.

My number one debate with apathetic voters back in 2004, was trying to convince them that there is a difference between the agenda of the Democratic and Republican parties. After experiencing the elation of election 2006 and the big crash to earth afterwards (thanks for nothing, Nancy P.), I am running out of motivation to keep explaining why the parties are different. Sure, the platforms are different, but at this juncture it may well be that the different means will produce the same ends.

[paulk]

62. I'm willing to hold off on the apathy for another election cycle

with the hope that the Democrats can gain enough of a majority (along with the White House) this fall to get something done.

Not that I think we're going to have a progressive agenda, but the Democrats really do need to show that they are a different Party from the Republicans. It's getting damn hard to defend their actions lately, and if they don't come through after the gains we make this fall, I don't see how I can defend them at all afterwards.

[Straight Shooter]

63. My heart and mind are becoming apathetic, but my body is still willing to go through the motions.

I agree with all you say, but I'm not optimistic that anything will get done, even with a majority. Too many power-mongers, too many entrenched in the same-ol' games. The lines of distinction between the two parties are becoming increasingly blurred.

I just watched the clip of Feingold being interviewed by Rachel Maddow on the crooksandliars web site. How discouraging. :(

[LVjinx]

67. When should we expect them to distinguish themselves? They've had lots of chances.

[Captain Hilts]

64. That's a really interesting comment you've made here. nt

[paulk]

73. I think the FISA vote is a good indication of how Obama would

have voted on the IWR.

He would have done what he felt was expedient - he would have voted the same as every other Senate Democrat with Presidential aspirations.

---------------

You make a good point in that he's hurting, not helping himself with his recent actions. Obama is still an unknown for many voters - and politics as usual when you've run as an agent of change is going to brand you a flipflopper at best. There's a reason the Republicans are rolling out the "Obama is just another politician" meme. Because it's looking to be true.

[SwampG8r]

68. yes hillary IS irrelevant

nice to see her folks realizing how irrelevant she is

[Beacool]

70. Hillary is NOT irrelevant.

Dream on.........

[Canuckistanian]

71. Thomas E. Dewey was the greatest president America never had

[indimuse]

74. K&R!!

K&R!! WEll said!
So much for the "Constitutional Professor" protecting our rights...dear god if we haven't had that pounded into our skulls at DU.
thx 4 your post!

[marimour]

75. Why do people even care how she voted? Shes not running for pres or reelection.

[SeaLyons]

76. K&R

:kick:

[Bake]

78. The fact that he has taught Con Law makes the vote even more offensive to me.

He knew better. And if he didn't, I'm damn glad he wasn't my Con Law professor.

Bake

[Occam Bandage]

80. Holy shit, it's 2007, we're talking about IWR, and the roles are reversed!