In all sincerity, explain to me how my thinking on this is wrong.

[Maddy McCall]

Regarding FISA, Barack Obama's vote today means one of two things.

1) Either he agrees with the bill and therefore voted "Aye" on it; or

2) He's just another triangulating politician, the likes of which he claims he isn't.

How can his vote on FISA be anything else?

I find it difficult to believe that his vote means 1) above, because he claims to be a constitutional scholar and should know the damage to the Constitution that FISA causes.

So if it's 2), then maybe some of you will understand why Democrats are disappointed with his vote. He is the Democratic nominee...he has campaigned on "change" and has said that he won't "cower" like other Democrats.

This isn't about "purity," or "concern trolling." There are Democrats (and not just at DU) who were really let down by what happened today--by the vote of the chief of our party.

So which is it...if you're defending his vote today, if it's not 1) or 2), explain how Obama's vote can mean anything else.

[Dr.Phool]

1. He's trying to win back Liebermans love.

[SwampG8r]

2. This isn't about "purity," or "concern trolling."

it is maddy
thats exactly what it is

[QC]

12. Maybe you should go start four or five more irrelevant vanity threads, then.

It's been a while since you posted one about pork grease. Maybe that would be a good topic.

[SwampG8r]

15. what is so bad about pork grease?

what is it about pork grease that has caused you to be so adamantly anti pork grease?

have you had bad reltionships that were worsened by pork or pork by products?
was a family member killed by a hog?
is it pork grease you dont like or is it just me?
if its just me then i really have given a large number of things to bandy about and it seems limiting for you to focus on my enjoyment of pork grease for baking when i have give such a wealth of other things to try to harsh my buzz with

i think you can indeed do better than pork grease

so go now and be a shining star
ill be content to bask in your reflection

[cliffordu]

27. I had pork grease just tonight.

With eggs.

Applewood smoked bacon (pork grease). MMMMMMMMMMM.

Three eggs, over real easy, in that very pork grease.

With toast.

[SwampG8r]

3. This isn't about "purity," or "concern trolling."

it is maddy
thats exactly what it is

[MercutioATC]

10. So true that it DESERVED to be said twice.

:thumbsup:

[sandnsea]

4. No it isn't about purity or concern trolling

It's about sour grapes.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. The balloon being floated reads that he'll fix it all up right AFTER he's

elected. It's a grand strategy or something.

[JoFerret]

35. That should go down really well

with all concerned.
No win situation except for true believers.

[NYC_SKP]

6. Maddy, if you really want to know, and not just to argue with us here,

you could easily research his positions.

I'm not going to do that for you, but others might.

There have been many posts providing details and links to information on what is more than a one-page, one-item piece of legislation.

My issue is with the unbelievably high standards to which many hold him at this critical time.

I'll join you all in the criticism AFTER November.

[Maddy McCall]

16. Shouldn't votes reflect positions on issues?

Isn't the actual vote where the rubber meets the road?

[NYC_SKP]

19. It's more complicated than that.

Obama explained that he supports parts of FISA, he opposes other parts.

This happens all the time, even absent political pressure while running for top office in the universe.

I believe, as Russ Feingold does, that Obama will do the right thing and that the offensive parts of the bill can be dealt with once we have a friendly administration.

I wish more of you had faith in that happening.

:hi:

Thanks for responding.

[Hoof Hearted]

7. He could have just NOT voted on the damn thing, I want to know why he went out of his way to cast

this yea vote.

[NYC_SKP]

8. Then maybe you should ask him.

How the hell is anyone here supposed to know?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PM7nj]

11. Can't let go, eh? nt

[John Q. Citizen]

13. There is a 3rd possibility. His co-campaign chair, Daschle, is a telecom lobbyist. Maybe

it's a personal favor.

I know for a fact that a lot of people who were very excited about Obama are now feeling disappointed and anything but fired up and ready to go. Some folks are still there, but some aren't.

As you know, I supported Obama though out the primaries. You and I locked horns on more than a few occasions.

But I can't deny that many people are bummed out by this. Those who refuse to acknowledge or understand that disappointment aren't doing Obama any favors.

It's similar to the Clinton supporters who pretended everything was hunky dory as the wheels on her campaign were getting loose.

Denial isn't an option. I wonder what the campaign plans to do about this very real problem?

[Maddy McCall]

14. Jesus...I don't even want to consider that that could be a possibility.

I was a Clinton supporter, until she left the race. On that day, I became an Obama supporter...I didn't expect anyone to beg me to become one...I've always been a Democrat, and I've rarely had the pleasure of my candidate in the primary winning the nomination.

I'm not thrilled about Obama, especially after today, but my vote goes to the Democrat on the ticket.

:hi:

[vaberella]

17. Maybe you should read the FISA or if you get second hand information some of the

educated debates using the language of the FISA. You might get some understanding on it.

A lot of the people here haven't read the updated FISA or what it has, this is not to say it's great, but understanding the langauge of FISA might give someone a clue before they run in a rampage about Constitutional Rights being infringed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3570855

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6464503&mesg_id=6464707

http://fisa.wikispot.org/Telecom_Immunity_Arguments

[cookie monster]

18. Don't ask me

Politics is way too complicated for me to understand.

[Newshues]

20. Bare in mid that Obama's position on FISA changed after

he started getting additional intelligence briefings before the primaries ended but after it was pretty clear that he was going to win the nomination barring some special circumstance that was unforeseeable.

No, I don't have any information that would positively suggest that something in the briefings caused Obama to alter his position. I'm just noting the what significant event occurred that reasonably could have caused him to reconsider.

[vaberella]

You may be right. Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy both said that there is an article

that already gives Bush enough power to basically put the entire United States under martial law. Further more, it's big news apparently and this is coming from Mike Malloy (I think) about a month ago that the Bush Admin is moving into Iran before the elections. If that's the case we'll have a slew of problems on our hands and FISA will be in the midst of all this. Especially if there are any other issues that we don't know about that are being talked about in the White House. Yes, REpubs love FISA but there was a reason so many Dems voted for it as well---and we're not privy to that.

[chknltl]

21. Congrats and a major THANK YOU to 'Hillary' for her vote today.

Knowing months ago what I know today about the way Senator's Clinton and Obama voted regarding FISA would have given me pause but my support for Senator Obama over Senator Clinton would not have changed.

Sorry Maddy, I do not have an answer to your question though. Part of me wants to ask you some tough questions about Senator Clinton but that is just my anger showing through, that battle is over...well for some of us that battle is over.

Your candidate voted well today, mine, the Democratic nominee, imo did not. eom

[Maddy McCall]

22. My candidate is Barack.

He became my candidate on the day that Hillary bowed out.

Thanks for your honest post. :hi:

[chknltl]

30. Right back at ya

Have I ever told you how much I have come to hate that grinning 'toad' of yours? It's true! (I did not used to feel that way.....)

That said, we lost a lot of great DUers over the Clinton/Obama struggle. I have said it elsewhere but not to you: I am sincerely glad we still have Maddy McCall as a member in good standing in this forum.

You always were one of the good ones...Big Bear John is another that comes to mind. You are truly a scrappy fighter and a great one to call an ally! It is good that you are both still here fightin the good fight for the Democratic nominee.

I'd have a go at ya for this OP but truth be told, I gots nothin'.... Some times ya got to know when to hold-em--know when to fold-em.... :patriot:
chknltl

[BigBearJohn]

33. How sweet. Thanks for the mention chknltl !

:hug: :pals:

[LowerManhattanite]

23. Not worth it. Waste of time. Trying to end 8 years of GOP rule in the WH instead.

[TheWraith]

24. Yes, actually it IS about "purity" and "concern trolling."

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with people around here?

[vaberella]

25. Dunno. They keep screaming about Constitutional Rights, I thought I lost those to Patriot Act I

and II.

[TheWraith]

26. The people screaming don't seem to actually know what the bill DOES. nt

[Maddy McCall]

29. I certainly do.

[Maddy McCall]

28. You do realize that the Patriot Act expanded FISA?

The two are inextricably tied.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Those of us who READ the USPA understand that

most folks haven't read any of thse bills

[JohnnyLib2]

32. I'll give a lil old vote for possibility 2 in the OP.

Somewhere along the line, the popular understanding of "triangulation" moved from positive ( shrewd political strategy & gamesmanship) to negative (slippery on hot-button issue; trying to have it both ways).

That term is being carefully avoided, though Obama (my candidate) may make it acceptable again. We'll see.

[Occam Bandage]

34. He agrees with the majority of it, yes. Claims of "damage to the Constitution" are ridiculous.