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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:22 AM Original message |
Poll question: How many percentage points will Obama's FISA vote net him? |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:27 AM Response to Original message |
1. Someone thinks this will gain him 15 points or more? Please explain. |
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L0oniX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:03 AM Response to Reply #1 |
71. Disruptive trolls from the other camp? |
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Shoelace (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-11-08 02:15 AM Response to Reply #71 |
120. YES! Tickling the underbelly of the beast begets strange bedfellows |
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L0oniX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-11-08 10:21 AM Response to Reply #120 |
122. LOL |
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BlueStater (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:30 AM Response to Original message |
2. This will probably hurt him if anything |
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NYC_SKP (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:32 AM Response to Original message |
3. Misleading question, I think. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:40 AM Response to Reply #3 |
8. Sorry, but if you think this will prevent one 527 ad, you're dreaming. |
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Baltoman991 (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:01 AM Response to Reply #8 |
22. Sorry |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:02 AM Response to Reply #22 |
25. McCain and 527's are two different things. |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:57 AM Response to Reply #25 |
43. McCain didn't even vote on this bill. |
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mrreowwr_kittty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:05 PM Response to Reply #25 |
84. How will 527s eat this up? Which 527s, for one thing, and what will they do? |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:55 PM Response to Reply #84 |
95. Flip Flop |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:48 AM Response to Reply #3 |
16. Misleading, simplistic, disingenuous. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:55 AM Response to Reply #16 |
19. 3 out of 10. |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 09:35 AM Response to Reply #19 |
54. Not true. The "centrist" candidate has won 10 out of 10 of the last elections. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 09:59 AM Response to Reply #54 |
58. Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43 were not centrists |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:25 AM Response to Reply #58 |
59. They ran as centrists. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:30 AM Response to Reply #59 |
60. Bush 04 and Reagan 84 ran as a centrists? How the hell do you figure that? |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:50 AM Response to Reply #60 |
66. You've changed your argument. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:15 AM Response to Reply #66 |
73. I did not. Centrist == Weak in American politics. |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:26 PM Response to Reply #73 |
97. Why don't you just define "centrist" as "Whatever I say it is?" |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:45 PM Response to Reply #97 |
98. Once again, reading comprehension is your key to success |
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BlueStater (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:01 AM Response to Reply #16 |
24. Who the hell is he trying to appeal to? |
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Benhurst (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:16 AM Response to Reply #24 |
50. A constitutional scholar who can't persuade the electorate of the |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:37 AM Response to Reply #24 |
61. I'm not defending the bill. It sucks. |
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Bake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:42 AM Response to Reply #16 |
62. That's pretty fucking sad, if you ask me. |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:01 AM Response to Reply #62 |
70. No argument there. |
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Popol Vuh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:46 PM Response to Reply #3 |
92. "Purity freaks"??? |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:33 AM Response to Original message |
4. None. It wasn't meant to. It was meant to inoculate him from the "weak on terrorism" attack. |
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DarthDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:39 AM Response to Reply #4 |
6. Yes |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:42 AM Response to Reply #6 |
11. Cool. Now he gets the "weak on principles" attack instead. |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:01 AM Response to Reply #11 |
23. When was the last time |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:03 AM Response to Reply #23 |
26. What. The. Fuck? |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:06 AM Response to Reply #26 |
29. How are my posts |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:11 AM Response to Reply #29 |
30. No, but common sense and ability to speak in complete sentences does. |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:28 AM Response to Reply #30 |
35. If you remember the Patriot act, than you remember when your rights were taken away. |
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DarthDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:53 PM Response to Reply #11 |
93. It Didn't |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:29 PM Response to Reply #4 |
88. So he gains NOTHING electorally? No votes? No uptick in the polls? |
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slick8790 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:36 AM Response to Original message |
5. You are being dishonest in your framing of this issue. |
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depakid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:39 AM Response to Reply #5 |
7. "shutting down a potential republican line of attack" ??? You're kidding, right? |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:42 AM Response to Reply #7 |
9. And, more importantly, immunized McSame from the same charge. |
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depakid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:51 AM Response to Reply #9 |
17. It was a lose/lose proposition for all concerned |
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Bake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:48 AM Response to Reply #5 |
65. And that fact speaks volumes about the current state of the Democratic Party. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:23 PM Response to Reply #5 |
87. Unless it translates into a positive electoral shift, it was BY DEFINITION politically stupid |
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cookie monster (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:42 AM Response to Original message |
10. very few |
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AtomicKitten (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:42 AM Response to Original message |
12. It was a strategic smooth move, nothing more nothing less. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:45 AM Response to Reply #12 |
14. I predict this will turn out to be a strategic disaster. |
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AtomicKitten (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:53 AM Response to Reply #14 |
18. I disagree. A flip-flopper calling someone else a flip-flopper falls flat. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:57 AM Response to Reply #18 |
20. Wait, you just said exactly what I was saying. |
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Baltoman991 (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:05 AM Response to Reply #20 |
27. How |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:13 AM Response to Reply #27 |
31. Once again, reading comprehension is key to communication |
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Baltoman991 (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:17 AM Response to Reply #31 |
32. My comprehension |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:21 AM Response to Reply #32 |
33. botched: spoiled by poor work; bungled |
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Baltoman991 (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:28 AM Response to Reply #33 |
34. And thats |
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Lord Helmet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:50 PM Response to Reply #33 |
114. yours is a whole lotta hyperbole |
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uponit7771 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:44 AM Response to Original message |
13. His other moves have been a net gain, I don't get this but he's still our man |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:47 AM Response to Reply #13 |
15. This is not about whether he's still "our man" |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:46 AM Response to Reply #15 |
39. If you keep talking as you are |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:57 AM Response to Reply #39 |
42. You may find this hard to believe, but media interest in my internet posts is somewhat low |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:09 AM Response to Reply #42 |
44. We have been screwed for some time now, 7 years to be exact. |
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Bake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:50 AM Response to Reply #15 |
67. Bingo. Nail, meet Hammer. Bang. Whoop there it is. |
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mwooldri (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:59 AM Response to Original message |
21. IMO Obama shouldn't have voted at all. |
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BlueStater (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:05 AM Response to Reply #21 |
28. Why couldn't he of just voted "Nay"?!? |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:34 AM Response to Reply #28 |
36. Does it change anything ? |
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BlueStater (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:38 AM Response to Reply #36 |
37. The people who think this isn't a big deal are the ones not in touch with reality n/t |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:42 AM Response to Reply #37 |
38. Please tell me how that is? |
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BlueStater (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:47 AM Response to Reply #38 |
40. You don't think the butchering of the Constitution is a big deal? n/t |
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NattPang (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:56 AM Response to Reply #40 |
41. And do you truly think that |
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Bake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:53 AM Response to Reply #36 |
68. "The Bill of Rights was sold in 2001" |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:26 AM Response to Original message |
45. I've joined the 'butt' voting bloc. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:30 AM Response to Reply #45 |
47. Understandable. We're getting fucked from all sides these days. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:38 AM Response to Reply #47 |
48. Pass the K-Y |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:29 AM Response to Original message |
46. . |
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Lilith Velkor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:44 AM Response to Reply #46 |
49. Ow |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:19 AM Response to Original message |
51. Impossible to say. I think it helps his 'bipartisan pragmatist' cred, while weakening the |
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AndyTiedye (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:31 AM Response to Reply #51 |
52. How Much Further to the Right Will He Have to Go to Defend Himself Against Every Conceivable Attack |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:43 AM Response to Reply #52 |
53. It's kind of funny to watch everyone act as if the issue most pressing |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 09:54 AM Response to Reply #53 |
56. Believe it or not, some of us actually DO care about the rule of law |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:20 AM Response to Reply #56 |
74. Passage of a law is not at odds with rule of law. Civil immunity is not, either. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:51 AM Response to Reply #74 |
78. Wow. You don't really think that, do you? |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:01 PM Response to Reply #78 |
81. Ah good. The courts should throw this out quickly, then, unless you're suggesting |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:04 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it outright. |
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Bake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:55 AM Response to Reply #53 |
69. Nice try. That's not even the worst part of the bill. |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:20 AM Response to Reply #69 |
75. What is, then? All I'm hearing about is telecom immunity, with the occasional |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:54 AM Response to Reply #75 |
79. You might want to switch off the teevee machine and actually read the bill. |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:00 PM Response to Reply #79 |
80. I'm asking him what he thinks the worst part of the bill is. I've read it. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:02 PM Response to Reply #80 |
82. The phrase "All I'm hearing about" leaves a different impression. |
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terryter1 (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 09:47 AM Response to Original message |
55. I don't think the vote helps him but it probably doesn't hurt him |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 09:55 AM Response to Reply #55 |
57. Good thing he helped gut the 4th Amendment, then |
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Cessna Invesco Palin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:44 AM Response to Original message |
63. What a stupid question. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:41 AM Response to Reply #63 |
76. Coming from you, that means a lot |
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MGKrebs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 10:46 AM Response to Original message |
64. Incorrect assumption, I think. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:33 PM Response to Reply #64 |
90. If the alternatives were worse, then he must have netted something positive out of this |
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MGKrebs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:03 PM Response to Reply #90 |
109. It didn't have to be about votes. Maybe he just thought he was doing the |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:44 PM Response to Reply #109 |
111. A constitutional scholar thinking THIS bill was the "right thing"? |
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MGKrebs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:55 PM Response to Reply #111 |
115. OK, so let's say he voted against it, and convinced enough others to also, |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 04:13 PM Response to Reply #115 |
117. Are you saying you WANT to allow the govt to data-mine, or you want to prevent it? |
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Milo_Bloom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:10 AM Response to Original message |
72. It will lose him points in that some people will stay home |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 11:42 AM Response to Reply #72 |
77. Not only no-shows, but decreased donations and volunteerism |
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mrreowwr_kittty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:10 PM Response to Original message |
85. Hey, you're being lauded on a PUMA site. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:20 PM Response to Reply #85 |
86. Why would I care what those fucking idiots think? |
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TwilightGardener (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:31 PM Response to Original message |
89. Wasn't designed to win him votes. It's just a shield. We may see |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:41 PM Response to Reply #89 |
91. So, in other words, nobody knows |
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TwilightGardener (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:59 PM Response to Reply #91 |
96. Well, we temporarily squooshed one article. It can bounce back. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:47 PM Response to Reply #96 |
99. Really? FISA used to be viewed as a terrible law. Now it's the *good* side of the argument. |
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azmouse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 12:53 PM Response to Original message |
94. Won't make one bit of difference. |
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PassingFair (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:50 PM Response to Reply #94 |
100. Then why would he purposely risk pissing off his base? |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:53 PM Response to Reply #100 |
101. Because we aren't his base. |
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polichick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:58 PM Response to Original message |
102. Younger voters could see him as same ol' same ol' and opt out... |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:47 PM Response to Reply #102 |
113. Correction: young voters ARE seeing him as same ol' same ol' and they ARE opting out |
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muryan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 01:59 PM Response to Original message |
103. I nets him ~5% |
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depakid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:05 PM Response to Reply #103 |
104. That "strategy" lost elections in 2002 and 2004 |
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muryan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:19 PM Response to Reply #104 |
105. 9/11 lost us 2002 |
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depakid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:29 PM Response to Reply #105 |
108. No, the Dems chose to vote (over and over) with Republicans on issues like this to defray criticism |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 04:00 PM Response to Reply #108 |
116. But, but, what would george know? |
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muryan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 04:38 PM Response to Reply #116 |
118. If you think independents |
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depakid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-11-08 01:37 AM Response to Reply #118 |
119. If you think that the social sciences don't explain peoples' behaviors |
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muryan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-11-08 01:02 PM Response to Reply #119 |
123. I never made that assertion |
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DFLforever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:21 PM Response to Original message |
106. Zero. |
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dailykoff (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 02:22 PM Response to Original message |
107. This is going to get very, very sticky when the debates begin. |
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jgraz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:44 PM Response to Reply #107 |
112. Nailed it. |
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last_texas_dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-10-08 03:05 PM Response to Original message |
110. No change or a very small loss |
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dailykoff (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-11-08 02:17 AM Response to Original message |
121. The rationalizations are sounding more and more desperate. |
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