Braun, Sharpton, and Kucinich, Dean's Nader Group

[liberalmike27]

I was a Green, now a Green for Dean. Being a knowledgeable voter I was careful to assure that in my state it wasn't close, before I voted for Nader. Clearly in Florida, I would have voted for Gore, seeing it as neck-and-neck. If I blame anyone in the Nader pack, it would be Florida voters who didn't know how the system worked. Clearly all of the polls said it was going to be very close, which would have told most educated people, that in Florida, we the Greens needed to support Gore.

In Iowa, we have a similar situation developing. Kucinich voters should carefully consider voting for Dean, perhaps even Sharpton and Braun's voters might check the polls, and not waste a vote on a candidate who is in the single digits, and put their faith in Dean. He has substantially the same beliefs as these three, and the race will be so tight that throwing your vote toward a candidate who can win, might just put him over the top of Gephardt, a Washington insider who presided over the biggest loss of Democrats in the House of Representatives, perhaps in the last Century.

[Padraig18]

1. A very thoughtful post.

Thanks. :hi:

[mopinko]

2. a very thoughtful post, true

and i am a dean supporter. BUT, i, personally, would like to see this be a bit of a race. i think people can still afford to vote their conscience. i think the ideas that these other candidates espouse deserve a full hearing, and deserve to have their support measured. if you can't do it in iowa, where can you do it??

[liberalmike27]

12. I agree Mopinko

But still, one has to examine the way the system works. If Dean is not doing well in a State, is out of contention, or in New Hampshire, where he is so far ahead, Kucinich voters should go ahead and put their conscience over the probable result. But if it is close, why vote away the candidate that is a lot like Kucinich.

I run a meet up, and a lot of my group like and respect Kucinich. I also believe it would be a good thing for him to stay in the race, as I like having a true-liberal, who really cares about people, and peace in the world in the race. After all, these debates are the only forum on the mainstream media that they are forced to cover in some way, where we will see a liberal like him get a voice.

But in the final wash, you have to not only vote, but examine the reality of your situation. Dean can, and probably will win, but if a few folks too many vote for Kucinich, then it could throw the race to Washington insider, who's never even brought most of the stuff he campaigns on up in the House, Gephardt.

Since it appears all the majors will have trouble in the polls, I'll cast my vote for Dean, as I think his support from Greens like myself, will put him over the top, and might even get some congressmen elected with him who'll make it more possible to do something good with his time, more than just using the veto pen.

[bearfartinthewoods]

98. the candidate that is a lot like Kucinich.

i agree except that candidate sure as hell isn't dean.

[OhioStateProgressive]

3. NO

this is wrong

if people support Dean they should vote for him

If people support Dennis they should vote for Dennis

anything less than a person voting for who they truly want is not Democracy

[BeyondGeography]

7. Democracy?

Howard and Al Gore want us to observe the 11th Commandment (thou shalt not criticize a fellow Democrat) before the votes are even cast, remember?

[Padraig18]

11. Of course they should, until...

... the candidate they prefer does not get 15% of the caucus' vote; at that point they need to switch, per caucus rules. There's no harm at all in considering who one might support if one's preferred candidate doesn't get 15% of the vote.

[OhioStateProgressive]

13. but thats not what this post called for

this post wants people to abandon their choices by polls before the vote...thats what i took

[Padraig18]

14. No disagreement.

Just thought that perhaps it was worth exploring that option, since the post 'opened the door', so to speak. :hi:

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. No, the poster was talking about Iowa, which is a caucus state

Dennis isn't likely to get 15%, and if he doesn't his supporters should help Dean to make sure someone who voted for the war doesn't win Iowa.

[OhioStateProgressive]

23. Dennis can keep other candidates from getting 15%

and Dennis can have a good showing which can slow down Dean, maybe kill off Gephardt, damage Edwards and Kerry...and Dennis can spoil in New Hampshire, and that will trim the field

he can do what Jerry Brown did to Bill Clinton...Dennis's campaign can go on forever, Kerry and Gephardt will be finished by a strong Kucinich showing

The only way to keep Dean on the Progressive trail is to keep Kucinich on his heels

because Dennis is the true "anti Dean"

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. Dean is Dean, regardless of what Kucinich does

Dean doesn't alter his campaign or positions based on what Kucinich (or any other of his opponents) do or say.

Unless Kucinich gets 15% right off the bat, his supporters will either have to support someone else or not participate. If they don't participate they end up helping someone who voted for the war. Why would they want to do that?

[OhioStateProgressive]

27. as opposed to Dean who will make the war longer?

Dean will adjust his opinions, he's an obvious panderer who makes an effort to pander at every opportunity...if he is the nominee he better damn well pander to the left or many of us are voting Green or otherwise

[Padraig18]

30. Dean panders, while DK has heartfelt changes, right?

The hypocrisy of that charge from some DK folk is amazing! I personally believe that DK *did* change his mind about being pro-chhoice, but I would expect MY candidate to be given the SAME exact benefit of the doubt.

People who live in glass houses, etc. ...

[OhioStateProgressive]

34. i understand what you are saying

i mainly am talking about his latest religious slant, but at any rate, my point is that if Kucinich has a strong showing, Dean will want those supporters, he will have to work for them...I mean that is how it works, right?

[Padraig18]

40. I'll concede your latter point.

At one and the same time, supporters of DK may need to consider what candidate will offer the most realistic chance of furthering part(s) of their own progressive agenda. :hi:

[diamondsoul]

88. Well said, Padraig.

I don't like to come down on Dean about past decisions or positions. If I need to challenge there's enough to challenge on in his current positions, imo. No offense meant, just that there is enough in his current platform I disagree with.

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. Kucinich is being unrealistic about being able to get out in 90 days

It can't be done, even if everyone were in agreement to follow his plan. Furthermore, in light of the attacks, Iraq is not a safe place to be and no one wants to send their troops there. No country is going to do so until the situation is more stable. It's not going to get more stable until we get a new president. Even then, it's going to take at least 90 days of hardcore negotiations before a dent is even put into removing all those hard feelings Bush has caused all over the world.

Dean has essentially the same goal of bringing in the UN and it's peace keeping forces, but he's being realistic that it's not going to happen quickly. :shrug:

[Nadienne]

75. The gist of it is

Kucinich will make it a priority. His strong words and bold plan prove it.

Dean, on the other hand... How long is "realistic"? Doesn't he say, 10 years?

[Nadienne]

33. Do you live in Iowa?

Kucinich supporters aren't likely to throw in the towel and follow the crowd.

Not to mention, the way I hear it, everyone will have the opportunity to regroup. That means Dean supporters who prefer Kucinich will have the opportunity to join Kucinich. It's not likely to be the other way around.

[Nadienne]

32. Isn't likely to get 15%?

Says who? The results aren't in yet. No offense, but you will be surprised.

[Nadienne]

31. I'll go to the caucus

and I intend to persuade Dean supporters (and Kerry supporters and Gephart supporters) to join MY preference group.

[KaraokeKarlton]

Actually, Iowa caucus goers can support both of them

Realistically, Kucinich doesn't stand a chance of getting supporters in Iowa to get the required amount to win, so they will then have to select their second choice. That's when they should support Dean. Gephardt is trying to get the other campaign supporters to do this for him so he can block Dean from winning. Any of the supporters of other candidates who don't want to see someone who voted for the war win should throw their support behind Dean after initially trying to help their candidate.

[Nadienne]

36. Dean supporters will also get a second choice

They'll see that Kucinich gets support. They'll re-evaluate their reasons for supporting Dean over Kucinich.

And that is when they should support Kucinich.

[no name no slogan]

46. "realistically" according to whom?

Have you been to Iowa? Have you campaigned in Iowa? If not, where oh where do you get the idea that Kucinich will not "realistically" get 15%?

There's two weeks until the caucuses, and a very large portion of Iowans are still undecided (around 20%, if you believe the "polls"). Anecdotally, I've heard much more-- as high as 50% in some counties.

I wouldn't count those chickens before they've hatched. We're a long, long way from deciding who has won Iowa.

[democraticgator]

4. vote your heart

I think in the general election people must vote strategically so that we throw the lying chimp out of office. A vote for any third party candidate, especially in a battleground state is a vote for Bush. However, in the primaries, everyone can and should vote for whoever they support.

[AP]

5. Maybe the people in FL did know it was close and the only people who voted

for Nader there were people who wouldn't have voted at all if Nader hadn't been running.

[Cheswick2.0]

67. nonsense

that is a silly idea, just as silly now as it was then.

[BeyondGeography]

6. Nader just called Dean a run-of-the-mill Democrat

as Governor of Vermont on C-Span. He's got his eye on Howard, complimented him on his Internet/Meet-Up tactics, but he's clearly not convinced that he and Dean are ideological soul-mates. I think he sees Dean as a calculating politician. Go figure.

Nader also ripped Dean for saying he would not cut defense spending.

He reiterated his support for Kucinich.

Howard is all things to all people and has a clear history as a moderate. If I had strong left-wing views and supported DK, what leverage would I gain by giving my vote to Dean (who's probably going to move to the center anyway) at this point of the race?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. I would dispute the notion

that Dean is "close" to Kucinich, Moseley-Braun, or Sharpton in ideology. He is close to them in style, but the substance of his platform is centrist.

In any case, if any of the three drops out before the convention, their delegates, if any, will not be lost. I know that Kucinich will support the eventual Democratic nominee, whoever it is, and I'm sure Moseley-Braun and Sharpton (who has been busy registering Dem voters) will, too.

The value in trying to get delegates for the allegedly "minor" candidates no matter what is to have people committed to real, not stylistic, change in American society, giving input to the party platform.

We haven't even had the Iowa caucuses yet, and still, nearly every day, some Dean supporter starts a thread telling us to forget our deepest convictions and jump on the Dean bandwagon with all the cool kids.

The media talk about the most important presidential election since 1932, the one that will determine whether America continues on its slide into rightwing repression and Third World economics, as if they were handicapping a horse race instead of documenting the ideological struggles in this country.

If you look at recent history, the frontrunner does not always remain the frontrunner. Anything can happen between now and the convention.

To tell people that they must swallow their misgivings and support the media-anointed frontrunner is both arrogant and foolish.

[saltpoint]

9. Ralph Nader --

-- is entitled to his opinion. I think the Post-Nader Green Party will be better served by many of its other potential candidates for all levels of political office. Nader is comprehensive and capable, but cold. Peter Camejo was very impressive in the California gubernatorial race, for instance.

If Nader likes Dennis Kucinich, I think he should vote for him. If Nader decides on a non-Green independent presidential run, I think his vote totals this time will be dramatically less than last time.

[xchrom]

10. these are the primaries

and people should vote their will.
this is not the election and there are lessons needed to be learned by the dem establishment by all the candidates outcomes.

[Tinoire]

15. Haha

Was your crystal ball sent by the corporate media, pollsters with their reliable establishment lists, or the Dean campaign? If you turn it upside down, there should be a little stamp.


knowledgeable voter...
polls...
put your faith in...

This ad brought to you by...


Maybe we're not convinced he has substantially the same beliefs as these three. As a Kucinich voter I see a hige difference between Dean and Kucinich- a substantial defense.

Sounds like you found that post on another candidate's board and just switched a few names around. It's offensive coming from either of the self-proclaimed camps.

[Mairead]

16. When Dean switches from status-quo to substantive-change, then let's talk

Til then, no sale

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. Oh Dean will make changes

Ask anyone who lived under his leadership.

And this poster isn't asking everyone to switch to Dean. He's telling them that in Iowa, if Kucinich doesn't get the required 15% to be competitive that they should support Dean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Actually, Dean would not be my first choice

As I've mentioned before, there's just something about him that puts me off.

[Nadienne]

55. After yesterday's debate

It's something I'll seriously consider, but my top priority will be to make Kucinich viable.

[AnAmerican]

82. Thanks Mairead...

You said it better than I could have.

"status-quo to substantive-change"

That sums it up perfectly.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. Um, NO, there are primaries

nice try, but no cigar...

"put their faith in Dean. He has substantially the same beliefs as these three"

No, obviously not, any "knowledgeable voter" would know that.

[blm]

18. If Dean was even close to Kucinich I'd support him, but he's NOT.

Dean is NOTHING like Dennis in any way, shape or form.

Dennis is an HONEST man with HONEST positions who doesn't alter his principles for leverage in an election year.

Dean's LACK of principles and a record that matches his rhetoric will be the downfall of the entire DEm party if he is allowed to represent us in the general election.

[KaraokeKarlton]

22. You know what

I sort of feel sorry for you, blm. Your contempt for Howard Dean takes up so much of your energy. It's sad and ironically, unfounded. The stuff you're saying about him isn't even true. Dean is one of the most principled politicians you'll ever find. His record for the state of Vermont is second to none. Although you may not agree with some of that record...he was elected to represent the voters of Vermont and serve our best interests, needs and desires. He did a wonderful job doing that, and Vermonters don't make it easy. We're a demanding and picky bunch, and overall, Dean kept us happy because we kept re-electing him.

Yes, some of his positions have changed, as they should have. Why? Because the entire country has more issues and different issues than Vermont does. If he didn't alter his policy positions to fit the needs of the country he would not be doing his job as a candidate for president.

In one breath you're complaining about things he did in Vermont (which we Vermonters were telling him to do). And in the next breath you're complaining because he's altered his positions to suit the entire country rather than just Vermont. Frankly, you just need to come to terms with the fact that most of the reason you hate Dean is because you blame him for Kerry's failures in this race. And that's kind of irrational, in my opinion because if "Bush Lite" has hurt Kerry as bad as you believe it has then he just wasn't a strong enough candidate to go up against Bush anyhow. :shrug:

[Padraig18]

28. Too many supporters of all candidates enjoy their role of victim

Rather than focus on their own candidate's responsibility for his/her own problems, it's much easier to play 'victim' and blame that mean ol' Gov. Howard Dean. It's really quite that simple, KK... :shrug:

[blm]

44. Dean IS mean and governed as a compromising centrist.

He mocked the left out of spite regularly, ala Zell Miller, and now he's playing the role of populist agitator for the primary campaign.

WHY should any liberal trust him?

[JVS]

50. Kerry mocked the left at the beginning of this campaign

and that is why his numbers stink. Kerry won't get the nomination and should quit crying in his teacup and get over it.

[blm]

65. OMG, that's WAY worse than Dean scorning liberals for ELEVEN YEARS.

That is some standard you have there.

I guess you believed that Dean was against Bush making the final decision on use of force, too. Sheesh.....

[Gretchen]

62. there are real reasons Dean is not like Dennis

as Dean pointed out on Sunday at the debates- health care!

plus, Kucinich is the only one who has a plan to get us out of Iraq!

Kucinich is the chair of the Progressive caucus.

I voted for Gore in 2004. I think if I were a "green" looking for "the" progressive candidate, I would support Kucinich.

My back-up choices would be Edwards and Gephardt.

not Dean


- mind you I will support Dean enthusiastically when and if he wins the primaries.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. good point!

Dean DID say if you want Universal Single Payer Health Care, vote for Kucinich or Braun. (Gephardt too, who thanked Dean for the endorsement) :)

[Ficus]

19. Will caucus for DK

I understand the post, and the idea that we should put our differences aside and help Dean win Iowa. But I won't. I just don't vote that way. Dean is and has been doing extremely well without my help thus far.

The main reason I support Dennis is his WTO/NAFTA views, and Gephardt is closer to those views than Dean is any day. Don't get me wrong, I like Dean, but I just can't support him yet. Hope you Dean people all understand.

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. What has Gephardt done to fix NAFTA and WTO?

He's been in Washington what seems like forever and hasn't got anything done in this area, or many other areas for that matter. Dean is a doer and if he says he's going to address the problems in NAFTA and the WTO, you can count on him doing just that. I lived under Dean's leadership for a long time, and he's not "all talk". If he tells you he's going to do something, he's going to fight his tail off to get it done. Even the Unions see Gephardt as ineffective. That's why so many of them have endorsed Dean instead.

[Ficus]

38. I thought Dean

supported NAFTA? And Gephardt didn't. right?

[KaraokeKarlton]

68. Dean believes NAFTA left something crucial out

He believes that it didn't address workers rights, human rights, fair pay, the right to organize and enviornmental issues. If those issues were addressed it wouldn't benefit US companies to send their jobs overseas. It would also curb illegal immigration because people don't come to the US if they can get work in their own country that pays their bills and feeds their families. If less illegals live in the US, all those crappy jobs here that Americans won't do because they don't pay for crap will suddently pay more, include benefits and be much more palatable to US citizens.

If you toss out NAFTA and the WTO it hurts just as many workers as currently are being hurt by it not being done quite right. Are you even thinking about how many US jobs rely on exporting goods to other countries and international trade? You can't toss the baby out with the bathwater. Trade has to be sorted out so that it works as it was intended to without hemmorhaging US jobs. Dean has the right idea on how to fix it.

[redqueen]

72. NAFTA cannot be meaningfully reformed

We've been suffering the disastrous results of these lopsided agreements for a decade. There were hundreds of industry representatives at the table to ensure they got a good deal, there were seven labor reps.

If anyone thinks that we can meaningfully 'reform' NAFTA, I'd like to hear their creative logic explaining why it hasn't been reformed so far.

The answer: you can't. The deck is stacked in favor of manufacturers / investors.

All the candidates saying they'll 'reform' NAFTA or the WTO are blowing hot air, and they know it.

[Gore1FL]

81. Not true

it can be reformed. NAFTA has problems, but it also has benefits. To dismiss the benefits (See also the 1990's economic expansion) because of the problems is one reason I can't commit to Kucinich completely.

There are many governemnt programs, many treaties, many laws that have problems, but if we scrapped them all rather than try to fix them we'd:

Have to stop Welfare and unemployment, because afterall, they are abused.

Social Security would have to be ended because the payroll tax is unfair.

The Interstate Highway system is far from perfect so we'll have to rip up the concrete.

Envirnmental laws? We have pollution, so lets just get rid of them.

There is crime everywhere, better get rid of the police.

Is the NAFTA "stacked in favor of manufacturers / investors"? Yep. That is a fair assessment. The clear fix is to unstack the deck and reap the documentable effects of Free Trade. -- Free Trade between the indivdual US states built a huge economy. Free Trade in Europe has already propelled them into a much stronger world economic position.

Free trade is a good thing. It merely needs to protect the workers too.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

86. no, it cannot

unless we get out of WTO/GATT.

Besides, the PURPOSE of NAFTA was wrong on it's face.

[redqueen]

93. Ask yourself:

Why have no candidates countered Kucinich's claim that you cannot meaningfully reform NAFTA under the rules of the WTO?

Why have there been no meaningful changes in the past decade? (Don't forget, conservatives hate these agreements as well.)


Why are we allowing ourselves to be manipulated like this?!?!?!?!?!

[AnAmerican]

83. Ummmm, reality check.

NAFTA cannot be "fixed". Any changes the next President might want to make to the agreement will be made moot by the WTO. Only withdrawing from NAFTA and starting over with bi-lateral agreements can we make sure that our desires are met.

The issues of workers rights, enviromental concerns and such are exactly why we NEED to withdraw completely. Make bi-lateral agreements where we can take advantage of the fact that the US is the world's biggest consumer market.

As it stands right now, the WTO, and the corporations who control it, have us over a barrel. No changes can be made to NAFTA without WTO approval. Approval which will not be forthcoming.

The game is already rigged, trying to beat the system is not going to work, trying to alter NAFTA to address valid concerns is not going to work. We need to withdraw and start over.

This is onew of Dennis' strong points. Same as healthcare.

He will n ot waste our time trying to fix a system that is already broken beyond repair. He will work towards creating systems that actually work.

Substantive change as opposed to status quo. (Apologies to Mairead for stealing that last line.)

Therein lies the true difference between Dr. Dean and Dennis.

One believes in incremental change (which leaves current failed systems in place), the other believes we need to (and can) start over to make our country better.

To me the choice is easy.

[redqueen]

94. "No changes can be made to NAFTA without WTO approval"

YAY!!!!!!!!

Someone else 'gets it'!!!!!!!!

Hope we don't have to see CAFTA enacted before we all wake up and smell what the multinationals are cookin!

[Ficus]

39. Gephardt has more union support

That's why so many of them have endorsed Dean instead.

AFSCME and SEIU. I think Gephardt has like 12 endorsements from unions - if not more.


All that aside, my point is that I won't haven't seen a reason to switch from Dennis to Dean yet. So I won't, until I have no choice but to do that.

[KaraokeKarlton]

69. Dean has more than just the AFSCME and SEIU

He has a bunch more, aside from the two MOST influential.

[Cheswick2.0]

70. DL has a lousy record on civil rights, women and chilrens justice

he is only the liberal darling of the guys who don't give a shit about anything but the WTO and Nafta.

[rucky]

29. IA Greens: Point the gun away from your foot...

Kucinich needs & deserves a good showing in Iowa. The party will never know where the Democrats are coming from, ideologically, unless that happens.

I don't know how much it would count for in the big picture - as far as pulling the party back to the left, but it's better than having the progressive votes mixed in with a (very good) candidate that's appealing to both left & center.

A Gephardt win in Iowa will not hurt Dean at all. Gep doesn't have a chance in any other state but his own.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

35. Don't assume Dean is second choice for progressives

He's somewhere around 4-5 for me.

[MuseRider]

47. Exactly

he is dead last for me and one I will have a very hard time voting for under any circumstances.

[JVS]

51. He ranks below Lieberman?

wow. What did he do?

[MuseRider]

58. As much as I dislike

Lieberman at least I can trust where he stands. He has not changed and I would rather vote for someone I disagree with on many things in the hopes of his being influenced to change those things than for someone I can't even begin to put my finger on what he stands for. Dean is way too inconsistant for me. There are many things I admire about him but, and this is a very personal thing, I feel somehow "had" by him. As a former supporter of his I just can't reconcile my beliefs and feelings with supporting him. Go for it, it is fine that you all feel the way that you do but I do not and it is just in my nature to be distrustful of any politician who can so easily change his stripes.

[blm]

66. Dean is last on my list because he's the MOST dishonest candidate.

The most dishonest candidate for Dems that I have ever seen.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

78. Dean is tied for last with Lieberman on my list.

Althought Lieberman at times can be very rightward leaning.
Dean lies and misrepresents. Otherwise he would be around 4-5 for me.

TWL

[Mairead]

89. Ditto, Muse. We don't need Bush Lite. We especially don't need

duplicitous Bush Lite

[nancyharris]

37. Statement makes no sense

<“I was a Green, now a Green for Dean. Being a knowledgeable voter…”>

Somehow the statement makes no sense. I see very little resemblance between the Green Party’s positions and those of Governor Dean.

[Tinoire]

42. Ah the transparency

and the catty little "Dean's Nader Group" in the thread title.

Keep talking Clark and Dean supporters. Just keep talking!!!

[Mairead]

90. Likewise not, Nancy. I can't imagine what they can be smoking

Dean is as far from being Green as anyone I can imagine.

[funky_bug]

41. Informed Voter

Great post. I hope many heed your warning. As a strong Clark supporter, it's nice to hear that the supporters of other candidates still have the best interests of their country at heart. Reading some threads here makes one wonder.

[MadHound]

43. Give me a break!

This is the primaries! People can and should vote for the candidate whom they most feel represents their beliefs and values. And quite frankly you are wrong when you think that Dean and Kucinich are even close to being compatible in their beliefs. Hell, up until eight months ago Dean was a DLC Dem through and through, and though the DLC came out against him(still don't understand that, but I have my suspisions) Dean is still a moderate Dem at best.

No, quite frankly it sounds like you are trying to stifle democracy here with this little piece. I'm sorry, I don't buy it, and hopefully nobody else will either.

[no name no slogan]

45. But if the 300,000 Dems in FL who voted for Shrub had voted for Gore...

then MAYBE Gore would be president?

Folk seem to forget that there were a substantial number of registered Dems in FL who voted for the Shrub. Probably enough to have turned the election, too. Yet they still insist on blaming Nader for what "he did" to FL.

BTW, I'm not quite clear on what beliefs of Dean's are "substantially the same" as Kucinich's. Would Dean, if elected, work for:

* ending NAFTA and our membership in the WTO?
* institute a universal healthcare program that covers 100% of Americans?
* cut 15% of our bloated Pentagon budget, and use the money to fund a free public pre-K--college education for EVERYONE?
* withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq within 90 days of the U.N.'s approval?
* create a cabinet-level Department of Peace and use peace as a basis for our international relations?
* use his power to break up monopolies in media and agribusiness?

Based on his record as well as his campaign rhetoric, I'd have to say "No".

And that is why I will continute to support Dennis Kucinich (instead of Howard Dean) in the caucuses.

[maha]

49. Re IA caucus, the question is

Your choices are going to be Dean or Gephardt, according to all the polls. They are the only ones likely to get at least 15 percent of the Iowa Caucus vote.

[Nadienne]

54. F*!@% the polls

Kerry is also going to have supporters.
Edwards will also have supporters.
Kucinich will also have supporters.

Are the people polled actually going to go out and caucus? That's the real question. Who has the most dedicated supporters?

[maha]

56. Of course, we might be surprised.

... or, we might not.

[Nadienne]

59. Here's something to speculate on:

If one of the underdogs gets a strong showing in Iowa, will it inspire (as I'm hoping for) "Gee, I like that candidate, but was afraid noone else did. I'll cast my vote for him/her"? Or will it inspire the opposite? "Can't let my candidate lose votes. Our victory needs to be incontestable"?

[maha]

71. A Caucus is not a primary

I encourage you to vote for Dennis Kucinich or whoever your choice is on the first round. But caucuses are not primaries, where you cast a vote and then go home and watch the news to see who won.

Instead, you'll be getting together with other Democrats to choose convention delegates by preference group. I've never been to one, but I'm told that the caucus splits up into preference groups - supporters of each candidate gather in different parts of the room. There is no secret ballot and no straw poll.

Once everyone has grouped up, heads are counted. My understanding is thata presidential preference group must have at least 15% of the precinct's total number of caucus attendees in order to elect county convention delegates.

If your guy doesn't get at least 15 percent of the votes in your predict, he doesn't get any delegates. At that point, you may switch to another candidate, or you can quit and go home.

So the question is, WHEN DK doesn't get 15 percent in your precinct, will you switch or just give up and go home?

Statewide, the only guys who are sure to get at least 15 percent of the vote are Dean and Gephardt. Kerry could get some delegates also.

[Nadienne]

76. IF, not when

You're right about the process.

But, IF Kucinich only has 15% at the caucus (and it will might happen at some of the precincts), we Kucinich people are not going to just give up and call it a night. We will have the opportunity to persuade supporters of other candidates to join our preference group.

I can't say it for other precincts, but I am ready. My precinct is ready for Kucinich. And I predict this very same thing will happen at many other precincts in Iowa.

Let the nation be surprised.

[iowapeacechief]

61. Iowa 15 percent?

You don't understand the Iowa process if you think 15 percent is a statewide "vote" somehow. Viability happens precinct by precinct. Any of the candidates can win a particular precinct or fail to be viable depending on whose supporters show up and how they choose to commit or shift.

As an Iowan who has taken part in every caucus, I assure you most participants don't choose based on polls. From my experience, most aren't particularly influenced by strategies or instructions from campaigns, either.

The caucus is less a vote (win/lose) than a fast, usually friendly, multi-party negotiation (win/win). Unlike a one-shot secret ballot, the caucus process encourages voting one's hopes, at least the first time. If things don't go your way in the first "alignment", you get a chance to "realign" with a viable group (one gaining the 15 percent minimum). The process requires public disclosure (Wow--these are my neighbors, and this is what they think?!) and then grants permission for second chances. This encourages "a-ha" moments and motivated bargaining.

As a Kucinich supporter, I agree with the others who say it's not at all clear that we should move to Dean (and, yes, it makes more sense for Dean backers to move our way, especially if their defection doesn't cost their Dean group). It's also an option to form an Undecided group, thus preserving prerogatives for future conventions as well as denying caucus support to other candidates and sending a "none of the above" message.

As Bill Clinton observed in Iowa last August, we "fall in love" with a candidate for the caucus and "fall in line" with the nominee for the general election.

Dan Clark
Muscatine, Iowa

[maha]

73. Correlations

> As an Iowan who has taken part in every caucus, I assure you most participants don't choose based on polls.

Of course they don't. However, the polls give us a hint how people plan to coose, and the only two candidates who are polling in more than double digits are Dean and Gephardt.

This is not to say that other candidates can't break through the 15 percent barrier in some precincts, but it makes no sense to assume that the polls mean absolutely nothing.

[Nadienne]

52. Funny, isn't it?

A lot of people seem to be in a hurry to get us all to decide, as though a lack of united opposition of Bush was the only reason Bush got "elected".

On the other hand, Kucinich is addressing a REAL reason, fixing one of the REAL problems - and his solution protects our rights to decided for ourselves, rather than herding voters and threatening them with the posibility of Bush's "re"election.

[cyclezealot]

48. Not sure I agree.

First of all..The Democratic selection process is proportional. Kucinich,my candidate, gets 15% of the vote he gets approx. the same percent of delegates. A Dean effort will have to turn to Kuchinch to win and that is a positive outcome for us all.
Second. I just do not trust Dean. He has shown chameleon characteristics. He does not have the chutzpah to go against forces that brought us NAFTA.I just see hot rhetoric, but when it goes to taking on powerful interests, I say he will back down. Example. Health care.
Get your proportional Kucinich delegate and make Dean not take us for granted. I say he will become a centrist of major progressive issues that all Americans want. Just as soon as there is no progressive tug. a Proportional vote allows you to vote your conscience. In fact on Domestic issues, I see little difference between Gephardt and Dean. In fact maybe Gephardt on those issues is more trustworthy.

[corporatewhore]

53. I'd rather sellout for kerry

dean is just a same old business as usual democrat Dean has snuggled up to big coporations in vermont and loved nafta. kerry is more friendly to the environment and less friendly to the nra.Gephardt has a prolabor record that sets him far ahead from dean.Sure dean has a lotta hot air but when he comes down to it hes just the same old same old politician who is oppertunistic and smears his way to the top.Thats not to say that kerry and geppy arent corporate whores but that dean aint the lesser of all the other "evil" democrats So no thank you i am still voting for kucinich

[windansea]

57. got a degree in cat herding??

http://www.net4tv.com/net4tv/games/cats/index2.htm

[ThirdWheelLegend]

60. How to make this short and sweet?

Hell NO!


TWL

[Desertrose]

74. check this out , then try to tell me I waste a vote for DK

http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1022468

click on the poll...but check out where DK was on Sun before the debate and check him out today.

My contention is you waste a vote for Kucinich if you settle for ________(insert candidate name here).

Seriously....think about THAT!

Peace
DR

Dennis can win if people hear his message and simply vote for him.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

77. Why waste a vote on Dean when you can vote Kucinich!

I love it!

Really why not vote for your best interests! Don't waste your vote!

VOTE KUCINICH!

TWL

[DemBones DemBones]

79. No way, Jose! Everyone should vote his/her HEART in the primary.

We don't OWE Howard Dean the nomination, he needs to WIN it on his own. If Gephardt beats him in Iowa, good for Gephardt. Gephardt has a good liberal voting record while Dean is a Rockefeller Republican (fiscally conservative, socially liberal) who switched to the Democratic Party after Goldwater's loss. This "Washington insider" meme that Dean is using is unfair to people who have spent years in Washington working with other Dems and Republicans, doing their best to pass good bills and kill the bad ones. They've learned how to play well with others, which is something Dean, having been a "boss" most of his life, as a physician and as a governor, has evidently not learned how to do. If one of he "Washington insiders" is elected, he will have the advantage of knowing all the players and having played the game from their side.

Every governor elected president (Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush II) has had some problems adapting to Washington politics. Republicans tend to be most successful in adapting because the Republicans in Congress tend to support a GOP chief executive on most issues. Dems are a bit more independent and Repubs resist cooperating wit a Dem president. Your candidate, Dean, has talked about Congress as a group of "cockroaches" he'd scatter with a big light -- I'm sure there's more than a bit of ill will toward him for that statement.

There is an ENORMOUS difference between Dennis J. Kucinich's platform and Dean's ideas. You claim that Dean has "substantially the same beliefs as these three" (Kucinich, Braun, Sharpton) but that's simply false. Since you particularly suggest that Kucinich voters should vote for Dean in the primary, perhaps you need to go to

http://www.kucinich.us

and read through all of his positions on issues. We Kucinich supporters are very aware of our man's plans for change and his positions on issues -- we're not single issue voters or uninformed by any means.

I'll note a major difference between Kucinich and Dean: Kucinich favors getting out troops out of Iraq as soon as possible (UN troops being brought in to take their place) whilte Dean wants our troops to continue the occupation, which is as much guerilla war as occupation.

Now, if you read up on Dennis and realize that his positions on the issues are much bolder and more sensiblle than Howard's, we'll be glad to have you join out campaign! Lots of Greens already have. :hippie:

THE DARK HORSE COMETH . . . DENNIS KUCINICH 2004

[Iverson]

80. so you don't believe that Gore won FL?

That's incredible, and it certainly weakens the "lesser of two evils" argument that you've just repackaged.

I also have difficulty being told that the leftmost acceptable candidate must move ever rightward before a single primary vote is ever cast.

[LWolf]

84. No, thank you.

I don't believe Dr. Dean has the "same beliefs" as these three. I believe that my vote is going exactly where it should; for the man who most closely represents me on the issues; the man I feel would be the best president.

If I were going to throw all my hard work and campaign $$ out the window along with hope and vote for someone else, it wouldn't be Dean. There are others I like better. But I'm not going to.

[Polemonium]

85. I too am a green who supports Dean

However, voting strategically is not manditory. Further, if you want to bring those supporters on board with Dean you should talk about the hope that this grass roots campaign has inspired. Dean's platforms have become more progressive because he has listened to us screaming in his ear. A candidate that is supported by a broad base that is being listened to is a big step toward what most progressives eventually want to see. Spreading fear should be left to Rove et al. because let's face it anyone running for the nomination is a huge step in the right direction compared to the snot nosed kid occuppying the White House now.

[AnAmerican]

87. Spreading fear should be left to Rove et al......

I agree. What I find interesting is this snip from a recent article.....

"If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?" he said during a meeting with reporters. "I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician."


http://www.charleston.net/stories/122903/wor_29dean.shtml

Sounds like fear mongering to me...not voting for me leads tro 4 more years of Bushco.

Not necessarily taking the high road, is he?

[Polemonium]

100. There is evidence that all of the campaigns have at times

missed the high road. Dean has since repeatedly said he would urge all his supporters to help the nominee whoever it turns out to be. There will be a likely time lag before supporters get on board with a new candidate. Imagine Lieberman wins it, how long before you can put aside all those long hours working for your chosen candidate and you get on board with the winner. Honestly most of us are going to take some time to get over a loss and figure out how to support the new guy.

[nancyharris]

92. You can label yourself any way you want

<”I too am a green who supports Dean”>

You can label yourself any way you want and you can certainly support whomever you wish. However, the Green Party’s position on many issues is significantly different than Governor Dean’s position. “Green for Dean” is an oxymoron.

[corporatewhore]

95. Kucinich Addressed the National Campus Greens Convention

And David Cobb (who is running for pres as green) said if kucinich got the ticket he would drop out raise funds tell all of his supporters to go to kucnich and to put his heart and soul into campaigning for him.
I believe nader wont run either

[Polemonium]

101. It's not a label

I'm green through and through, I recently lived in a town with a green mayor and many green council members. It was easy to be green there, and I think that is where we need to focus our efforts. If we were better organized we could have defeated Newsome easily in San Francisco. Anyway, recent events have led me to believe that we need to focus on the small races and stop wasting effort going after the big ring when we know it is currently out of reach. We also need to fight for IRV and proportional representation of some kind. I voted strategically for Nader last time in a state that Gore had easily. That obviously was not enough, so I'm working hard to see that Bush gets out of office, and Dean a candidate that is listening to the grass roots, and is supported by record amounts of small donations stands to take us in the right direction. Kucinich is great, I love his platform but ideas are not enough to win this election. Arnie was just elected governor; something a few years ago I would have argued was not a possibility. A green candidate was not even able to win in San Francisco against a near republican. Let's stop spitting in the ocean, get organized, and focus on the races we can win. Remember the Perot supporters that got Clinton into the White House, how far did that federal money get them when they pulled the magic percentage in the presidential election. Change comes slow; lets work the long-term plan. The alternative is another 4 years of Bush*. Green for Dean is far from an oxymoron, but greens doing anything that might help the snot nosed kid occupying the White House is more damaging. Dean is looking to get corporate taxes increased, and corporate control out of politics, and this campaign has the potential to allow him to avoid paying back all those big donations that paralyze so many other candidates in office. I'll go for the Kucinich or whomever when we have built a strong grass roots organization that is made up of 20-30% of the Americans, until then I'm going to help build a green house one brick at a time, and try to ensure that the whole house is not blown down by shrub in the meantime.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

91. Dean sets off my snake oil detector

He runs with the style of a populist and the policies of a suburban centrist. I fear that he shares Bill Clinton's greatest weakness (no, not lack of marital fidelity, but one that that is actually politically important), which is a lack of bedrock principles and a tendency to be easily swayed.

Clinton's health plan failed because he tried to please the insurance companies. His intentions of banning discrimination against gays in the military failed because he didn't want to offend the homophobes. He signed NAFTA because that's what the rich kids wanted.

Those are the types of vibes I get from Dean, and his record does nothing to assuage my fears. If he gets into the White House, he will be an improvement over Bush, but otherwise disappointing.

I intend to caucus for Dennis on March 2. We have the numbers to get 15% in the two Congressional districts that include the Twin Cities. If he drops out, my order of preference is Kerry, Mosely-Braun, Edwards, Gephardt, Clark, Dean, Lieberman. I place Clark slightly ahead of Dean, although not by much, because there is that tradition of an officer keeping his word. (I lived in the New York area when Sharpton was in his headline-grabbing heyday, so while I appreciate him as a spokesman, I would never trust him with actually governing anything.)

I will vote for the nominee, but if it's someone I'm not fond of, I'll limit my involvement in the presidential campaign to bumperstickers and voting and put my efforts into one of the local Congressional races.

[blm]

96. There are many who feel exactly as you do.

And I believe there are more of us. There is a good reason why the majority of Democrats are NOT jumping on the Dean bandwagon and you just voiced it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. May I add

that my mother (age 82 and a CSPAN junkie) likes Edwards and Gephardt and spontaneously told me after watching the Sunday debate that there's something about Dean that makes her uneasy.

[tinanator]

99. what took you so long?

flawlessly flawed logic, almost a perfect example. Im not even going to try to count the contradictions, red herrings or red flags. Can Dean even get in a neck and neck contest?