Dean Plans To Go On Offensive Against Clark

[incapsulated]

Dean called 'real Democrat'
Front-runner's strategies add boost from Bradley

Jon Kamman
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 6, 2004 12:00 AM


With former U.S. Sen. Bill Bradley's endorsement of presidential candidate Howard Dean today, the former Vermont governor's campaign is likely to emphasize that the front-runner is "a real Democrat" and more decisive than former Gen. Wesley Clark.

In a telephone conference call that reporters were invited by mistake to hook into, Dean's campaign staff spoke candidly about strategy surrounding the impending Bradley endorsement.

<snip>

"The Bradley message could be, like, (Dean) knew where he stood on the war, is still a Democrat, takes . . . positions, blah, blah, blah," the staffer said.

The next day, the speaker said, "surrogates" for Dean, both local and national, could "then hit Clark on the flip side of the argument: that he's indecisive, didn't know what party he's with, doesn't know his position on the war," she said.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0106dean-interview06.html

[maddezmom]

1. Clark and Dean- both getting ready for the battle

it was only a matter of time. :)

[incapsulated]

2. Yep n/t

[TrueAmerican]

3. The Dirty Tricks of the Dean campaign

will stop at nothing. Forecast for 2004 is they can and will go lower in the swamp.

Clark will give them HELL. Which they justly deserve.

[bowens43]

74. Dirty tricks?

How so? Clark not only flip-flopped on the war issue, he flip-flopped on 22 years of political philosophy. No one makes the 180 degree turn that Clark has made. He was lying then or he is lying now, either way, his motives and intentions are highly suspect. This needs to be pointed out repeatedly and as forcefully as possible during the primary season. There is no room for a 'new democrat' at the top of our party, especially one with a recent history of showering lavish praise on the current administration.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

105. Flip- flopping? Dean takes the award for master flip-flopper

I don't see any sites out there dedicated to Wesley Clark's waffling...
http://www.wafflepoweredhoward.com./


http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000622.html

"I would argue that Howard Dean has flip-flopped more times, on more issues, than any of the Dems running for president. It's a continuing problem that may ultimately come back to haunt his campaign. In fact, it's so bad I decided to make a list.

I'm not talking about Dean's mistakes or apologies. I don't care that Dean mysteriously called Latin America "the most important hemisphere in American history" last week. It's easy to overlook the fact that Dean, when asked last month if he supported gay marriage, said, "I never thought about that very much." It may not matter that Dean said Saddam Hussein's fall from power is "probably a good thing" earlier this summer. No one will remember that he falsely accused John Edwards of avoiding talk of his support of the Iraq war before an anti-war Dem audience in California.

I mean straight up, direct examples of Dean holding one position and then deciding he believes the opposite shortly thereafter. It's happened often enough the last couple of months for me to create...The Carpetbagger Report's Top 10 Howard Dean flip-flops (in no particular order)."

1. North Korea
2. Social Security retirement age
3. Public Financing and Campaign Spending Limits
4. U.S. trade standards
5. U.S. policy on the Cuban trade embargo
6. "Regime change" in Iraq
7. Death penalty
8. Repealing Bush's tax cuts
9. Troop deployment in Iraq
10. Civil liberties in a post-9/11 America


Google search: 3,140 sites
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=howard+dean+waffling&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=howard+dean+waffled

[TLM]

110. What is it about time that those who attack Dean can't comprehend?

"I don't see any sites out there dedicated to Wesley Clark's waffling..."

Yeah, because most of the Clark sites focus on his war crimes.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Clark+War+Crimes



If you change a position over 10 years based on changing circumstances... that's not flip flopping. If you change a position a week before you decided to run for president, or change positions the day after the poll numbers come back, that's a flip flop.

If you're raising $$ for re pukes in 2001 and saying how much you love and admire Reagan and Bush and what great leaders they are and how much courage and vision they have... then in 2003 you're claiming to be a democrat who wants to run for president... THAT'S a flip flop.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

131. He's flip-flopped on Iraq ALONE so many times within a few days

that one barely needs to use any other examples...

http://www.bobharris.com/kucinichdean.html
Opposed, with occasional tics: in August 2002, said he would support unilateral action if convinced Iraq had usable WMDs (source: Slate.com), a position he repeated in January 2003 (source: Los Angeles Times, 1/31/03, no longer online); in February said unilateral action could become "unavoidable," although, to his credit, he preferred UN intervention and was skeptical of Colin Powell's case (source: Salon.com); in March, demurred in conservative South Carolina that "it's hard to criticize the President when you've got troops in the field" (source: The State); shortly thereafter resumed vocal opposition, maintained to the present (source: DeanforAmerica.com)

http://george.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Feb/956.html

But Dr. Dean said in an interview that he would support a United States invasion of Iraq if it was approved by the United Nations.
"Action with the U.N. is where we should be aiming at right now," Dr. Dean said. "We should be going back and set a timeline with the U.N. for absolute disarmament. I've chosen 60 days. And then there would be military action."
And Dr. Dean said that he supported the central goal of many of the supporters of action against Iraq. "Look, Saddam has to be disarmed," he said in the interview. "Everybody has to understand that."

[BootinUp]

136. I disagree

I am not going to attack Dean.

But I take issue with your characterization of Clark as Flip Flopping because he was involved in a very minor way in politics back in 2001.

If he was actually a politician at the time you would have a point. But that clearly was not the case. His involvment was more of an expert advisor role where the purpose was NOT to be a player in politics.

[TLM]

108. Haven't you heard... anything but praise for Clark is a dirty trick.

Pointing out that he switched positions on the war and IWR so many times he needed to call Mary to help remind him which side he was on this week is a low down dirty trick.

[Clark Can WIN]

211. Haven't you heard? Anything less than worship of Dean is unacceptable

Even though both Dean and a few Dean supporters often mis characterize, distort and sometimes even lie about other candidates repeatedly in the hopes that someone will believe them?

[elixir]

122. Let the record speak

March of '03:

Dean repeated last week he would support war in Iraq without support from American allies or the United Nations "if Saddam is an immediate threat to the United States."

"If he has nuclear weapons, if he has a nuclear program that's significant or if he is giving weapons to terrorists, those constitute an imminent threat to the United States," he told The Des Moines Register. "I do not believe Saddam is an imminent threat."

[Jerseycoa]

76. Trippi-Tricks nt

[kerry-is-my-prez]

107. So now I guess Dean is the "establishment" candidate

interesting isn't it. Look for the Dean people to NOW come out with the "Establishment is good" spin.

[TLM]

112. Nope he's an established democrat.... unlike Clark.

Clark is not an established democrat... he's an established Republican.

"That's the kind of President Ronald Reagan was. He helped our country win the Cold War. He put it behind us in a way no one ever believed would be possible. He was truly a great American leader. And those of us in the Armed Forces loved him, respected him, and tremendously admired him for his great leadership."

[kerry-is-my-prez]

135. Sorry but Clark's much more Progressive on the Issues - THAT's what

should count. Dean is a "Progressive in name only."

[bowens43]

143. Clarks is more progressive?

Any evidence other then Clark's campaign rhetoric to support that assertion? Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld aren't exactly progressives but they certainly had Clark's support.

[TLM]

167. Clark has a progressive script...

but his history tells a different story.

[BootinUp]

140. poppycock

Clark was an individual with minimal involvement in domestic politics, who has voted for both tickets in the past and even explained why. Thats a long way from being established anything, maybe established free thinker might be a good way to describe it.

[bowens43]

146. You're right

Clark isn't an established Democrat. But that's what we've been telling you. He has shown extremely poor judgment in the past and is very likely to do so in the future. And as you point out he has absolutely no domestic credentials.

[BootinUp]

154. Lets let the voters decide

My post dealt with facts, your characterization of his judgment his your opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

As far as domestic credentials, again he has a resume, he has a platform, he has grassroots support, let the voters decide the rest.

[Turkw]

158. Voters? what! they have declared the race over, very democratic

Don't you think?

[bowens43]

147. oops

[jadesfire]

120. for all other candidates apparently

There are rumors going around that Dean canvassers in IA, NH, AZ, and NM are telling people that Kerry has cancer again and he is sick.

Anybody heard anything about that?

[TLM]

170. No but I did hear that Clark and Kerry supporters....

that are flooding message boards with bullshit stories to try and make up for running shitty campaigns.

[shivaji]

185. Let's face it -- only reason gen Clark is runnibg as a dem now is...

Karl Rove would not answer his calls. What else can explain this man's actions who is well known to possess a towering ego and unabating personal ambition, to suddenly make a turn from a life long republican into a democrat? I am just very leery of johnny come lately democrats who want the top-most job without having to prove their real agenda in ANY KIND OF POLITICAL POSITION.

With Dean, I am backing a man with solid democratic credentials, and whose actions I can trust. I am thankful he is way ahead of Clark.

[Clark Can WIN]

212. Well, first of all he's not way ahead, otherwise he wouldn't be

this DESPERATE. Secondly Dean can't be trusted any further than I could throw Candy Crowly underwater with a pre-existing hernia.

[Skwmom]

4. Politics by deception.

Dean has been doing this since Clark entered the race.

[bowens43]

75. Where is the deception?

Clark has been a democrat for a scant 3 months and has a verifiable history of supporting the very worst republican administrations. Where is the deception?

[Clark Can WIN]

213. Clark has voted Democrat for the last 12 years

And his stewardship in the armed services shows his heart to have been with the party longer than that.

I guess you'd rather have someone who gutted programs for the blind, wants to raise the retirement age to 70 and has a perfect score from the NRA. Maybe thats your kind of Democrat.

<snip>
During his tenure Dean instructed the legislature to cut Medicaid benefits because of increased costs. He said recipients would have to make sacrifices. This is a very different scenario from the one Dean portrayed to the Iowans.

Dean is the favorite of the Democrat lunatic liberals. Yet, a poll of Vermonters in October 2002 revealed that 56% rated Dean’s governorship as fair to poor, 49% disapprove of his candidacy for president, and only 34% would vote for him.

Vermonters must know something the rest of us do not.
http://www.americandaily.com/item/3892

[Mountainman]

5. I have only seen Clark attackers coming out with the short end

When ever I have seen or heard about someone attacking Clark, he has always handled it so well the the attacker ends up looking bad.

[Crunchy Frog]

6. Given this new

strategy, I hope no one whines when Clark hits back. Hey, maybe this will do for Dean, what similar behavior did for Kerry, Gephardt and Lieberman. One can only hope.}(

[JNelson6563]

13. Oh please!

No matter what tactics the General chooses to bring to this battle, I am sure his supporters will make him look like the rookie that he is.

Nobody can hold a candle to Clark supporters when it comes to attack! Nobody! Not even Clark!

Julie

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

189. I'm curious why it is OK for a Clark supporter to make sexist insults...

like referring to a female DUer in a demeaning way by calling her "sweet pea" yet if I were to refer to a female Clark supporter by a demeaning sexist nick name like that, I'd have my post deleted?

[Crunchy Frog]

24. Will you please tell me

when I have ever attacked any candidate, or else please stop lumping all Clark supporters together.

And I frequently notice you jumping into positive Clark threads, just to attack, so there seems to be a little bit of hypocracy there.

[JNelson6563]

177. mea culpa on omitting "some"

I usually remember to qualify that way because I know very well there are Clark supporters that my remarks do not apply to.

And I frequently notice you jumping into positive Clark threads, just to attack, so there seems to be a little bit of hypocracy there.

I've done this one time intentionally, care to share with me the additional posts that would constitute your use of the word "frequently"? Thanks.

Julie

[Turkw]

46. I only respond to the mis-information that Dean's supporters post

and to the supporters themselves. I have never attacked Dean, his statements, or his positions once. I have tried to post information where ever possible. However, the dirtier and the lower the tactics used against Wes Clark go, this may change. If you're camp is willing to burn bridges and poison the well to win the nomination, it only hurts OUR (all of us-Dean supporter, Clark supporters, Kerry supporter, etc.) chances against the real enemy- Bush and Rove.

It's sad to think that the official Dean campaign may sink to the level that some of his supporters here have- smear over issues.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[retyred]

209. Coming from a dean supporter

I take that as a compliment!


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[Democrats unite]

25. Trust me the first time Clark hits Dean..

We are going to have to get the cheese to go with the whine here.

[knight_of_the_star]

116. Sad, but true

The Dean people seem to think they're heavyweight boxers, but they only have a jaw of glass. They try to dish out, but they can't take it very well.

[windansea]

119. ka pow!!

[Clark4VotingRights]

208. Yup. How dare Clark defend himself!

Just lie down and take it like a man...General.

[jumptheshadow]

43. This might be entertaining

I don't give Dean much chance in a Clark vs. Dean mano a mano.

I'm popping the kettle corn for this one. :)

[Clark Can WIN]

215. Thanks

now I have to go make some popcorn.

[Clark4Prez]

7. Bring it on

I think the General can handle this. If he can't then he doesn't deserve the nomination.

Dean will find that Clark will not roll over for him like Gep and Kerry (Kerry was in the hospital when Dean attacked him, in his defense). It won't come off as whiny and tinny, he will hit back and Dean will be "Assman'd".

Trippi won't know what hit him.

[TLM]

117. They want Clark to fight....

It seems Clark supporters have no idea what strategy is afoot here.


This should be fun.


Bu Bye Wes "I love reagan" Clark.

[knight_of_the_star]

118. That sounds about right

When the general hits, he tends to do it in a fashion that resembles a full-battery artillery barrage.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

125. Let's see: 4 Star General, Rhodes Scholar vs. "whining" Gov. of tiny state

with poor speaking skills and a tendency to stick his foot in his mouth every time he opens it? Gee - wonder who will win THAT battle?

[bowens43]

149. Let's see established Democrat vs.

???????

[Turkw]

162. vs. hero, humanitarian, leader- not bad qualities for a Democrat

don't ya think

[TLM]

172. So showing civilians with DU rounds, and murdering journalists...

is humanitarian?

Kill 1500 civilians like Clark did with his bombing campaign and you're a humanitarian.

Kill 2000 civilians like Slobo had before the bombing campaign started, and you are a genocidal mad man.

Who knew only 500 dead civilians was the difference between hero and Hitler.

[oasis]

190. Many think that ending the ethnic cleansing was a good thing. Others don't

for various reasons. If the General becomes the nominee, bona fide pacifists will have to make a decision between Clark and PNACer Bush.

[Crunchy Frog]

200. Paul Wellstone

apparently thought it was a good idea, according to some information I've seen.

[Larkspur]

191. That "whiny" Gov from a small state

broke Bill Clinton's fundraising record twice in the same year. Clark couldn't do it.

Dean has the power, because his supporters entrust him with theirs.

[CWebster]

8. It isn't as if it isn't true

unlike attempts to paint mental pictures by unsavory comparisons with an incompetent Bush leaning on Cheney. No hidden motivations there---character assasination by association.

[Crunchy Frog]

26. That was a perfectly

valid analogy IMO. Much more subtle and effective than calling ones opponents "Bush lite".

If your boy wants to play dirty, I'm sure the General is more than up to it.

[CWebster]

35. LOL!

like it wasn't obvious at all....lol!

[retyred]

214. Your mad because Clark associated dean with

bush leaning on deans own role model for VP? It seems dean painted that comparison himself. I thought you'd be proud. dean was.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[incapsulated]

9. Well...

They are going to have to change this little plan now that they screwed up and let the press hear their strategy, heh. :)

[maddezmom]

12. isn't that the truth

why did they leak that bit of info out? to see what the reaction was ahead of time?

[incapsulated]

14. They didn't

They let the press in on a conference call by mistake:

The strategists ended their conversation when another reporter joined the conference, telling him, "I think you may have the wrong call-in number. This isn't a press call."

[Jerseycoa]

93. So reporters had to have the specific number to call

Fun.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

15. For which side?

The Republicans?

There is NO lie there, Clark is a recently declared Democrat with no record or standing in the party. Should this be something kept from concerned voters while they are fed image built around the fear factor?

[incapsulated]

21. The whole logic behind this

for those who didn't read the article, is that Dean's internal polls where showing that people found him indecisive. So they decided not only to prop him up, but to paint Clark with the criticism that Dean was getting.

[CWebster]

28. You mean like knowing which party you align yourself with

and what ticket you run on?

That kind of decisiveness?

[incapsulated]

33. Why don't you..

ask the Dean campaign staff? What were those internal polls that showed people were nervous about his indecisivness?

[CWebster]

38. Musta been the ones where they were afraid

he was indecisive about challenging Bush? Or was it the ones created by corporate media efforts to create gaffes and flip-flops, ala Gore's lies and exaggerations? Don't think that if your GI Joe gets a foothold that every side won't be in a position to crucify him if they so choose...

[Crunchy Frog]

42. Oh, he can do

gaffes and flip flops all by himself. He doesn't need the media's help for that.

[CWebster]

48. he needs the media to make them gaffes

like Gore's lies--while covering up across the board for the idiot punk who would be king.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. Yup..

blame everything on the media. Nothing like a president who won't take personal responsibility for his own words. Sort of like someone we all know...

[Kahuna]

99. Straight from the Bush/Rove playbook..

nt

[xultar]

20. Not nice. n/t

[HFishbine]

36. "Kerry a duplicitous, limp, warmonger"

Vile name-calling apparently is allowed.

[Renew Deal]

96. Dean said this?

Honest question...

[BootinUp]

11. I kinda think it'll work against Dean

I thought Dean was going to work on the image thing.
Best strategy for Dean is to go positive, but if he wants to be the mudslinger go for it.

[DancingBear]

16. Please do

The contrasts between the two candidates will be striking. This will do more for the Clark campaign than100 debates.

Whether Clark handles it with his usual "above the fray" demeanor or decides to show Dean for what he truly is it will be fun to watch. For us, anyway. :)

Be careful what you wish for, Governor...

[CWebster]

17. Sort of like

claiming Clark wouldn't be Cheney to Dean's Bush?


so far above the frey.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Oh, you mean like

Q: Who would be your model as a vice president?

A: Dick Cheney. It sounds like an odd thing to say because I don't agree with almost anything he says, but he's incredibly competent. He knows how government works.

[CWebster]

31. He is competent

he is incredibly competent. I got news for you---so was Hitler.

[returnable]

52. Competent is one thing...

...saying he'd be the ideal model for a VP is quite another :hi:

[carpediem]

39. who said this?

I am just curious i hadn't seen the quote before. Thanks.

[Crunchy Frog]

44. Howard Dean

said it. Unfortunately I don't know how to post a link to the interview. I'm sure someone else can.

[carpediem]

47. thanks n/t

.

[dave29]

79. Clark has had some nice things to say about

Cheney and Bush and Rice and Rumsfeld as well.

[Tinoire]

138. There's a HUGE difference between saying that Cheney is competent

and saying you admire the person, like the person and would work with them again.

[Larkspur]

58. You're right

Dean will come across as a longtime Democrat who could get results. Clark will be portrayed as a civilian political neophyte and inexperienced civilian political campaigner, who will be trashed by Bush & Rove.

Dean has already defeated the well funded Reichwing once -- his last reelection bid for governor. Clark has never run a civilian political campaign before and his poor performance so far demonstrates that he is no match for Bush & Rove.

[unfrigginreal]

18. Good!

After taking cheap shots from the Clark campaign for the last 3 months via Carville, Begala, Pinella etc. I'm glad to see Dean fight back.

[SahaleArm]

23. LOL - On what planet? n/t

[jmaier]

137. LOL

Carville and Begala are in the Clark campaign? They haven't had much of a positive word to say about him. Frankly, they haven't really given much air time to his campaign at all.

[BeyondGeography]

22. Go ahead, Howard

I think the General has faced down some slightly more intimidating people in his life than Howard Dean.

Plus, Clark now has one of the most progressive tax plans in the race and Howard's plan betrays who he really is: a fiscal conservative with the soul of a Rockefeller Republican. There's precious little to demonstrate, policy-wise, that Dean is more of a Democrat than Clark, or anybody else in the race, for that matter.

Clark can also appeal to those in the party who are sick of partisanship and who want a candidate who might actually be able to work with people from across the political spectrum. Dean's a divider, Clark's a uniter.

Oh, and might we mention the so-called "resume gap."? You know, the total absence of defense and foreign policy experience in a candidate who will be running against the all that 9/11 wartime imagery. You don't even have to point out "electability," just stick to the facts.

One guy has some substance here, and it's not Howard Dean.

[artr2]

37. Right, and it true that the general has experience

but as a military general. Not a politician but as a general, where you have someone saluting and saying "Yes, Sir" to every little thing you say.Having no experience running a public government. Having less than 6 months being a democrat after speaking in glowing terms of shrub and the criminals that comprise this administration. And you talk about substance, I can't wait to see the bush campaign ad showing a clip of the general praising bush and and announcer with a voice over saying even the "democrat" running against bush thinks he is doing a wonderful job. And that IS A FACT!

[BeyondGeography]

41. Just as Howard said

George Bush was doing a great job on the War on Terror (7/14/02). The Bush campaign can run that quote, too.

Attacking a military man who was doing his part in a time of national crisis and saying he basically wanted the country to succeed has virtually no upside for Bush. It might have some legs for Howard, but this is an old story, and Clark is on the TV every day ripping the Bush Administration more effectivey than any of our candidates. See Hardball last night? You'll never see a better defense of Clinton, you know, the DLC Democrat. People will figure it out.

And as for lack of political experience, if you don't think it takes political skills to build a case for war, which Clark single-handedly did in Kosovo, you're mistaken.

Howard has been attacking his opponents' supposed lack of ideological fidelity from Day One in this race. It's a miracle that a DLC Governor like Dean has gotten away with it up until now. His rhetorical bluffs have led a lot of Democrats to despise him. It will be a pleasure to see him get his comeuppance. I'm sure the General will do it well, and with a smile.

[bowens43]

139. a uniter not a divider?

Where have we heard THAT before? Two ends of the same worm.

You really CAN fool some of the people all of the time....

[demnan]

27. This isn't really news

sounds like some aide just talking. Let's at least wait till the candidates do something before we attack them, shall we?

[incapsulated]

29. This was a confernce call within his own campaign staff

Talking Bradley and polls and national strategy.

But sure, he could be hiring people to have conference calls about strategy they never plan to carry out, I guess.

It wasn't meant for the press, they got in on it by mistake.

[maddezmom]

32. had to read that part twice myself

missed it until you pointed it out. :)

[incapsulated]

34. heh..

I'm only being focused because I started this thread. ;)

[janx]

103. I tried to point that out...But nobody was listening.

This kind of thing is only going to get worse.

[Larkspur]

40. I'm sharpening my claws in preparation to fight the General

The Dean Campaign is right -- Dean is a real Democrat with a proven record as one. Clark wasn't even a Democrat after he tossed his hat into the Dem Prez primary race. Even my friend from work who lives in NH says that Clark is a Repuke pretending to be a Dem.

[JVS]

45. My brother, who until recently was an independent doesn't trust Clark

[Turkw]

49. Can you please give me the official list and litmus tests to determine who

is a real Democrat? The Democratic party has gotten its ass kicked with Former Democrats like Giuliani and Reagan. I'll take a former INDEPENDENT over a life long Democrat like Zell Miller any day.

If they only issue that can be raised is purity, you guys are in real trouble.

One last thought- do you know how repugnant the idea that there is some sort of a class system to the Democratic party is? This is a big tent party, you might want to think about what that means. There are NO SECOND CLASS CITIZANS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!!!!

[Larkspur]

53. For starters, Dean began his Democratic life working on Jimmy Carter's

re-election bid in 1980. Even though he was from wealthy origins, he was humble enough to do the grunt work in that campaign. His work during that campaign and his ability to relate to both the Carter and Kennedy supporters attracted the attention of Esther Sorrell, a former senator and godmother of Vermont Democratic politics whose home doubled as a political salon in the late 1970s. She was the one who got Dean elected as Dem Comm chair of his county and from that seat he launched his bid as state rep and lieutenant governor as a Democrat.

Dean has a verifiable history as a Democrat. Clark's Democratic credentials are suspect and if they exists at all are not as well developed as Dean's.

[robbedvoter]

57. Well, not quite, Prior HD political actions were GOP:

http://robbedvoter.forclark.com/story/2003/12/4/15549/3307

[LuminousX]

63. When he was 16....

[Turkw]

133. Still, the taint of liking a Republican, Not Pure enough

Doesn't matter how long ago for some of you, so this should kill their support for Dean. I, however, don't hold to the stupid idea of purity so I can easily vote for the Democratic nominee, even if it is DEAN.

I am purer in the belief that our party is a party for every one, not an elite. Interesting, a lot of the Dean camp arguments against Clark are that of elitism. Very interesting, to believe in second class citizens in the Democratic party.

[bowens43]

151. Huh?

Clark was offering words of support to the CURRENT administration in 2002. None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Turkw]

157. On Afghanistan, and I happen to agree that we should have stayed the cours

there,beyond going after Al Quada, it was unfinished business from the Reagen and Bush I administrations. We need to follow through and help that country, not go for the corporate colonization of Iraq.

[Turkw]

128. You have to have worked for Carter to be pure enough to run, What else?

[Crunchy Frog]

59. Yeah, if the Republicans

had insisted on being such purists as we Democrats do, they never would have gotten Reagan. If Clark can do for the Dem party what Reagan did for the Pubs, and I think he can, then I welcome him with open arms.

Insistence on purity is going to end up marginalizing, and ultimately killing this party.

[Larkspur]

88. If Clark really wanted to be taken seriously as a Democrat then

he should have joined the party sooner, not praised Bush & Co. in 2001, and run for governor of Arkansas in 2000, which the Dem party offered him. This election opportunity would have given Clark experience campaigning in the civilian political realm and if he won, he would have had the opportunity to prove that he could govern well and win re-election BEFORE running for President. Of course, he could also have lost the election or if he won the governorship, he could have proven that he was a terrbile civilian politican leader and his Prez dreams would have gone down the drain. Maybe the latter was why Clark opted out of that great opportunity to prove his civilian political abilities -- he knew that he was incompetent in that realm.

[Turkw]

141. Clark had NO political aspirations before Bush's foolish handling of

just about everything and the terrible decision to go to war unnecessarily. He is running against Bush, not the DLC, not the other candidates, against the real enemy. All the other candidates have been in politics for a LONG time not, vote for a real outsider-Wes Clark.

Your charges are empty and hateful, the kind of think I hear from A lot of Dean supporters. You have the power to be positive and objective if you choose to be.

[Larkspur]

187. Wes Clark is not an outsider

He's very much a Washington insider -- general and consultant for a lobbying firm that lobbies for the military industrial complex.

I don't believe that Clark, who was a registered Independent, entered the Democratic race to just run against Bush. If he wanted to just run against Bush, he didn't need to run as a Democrat. He could have run as an Independent, which is what he was prior to switching to Dem after he entered the race. But he knew that he couldn't raise the cash necessary to compete against Bush on his own, so he was assuming that the Democrats would rush over to his campaign because he was a former general and he'd have the Dem Party's war chest at his disposal, but a lot of Democrats didn't buy his charade. Dean's supporters were a lot sharper than he thought and the general made foolish mistakes upon entry into the race, like flip flopping on the IWR vote.

Democrats can't afford to have Clark as the nominee or VP. He's a terrible campaigner and Rove would steamroll him. Dean has already been battle tested by the Reichwing and he defeated them once. Dean can defeat them again.

[JVS]

89. Rubbish! Reagan established himself as a solid Republican starting in1962

When he started affiliation with the Republican party
1964: Co-Chair of California Republicans for Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona for President
1966: elected Governor of California
1976: lost to Ford in the Primaries
1980: elected President
I was looking at the Reagan timeline

You know what I don't see? I don't see "Reagan praises Carter at Democratic fundraiser in 1977"

[Turkw]

144. What I don't see is the Republicans throwing away a person because that

person didn't pass some none existant check list to be allowed to be a Republican.

[jumptheshadow]

51. Forty percent of Dean's record is sealed

eom

[Larkspur]

54. And Dean has allowed an independent judge to review those records

and release the ones he/she thinks won't hurt constituents.

And considering that Dean was re-elected 5 times as governor, must mean that the people of Vermont were at the very least satisfied with his job performance. Unlike Clark, Dean server as governor of Vermont for 11.5 years and did so as a bonafide Democrat.

[jumptheshadow]

55. Dean said he was sealing those records for political reasons

And has changed his story ever since.

The dispatch of the records to the judge is a stalling tactic. If he wins the nomination -- a big if -- and those records contain something explosive, it could blow up in our faces during the GE.

[Larkspur]

56. Don't you think that private citizens have rights?

Dean's strategy is fair because if he does anything with those records, he'll be criticized for still hiding things. By turning it over to an independent source, Dean is playing fair.

[jumptheshadow]

82. Of course I do

However, it turns out that there have been sensitive records on private individuals released by the Dean administration. Those were the ones that had nothing to do with his political career, like the letter from the woman who wrote him about her depression and the couple who told him what medications they take.

At the very least he can release the Vermont nuke plant records.

No AIDS patients or outing of gays there, right?

[creativelcro]

70. ouchy. In a few weeks we'll see who's gonna beg

to be VP

[Crunchy Frog]

201. well, it's not

going to be Clark. He's already made it very clear that he doesn't want to plug Dean's "hole", or be Dean's "dick".

[neverforget]

124. "real Democrat" by whose definition?

[Crunchy Frog]

202. By people

who would send our party off to oblivion rather than have it sullied by impurity.

[hope42mro]

50. visit www.clarkmyths.com/myth5.html

it explains the "Clark is a Republican" myth

[dave29]

65. There is no myth

he's just a guy who happened to vote for Nixon and Reagan and Bush Sr., that's all. Then he happened to vote for Clinton and Gore, before suddenly saying nice things about Bush Jr & Administration.

Sounds like he always goes where the winds blow.

[elixir]

126. Clark praised Bush & Co. for efforts in Afghanistan, not Iraq

[bowens43]

78. Myth?

Are you familiar with his voting record and very recent praise for the current administration. Spin it all you like, the evidence points to a very pronounced lean to the right.

[JPJones]

61. Terry, make him stop!

Dean's a big meanie, Terry.

BTW, when are the big Dukakis and McGovern endorsements?

[dave29]

67. Mary, Help!

We can do this all day

[robbedvoter]

72. Yeah, Nagourney sure is proud of that, and you are happy too

So far we got Nagourney to issue 3 retractions on Clark and he's still editorializing venomously. And your point is?

[robbedvoter]

71. You won't hear Clark whining about it. Never did in his life.

Got to where he is the hard way, no silver spoon.
I, on the other hand I am perfectly entitled to point out the thin skinned hypocrisy of the candidate that actually took opponents' ads off the net and did ask for protection (Terry, Gore, etc), going about sliming away...
Maybe, as he told Newsweek, he doesn't know what mean Bradley is planning...

[dave29]

77. I'm so glad you know

Clark has never whined a day in his life, and has had a perfect career without any missteps at all (since he always waited to see where the winds were blowing) - I'm sure maybe he has a flaw or two in there, maybe somewhere, if you look hard enough.

Dean asked for the party to try to tone down the attacks - we're wasting money attacking each other. Clark is the one who said yesterday he's going on the offensive against Dean.

So, here we go. Sad, but here we go.

[robbedvoter]

81. Clark said what again? I don't remember any such declaration of war

Unless cutting taxes is offensive to tax increasers that is.

[Crunchy Frog]

84. "Clark is the one who said yesterday..."

Can you provide a reference to that. I would be interested in seeing it.

[Jerseycoa]

92. I heard Clark say yesterday

He's too busy running for president to worry about Howard Dean's campaign. I didn't hear what you heard, Dave.

[dave29]

113. I'll take credit for my bad here

Could have sworn I read an article yesterday in which Clark advisors talked about going after Dean (which I'm sure they have). Can't find it - and I've been searching for a bit.

May have just been reading too many DU attacks against my guy ;) anyhow - my apologies - I can't find it.

[Jerseycoa]

132. No Prob :)

[robbedvoter]

62. If the party of Trafficant, Miller & Koch is too good for Clark, I am too

good for it - that's for sure.
The guy who championed Reagan's tax cuts (as senator went to the House to lobby for it), wantys to slander the guy who wants to undo the mostruosity by saying Clark is nor democrat enough? Karl would be proud.
And, I'd like to know, is HD still feeling like Job, or has he recovered? (just showing I care)

[bowens43]

80. How is that slander?

Clark should be welcomed to the party but should have to earn his stripes. There should be no free pass, especially for someone who has spoken so highly of the idiot and his evil minions.

[robbedvoter]

83. Earn his stripes? Whaaa? I am speecless!

Are we talking Aspen stripes? Enron stripes? Raising Soc security retirement age stripes? Worst security - 9.11 was unavoidable stripes? I found jesus on Christmas stripes? What kind of arrogant condescendent attitude is that?
How dare you?

[bowens43]

129. We're talking about spending some time a s a Democrat

before demanding the top spot. Three months just isn't long enough.
How dare I? How dare that republican supporting , bush praising , flip flopping product of 30 years of military indoctrination have the audacity to suggest that he should get the top spot in our party after participating for less the 3 months?

[Turkw]

159. How about taking a bullet, or four for your country, how about standing

up to ethnic cleansing against the wishes of the Pentagon, winning- without a single American casualty, and then taking the political back lash with out whining. How about a career focused on serving the country with no regards to politics, simply trying to do good when he could. He supported minorities and women in the military, helped educate the children of soldiers, used war ONLY as a last resort.

I'll take this Democrat any day of the year!

[janx]

64. This sounds like a big dose of gossip to me.

"governor's campaign is likely to emphasize..."


"In a telephone conference call that reporters were invited by mistake to hook into,"


Etc.

[creativelcro]

66. telephone conferences are dangerous...

[Kahuna]

104. They are. You never know who's in the room at the other end..

listening in.

[democratreformed]

68. Wonder what "surrogates" will be used?

Might be kind of interesting to see.

[unfrigginreal]

73. Well we know it won't be Carville or Begala

they already have a gig.

[Jerseycoa]

69. "surrogates" for Dean

Well, they've already had a lot of practice in taking pot-shots.

[Clark4VotingRights]

199. Maybe we should follow Dean's lead and call Terry McAuliffe

And beg him to make Dean cease and desist with the attacks.

[TexasSissy]

86. He's scared of Clark?

Interesting.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

87. What a Rookie Move

I really do think the reporters dialing in was an accident, and not planned. I'm glad they telegraphed it; Clark will be more than ready to deal with Dean's dirt.

DTH

[KittyWampus]

90. This Is My Favorite Primary Thread EVER

Incapsulated debutes yet another great Clark graphic AND points out yet another blunder by Dean's campaign.

Robbedvoter debutes slogan- Clark won't doctor the truth AND uses the DANCING BANANA emoticon. I LOVE the Dancing Banana.

Dean supporters are sputtering.

And to think I was pissed this morning cause the NYTimes put Clark's radical new Progressive Tax Proposal in an article with Kerry's something or other rather than feature it in its own column.

[maddezmom]

91. needs to be bookmarked! :)

I love the dancing banana!!!

[Jerseycoa]

94. Thanks for the reminder, Mom ;)

[democratreformed]

100. Yeah, thanks from me too.

I had already saved the article.

[KittyWampus]

95. I Actually Watch It For A Minute Or So

whenever it pops up on a thread... :D

[incapsulated]

204. Thanks!

I don't start threads often, when I looked at the number of posts when I got home I nearly fell over, I'm normally a "Thread Killer", heh. ;)

[Kahuna]

97. Dean has waaaay more flip flops than Clark. Lieberman..

Kerry and Gephardt is already pointing them out. :evilgrin:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

98. Oh so now Dean is the ESTABLISHMENT candidate????

My head is spiining. It's hard to keep up with that guy....

[mzmolly]

101. "PARANOIA WILL DESTROYA"

This is speculation friends. Let's not get the undies in a bundie just yet.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Not Speculation AT ALL

It was the Dean strategists getting cold-busted after making a rookie mistake. This is like Bush forgetting the mic was on at that event where he called Adam Clymer a major-league asshole.

The Dean campaign might well abort this ill-conceived tactic, now that the cat is already out of the bag, but it's sure not for lack of planning it.

DTH

[mzmolly]

109. "Dean" did not "PLAN" jack.

These were 'political strategies' being tossed around.

If you think Clark's campaign is 'really' taking the high road I've got some swamp land in ....

Clark is giving the appearance of staying above the fray, and he's letting his foot soldiers do the dirty work. I admit, it's a brilliant strategy on their part. But the ex-deaniacsforclark movement and the like, are a direct result of the *vibes* put out by the Clark campaign.

It's politics babe ;)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

114. There's a Difference Between Grassroots Supporters and the Campaign Itself

No matter how you might like to believe otherwise.

This was the campaign's strategists, and they got cold-busted. Clark's campaign has indeed been above-the-fray, in both appearance and in fact. I'm sorry the fact that your candidate has sunk into the mud numerous times apparently has caused you to try to bring the other candidates down to that level as well, in some bizarre effort to establish "mud parity" or something. Because that sort of tactic just plain sucks. People who choose to engage in such tactics are engaging in behavior that is short-sighted, dishonest and overly fanatical, IMO. I hope you choose not to do it.

DTH

[mzmolly]

142. Baloney DTH. Clark said in salon recently "Dean can't win"

guess where I've heard that before :eyes: and since. Clark is campaigning in a typical manner, he's just got less to criticize as he has no domestic experience. He's also doing less of the 'dirty' work himself. That's what Generals do, they delegate. ;)

[KittyWampus]

207. Clark NEVER Said Dean Can't Win- That Was The Authors Words NOT CLARK'S

Nowhere's in that article did Clark say Dean can't win.

If you don't like the words the author used- take it up with him...
but Please, stop spreading lies about what Clark did or did not say.

[TLM]

176. As there is a difference between tossing around ideas...

and Dean planing to attack Clark.


Just because some campaign staffers talked about ideas for addressing Clark's recent attacks on Dean, that's hardly the same as saying Dean is going after Clark.

But more likely than not this was simply to get the Clark folks worried and reactionary... and it seems to have been very effective.

[Kahuna]

102. I just sent this story to the Clark campaign....

I also suggest they counter it by doing ads, that while critical of Bush, subliminally paint Dean with the same divisive, extreme partisan brush.

[LoneStarLiberal]

111. Moving Center on Foreign Policy Would Be A Bad Choice

Personally, I'd LOVE IT if Dean's campaign tried to come into the center on the issue of foreign policy...at least for a little bit.

Dean would get absolutely thrashed trying to "go center" on foreign policy on Clark, Kerry, Edwards, or Lieberman before the primaries.

He ought to "dance with the one that brung'em." Stick with appealing to Democratic outrage and general political malaise and alienation; so it's not netting the big returns in terms of Democratic support that it did previously? Everyone is worse off if Dean tries to move to the center on foreign policy.

[dave29]

121. Does being in the "center" on foreign

policy mean supporting preemptive wars? If that's the litmus test, I'm pretty sad for our country.

Otherwise, Dean's foreign policy is exactly the mainstream.

[Crunchy Frog]

203. Dean's foreign policy

positions are pretty much identical to Clark's, which is not surprising since Dean consulted with Clark on foreign policy quite a bit before Clark entered the race.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

115. Clark vs. Dean

It's starting.

This is going to be horrible, no matter who you support.

[dave29]

123. agreed

and agreed

[democratreformed]

130. Shuffleboard, dave?

I agree too. I sure am dreading it too. I still admire you, by the way.

Edit: I forgot to smile :)

[dave29]

163. hehe

how about badmitton ;)

[elixir]

145. I disagree, I think it's going to be great!

[Turkw]

150. It doesn't have to be, Clark has a tax plan, Dean is comming up with some

new tax stuff- this is GREAT. I, a Clark supporter, want to see that Dean comes up with. I hope it is inovative. This is the kind of debate and race we want. The new ideas that come out all the camps can help the Democrats and the country for years. Let's focus on issues importaint to the country folks. We are Democrats here, let's come up with stuff to help and lead the country. We are the best at it.

[democratreformed]

153. Great positive way to look at it.

Thanks.

[dave29]

161. I'm glad you see it this way

it is a very glass-half-full approach. We should be arguing policy, not "gaffes" or playing "gotcha". Character as well as leadership are in as issues for me, though. In a two man race it almost seems inevitable, especially with little policy difference. I like both of these men. There are reasons along these lines that I don't want Clark to be President yet, but would be perfectly happy for him to be VP. That those in power don't see the perfect opportunity for uniting the party is making me, well, lets say, a little angry.

I'm all for new ideas, etc - but this campaign is about reversing the damage of GWB - and the absolutely necessary change in party leadership we need in order to do this. Having seen Dean lead - and watched Clark's maneuverings for well over a year now, I am comfortably settled on Dean as my guy to fight the good fight. It has been tearing me to bits to see Clark so adamantly opposed to being on the ticket - I'm glad he's his own man, and a war hero, and a super-genius and supposedly has Clinton's support (which just makes this much more of a mess), but he just doesn't do it for me for a variety of reasons I don't want to have to bring up any more than I already have.

A two man race will most likely force me into attack mode, and in the words of the great philosopher, the Hulk, you guys won't like me when I'm :mad:

[BootinUp]

164. good idea!

I agree wholeheartedly.

[zulchzulu]

127. Dean is already pretty offensive

So you mean he's going to attack Clark too?

Oh wait, I thought he wasn't for attacking the oher candidates....

[democratreformed]

134. ROTF-LMAO

:) :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

148. ONLY if it's HIM who's being attacked....then it's baaaaaaad!

:puke:

[Nashyra]

155. It's been coming to this for awhile

Personally I think it will hurt Dean in the long run if he is the candidate, it will help Clark because his message will start to become front page news. I don't think that the Gore/Bradley endorsements help, these two men were losers even if Gore did get the most votes. Gore should have fought harder for the right of everyones vote to count.

[Kahuna]

160. He's not. Like bush, he will have surrogates do the attacking..

nt

[edzontar]

152. Clark supporters should be happy...

Since this means--if true--that Dean considers your guy a major adversary.

[democratreformed]

156. We are definitely happy.

I even started to post a new thread entitled "I'm so thrilled that our candidate is the target of so many attacks."

When I began to look at it that way, it became much easier to accept.

:)

[dave29]

165. However,

I haven't seen much Clark attacking from Dean today ;)

Edit to add: Maybe tomorrow?

[democratreformed]

169. Maybe

:) :)

Edit to add: Or maybe they'll just play Scrabble.

[Kahuna]

166. Team Clark Rapid Response to Dean Strategery..

:evilgrin:

http://clark04.com/press/release/154/

Little Rock - Yesterday, the Dean campaign inadvertently revealed to reporters its secret strategy to discredit General Clark. The strategy was reported in today's Arizona Republic (read the article here).
As the Republic reports, the Dean camp plans to use Bill Bradley's endorsement to counter the perception among New Hampshire voters - apparently evident in the Dean polling - that Governor Dean is "indecisive," and they plan to use both former Senator Bradley and other surrogates to attack General Clark.

Clark Campaign Communications Director Matt Bennett responded to this report:

"The Dean camp's secret back-room plotting to have Bill Bradley and others attack Wes Clark isn't a bit surprising. Governor Dean seems to like others to do his heavy lifting - just last week Howard Dean asked Democratic Party Chairman Terry McAuliffe to protect him from the criticisms of his rivals. The fundamental difference between Governor Dean and General Clark is that Howard Dean is a politician, and Wes Clark is a leader."

"Wes Clark has run a war, making life and death decisions every day. If the Dean Campaign wants to have a debate about decisiveness, we're ready."

[maddezmom]

168. it's heating up

:evilgrin:

[Kahuna]

178. Who says, Team Clark has no interaction with his supporters?

WRONGO!

[BootinUp]

173. Clark is getting pretty good at this

:hi:

[democratreformed]

174. Great job, team n/t

[dave29]

179. Clark has only discredited himself

on leadership. Sure, he has been a great military leader, despite getting fired for some reason. But it sure took him some time to decide:

1) he was a Democrat
2) he was going to run
3) where he stood on the War
4) whether or not to listen to his grassroots supporters
5) whether or not to debate on several occasssions
6) who his advisors should be.

Dean has won 10 campaigns in a row, and leads in fundraising, grassroots support, most polls, and is running a national campaign rather than a strategic "we entered the game late" campaign. Everyone, including Clark have followed Dean's lead in trying to build an internet campaign. Dean has made unpopular decisions that threatened his own life and the life of his family - but they were the right decisions. He may not have been on the frontlines in Vietnam, but he was on the frontlines in healthcare, form his experiences as a doctor to leading his state to the best record in the United States.

I'd love to continue our discussion on leadership, boldness, and risk-taking.

[Kahuna]

180. Clark is doing fabulously considering his late start...

It took Dean two years to raise that 40m. The fact that Dean is intimidated by a candidate in the race for a little over 3 months speaks volumes.

[dave29]

181. It took Dean

1 year to raise 40+ million - a new record for any Democratic candidate. The vast majority of it came in the last 6 months. And from over 250k supporters.

Where is Clark's money coming from?

And re: intimidation... Dean is running against 9 other folks and Bush. I'd hardly call it intimidation, rather, I'd call it campaigning.

[maddezmom]

184. people like me that sat out until the Wes got in the race

my husband and I both maxed out. :)

[dave29]

192. that's great

but most Dean supporters have not maxed out (including myself) - and can continue to contribute up until the real deal since we opted out.
Rather than be pounded all spring and summer long, we can fight back and reframe the debate in a strategic way against Bushco.

[BootinUp]

188. Me

I have contributed what I could afford.

Seriously, I think you'll be surprised when his numbers are released. I expect the average contribution to be a little higher but still comparable to Deans.

[SEAburb]

182. That is why Dean had to add five more people to his

campaign staff in 'zona. Dean fears the Wild Wild Wes.

[dave29]

183. Or,

Dean is playing to win - and has the resources to do it?

[SEAburb]

186. Yes, those resources Dean said would be used only against Bush

A man of his word not.

[dave29]

194. Excuse me?

I don't recall him saying that - and even if he did - I wouldn't agree with it. We are playing to win - and nationally. Another area in which Dean leads. Has Clark gone to Utah? Twice? Nope. Dean is connecting with grassroots across the country, because he means to win.

[janx]

193. Back room plotting?

Reporters were eavesdropping on a campaign strategy phone call!

(If it even happened.)

[incapsulated]

206. woo-hoo!

"Wes Clark has run a war, making life and death decisions every day. If the Dean Campaign wants to have a debate about decisiveness, we're ready."


Let's get ready to ruuuuuumble! :)

[SEAburb]

171. Real Dr. vs Real Leader

I'll take the Leader.

By the way who is the real Dean? Is he the liberal Dean, the progressive Dean, the moderate Dean, or the centrist Dean? Does it just depend on who he is pandering to at the time.

[dave29]

175. bwahahah

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the Republican audiences Clark spoke to recently who they think the real Dean is? Or maybe some of the military industrial folks Clark lobbied for - they might know the real Dean. Perhaps Clark himself who has experience being all over the political landscape voting for Nixon and Reagan and Bush Sr - and the Clinton and Gore, but then praising the administration of Bush Jr - could shed some light on the real Dean.

I hope so, because I certainly can't figure Dean out!

[BobbyJay]

195. Dean will sow his own fate if he does this

[adamrsilva]

196. Well, Clark has been on the offensive too

It's pretty clear that it's a battle between them.

[Kahuna]

197. But, Clark doesn't hide behind surrogates. And Clark ..

doesn't say, 'voters perceive me as wishy washy so I'm going to get the attention off me by smearing my opponent.' See the difference?

[dave29]

205. do you really want to get into

a discussion of surrogates and Clark? I think it's pretty safe to say surrogates of Clark (and others) have been doing their damndest to spread the unelectability argument against Dean. Yes, they are just doing their job (as are Dean's campaign strategists). Until we actually hear these two attack each other directly, we should probably reserve judgment - and weigh their arguments on their merit.

[Clark4VotingRights]

198. So that's what Bradley is signing on for.

To be Dean's trigger man.
Very classy of Dr. Dean.
Not.

[Clark Can WIN]

210. I AM SHOCKED I TELLYOU SHOCKED

Who would ever expect Howard to behave like a lying little snake?

Getting a little hot in the kitchen Howard?

[dave29]

216. uncalled for

There has been no attack against Clark. And why call him a lying little snake?